Total Posts:341|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

The Right to Self-Defense

ironmaiden
Posts: 456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 1:09:43 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
It came to my realization long ago that people don't believe in the right to self-defense anymore. This is a very sad, sad, truth. Evidence to prove my theory is California. In California, you are not allowed to defend yourself from a burglar unless you are absolutely in fear for your life. But what does this mean? Because I would be in fear for my life if someone broke into my house, but apparently that isn't good enough for witches like Dianne Feinstein. In fact, society is so @ss-backwards that burglars can sue the home-owner over getting hurt in the process of burglarizing that home.

My question to you is this: under what circumstances do you have the right to defend yourself? Now, I only ask this because this is a tense situation today, and I want to see how many fvckheads disagree with self defense. I have my answer and that is this: if someone is threatening to harm you, you should take action. If someone has broken into your home, you should take action. The result? A lot less break-ins and acts of violence. Simple as that.

Otherwise, go ahead and rely on the cops. Hopefully they arrive in time. Or just don't defend yourself at all. Let the bad guy get you, because that's what politicians want.
"I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire six shots or only five?' Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being that his is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question. 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?"
Jack212
Posts: 572
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 1:33:29 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I will respond with lethal force against a guy if he:

- Tries to kill me.

- Makes romantic/sexual advances towards me.

- Threatens or hits me.

- Touches my stuff.

- Touches my girls.

- Slut-shames my girls.

- Coughs or spits in my food.

- Calls me a homo.

- Sticks chewing gum under my desk.

I will respond with lethal force against a girl if she:

- Tries to kill me.

- Is not somebody I find attractive, and tries to make sexual advances towards me.

- Attempts to do me serious bodily harm.

- Accuses me of raping her.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 1:13:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Are you suggesting that a debate over what is an acceptable use of deadly force in reference to defense has no merit?

Let me ask you a few questions:
1. If a burglar is unarmed, see you are home, and tries to flee, should you be allowed to kill/shoot them? Were you defending yourself?
2. Same scenario, but doesn't flee until he sees your gun.
3. If you arrive home and there are burglars in your home and no one else is home (a known fact), can you rush in and shoot them?
4. Is it defense to shoot someone on your property anywhere, like on the lawn?
5. Is it acceptable to shoot someone multiple times, when the first shot incapacitated them?
My work here is, finally, done.
thett3
Posts: 14,334
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 1:30:32 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 1:13:53 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Are you suggesting that a debate over what is an acceptable use of deadly force in reference to defense has no merit?

Let me ask you a few questions:
1. If a burglar is unarmed, see you are home, and tries to flee, should you be allowed to kill/shoot them? Were you defending yourself?

Depends..do they have any of your property with them? If they do, you definitely have the right to get it back. If not I'm unsure

2. Same scenario, but doesn't flee until he sees your gun.

Same as above

3. If you arrive home and there are burglars in your home and no one else is home (a known fact), can you rush in and shoot them?

Of course you can. If they dont want to be shot they shouldn't be taking other peoples property

4. Is it defense to shoot someone on your property anywhere, like on the lawn?

If they're trying to steal or damage your property. You need to be careful not to harm neighbors though but I dont see how where on your property the shooting occurs matters unless it could hurt someone else.

5. Is it acceptable to shoot someone multiple times, when the first shot incapacitated them?

Ehh probably not but I would struggle to condemn people for it as it's often hard to tell
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Beverlee
Posts: 721
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 1:52:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Hmmm.... obviously, there are times when your body will just defend itself against harm. Fire-hot; fight, flight or freeze; anger reflex; etc. Very few people will try to resist this defensive safety switch.

But I think we should not defend ourselves against people that want to harm us most of the time. I think that this sort of thing actually invites attack. Being more aggressive and creating an environment of aggression does not calm aggression - it just temporarily suppresses it. We need to change the paradigm.

If someone wants to insult me, I am not going to defend myself. (I might at first, but I will eventually get composure and stop. I would prefer to be attacked then to hurt an attacker.)

I never use a bike chain, even though I can NOT afford a new bike right now. If someone wants to steal it, then ok. I am never going to defend my things.

I don't lock the door to my apartment unless I am home. I don't even shut the windows (AC is too expensive)

The way I see it, my core beliefs have to matter, they cant be conditional. I am a pacifist because I love humanity, and I would (most of the time) rather take a punch than to land one. I have to stick to that. If I don't - would it matter? No, I don't think so. I can't win a fight against a big strong man kicking down my door. He will kill me either way - even if I had a gun. Me killing him first just makes me die slower and take another person down with me. Besides, I might make a mistake and kill someone who wasn't a threat.

Those are not good reasons to change my core beliefs, or become a danger to people around me.
Beverlee
Posts: 721
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 2:11:18 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Actually, I do know where I can get a new bike if someone steals this one. The place where I get clothes sells used ones for like $20. That is about the same as a bike chain.

I also don't think that I would rely on the cops, because I wouldn't call the cops. The only time I think the cops should get involved is if I need to stop someone from getting hurt by a person. They can steal my stuff, break into my apartment (as long as I'm not home) or whatever, but I can't let you do that to someone else. I don't have kids, but the same thing goes for that - if someone is going to hurt them, then I have to try and stop that.

But I am not willing to compromise on this. I am not talking about rewarding criminals, because I am not encouraging criminals - they don't steal my stuff. I am not asking to be attacked, because I never am attacked. I'm not dumb, and don't go around scary looking white people that are cannibals.

One time at the mall someone cleaned all my change out of my ashtray. It had to be like, $10 worth of my coke money. But, thats it.
Beverlee
Posts: 721
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 2:18:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I'm not explaining myself very well, so I thought of a better way to say it.

Suicide by criminal is no better than suicide by cop. There have to be limits to what we allow to happen around us. The whole concept of "self-defense" is based on a fear of other people. I am not afraid of very many people, because I like most people.

But, if we allow our fear of the people around us to degrade our love of those people, then we make ourselves a danger to them - and they respond by becoming a danger to us - which sets off an escalation that good people cannot win.

We become less human, and more of a threat... all in order to prevent something that will probably never happen in the first place.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 3:45:11 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 1:30:32 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/5/2013 1:13:53 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Are you suggesting that a debate over what is an acceptable use of deadly force in reference to defense has no merit?

Let me ask you a few questions:
1. If a burglar is unarmed, see you are home, and tries to flee, should you be allowed to kill/shoot them? Were you defending yourself?

Depends..do they have any of your property with them? If they do, you definitely have the right to get it back. If not I'm unsure
So, can a student potentially kill a school-yard bully over milk money?

2. Same scenario, but doesn't flee until he sees your gun.

Same as above
How is their possession of my property defense of myself?

3. If you arrive home and there are burglars in your home and no one else is home (a known fact), can you rush in and shoot them?

Of course you can. If they dont want to be shot they shouldn't be taking other peoples property
But, you are not in any danger, so why put yourself in harm's way?

4. Is it defense to shoot someone on your property anywhere, like on the lawn?

If they're trying to steal or damage your property. You need to be careful not to harm neighbors though but I dont see how where on your property the shooting occurs matters unless it could hurt someone else.

I was referring to trespassing.
But, by your description, it sounds like someone keying your car is allowed to be killed.

5. Is it acceptable to shoot someone multiple times, when the first shot incapacitated them?

Ehh probably not but I would struggle to condemn people for it as it's often hard to tell

Let me rephrase:
Assume you shoot someone so they are wounded and are no threat to you, keeping a gun drawn until the police arrive. Is it acceptable to shoot them again, for trying to hurt you and/or stealing your stuff?

I know I am going to extremes with my examples, but that is how I think.
It sounds like you equate loss of property and defense. I do not.
If I did, then could I physically beat the crap out of someone with a bat until they died, simply because they tried to steal my TV?
My work here is, finally, done.
imabench
Posts: 21,204
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 4:02:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 1:33:29 AM, Jack212 wrote:
I will respond with lethal force against a guy if he:

- Tries to kill me.

- Makes romantic/sexual advances towards me.

- Threatens or hits me.

- Touches my stuff.

- Touches my girls.

- Slut-shames my girls.

- Coughs or spits in my food.

- Calls me a homo.

- Sticks chewing gum under my desk.

I will respond with lethal force against a girl if she:

- Tries to kill me.

- Is not somebody I find attractive, and tries to make sexual advances towards me.

- Attempts to do me serious bodily harm.

- Accuses me of raping her.

People like you are the reason we need more background checks....
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 4:09:39 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 1:09:43 AM, ironmaiden wrote:
It came to my realization long ago that people don't believe in the right to self-defense anymore. This is a very sad, sad, truth. Evidence to prove my theory is California. In California, you are not allowed to defend yourself from a burglar unless you are absolutely in fear for your life. But what does this mean? Because I would be in fear for my life if someone broke into my house, but apparently that isn't good enough for witches like Dianne Feinstein. In fact, society is so @ss-backwards that burglars can sue the home-owner over getting hurt in the process of burglarizing that home.

My question to you is this: under what circumstances do you have the right to defend yourself? Now, I only ask this because this is a tense situation today, and I want to see how many fvckheads disagree with self defense. I have my answer and that is this: if someone is threatening to harm you, you should take action. If someone has broken into your home, you should take action. The result? A lot less break-ins and acts of violence. Simple as that.

Otherwise, go ahead and rely on the cops. Hopefully they arrive in time. Or just don't defend yourself at all. Let the bad guy get you, because that's what politicians want.

I think California is a bit too progressive for its own good, but your comment here describes a somewhat skewed and seemingly drug-induced rendition of California.

Owners or residents of a home (but not their guests34) are entitled reasonably to defend their property against imminent harm. If you are in the home when an intruder enters, California self-defense law presumes that you reasonably fear imminent harm or danger.35

However, this presumption only applies once an intruder actually enters your home. Prior to the entry, you must prove that you acted reasonably if you used force to make him/her leave.36

Similarly, you have a right to use force against someone who is trespassing on your property. If you ask the person who is trespassing to leave...and he/she does not...you are permitted to use reasonable force to make him/her leave your property.37


http://www.shouselaw.com...

Basically, your post is materially false and misleading.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 4:40:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 1:30:32 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/5/2013 1:13:53 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Are you suggesting that a debate over what is an acceptable use of deadly force in reference to defense has no merit?

Let me ask you a few questions:
1. If a burglar is unarmed, see you are home, and tries to flee, should you be allowed to kill/shoot them? Were you defending yourself?

Depends..do they have any of your property with them? If they do, you definitely have the right to get it back. If not I'm unsure

2. Same scenario, but doesn't flee until he sees your gun.

Same as above

3. If you arrive home and there are burglars in your home and no one else is home (a known fact), can you rush in and shoot them?

Of course you can. If they dont want to be shot they shouldn't be taking other peoples property

4. Is it defense to shoot someone on your property anywhere, like on the lawn?

If they're trying to steal or damage your property. You need to be careful not to harm neighbors though but I dont see how where on your property the shooting occurs matters unless it could hurt someone else.

5. Is it acceptable to shoot someone multiple times, when the first shot incapacitated them?

Ehh probably not but I would struggle to condemn people for it as it's often hard to tell

So you think it's ok to shoot/kill someone if they steal from you?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
Jack212
Posts: 572
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 4:41:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 4:02:10 PM, imabench wrote:
At 10/5/2013 1:33:29 AM, Jack212 wrote:
I will respond with lethal force against a guy if he:

- Tries to kill me.

- Makes romantic/sexual advances towards me.

- Threatens or hits me.

- Touches my stuff.

- Touches my girls.

- Slut-shames my girls.

- Coughs or spits in my food.

- Calls me a homo.

- Sticks chewing gum under my desk.

I will respond with lethal force against a girl if she:

- Tries to kill me.

- Is not somebody I find attractive, and tries to make sexual advances towards me.

- Attempts to do me serious bodily harm.

- Accuses me of raping her.

People like you are the reason we need more background checks....

What good will a background check do? I don't leave bodies where cops can find them.
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 5:13:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The question is, what about self-defense against females? I took enough punches to the face last night from this chick, and I felt my well being was threatened, but she was a girl so I just took it... Should I have clocked her one?
thett3
Posts: 14,334
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 5:24:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 3:45:11 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/5/2013 1:30:32 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/5/2013 1:13:53 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Are you suggesting that a debate over what is an acceptable use of deadly force in reference to defense has no merit?

Let me ask you a few questions:
1. If a burglar is unarmed, see you are home, and tries to flee, should you be allowed to kill/shoot them? Were you defending yourself?

Depends..do they have any of your property with them? If they do, you definitely have the right to get it back. If not I'm unsure
So, can a student potentially kill a school-yard bully over milk money?

There is a difference between shooting someone running off with your valuables and killing a kid over lunch money. If you don't shoot them they will likely get away with your property since they're fleeing. If they don't want to get shot they shouldn't be taking what isn't theirs

2. Same scenario, but doesn't flee until he sees your gun.

Same as above
How is their possession of my property defense of myself?

It's a defense of your property. You think people should stand idly by why their things are taken? Ridiculous

3. If you arrive home and there are burglars in your home and no one else is home (a known fact), can you rush in and shoot them?

Of course you can. If they dont want to be shot they shouldn't be taking other peoples property
But, you are not in any danger, so why put yourself in harm's way?

Whether it's a wise decision or not isnt relevant to it's moral standing

4. Is it defense to shoot someone on your property anywhere, like on the lawn?

If they're trying to steal or damage your property. You need to be careful not to harm neighbors though but I dont see how where on your property the shooting occurs matters unless it could hurt someone else.

I was referring to trespassing.
But, by your description, it sounds like someone keying your car is allowed to be killed.

What's wrong with that?

5. Is it acceptable to shoot someone multiple times, when the first shot incapacitated them?

Ehh probably not but I would struggle to condemn people for it as it's often hard to tell

Let me rephrase:
Assume you shoot someone so they are wounded and are no threat to you, keeping a gun drawn until the police arrive. Is it acceptable to shoot them again, for trying to hurt you and/or stealing your stuff?

No I suppose not

I know I am going to extremes with my examples, but that is how I think.
It sounds like you equate loss of property and defense. I do not.
If I did, then could I physically beat the crap out of someone with a bat until they died, simply because they tried to steal my TV?

Depends. Are they on your property trying to steal your things? By all means use deadly force
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
Posts: 14,334
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 5:25:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 4:40:46 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/5/2013 1:30:32 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/5/2013 1:13:53 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Are you suggesting that a debate over what is an acceptable use of deadly force in reference to defense has no merit?

Let me ask you a few questions:
1. If a burglar is unarmed, see you are home, and tries to flee, should you be allowed to kill/shoot them? Were you defending yourself?

Depends..do they have any of your property with them? If they do, you definitely have the right to get it back. If not I'm unsure

2. Same scenario, but doesn't flee until he sees your gun.

Same as above

3. If you arrive home and there are burglars in your home and no one else is home (a known fact), can you rush in and shoot them?

Of course you can. If they dont want to be shot they shouldn't be taking other peoples property

4. Is it defense to shoot someone on your property anywhere, like on the lawn?

If they're trying to steal or damage your property. You need to be careful not to harm neighbors though but I dont see how where on your property the shooting occurs matters unless it could hurt someone else.

5. Is it acceptable to shoot someone multiple times, when the first shot incapacitated them?

Ehh probably not but I would struggle to condemn people for it as it's often hard to tell

So you think it's ok to shoot/kill someone if they steal from you?

Of course it's okay to kill someone breaking into your house why wouldn't it be?
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 5:33:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 5:13:20 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The question is, what about self-defense against females? I took enough punches to the face last night from this chick, and I felt my well being was threatened, but she was a girl so I just took it... Should I have clocked her one?

I think you had a right to defend yourself .. Maybe shoved her away from you or something.. But then again, if you did hit her, what could she say? She was hitting you. and from what you said was more than one time..
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
GodChoosesLife
Posts: 3,461
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 5:37:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 4:40:46 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/5/2013 1:30:32 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/5/2013 1:13:53 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Are you suggesting that a debate over what is an acceptable use of deadly force in reference to defense has no merit?

Let me ask you a few questions:
1. If a burglar is unarmed, see you are home, and tries to flee, should you be allowed to kill/shoot them? Were you defending yourself?

Depends..do they have any of your property with them? If they do, you definitely have the right to get it back. If not I'm unsure

2. Same scenario, but doesn't flee until he sees your gun.

Same as above

3. If you arrive home and there are burglars in your home and no one else is home (a known fact), can you rush in and shoot them?

Of course you can. If they dont want to be shot they shouldn't be taking other peoples property

4. Is it defense to shoot someone on your property anywhere, like on the lawn?

If they're trying to steal or damage your property. You need to be careful not to harm neighbors though but I dont see how where on your property the shooting occurs matters unless it could hurt someone else.

5. Is it acceptable to shoot someone multiple times, when the first shot incapacitated them?

Ehh probably not but I would struggle to condemn people for it as it's often hard to tell

So you think it's ok to shoot/kill someone if they steal from you?

Depends on the location your at... But I don't believe killing would solve anything..
Better than deserved, as ALWAYS.
"The strongest principle of growth lies in human choices."
"The Lord doesn't promise us a perfect life that is free of problems, but he does promise that He'll get us through anything." ~SweeTea
"Good Times" ~ Max
"If Jesus isn't in heaven, then it's not heaven; instead, it's hell." ~anonymous
"Suffering is unimaginably confusing, but it's a way to be drawn closer to God" ~Me
"Tell me what consumes your heart most, and I'll tell you who your God is." ~Dad
Beverlee
Posts: 721
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 6:18:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 5:13:20 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The question is, what about self-defense against females? I took enough punches to the face last night from this chick, and I felt my well being was threatened, but she was a girl so I just took it... Should I have clocked her one?

No, you should not have. You stood there like an adult and turned out fine - which proves that you did not need to defend yourself. What she did was (probably) illegal, so you could have called the police.

I am glad that you did not hit her back, and I am sorry that you got hit. But it makes me nervous that you ask if it's ok to hit women when they are not placing you in danger.
GWL-CPA
Posts: 627
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 6:34:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 1:13:53 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Are you suggesting that a debate over what is an acceptable use of deadly force in reference to defense has no merit?

Let me ask you a few questions:
1. If a burglar is unarmed, see you are home, and tries to flee, should you be allowed to kill/shoot them? Were you defending yourself?
2. Same scenario, but doesn't flee until he sees your gun.
3. If you arrive home and there are burglars in your home and no one else is home (a known fact), can you rush in and shoot them?
4. Is it defense to shoot someone on your property anywhere, like on the lawn?
5. Is it acceptable to shoot someone multiple times, when the first shot incapacitated them?

Actually, it depends on whether you are in fear of your life of not. And, if you are in fear on your life and unload the whole magazine into the A-hole, too bad for him. It would be up to a jury, assuming you were even charged. If you are a small women who comes face to face with burglars who are in your home, the assumption is that they are going to hurt you. You shot the A-holes and hopefully kill them. If you don't kill him, he will most likely win a civil money suit against you. So, make sure you kill the A-hole.

And, if the guy is out of your home and fleeing, of course, you can't shot him because you are not in fear of your life. And, obviously you can't shoot someone in your front yard. Now, if they are breaking down your front door or a window to get at you, most likely you can kill them if you are in fear of your life.

Why are you asking these dumb questions. You should already know the answers.

It is just like George Zimmerman, he was justified in shooting that black pot smoking punk because he was in fear on his life; it was self defense.
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years."

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Mark Twain
GWL-CPA
Posts: 627
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 6:44:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 2:18:27 PM, Beverlee wrote:
I'm not explaining myself very well, so I thought of a better way to say it.

Suicide by criminal is no better than suicide by cop. There have to be limits to what we allow to happen around us. The whole concept of "self-defense" is based on a fear of other people. I am not afraid of very many people, because I like most people.

But, if we allow our fear of the people around us to degrade our love of those people, then we make ourselves a danger to them - and they respond by becoming a danger to us - which sets off an escalation that good people cannot win.

We become less human, and more of a threat... all in order to prevent something that will probably never happen in the first place.

You are clueless.

Just because it has not happened to you; does not make your world reality. In 2010, there were 13,800 murders in the USA.
http://www.reuters.com...

The USA is a very dangerous place. Mainly because America has 33,000 gangs with 1.4 million gang members. These folks are responsible for most all violent crimes in America according to the FBI.

13 American Gangs Keeping The FBI Up At Night

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com...
We looked at the 2011 FBI gang report last year and not much has changed as we wait for the 2012 report to come out.
More than 1.4 million Americans are still wearing the colors of more than 33,000 gangs across the country, according to the report.

Based on evidence from federal, state, local, and tribal law enforcement, the FBI says gangs commit 48% of violent crime, and are only becoming more dangerous. Some even source weapons from the military.

What has changed is the legal position of one of these gangs who is suing the FBI for being on the list at all. Check out the following slides to see which one it is.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com...

Blacks and Hispanic/Latino make up most of the 1.4 million gang members.

And, one of these gangs is now suing the FBI for having them on the list.

Too funny.
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years."

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Mark Twain
GWL-CPA
Posts: 627
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 6:48:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 4:09:39 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 10/5/2013 1:09:43 AM, ironmaiden wrote:
It came to my realization long ago that people don't believe in the right to self-defense anymore. This is a very sad, sad, truth. Evidence to prove my theory is California. In California, you are not allowed to defend yourself from a burglar unless you are absolutely in fear for your life. But what does this mean? Because I would be in fear for my life if someone broke into my house, but apparently that isn't good enough for witches like Dianne Feinstein. In fact, society is so @ss-backwards that burglars can sue the home-owner over getting hurt in the process of burglarizing that home.

My question to you is this: under what circumstances do you have the right to defend yourself? Now, I only ask this because this is a tense situation today, and I want to see how many fvckheads disagree with self defense. I have my answer and that is this: if someone is threatening to harm you, you should take action. If someone has broken into your home, you should take action. The result? A lot less break-ins and acts of violence. Simple as that.

Otherwise, go ahead and rely on the cops. Hopefully they arrive in time. Or just don't defend yourself at all. Let the bad guy get you, because that's what politicians want.

I think California is a bit too progressive for its own good, but your comment here describes a somewhat skewed and seemingly drug-induced rendition of California.

Owners or residents of a home (but not their guests34) are entitled reasonably to defend their property against imminent harm. If you are in the home when an intruder enters, California self-defense law presumes that you reasonably fear imminent harm or danger.35

However, this presumption only applies once an intruder actually enters your home. Prior to the entry, you must prove that you acted reasonably if you used force to make him/her leave.36

Similarly, you have a right to use force against someone who is trespassing on your property. If you ask the person who is trespassing to leave...and he/she does not...you are permitted to use reasonable force to make him/her leave your property.37


http://www.shouselaw.com...

Basically, your post is materially false and misleading.

Great post wrichcirw. But, trying to bring reality to these folks that think we should kiss the intruders and tell that we love them as they steal us blind and try to kill us is pointless.

These doves will never understand the right to Self-Defense.
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years."

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Mark Twain
GWL-CPA
Posts: 627
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 6:50:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 1:52:54 PM, Beverlee wrote:
Hmmm.... obviously, there are times when your body will just defend itself against harm. Fire-hot; fight, flight or freeze; anger reflex; etc. Very few people will try to resist this defensive safety switch.

But I think we should not defend ourselves against people that want to harm us most of the time. I think that this sort of thing actually invites attack. Being more aggressive and creating an environment of aggression does not calm aggression - it just temporarily suppresses it. We need to change the paradigm.

If someone wants to insult me, I am not going to defend myself. (I might at first, but I will eventually get composure and stop. I would prefer to be attacked then to hurt an attacker.)

I never use a bike chain, even though I can NOT afford a new bike right now. If someone wants to steal it, then ok. I am never going to defend my things.

I don't lock the door to my apartment unless I am home. I don't even shut the windows (AC is too expensive)

The way I see it, my core beliefs have to matter, they cant be conditional. I am a pacifist because I love humanity, and I would (most of the time) rather take a punch than to land one. I have to stick to that. If I don't - would it matter? No, I don't think so. I can't win a fight against a big strong man kicking down my door. He will kill me either way - even if I had a gun. Me killing him first just makes me die slower and take another person down with me. Besides, I might make a mistake and kill someone who wasn't a threat.

Those are not good reasons to change my core beliefs, or become a danger to people around me.

What fantasy world do you live in, Dove?
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years."

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Mark Twain
GWL-CPA
Posts: 627
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 7:08:16 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 5:13:20 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
The question is, what about self-defense against females? I took enough punches to the face last night from this chick, and I felt my well being was threatened, but she was a girl so I just took it... Should I have clocked her one?

If you were in fear of your life, you had every right to clock the babe. Were you too stoned or drunk to block her punches?

Self-Defense is all about reasonable force in the given situation.

If you weight 100 lbs and the girls weighs 200 lbs and she has you blocked in a corner where you can't escape and she is beating your arse, you can kill her in self defense. What don't you understand?

Now, if you could escape, then you have to try to escape. But, there are many factors that come into play that are weighed in determining if you really had a chance to escape.

Now, if you weighed 200 lbs and she weighed 100 lbs and had no weapon and just hit you in the face, then you still can defend yourself by blocking her punches. You can also run away. Assuming that she hit you hard enough to leave a mark, and you hit her back and left a mark, it is unlikely that a cop would charge either of you, unless there was a witness that could substantiate who threw the first punch. There is no law that say you can't hit a woman. Just depends on reasonable force in the given circumstances.

Why didn't you just leave when when this girl started hitting you and your well-being was being threatened? I actually think you made this up.
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years."

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Mark Twain
ironmaiden
Posts: 456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 8:33:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I knew this would be an interesting debate. Thank you all for making my first forum a success.

If someone is in my home and he doesn't belong there, or he is stealing my property, I will bust out a gun and threaten to use it. If he makes a move against the warning, I'll use deadly force. If he backs off, okay, I'll let him live, but I'll make sure he's gone. Hopefully he would think better next time he feels like burglarizing a home. He may, he may not, but at least I won't go to prison. If he forces me to use deadly force, I'll make sure he is down. I'll shoot him however many times it takes to eliminate the threat. If that means one shot to kill him, or one shot to send him to the ground with no option other then laying there and suffering, okay. If it means unloading my entire magazine into him, okay. Because there have been incidents in which burglars have gotten up after being shot five times. Don't know the caliber; obviously .22 might not be great for home defense, but hey, I've heard stories of people surviving shotgun blasts to the face.

This goes for any kind of business he has on my property. If he is in my house stealing my TV, I'll threaten him, or if he's keying my car, I'll threaten him. If he is stealing a freaking water bottle, I'll threaten him. And if he is trying to hurt people, I will kill him without a second thought. He is in my house and doesn't belong there.

Maybe he is drunk and walked into the wrong house, or he is a dear friend and walks in wearing a ski mask (this actually happened to my aunt, a family friend walked in during the night wearing what a burglar would wear because of the freezing cold--not the smartest thing to do, but it was an honest mistake). That is why I won't automatically kill him unless he forces me to.

Basically, these are my circumstances. I'm not a people-loving hippie like Beverlee, but that doesn't make me hostile to people. I am not going to shoot someone down for being on my lawn. However, I will not sit there and let someone attack me or my home, unless that is my absolute only option. And I would be in fear for my life if a random person was in my house, who wouldn't? They aren't supposed to be there, so they are obviously up to no good. Who knows what they are really doing there?
"I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire six shots or only five?' Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being that his is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question. 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?"
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 8:57:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 8:33:07 PM, ironmaiden wrote:
I knew this would be an interesting debate. Thank you all for making my first forum a success.

If someone is in my home and he doesn't belong there, or he is stealing my property, I will bust out a gun and threaten to use it. If he makes a move against the warning, I'll use deadly force. If he backs off, okay, I'll let him live, but I'll make sure he's gone. Hopefully he would think better next time he feels like burglarizing a home. He may, he may not, but at least I won't go to prison. If he forces me to use deadly force, I'll make sure he is down. I'll shoot him however many times it takes to eliminate the threat. If that means one shot to kill him, or one shot to send him to the ground with no option other then laying there and suffering, okay. If it means unloading my entire magazine into him, okay. Because there have been incidents in which burglars have gotten up after being shot five times. Don't know the caliber; obviously .22 might not be great for home defense, but hey, I've heard stories of people surviving shotgun blasts to the face.

This goes for any kind of business he has on my property. If he is in my house stealing my TV, I'll threaten him, or if he's keying my car, I'll threaten him. If he is stealing a freaking water bottle, I'll threaten him. And if he is trying to hurt people, I will kill him without a second thought. He is in my house and doesn't belong there.

Maybe he is drunk and walked into the wrong house, or he is a dear friend and walks in wearing a ski mask (this actually happened to my aunt, a family friend walked in during the night wearing what a burglar would wear because of the freezing cold--not the smartest thing to do, but it was an honest mistake). That is why I won't automatically kill him unless he forces me to.

Basically, these are my circumstances. I'm not a people-loving hippie like Beverlee, but that doesn't make me hostile to people. I am not going to shoot someone down for being on my lawn. However, I will not sit there and let someone attack me or my home, unless that is my absolute only option. And I would be in fear for my life if a random person was in my house, who wouldn't? They aren't supposed to be there, so they are obviously up to no good. Who knows what they are really doing there?

I will reiterate that most if not all of this is allowable in California, and that perhaps you should put down the crack pipe before you call Feinstein a witch.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 8:57:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 6:48:53 PM, GWL-CPA wrote:
At 10/5/2013 4:09:39 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 10/5/2013 1:09:43 AM, ironmaiden wrote:
It came to my realization long ago that people don't believe in the right to self-defense anymore. This is a very sad, sad, truth. Evidence to prove my theory is California. In California, you are not allowed to defend yourself from a burglar unless you are absolutely in fear for your life. But what does this mean? Because I would be in fear for my life if someone broke into my house, but apparently that isn't good enough for witches like Dianne Feinstein. In fact, society is so @ss-backwards that burglars can sue the home-owner over getting hurt in the process of burglarizing that home.

My question to you is this: under what circumstances do you have the right to defend yourself? Now, I only ask this because this is a tense situation today, and I want to see how many fvckheads disagree with self defense. I have my answer and that is this: if someone is threatening to harm you, you should take action. If someone has broken into your home, you should take action. The result? A lot less break-ins and acts of violence. Simple as that.

Otherwise, go ahead and rely on the cops. Hopefully they arrive in time. Or just don't defend yourself at all. Let the bad guy get you, because that's what politicians want.

I think California is a bit too progressive for its own good, but your comment here describes a somewhat skewed and seemingly drug-induced rendition of California.

Owners or residents of a home (but not their guests34) are entitled reasonably to defend their property against imminent harm. If you are in the home when an intruder enters, California self-defense law presumes that you reasonably fear imminent harm or danger.35

However, this presumption only applies once an intruder actually enters your home. Prior to the entry, you must prove that you acted reasonably if you used force to make him/her leave.36

Similarly, you have a right to use force against someone who is trespassing on your property. If you ask the person who is trespassing to leave...and he/she does not...you are permitted to use reasonable force to make him/her leave your property.37


http://www.shouselaw.com...

Basically, your post is materially false and misleading.

Great post wrichcirw. But, trying to bring reality to these folks that think we should kiss the intruders and tell that we love them as they steal us blind and try to kill us is pointless.

These doves will never understand the right to Self-Defense.

Thanks. I don't get the no-self-defense crowd myself either.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
ironmaiden
Posts: 456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 10:27:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 8:57:06 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
I will reiterate that most if not all of this is allowable in California, and that perhaps you should put down the crack pipe before you call Feinstein a witch.

Feinstein? Oh, I hate her. She is a witch and I will never think otherwise. She is out to strip me of my rights and leave me defenseless. She stands for everything that is wrong with the government. Don't try to justify what she does, or make her out to be the good guy. I will only laugh.

As for California, it is the most evil state in the nation. I don't care what the law states, or what you say. If I kill someone who has broken into my home, I will most likely go to prison for the rest of my life, unless the guy has a weapon. Still, there is no guarantee I would be let off that easy. In other states, this is not the case. And like I have said before, burglars have sued people after getting hurt in the process of robbing those people. This has happened. You would think the burglar would get in trouble, but sadly, no. Therefore the law in California may say this and that, but that doesn't mean anything anymore.
"I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire six shots or only five?' Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being that his is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question. 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?"
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 10:31:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 10:27:21 PM, ironmaiden wrote:
At 10/5/2013 8:57:06 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
I will reiterate that most if not all of this is allowable in California, and that perhaps you should put down the crack pipe before you call Feinstein a witch.

Feinstein? Oh, I hate her. She is a witch and I will never think otherwise. She is out to strip me of my rights and leave me defenseless. She stands for everything that is wrong with the government. Don't try to justify what she does, or make her out to be the good guy. I will only laugh.

As for California, it is the most evil state in the nation. I don't care what the law states, or what you say. If I kill someone who has broken into my home, I will most likely go to prison for the rest of my life, unless the guy has a weapon. Still, there is no guarantee I would be let off that easy. In other states, this is not the case. And like I have said before, burglars have sued people after getting hurt in the process of robbing those people. This has happened. You would think the burglar would get in trouble, but sadly, no. Therefore the law in California may say this and that, but that doesn't mean anything anymore.

At this juncture, the discussion ceases to be reasonable. Good day.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 10:42:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 5:25:52 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/5/2013 4:40:46 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/5/2013 1:30:32 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/5/2013 1:13:53 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Are you suggesting that a debate over what is an acceptable use of deadly force in reference to defense has no merit?

Let me ask you a few questions:
1. If a burglar is unarmed, see you are home, and tries to flee, should you be allowed to kill/shoot them? Were you defending yourself?

Depends..do they have any of your property with them? If they do, you definitely have the right to get it back. If not I'm unsure

2. Same scenario, but doesn't flee until he sees your gun.

Same as above

3. If you arrive home and there are burglars in your home and no one else is home (a known fact), can you rush in and shoot them?

Of course you can. If they dont want to be shot they shouldn't be taking other peoples property

4. Is it defense to shoot someone on your property anywhere, like on the lawn?

If they're trying to steal or damage your property. You need to be careful not to harm neighbors though but I dont see how where on your property the shooting occurs matters unless it could hurt someone else.

5. Is it acceptable to shoot someone multiple times, when the first shot incapacitated them?

Ehh probably not but I would struggle to condemn people for it as it's often hard to tell

So you think it's ok to shoot/kill someone if they steal from you?

Of course it's okay to kill someone breaking into your house why wouldn't it be?

Because killing is wrong, and two wrongs don't make a right. But I didn't ask about breaking into a house, I asked about stealing.
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.
muzebreak
Posts: 2,781
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
10/5/2013 10:42:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/5/2013 5:37:16 PM, GodChoosesLife wrote:
At 10/5/2013 4:40:46 PM, muzebreak wrote:
At 10/5/2013 1:30:32 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 10/5/2013 1:13:53 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Are you suggesting that a debate over what is an acceptable use of deadly force in reference to defense has no merit?

Let me ask you a few questions:
1. If a burglar is unarmed, see you are home, and tries to flee, should you be allowed to kill/shoot them? Were you defending yourself?

Depends..do they have any of your property with them? If they do, you definitely have the right to get it back. If not I'm unsure

2. Same scenario, but doesn't flee until he sees your gun.

Same as above

3. If you arrive home and there are burglars in your home and no one else is home (a known fact), can you rush in and shoot them?

Of course you can. If they dont want to be shot they shouldn't be taking other peoples property

4. Is it defense to shoot someone on your property anywhere, like on the lawn?

If they're trying to steal or damage your property. You need to be careful not to harm neighbors though but I dont see how where on your property the shooting occurs matters unless it could hurt someone else.

5. Is it acceptable to shoot someone multiple times, when the first shot incapacitated them?

Ehh probably not but I would struggle to condemn people for it as it's often hard to tell

So you think it's ok to shoot/kill someone if they steal from you?

Depends on the location your at... But I don't believe killing would solve anything..

What does the location have to do with it?
"Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for science intact." - Carl Sagan

This is the response of the defenders of Sparta to the Commander of the Roman Army: "If you are a god, you will not hurt those who have never injured you. If you are a man, advance - you will find men equal to yourself. And women.