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I need to be educated on libertarianism.

Ayyuba
Posts: 218
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11/9/2013 12:38:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Like I am not tryna set anything up for a fight, I just feel drawn to this philosophy, but there are wrinkles to be sorted out. Is anyone willing to help me? Honest iquiry.
So you wanna know all about Sitara, huh? Knowledge is power, and you want knowledge of me? With great power comes great responsibility, so I hope you understand what you're getting yourself into. Don't say I didn't warn you.
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ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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11/9/2013 12:44:31 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Sure. Just read about the principle of non-aggression and you'll be set.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

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InVinoVeritas
Posts: 59
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11/9/2013 1:57:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Well, libertarianism has roots in philosophy and economics.

If you want to learn about the philosophical foundations of libertarianism, I would read Locke's Two Treatises of Government, Nozick's Anarchy, State, and Utopia, Rand's The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged, and Mill's On Liberty.

If you want to learn about the economic foundations of libertarianism, I would read Friedman's Capitalism and Freedom or Free to Choose, Mises' Human Action: A Treatise on Economics, Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson, and Hayek's The Road to Serfdom.

I think you need to take on both approaches if you want to develop a full understanding and appreciation for libertarianism.

And, OP, if you would have to discuss/question specific issues within libertarianism, feel free to bring them up.
sdavio
Posts: 1,798
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11/10/2013 6:23:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/9/2013 12:38:40 PM, Ayyuba wrote:
Like I am not tryna set anything up for a fight, I just feel drawn to this philosophy, but there are wrinkles to be sorted out. Is anyone willing to help me? Honest iquiry.

Do you have any specific questions? What are the wrinkles?
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
Bannanawamajama
Posts: 125
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11/10/2013 7:59:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Do libertarians typically agree on their interpretations of issues or are there divisions? Like for example for abortion, I could see that Non-Agression principle being applied in both directions based on your perspective, so are there libertarians who argue for both sides?
sdavio
Posts: 1,798
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11/10/2013 9:24:38 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 7:59:13 AM, Bannanawamajama wrote:
Do libertarians typically agree on their interpretations of issues or are there divisions? Like for example for abortion, I could see that Non-Agression principle being applied in both directions based on your perspective, so are there libertarians who argue for both sides?

The debate in the case of abortion is generally about whether it is an act of aggression, but most I assume would agree that if it were classified as violent, it would then be immoral. Therefore it's neutral in regard to libertarian principles, and the debate is pretty much the same as for non-libertarians. The biggest divide however would be between minarchist libertarians, who believe a very limited government is necessary, and anarcho-capitalist libertarians, who advocate no societal authority whatsoever as ideal. Some characterise this as a negligible detail, and indeed one often leads to the other, but I would argue that it is a wide gulf; especially considering that most libertarians reach their conclusions from principle.
"Logic is the money of the mind." - Karl Marx
YYW
Posts: 36,234
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11/10/2013 9:32:39 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/9/2013 1:57:47 PM, InVinoVeritas wrote:
Well, libertarianism has roots in philosophy and economics.

If you want to learn about the philosophical foundations of libertarianism, I would read Locke's Two Treatises of Government, Nozick's Anarchy, State, and Utopia, Rand's The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged, and Mill's On Liberty.

If you want to learn about the economic foundations of libertarianism, I would read Friedman's Capitalism and Freedom or Free to Choose, Mises' Human Action: A Treatise on Economics, Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson, and Hayek's The Road to Serfdom.

I think you need to take on both approaches if you want to develop a full understanding and appreciation for libertarianism.

And, OP, if you would have to discuss/question specific issues within libertarianism, feel free to bring them up.

I often wonder when people who recommend books have actually read the books they recommend, or even if they have read them, if they understand them.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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11/10/2013 9:54:32 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 9:32:39 AM, YYW wrote:
At 11/9/2013 1:57:47 PM, InVinoVeritas wrote:
Well, libertarianism has roots in philosophy and economics.

If you want to learn about the philosophical foundations of libertarianism, I would read Locke's Two Treatises of Government, Nozick's Anarchy, State, and Utopia, Rand's The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged, and Mill's On Liberty.

If you want to learn about the economic foundations of libertarianism, I would read Friedman's Capitalism and Freedom or Free to Choose, Mises' Human Action: A Treatise on Economics, Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson, and Hayek's The Road to Serfdom.

I think you need to take on both approaches if you want to develop a full understanding and appreciation for libertarianism.

And, OP, if you would have to discuss/question specific issues within libertarianism, feel free to bring them up.

I often wonder when people who recommend books have actually read the books they recommend, or even if they have read them, if they understand them.

I think it's safe to assume that everyone is retarded.
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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11/10/2013 9:59:01 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 9:32:39 AM, YYW wrote:
At 11/9/2013 1:57:47 PM, InVinoVeritas wrote:
Well, libertarianism has roots in philosophy and economics.

If you want to learn about the philosophical foundations of libertarianism, I would read Locke's Two Treatises of Government, Nozick's Anarchy, State, and Utopia, Rand's The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged, and Mill's On Liberty.

If you want to learn about the economic foundations of libertarianism, I would read Friedman's Capitalism and Freedom or Free to Choose, Mises' Human Action: A Treatise on Economics, Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson, and Hayek's The Road to Serfdom.

I think you need to take on both approaches if you want to develop a full understanding and appreciation for libertarianism.

And, OP, if you would have to discuss/question specific issues within libertarianism, feel free to bring them up.

I often wonder when people who recommend books have actually read the books they recommend, or even if they have read them, if they understand them.

I think that question is all the more relevant in this case given *what* was recommended. For instance, I can't really see someone who reads Nozick (his early work like Anarchy, State, and Utopia) really caring for Rand. I also don't know of anyone who's actually read Human Action all the way through. Even the Ancaps from the glory days weren't that into it.

On the OP though, there are a million ways to approach libertarianism. The classics in political economy generally bend that way (Locke obvi, Smith, Mill). Though that stuff is generally boring and indicative of a philosophical landscape which altogether just doesn't exist anymore.

Then there's the resurgence in analytic libertarian political philosophy in the U.S. in the 70's. Nozick really is good in that sense and is probably the most respected recent libertarian (with the noted exception of Milton Friedman). Anarchy, State, and Utopia was admittedly a great exposition of minarchism though I know a few good articles disputing one of his primary theses (natural State formation) if yer interested. If the Nozick vein appeals to you then David Friedman's Machinery of Freedom might as well, though it dispenses with Nozick's radically ambiguous philosophical framework (he's radically utilitarian).

Rand really isn't anything to bother with and Rothbard's natural rights framework is only attractive if yer already a Thomist/Aristotelian. I personally liked Anthony de Jasay's "The State"- even if he's the most robotic writer I've ever encountered. Bryan Caplan is also good- though I don't think he's ever written a full book dealing with anarchism or libertarianism. His blog on Econlib is worth following though.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
YYW
Posts: 36,234
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11/10/2013 10:04:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 9:54:32 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
At 11/10/2013 9:32:39 AM, YYW wrote:
At 11/9/2013 1:57:47 PM, InVinoVeritas wrote:
Well, libertarianism has roots in philosophy and economics.

If you want to learn about the philosophical foundations of libertarianism, I would read Locke's Two Treatises of Government, Nozick's Anarchy, State, and Utopia, Rand's The Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged, and Mill's On Liberty.

If you want to learn about the economic foundations of libertarianism, I would read Friedman's Capitalism and Freedom or Free to Choose, Mises' Human Action: A Treatise on Economics, Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson, and Hayek's The Road to Serfdom.

I think you need to take on both approaches if you want to develop a full understanding and appreciation for libertarianism.

And, OP, if you would have to discuss/question specific issues within libertarianism, feel free to bring them up.

I often wonder when people who recommend books have actually read the books they recommend, or even if they have read them, if they understand them.

I think it's safe to assume that everyone is retarded.

Oh, no. Many people are quite clever. Some, however, are less so.
YYW
Posts: 36,234
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11/10/2013 10:06:22 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 9:59:01 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 11/10/2013 9:32:39 AM, YYW wrote:
I often wonder when people who recommend books have actually read the books they recommend, or even if they have read them, if they understand them.

I think that question is all the more relevant in this case given *what* was recommended.

I can always count on you to say more bluntly what I was implying ;)
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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11/10/2013 10:09:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 2:33:22 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
I would recommend, for a counter to libertarianism, reading utilitarianism.

They're not mutually incompatible. Also, lol@ people who take utilitarianism seriously.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
YYW
Posts: 36,234
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11/10/2013 10:11:54 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 10:09:54 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 11/10/2013 2:33:22 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
I would recommend, for a counter to libertarianism, reading utilitarianism.

They're not mutually incompatible.

Indeed.

Also, lol@ people who take utilitarianism seriously.

I like the way you think.
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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11/10/2013 10:15:00 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 10:00:52 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
shut up spinko

I think knowing where libertarians are coming from is more conductive to mutually beneficial discussion than just throwing out the usual half-arsed insults. For instance, I'm not dumb enough to dismiss it simply as "selfish" (except for Randians)- instead I can aim for what they *actually* believe, thus actually producing a dialogue instead of a series of non-sequiturs or just aggressively talking past one another.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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11/10/2013 10:17:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
The essence of libertarianism is the premise that no one has the right to initiate physical compulsion against anyone but criminals. All branches of (actual) libertarianism are predicated on this maxim, and diverge only in their interpretation and implementation of it in the real world.
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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11/10/2013 10:18:31 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 10:11:54 AM, YYW wrote:
At 11/10/2013 10:09:54 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 11/10/2013 2:33:22 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
I would recommend, for a counter to libertarianism, reading utilitarianism.

They're not mutually incompatible.

Indeed.

Also, lol@ people who take utilitarianism seriously.

I like the way you think.

I don't think one can go back to abstracting [read: Analytic] ethical systems after a heavy regiment of 60's French philosophy. But of course- thank you for the compliment ;)
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
YYW
Posts: 36,234
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11/10/2013 10:19:35 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 10:18:31 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 11/10/2013 10:11:54 AM, YYW wrote:
At 11/10/2013 10:09:54 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 11/10/2013 2:33:22 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
I would recommend, for a counter to libertarianism, reading utilitarianism.

They're not mutually incompatible.

Indeed.

Also, lol@ people who take utilitarianism seriously.

I like the way you think.

I don't think one can go back to abstracting [read: Analytic] ethical systems after a heavy regiment of 60's French philosophy. But of course- thank you for the compliment ;)

You've been delving deep into Foucault and Derrida?
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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11/10/2013 10:21:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 10:19:35 AM, YYW wrote:
At 11/10/2013 10:18:31 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 11/10/2013 10:11:54 AM, YYW wrote:
At 11/10/2013 10:09:54 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 11/10/2013 2:33:22 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
I would recommend, for a counter to libertarianism, reading utilitarianism.

They're not mutually incompatible.

Indeed.

Also, lol@ people who take utilitarianism seriously.

I like the way you think.

I don't think one can go back to abstracting [read: Analytic] ethical systems after a heavy regiment of 60's French philosophy. But of course- thank you for the compliment ;)

You've been delving deep into Foucault and Derrida?

Well yes. Would you think less of me if I included Deleuze in there as well?
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
YYW
Posts: 36,234
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11/10/2013 10:21:53 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 10:21:04 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 11/10/2013 10:19:35 AM, YYW wrote:
At 11/10/2013 10:18:31 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 11/10/2013 10:11:54 AM, YYW wrote:
At 11/10/2013 10:09:54 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 11/10/2013 2:33:22 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
I would recommend, for a counter to libertarianism, reading utilitarianism.

They're not mutually incompatible.

Indeed.

Also, lol@ people who take utilitarianism seriously.

I like the way you think.

I don't think one can go back to abstracting [read: Analytic] ethical systems after a heavy regiment of 60's French philosophy. But of course- thank you for the compliment ;)

You've been delving deep into Foucault and Derrida?

Well yes. Would you think less of me if I included Deleuze in there as well?

No, but you know where my affections for French philosophy reside... lol
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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11/10/2013 10:24:12 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 10:17:04 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
The essence of libertarianism is the premise that no one has the right to initiate physical compulsion against anyone but criminals. All branches of (actual) libertarianism are predicated on this maxim, and diverge only in their interpretation and implementation of it in the real world.

Yer definition is faulty.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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11/10/2013 10:25:02 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 10:15:00 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 11/10/2013 10:00:52 AM, AnDoctuir wrote:
shut up spinko

I think knowing where libertarians are coming from is more conductive to mutually beneficial discussion than just throwing out the usual half-arsed insults. For instance, I'm not dumb enough to dismiss it simply as "selfish" (except for Randians)- instead I can aim for what they *actually* believe, thus actually producing a dialogue instead of a series of non-sequiturs or just aggressively talking past one another.

I was joke man. What you've got to realise though is that people are retarded, that they have no problem spouting absolute bullsh*t over and over again, that argumentum ad populum is god. You will never be an authority, no one will, you're just words. What matters is the force of those words.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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11/10/2013 10:25:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 10:09:54 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 11/10/2013 2:33:22 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
I would recommend, for a counter to libertarianism, reading utilitarianism.

They're not mutually incompatible. Also, lol@ people who take utilitarianism seriously.

Maybe not for practical libertarians. But I don't see how libertarian morality and utilitarianism could coexist when one is based on the idea of individual rights and the other holds the collective as the standard against which morality is judged.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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11/10/2013 10:26:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 10:24:12 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 11/10/2013 10:17:04 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
The essence of libertarianism is the premise that no one has the right to initiate physical compulsion against anyone but criminals. All branches of (actual) libertarianism are predicated on this maxim, and diverge only in their interpretation and implementation of it in the real world.

Yer definition is faulty.

Why? Because it doesn't accommodate for your esoteric anarchist absurdities?
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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11/10/2013 10:27:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 10:25:20 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/10/2013 10:09:54 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 11/10/2013 2:33:22 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
I would recommend, for a counter to libertarianism, reading utilitarianism.

They're not mutually incompatible. Also, lol@ people who take utilitarianism seriously.

Maybe not for practical libertarians. But I don't see how libertarian morality and utilitarianism could coexist when one is based on the idea of individual rights and the other holds the collective as the standard against which morality is judged.

This is interesting coming from you. Aren't you a minarchist because you find anarchism 'unworkable'?
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,242
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11/10/2013 10:34:20 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 10:27:49 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 11/10/2013 10:25:20 AM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 11/10/2013 10:09:54 AM, Noumena wrote:
At 11/10/2013 2:33:22 AM, Citrakayah wrote:
I would recommend, for a counter to libertarianism, reading utilitarianism.

They're not mutually incompatible. Also, lol@ people who take utilitarianism seriously.

Maybe not for practical libertarians. But I don't see how libertarian morality and utilitarianism could coexist when one is based on the idea of individual rights and the other holds the collective as the standard against which morality is judged.

This is interesting coming from you. Aren't you a minarchist because you find anarchism 'unworkable'?

I'm an advocate of capitalism, not out of practical necessity, but for its accordance with the morality of life (I assume that's what you were asking about?)
AnDoctuir
Posts: 11,060
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11/10/2013 10:39:42 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
Basically dylan is a little bitch trying to control life. It's a case of the abused becoming the abuser.