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Silly FDR

mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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12/31/2009 3:58:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I just read this FDR quote which struck me as incredibly funny, and completely against all American values:

"Are we going to take the hands of the federal government completely off any effort to adjust the growing of national crops, and go right straight back to the old principle that every farmer is a lord of his own farm and can do anything he wants, raise anything, any old time, in any quantity, and sell any time he wants?" - FDR, when his agricultural program was shot down

Translation: "Are we going to end our tyrannical manipulation of the economy and turn back to actual capitalism?"

And we consider this man to be great?
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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12/31/2009 3:59:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 3:58:11 PM, mongeese wrote:
Translation: "Are we going to end our tyrannical manipulation of the economy and turn back to actual capitalism?"

And we consider this man to be great?

Yep, because not everyone believes in the gods of the free market. Some are pragmatists.
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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12/31/2009 4:07:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 3:58:11 PM, mongeese wrote:
And we consider this man to be great?

You can believe someone to be great even if you disagree with a few of their policies.
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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12/31/2009 4:29:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 3:59:20 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:58:11 PM, mongeese wrote:
Translation: "Are we going to end our tyrannical manipulation of the economy and turn back to actual capitalism?"

And we consider this man to be great?

Yep, because not everyone believes in the gods of the free market. Some are pragmatists.

Not everyone believes in the gods of interventionism. Some are pragmatists.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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12/31/2009 4:32:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 3:58:11 PM, mongeese wrote:
And we consider this man to be great?
Who's "we"?
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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12/31/2009 4:35:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 4:29:51 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:59:20 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:58:11 PM, mongeese wrote:
Translation: "Are we going to end our tyrannical manipulation of the economy and turn back to actual capitalism?"

And we consider this man to be great?

Yep, because not everyone believes in the gods of the free market. Some are pragmatists.

Not everyone believes in the gods of interventionism. Some are pragmatists.

That isn't even an answer.
LeafRod
Posts: 1,548
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12/31/2009 5:17:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 4:35:02 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/31/2009 4:29:51 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:59:20 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:58:11 PM, mongeese wrote:
Translation: "Are we going to end our tyrannical manipulation of the economy and turn back to actual capitalism?"

And we consider this man to be great?

Yep, because not everyone believes in the gods of the free market. Some are pragmatists.

Not everyone believes in the gods of interventionism. Some are pragmatists.

That isn't even an answer.

Did you expect one?
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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12/31/2009 5:20:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 4:32:50 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:58:11 PM, mongeese wrote:
And we consider this man to be great?
Who's "we"?

The uninformed Americans indoctrinated by government textbooks.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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12/31/2009 5:20:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 3:59:10 PM, Nags wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:58:11 PM, mongeese wrote:
And we consider this man to be great?

Speak for yourself.

"We" was probably a poor word to use. I meant the large majority of Americans.
patsox834
Posts: 406
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12/31/2009 5:23:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 5:17:03 PM, LeafRod wrote:
At 12/31/2009 4:35:02 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/31/2009 4:29:51 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:59:20 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:58:11 PM, mongeese wrote:
Translation: "Are we going to end our tyrannical manipulation of the economy and turn back to actual capitalism?"

And we consider this man to be great?

Yep, because not everyone believes in the gods of the free market. Some are pragmatists.

Not everyone believes in the gods of interventionism. Some are pragmatists.

That isn't even an answer.

Did you expect one?

"Define 'expect.'"

...anyway, yeah, that guy's a douche.
LeafRod
Posts: 1,548
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12/31/2009 5:28:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 5:20:07 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 12/31/2009 4:32:50 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:58:11 PM, mongeese wrote:
And we consider this man to be great?
Who's "we"?

The uninformed Americans indoctrinated by government textbooks.

You know, you and wjmelements like to say that you guys are being indoctrinated by textbooks, and then use that as a testament to your resilience. My response is, why are you guys such pansies [don't like that word, but profanity filter]? Seriously, no one is trying to indoctrinate you. Stop thinking everyone is out to get you. Most people are mature enough to understand that.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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12/31/2009 5:37:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 5:28:52 PM, LeafRod wrote:
At 12/31/2009 5:20:07 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 12/31/2009 4:32:50 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:58:11 PM, mongeese wrote:
And we consider this man to be great?
Who's "we"?

The uninformed Americans indoctrinated by government textbooks.

You know, you and wjmelements like to say that you guys are being indoctrinated by textbooks, and then use that as a testament to your resilience.
Stating facts is resilience?
My response is, why are you guys such pansies [don't like that word, but profanity filter]? Seriously, no one is trying to indoctrinate you.
Then why do the textbooks imply FDR to have gotten us out of the Great Depression, when he didn't?
Stop thinking everyone is out to get you. Most people are mature enough to understand that.
It's not everyone. It's just whatever textbook or person claims that FDR was a great president. And "out to get me"? Seriously? The government isn't out to get me. They just want everybody to conform to their politically correct principles.

Of course, you could just skip the ad hominems and instigate a debate.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/31/2009 5:42:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I lol when I read about "American values." Not all Americans have the same values, and just because a country was founded upon certain values doesn't mean that the values don't change. 'America' isn't an entity itself but rather comprised of a collective group, so if the majority of people do not believe in complete laissez faire capitalism (which it appears they don't) then how is it accurate to say that it's an American value? Slavery was an American value too, once upon a time.
President of DDO
LeafRod
Posts: 1,548
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12/31/2009 5:42:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I forgot you can 100% be sure that FDR didn't do anything.

You also share the (dumb) view with wjmelements that saying "ad hominem" actually means anything. I made my argument, so focus on that.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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12/31/2009 5:59:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 5:42:04 PM, LeafRod wrote:
You also share the (dumb) view with wjmelements that saying "ad hominem" actually means anything. I made my argument, so focus on that.

My response is, why are you guys such pansies [don't like that word, but profanity filter]? Seriously, no one is trying to indoctrinate you. Stop thinking everyone is out to get you. Most people are mature enough to understand that.

When that's the basis of your argument, what else are we to do? Your response was:
Ad hominem
Baseless assertion
Straw-man Demand
Ad hominem

None of that is helping intelligent discussion.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
LeafRod
Posts: 1,548
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12/31/2009 6:02:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
You could have just said "baseless assumption"—not that that would have been a particularly good response, but it's better than the wimpy cop-out that his labeling something as an attack.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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12/31/2009 6:03:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 5:42:04 PM, LeafRod wrote:
I forgot you can 100% be sure that FDR didn't do anything.

Actually, I wish he didn't do anything. Here's what he did do:
* Set minimum prices for goods, destroying competition.
* Establish standard employment, destroying competition.
* Destroy food, increasing the prices of food in a country of starving people.
* Permanently involve the Fed in massive agricultural subsidies and food destruction.
* Increase the power of unions, distorting the labor market and discouraging innovation.
* Divert capital from the private sector into the public sector, where profit-and-loss tests are unheard of.
* Buy votes through social projects.
* Restrict the powers of voices against his actions.
* Extend the power of the Fed to be able to regulate any kind of commerce (including the right to grow wheat for subsistence)
* Provoke Japan to attack Pearl Harbor, dragging America into WWII

You also share the (dumb) view with wjmelements that saying "ad hominem" actually means anything. I made my argument, so focus on that.

The time you spend making your ad hominems is no less than the time I spend pointing them out. Here's an idea: you stop commiting ad hominems, and I stop pointing them out.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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12/31/2009 7:54:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 5:17:03 PM, LeafRod wrote:
At 12/31/2009 4:35:02 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/31/2009 4:29:51 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:59:20 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:58:11 PM, mongeese wrote:
Translation: "Are we going to end our tyrannical manipulation of the economy and turn back to actual capitalism?"

And we consider this man to be great?

Yep, because not everyone believes in the gods of the free market. Some are pragmatists.

Not everyone believes in the gods of interventionism. Some are pragmatists.

That isn't even an answer.

Did you expect one?

Point taken.
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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12/31/2009 8:02:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 4:35:02 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/31/2009 4:29:51 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:59:20 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:58:11 PM, mongeese wrote:
Translation: "Are we going to end our tyrannical manipulation of the economy and turn back to actual capitalism?"

And we consider this man to be great?

Yep, because not everyone believes in the gods of the free market. Some are pragmatists.

Not everyone believes in the gods of interventionism. Some are pragmatists.

That isn't even an answer.

Sure it is. It's basic econ.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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12/31/2009 8:42:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 8:02:23 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/31/2009 4:35:02 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/31/2009 4:29:51 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:59:20 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:58:11 PM, mongeese wrote:
Translation: "Are we going to end our tyrannical manipulation of the economy and turn back to actual capitalism?"

And we consider this man to be great?

Yep, because not everyone believes in the gods of the free market. Some are pragmatists.

Not everyone believes in the gods of interventionism. Some are pragmatists.

That isn't even an answer.

Sure it is. It's basic econ.

All that you did was attempt to be clever by substituting in a different word. That isn't an answer. That's just a failed attempt at appearing witty.
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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12/31/2009 8:46:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 8:42:18 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/31/2009 8:02:23 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/31/2009 4:35:02 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/31/2009 4:29:51 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:59:20 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:58:11 PM, mongeese wrote:
Translation: "Are we going to end our tyrannical manipulation of the economy and turn back to actual capitalism?"

And we consider this man to be great?

Yep, because not everyone believes in the gods of the free market. Some are pragmatists.

Not everyone believes in the gods of interventionism. Some are pragmatists.

That isn't even an answer.

Sure it is. It's basic econ.

All that you did was attempt to be clever by substituting in a different word. That isn't an answer. That's just a failed attempt at appearing witty.

The burden of proof is on the FDR side to name one economic policy which he endorsed that lead to prosperity.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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12/31/2009 8:54:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 8:46:26 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/31/2009 8:42:18 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/31/2009 8:02:23 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/31/2009 4:35:02 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/31/2009 4:29:51 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:59:20 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:58:11 PM, mongeese wrote:
Translation: "Are we going to end our tyrannical manipulation of the economy and turn back to actual capitalism?"

And we consider this man to be great?

Yep, because not everyone believes in the gods of the free market. Some are pragmatists.

Not everyone believes in the gods of interventionism. Some are pragmatists.

That isn't even an answer.

Sure it is. It's basic econ.

All that you did was attempt to be clever by substituting in a different word. That isn't an answer. That's just a failed attempt at appearing witty.

The burden of proof is on the FDR side to name one economic policy which he endorsed that lead to prosperity.

There is an equal burden of proof on both sides; disproving one side doesn't make the other true. This is still irrelevant to his argument, though, which was that not everybody hails the free market as some kind of almighty savior.
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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12/31/2009 9:02:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 8:54:13 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/31/2009 8:46:26 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/31/2009 8:42:18 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/31/2009 8:02:23 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/31/2009 4:35:02 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/31/2009 4:29:51 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:59:20 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 12/31/2009 3:58:11 PM, mongeese wrote:
Translation: "Are we going to end our tyrannical manipulation of the economy and turn back to actual capitalism?"

And we consider this man to be great?

Yep, because not everyone believes in the gods of the free market. Some are pragmatists.

Not everyone believes in the gods of interventionism. Some are pragmatists.

That isn't even an answer.

Sure it is. It's basic econ.

All that you did was attempt to be clever by substituting in a different word. That isn't an answer. That's just a failed attempt at appearing witty.

The burden of proof is on the FDR side to name one economic policy which he endorsed that lead to prosperity.

There is an equal burden of proof on both sides; disproving one side doesn't make the other true. This is still irrelevant to his argument, though, which was that not everybody hails the free market as some kind of almighty savior.

Where is this everyone?
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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12/31/2009 9:03:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Hey, I consider FDR to probably be the greatest American president. For one, If it wasn't for his policies of "intervention" for lack of a better term America probably would have suffered alot longer and harder during the depression.
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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12/31/2009 9:09:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 9:03:39 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Hey, I consider FDR to probably be the greatest American president. For one, If it wasn't for his policies of "intervention" for lack of a better term America probably would have suffered alot longer and harder during the depression.

You must have forgotten about the internment of 110,000 Japanese-Americans. Enslaving them, putting them in ages for years... simply based on where they happened to be born. That's greatness for you.

Also, his economic policies were disastrous and lengthened, not shortened, the Great Depression.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/31/2009 9:22:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm not gonna defend most of what FDR did, but it was ultimately the people who wanted all of those policies implemented. Read your history. I don't remember the exact title but there was this book I read about the Great Depression filled with thousands upon thousands of letters to FDR (and his wife) begging for their help. The unemployment rate was something at like 25% when FDR took office and over 60% of the population struggled immensely. The people wanted and asked for those policies to be implemented. In a democratic republic like the U.S., we vote in candidates who represent our wants and needs. The people wanted the government's help. Am I saying it was the right thing to do? No -- I'm just saying that at the time, most people did, and that's why they supported him (obviously). It wasn't just "a few liberals" either -- it was nearly 2/3 of the population who supported those policies. If it wasn't him, they would have elected someone else to do the same thing. That's what happens when people are in charge of the government, you know. They run it at their will.
President of DDO
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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12/31/2009 9:25:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
In short, it's not fair to put the blame on FDR for those policies. Not only are there other parts of the government to blame (the president doesn't have total power, does he?), but it was ultimately the people themselves who asked for and received those policies. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been elected and re-elected.
President of DDO
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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12/31/2009 9:28:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/31/2009 9:22:11 PM, theLwerd wrote:
I'm not gonna defend most of what FDR did, but it was ultimately the people who wanted all of those policies implemented.
There is no such entity as the people. There is a 2/3 majority, which excludes 1/3 of all people in the country. Excluding even one disqualifies one from saying "the."

The fact that others are guilty as well does not remove a smidgen of FDR's own guilt.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.