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True libertarians are prochoice.

Sitara
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10/30/2013 1:38:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
I get so annoyed by psuedotarians who dare say that they are libertarians. Libertarians oppose all of most government control, so that makes them prochoice on abortion, birth control, lighting up a doobie, and pretty much anything. Why am I a liberal? JK, I thought to add humor. How about your thoughts.
sdavio
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10/30/2013 4:33:58 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 1:38:55 AM, Sitara wrote:
I get so annoyed by psuedotarians who dare say that they are libertarians. Libertarians oppose all of most government control, so that makes them prochoice on abortion, birth control, lighting up a doobie, and pretty much anything. Why am I a liberal? JK, I thought to add humor. How about your thoughts.

Well if someone believed abortion is murder, then it'd not be necessarily libertarian to be pro choice, since that would be initiation of force.
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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10/30/2013 11:44:37 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"As an O.B. doctor of thirty years, and having delivered 4,000 babies, I can assure you life begins at conception. I am legally responsible for the unborn, no matter what I do, so there"s a legal life there. The unborn has inheritance rights, and if there"s an injury or a killing, there is a legal entity. There is no doubt about it."

"The first thing we have to do is get the federal government out of it. We don"t need a federal abortion police. That"s the last thing that we need. There has to be a criminal penalty for the person that"s committing that crime. And I think that is the abortionist. As for the punishment, I don"t think that should be up to the president to decide."

-- Ron Paul
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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10/30/2013 11:47:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
"Some people believe that being pro-choice is being on the side of freedom. I've never understood how killing a human being, albeit a small one in a special place, is portrayed as a precious right."
Source: Liberty Defined, by Rep. Ron Paul


"My argument is that the abortion problem is more of a social and moral issue than it is a legal one. If we are ever to have fewer abortions, society must change. The law will not accomplish that. However, that does not mean that the states shouldn't be allowed to write laws dealing with abortion."
Source: Liberty Defined, by Rep. Ron Paul, p. 5 , Apr 19, 2011

"A popular academic argument for abortion demands that we think of the child in the womb as a parasite but the same argument justifies infanticide, since it applies just as well to an infant outside the womb. Newborns require even more attention & care.

People ask an expectant mother how her baby is doing. They do not ask how her fetus is doing, or her blob of tissue, or her parasite. But that is what her baby becomes as soon as the child is declared to be unwanted."
Source: The Revolution: A Manifesto, by Ron Paul, p. 59-60 , Apr 1, 2008
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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10/30/2013 12:01:21 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The problem is, is that the Libertarians that get any political power have cliche right social views, when pure libertarianism is neither left or right socially.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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10/30/2013 12:05:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 11:47:39 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
People ask an expectant mother how her baby is doing. They do not ask how her fetus is doing, or her blob of tissue, or her parasite. But that is what her baby becomes as soon as the child is declared to be unwanted."
Source: The Revolution: A Manifesto, by Ron Paul, p. 59-60 , Apr 1, 2008

I particularly like this one, since of course if people are asking how the "baby" is doing, and not how the "fetus" is doing, it means life begins at conception. THE LOGIC IS VALID.
GeoLaureate8
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10/30/2013 12:40:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 12:05:37 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 10/30/2013 11:47:39 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
People ask an expectant mother how her baby is doing. They do not ask how her fetus is doing, or her blob of tissue, or her parasite. But that is what her baby becomes as soon as the child is declared to be unwanted."
Source: The Revolution: A Manifesto, by Ron Paul, p. 59-60 , Apr 1, 2008

I particularly like this one, since of course if people are asking how the "baby" is doing, and not how the "fetus" is doing, it means life begins at conception. THE LOGIC IS VALID.

That's not his argument used to prove when life begins. That's an argument to highlight the oppositions hypocrisy using their own world-view against pro-choice advocacy.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
bossyburrito
Posts: 14,075
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10/30/2013 1:15:08 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Are libertarians pro-choice in the case of murder?
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drhead
Posts: 1,475
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10/30/2013 2:29:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 4:33:58 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 10/30/2013 1:38:55 AM, Sitara wrote:
I get so annoyed by psuedotarians who dare say that they are libertarians. Libertarians oppose all of most government control, so that makes them prochoice on abortion, birth control, lighting up a doobie, and pretty much anything. Why am I a liberal? JK, I thought to add humor. How about your thoughts.

Well if someone believed abortion is murder, then it'd not be necessarily libertarian to be pro choice, since that would be initiation of force.

Wouldn't taking residence in the womb without consent also be initiation of force?
Wall of Fail

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wrichcirw
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10/30/2013 2:55:15 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 2:29:48 PM, drhead wrote:
At 10/30/2013 4:33:58 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 10/30/2013 1:38:55 AM, Sitara wrote:
I get so annoyed by psuedotarians who dare say that they are libertarians. Libertarians oppose all of most government control, so that makes them prochoice on abortion, birth control, lighting up a doobie, and pretty much anything. Why am I a liberal? JK, I thought to add humor. How about your thoughts.

Well if someone believed abortion is murder, then it'd not be necessarily libertarian to be pro choice, since that would be initiation of force.

Wouldn't taking residence in the womb without consent also be initiation of force?

^

Life is violence.

Any "libertarian" that refuses to acknowledge such is simply waiting to be "liberated" from their existence.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
drhead
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10/30/2013 3:06:22 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 11:44:37 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"As an O.B. doctor of thirty years, and having delivered 4,000 babies, I can assure you life begins at conception.

Begging the question. Quite a subpar start to one of your posts with nothing but copy-pasted quotes with no actual deliberation or substance.

I am legally responsible for the unborn, no matter what I do, so there"s a legal life there. The unborn has inheritance rights, and if there"s an injury or a killing, there is a legal entity. There is no doubt about it."

"The first thing we have to do is get the federal government out of it. We don"t need a federal abortion police. That"s the last thing that we need. There has to be a criminal penalty for the person that"s committing that crime. And I think that is the abortionist. As for the punishment, I don"t think that should be up to the president to decide."

Once again, no evidence offered, and the statement is wrapped up with a blatantly stupid statement that the president is trying to decide what the punishment for abortion is. The president knows damn well that it isn't his responsibility, and that it isn't up to the legislative branch either. The issue was settled by the Supreme Court, and it is up to either the Court to change their opinion (good luck with that one) or for the states to decide by constitutional amendment (again, good luck). Ron Paul should know this.

-- Ron Paul

At 10/30/2013 11:47:39 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"Some people believe that being pro-choice is being on the side of freedom. I've never understood how killing a human being, albeit a small one in a special place, is portrayed as a precious right."
Source: Liberty Defined, by Rep. Ron Paul


Less like "killing" and more like "withholding aid". You do realize that that is how most abortions work, right? Medical abortions essentially break down the lining of the uterus - the embryo then breaks off of the lining. I don't see how libertarians have a problem with this - in Sitara's other thread, I see people have no objection to withholding medicine that is needed for someone to live. Why the double standard?

"My argument is that the abortion problem is more of a social and moral issue than it is a legal one. If we are ever to have fewer abortions, society must change. The law will not accomplish that. However, that does not mean that the states shouldn't be allowed to write laws dealing with abortion."
Source: Liberty Defined, by Rep. Ron Paul, p. 5 , Apr 19, 2011

And as long as the states are bound by the Constitution and the Supreme Court, they will not be able to enforce any law they make, unless they have the lack of restraint we see in Texas's state legislature, where legislators seem to have no objection to using underhanded tactics such as targeted regulations to prevent abortion clinics from being able to operate.

"A popular academic argument for abortion demands that we think of the child in the womb as a parasite but the same argument justifies infanticide, since it applies just as well to an infant outside the womb. Newborns require even more attention & care.

People ask an expectant mother how her baby is doing. They do not ask how her fetus is doing, or her blob of tissue, or her parasite. But that is what her baby becomes as soon as the child is declared to be unwanted."
Source: The Revolution: A Manifesto, by Ron Paul, p. 59-60 , Apr 1, 2008

There is little substance to this to actually address. Should I assume it is a joke, given the date?
Wall of Fail

"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
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Stephen_Hawkins
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10/30/2013 3:21:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 4:33:58 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 10/30/2013 1:38:55 AM, Sitara wrote:
I get so annoyed by psuedotarians who dare say that they are libertarians. Libertarians oppose all of most government control, so that makes them prochoice on abortion, birth control, lighting up a doobie, and pretty much anything. Why am I a liberal? JK, I thought to add humor. How about your thoughts.

Well if someone believed abortion is murder, then it'd not be necessarily libertarian to be pro choice, since that would be initiation of force.

I had this force, but Thomson's argument would invalidate this. The child would be trespassing on the parent, and as such a libertarian would have to say, if the maxim "One committing trespass on another's private property sacrifices their right to life" or "One infringing on another's private property loses all their rights" are justified. The unpleasant consequence, as many libertarian philosophers have noted, is that a twelve year old child, if they are dependent on the parent (and they surely are), may be left to die, if the parent simply does not really want to put up with them any more.
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Volkov
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10/30/2013 3:30:13 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 12:40:24 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
That's not his argument used to prove when life begins. That's an argument to highlight the oppositions hypocrisy using their own world-view against pro-choice advocacy.

That's just silly. There is a big difference between when someone is talking socially about an expected child, versus when they're talking about biology. Ron Paul knows this, so I can only conclude he's being highly disingenuous - but I guess we already knew that.
GeoLaureate8
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10/30/2013 4:20:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 3:06:22 PM, drhead wrote:
At 10/30/2013 11:44:37 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"As an O.B. doctor of thirty years, and having delivered 4,000 babies, I can assure you life begins at conception.

Begging the question. Quite a subpar start to one of your posts with nothing but copy-pasted quotes with no actual deliberation or substance.

Stating your assertion in the middle of an argument is not begging the question. If he merely made the assertion and then repeated it to justify it, then it would be begging the question. He clearly did not do that. Your attempt to pinpoint a logical fallacy in his argument failed.

At 10/30/2013 11:47:39 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"Some people believe that being pro-choice is being on the side of freedom. I've never understood how killing a human being, albeit a small one in a special place, is portrayed as a precious right."
Source: Liberty Defined, by Rep. Ron Paul


Less like "killing" and more like "withholding aid". You do realize that that is how most abortions work, right? Medical abortions essentially break down the lining of the uterus - the embryo then breaks off of the lining. I don't see how libertarians have a problem with this

Translation: It's not "killing," it is "withholding aid" when you lock your child up in their room and don't feed them for 2 weeks. That's ok to you because it's not killing. Guess what, that's called child neglection and you go to jail for that.

- in Sitara's other thread, I see people have no objection to withholding medicine that is needed for someone to live. Why the double standard?

Libertarians stating that adults have no obligation to pay for other adults is different than the requirement that parents care for their children.

Also, I don't endorse the cold-hearted attitude of those Libertarians. I presented my solution in that thread to solve the healthcare crisis for Americans.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
ironmaiden
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10/30/2013 7:39:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 2:29:48 PM, drhead wrote:
At 10/30/2013 4:33:58 AM, sdavio wrote:
Well if someone believed abortion is murder, then it'd not be necessarily libertarian to be pro choice, since that would be initiation of force.

Wouldn't taking residence in the womb without consent also be initiation of force?

Taking residence in the womb without consent? Uh...dude, every woman has the choice whether she gets knocked up or not, unless she is raped, in which case give the baby away to a fuckin foster home. At least they get a chance at life.
"I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire six shots or only five?' Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being that his is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question. 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?"
slo1
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10/30/2013 7:55:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 1:15:08 PM, bossyburrito wrote:
Are libertarians pro-choice in the case of murder?

Ahhh, the good ol' days when a man had to be a man and his family had to seek revenge when he was murdered.

I see a new libertarian niche here where a right is only a right when you or your peeps can enforce it. That is true "power to the people."
slo1
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10/30/2013 7:57:01 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 7:39:45 PM, ironmaiden wrote:
At 10/30/2013 2:29:48 PM, drhead wrote:
At 10/30/2013 4:33:58 AM, sdavio wrote:
Well if someone believed abortion is murder, then it'd not be necessarily libertarian to be pro choice, since that would be initiation of force.

Wouldn't taking residence in the womb without consent also be initiation of force?

Taking residence in the womb without consent? Uh...dude, every woman has the choice whether she gets knocked up or not, unless she is raped, in which case give the baby away to a fuckin foster home. At least they get a chance at life.

You are talking in terms of the US. That is not an option world wide.
slo1
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10/30/2013 7:58:57 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 11:44:37 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
"As an O.B. doctor of thirty years, and having delivered 4,000 babies, I can assure you life begins at conception. I am legally responsible for the unborn, no matter what I do, so there"s a legal life there. The unborn has inheritance rights, and if there"s an injury or a killing, there is a legal entity. There is no doubt about it."

"The first thing we have to do is get the federal government out of it. We don"t need a federal abortion police. That"s the last thing that we need. There has to be a criminal penalty for the person that"s committing that crime. And I think that is the abortionist. As for the punishment, I don"t think that should be up to the president to decide."

-- Ron Paul

I don't understand the bottom quote. Is he saying that abortion law should be created and enforced at the state level rather than Federal level?
ironmaiden
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10/30/2013 8:38:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 7:57:01 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 10/30/2013 7:39:45 PM, ironmaiden wrote:
At 10/30/2013 2:29:48 PM, drhead wrote:
At 10/30/2013 4:33:58 AM, sdavio wrote:
Well if someone believed abortion is murder, then it'd not be necessarily libertarian to be pro choice, since that would be initiation of force.

Wouldn't taking residence in the womb without consent also be initiation of force?

Taking residence in the womb without consent? Uh...dude, every woman has the choice whether she gets knocked up or not, unless she is raped, in which case give the baby away to a fuckin foster home. At least they get a chance at life.

You are talking in terms of the US. That is not an option world wide.

I was talking in terms of neither the US or world wide. If a woman is raped, and there is nothing she could do except abort or raise the kid, but there's no way she could raise the baby, then okay, abortion is justified. That's extremely rare, but that would be okay, I guess. But too many people these days use rape as a defense to justify abortion. The fact is, half of the women who abort do so because they're irresponsible sluts who decided to go get knocked up and then found out about the consequences. There's a small percentage of women who abort because of legitimate circumstances (i.e. being raped and not having anyone to give the baby to, or being at risk of death if the baby is born).
12% of women undergoing abortion have medical conditions
1% of women undergoing abortion are rape victims
http://www.abort73.com...
"I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire six shots or only five?' Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being that his is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question. 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?"
ClassicRobert
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10/30/2013 8:47:09 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 3:21:26 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/30/2013 4:33:58 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 10/30/2013 1:38:55 AM, Sitara wrote:
I get so annoyed by psuedotarians who dare say that they are libertarians. Libertarians oppose all of most government control, so that makes them prochoice on abortion, birth control, lighting up a doobie, and pretty much anything. Why am I a liberal? JK, I thought to add humor. How about your thoughts.

Well if someone believed abortion is murder, then it'd not be necessarily libertarian to be pro choice, since that would be initiation of force.

I had this force, but Thomson's argument would invalidate this. The child would be trespassing on the parent, and as such a libertarian would have to say, if the maxim "One committing trespass on another's private property sacrifices their right to life" or "One infringing on another's private property loses all their rights" are justified. The unpleasant consequence, as many libertarian philosophers have noted, is that a twelve year old child, if they are dependent on the parent (and they surely are), may be left to die, if the parent simply does not really want to put up with them any more.

Excluding rape, it is not trespassing. When a person chooses to have sex, even if they use protection, they accept the risk of pregnancy. When you are taking medication, are you not consenting to the possibility of the listed side effects?
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slo1
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10/30/2013 8:47:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 8:38:54 PM, ironmaiden wrote:
At 10/30/2013 7:57:01 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 10/30/2013 7:39:45 PM, ironmaiden wrote:
At 10/30/2013 2:29:48 PM, drhead wrote:
At 10/30/2013 4:33:58 AM, sdavio wrote:
Well if someone believed abortion is murder, then it'd not be necessarily libertarian to be pro choice, since that would be initiation of force.

Wouldn't taking residence in the womb without consent also be initiation of force?

Taking residence in the womb without consent? Uh...dude, every woman has the choice whether she gets knocked up or not, unless she is raped, in which case give the baby away to a fuckin foster home. At least they get a chance at life.

You are talking in terms of the US. That is not an option world wide.

I was talking in terms of neither the US or world wide. If a woman is raped, and there is nothing she could do except abort or raise the kid, but there's no way she could raise the baby, then okay, abortion is justified. That's extremely rare, but that would be okay, I guess. But too many people these days use rape as a defense to justify abortion. The fact is, half of the women who abort do so because they're irresponsible sluts who decided to go get knocked up and then found out about the consequences. There's a small percentage of women who abort because of legitimate circumstances (i.e. being raped and not having anyone to give the baby to, or being at risk of death if the baby is born).
12% of women undergoing abortion have medical conditions
1% of women undergoing abortion are rape victims
http://www.abort73.com...

I was referring to giving up the child for adoption. That is not an option world wide.

I won't comment on your declaration that any woman who aborts is a slut.
Ore_Ele
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10/30/2013 8:54:14 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 2:29:48 PM, drhead wrote:
At 10/30/2013 4:33:58 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 10/30/2013 1:38:55 AM, Sitara wrote:
I get so annoyed by psuedotarians who dare say that they are libertarians. Libertarians oppose all of most government control, so that makes them prochoice on abortion, birth control, lighting up a doobie, and pretty much anything. Why am I a liberal? JK, I thought to add humor. How about your thoughts.

Well if someone believed abortion is murder, then it'd not be necessarily libertarian to be pro choice, since that would be initiation of force.

Wouldn't taking residence in the womb without consent also be initiation of force?

Do you believe that you can physically give $50 to a homeless person while saying "I'm not giving you money" means you can arrest them for theft? Especially if they don't speak the language? The baby doesn't take anything. The placenta, which transfers the nutrients to the fetus is created by the mother, and all nutrients is given by the mother. The baby does not take anything by force, nor does it move in.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
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10/30/2013 8:57:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 8:47:09 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 10/30/2013 3:21:26 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/30/2013 4:33:58 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 10/30/2013 1:38:55 AM, Sitara wrote:
I get so annoyed by psuedotarians who dare say that they are libertarians. Libertarians oppose all of most government control, so that makes them prochoice on abortion, birth control, lighting up a doobie, and pretty much anything. Why am I a liberal? JK, I thought to add humor. How about your thoughts.

Well if someone believed abortion is murder, then it'd not be necessarily libertarian to be pro choice, since that would be initiation of force.

I had this force, but Thomson's argument would invalidate this. The child would be trespassing on the parent, and as such a libertarian would have to say, if the maxim "One committing trespass on another's private property sacrifices their right to life" or "One infringing on another's private property loses all their rights" are justified. The unpleasant consequence, as many libertarian philosophers have noted, is that a twelve year old child, if they are dependent on the parent (and they surely are), may be left to die, if the parent simply does not really want to put up with them any more.

Excluding rape, it is not trespassing. When a person chooses to have sex, even if they use protection, they accept the risk of pregnancy. When you are taking medication, are you not consenting to the possibility of the listed side effects?

No, sue your doctor and the medical company. If you choose to dive into a shallow pool, that doesn't mean you consent to the head injury you'll probably suffer. Sue the pool owner!
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
ironmaiden
Posts: 456
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10/30/2013 8:57:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 8:47:49 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 10/30/2013 8:38:54 PM, ironmaiden wrote:
At 10/30/2013 7:57:01 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 10/30/2013 7:39:45 PM, ironmaiden wrote:
At 10/30/2013 2:29:48 PM, drhead wrote:
At 10/30/2013 4:33:58 AM, sdavio wrote:
Well if someone believed abortion is murder, then it'd not be necessarily libertarian to be pro choice, since that would be initiation of force.

Wouldn't taking residence in the womb without consent also be initiation of force?

Taking residence in the womb without consent? Uh...dude, every woman has the choice whether she gets knocked up or not, unless she is raped, in which case give the baby away to a fuckin foster home. At least they get a chance at life.

You are talking in terms of the US. That is not an option world wide.

I was talking in terms of neither the US or world wide. If a woman is raped, and there is nothing she could do except abort or raise the kid, but there's no way she could raise the baby, then okay, abortion is justified. That's extremely rare, but that would be okay, I guess. But too many people these days use rape as a defense to justify abortion. The fact is, half of the women who abort do so because they're irresponsible sluts who decided to go get knocked up and then found out about the consequences. There's a small percentage of women who abort because of legitimate circumstances (i.e. being raped and not having anyone to give the baby to, or being at risk of death if the baby is born).
12% of women undergoing abortion have medical conditions
1% of women undergoing abortion are rape victims
http://www.abort73.com...

I was referring to giving up the child for adoption. That is not an option world wide.

Yes, I responded to that.

I won't comment on your declaration that any woman who aborts is a slut.

And when did I say that? I said "half of the women who abort do so because they're irresponsible sluts who decided to go get knocked up and then found out about the consequences."
"I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire six shots or only five?' Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being that his is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question. 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?"
ironmaiden
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10/30/2013 9:07:48 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 3:21:26 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/30/2013 4:33:58 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 10/30/2013 1:38:55 AM, Sitara wrote:
I get so annoyed by psuedotarians who dare say that they are libertarians. Libertarians oppose all of most government control, so that makes them prochoice on abortion, birth control, lighting up a doobie, and pretty much anything. Why am I a liberal? JK, I thought to add humor. How about your thoughts.

Well if someone believed abortion is murder, then it'd not be necessarily libertarian to be pro choice, since that would be initiation of force.

I had this force, but Thomson's argument would invalidate this. The child would be trespassing on the parent, and as such a libertarian would have to say, if the maxim "One committing trespass on another's private property sacrifices their right to life" or "One infringing on another's private property loses all their rights" are justified. The unpleasant consequence, as many libertarian philosophers have noted, is that a twelve year old child, if they are dependent on the parent (and they surely are), may be left to die, if the parent simply does not really want to put up with them any more.

How the hell could a child trespass into the womb? It's not the baby's choice to be brought into existence. I had no say in my existence. Am I glad I exist? Yes. But did I invade my mother's insides? No, that was her choice.
"I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire six shots or only five?' Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being that his is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question. 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?"
drhead
Posts: 1,475
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10/30/2013 10:45:54 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 8:54:14 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/30/2013 2:29:48 PM, drhead wrote:
At 10/30/2013 4:33:58 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 10/30/2013 1:38:55 AM, Sitara wrote:
I get so annoyed by psuedotarians who dare say that they are libertarians. Libertarians oppose all of most government control, so that makes them prochoice on abortion, birth control, lighting up a doobie, and pretty much anything. Why am I a liberal? JK, I thought to add humor. How about your thoughts.

Well if someone believed abortion is murder, then it'd not be necessarily libertarian to be pro choice, since that would be initiation of force.

Wouldn't taking residence in the womb without consent also be initiation of force?

Do you believe that you can physically give $50 to a homeless person while saying "I'm not giving you money" means you can arrest them for theft? Especially if they don't speak the language? The baby doesn't take anything. The placenta, which transfers the nutrients to the fetus is created by the mother, and all nutrients is given by the mother. The baby does not take anything by force, nor does it move in.

If that is true, then any medically-induced abortion would be withholding said nutrients from the fetus, and would not be an initiation of force.
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donald.keller
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10/31/2013 12:49:26 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 1:38:55 AM, Sitara wrote:
I get so annoyed by psuedotarians who dare say that they are libertarians. Libertarians oppose all of most government control, so that makes them prochoice on abortion, birth control, lighting up a doobie, and pretty much anything. Why am I a liberal? JK, I thought to add humor. How about your thoughts.

*I'm not Libertarian, but I'm going to tell you what you believe.

Libertarians do believe in at least some law, aka no murdering. Most would view abortion as murder.
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donald.keller
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10/31/2013 12:58:59 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 2:29:48 PM, drhead wrote:
At 10/30/2013 4:33:58 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 10/30/2013 1:38:55 AM, Sitara wrote:
I get so annoyed by psuedotarians who dare say that they are libertarians. Libertarians oppose all of most government control, so that makes them prochoice on abortion, birth control, lighting up a doobie, and pretty much anything. Why am I a liberal? JK, I thought to add humor. How about your thoughts.

Well if someone believed abortion is murder, then it'd not be necessarily libertarian to be pro choice, since that would be initiation of force.

Wouldn't taking residence in the womb without consent also be initiation of force?

No. That's a particularly one-sided way of viewing it. Seeing as your body isn't killing the child off, we can conclude it has your bodies consent.

Besides, in case you didn't know, no one under the age of 10 can be punished or even held accountable of breaking the law. Criminalizing him for being someone without consent isn't reasonable. That's what you are doing, claiming it doesn't matter because the child is (breaking said law here) but Legally a child of any age under 10 can not break a law.
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donald.keller
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10/31/2013 1:02:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 10/30/2013 8:57:29 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 10/30/2013 8:47:09 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 10/30/2013 3:21:26 PM, Stephen_Hawkins wrote:
At 10/30/2013 4:33:58 AM, sdavio wrote:
At 10/30/2013 1:38:55 AM, Sitara wrote:
I get so annoyed by psuedotarians who dare say that they are libertarians. Libertarians oppose all of most government control, so that makes them prochoice on abortion, birth control, lighting up a doobie, and pretty much anything. Why am I a liberal? JK, I thought to add humor. How about your thoughts.

Well if someone believed abortion is murder, then it'd not be necessarily libertarian to be pro choice, since that would be initiation of force.

I had this force, but Thomson's argument would invalidate this. The child would be trespassing on the parent, and as such a libertarian would have to say, if the maxim "One committing trespass on another's private property sacrifices their right to life" or "One infringing on another's private property loses all their rights" are justified. The unpleasant consequence, as many libertarian philosophers have noted, is that a twelve year old child, if they are dependent on the parent (and they surely are), may be left to die, if the parent simply does not really want to put up with them any more.

Excluding rape, it is not trespassing. When a person chooses to have sex, even if they use protection, they accept the risk of pregnancy. When you are taking medication, are you not consenting to the possibility of the listed side effects?

No, sue your doctor and the medical company. If you choose to dive into a shallow pool, that doesn't mean you consent to the head injury you'll probably suffer. Sue the pool owner!

If you know the pool is shallow (be it from a warning or common sense), than yes, you did consent to the possible injury.

An child under 10 can not, by legal, be held accountable for breaking a law (such as trespassing). So your argument isn't really relevant anyways.
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