Total Posts:10|Showing Posts:1-10
Jump to topic:

Harms of Domestic Surveillance by the NSA

islandersfan
Posts: 3
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/10/2013 5:20:40 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
The Public Forum Resolution for the month of November is Resolved: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. I had my first tournament of the year (and first ever) yesterday (Saturday). After doing extensive research since receiving the resolution, I was confident in both sides, although I found there was an obvious advantage to the Pro side. I saw this mainly because the Pro side pointed to prevented terrorist attacks, whereas in the 2 out of the four rounds (preliminaries) my partner and I were the Con, we found ourselves digging deeper into a hole each time. The argument that we presented was that the programs are prone to abuse (which both times was not refuted), the programs do not yield enough results to continue the program (which got shot down, not only because we were presenting the amount of terrorist attacks that have occurred since 9/11, but we were also not providing a counter for the 13 attacks prevented, which there is, as the 13 was not correct, as General Keith Alexander later stated that it was incorrect) and that these programs were unconstitutional (which the Pro team would often counter with many other examples proving that the constitution upheld many acts before such as the 3/5 compromise, and slavery, so the Constitution is a living document that changes with culture, and now, it would be in the best benefit if it was changed). So, when my partner and I looked at the ballots at the end, we saw we went 2-2. We won both pro cases.... and lost both con. This is mostly due to the lack of harms we provided the judge with, as it said on both ballots, the Con did not supply any harms. SO, what are some harms to the domestic surveillance program that can be supported by facts? For example, the abuse one is a good one (at least in my opinion, because I found a harm that can be used, that the employees have the potential to use these programs to blackmail people, like "potential love interests". Anything would be great! Thanks!
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/10/2013 10:16:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
http://www.debate.org...
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
imabench
Posts: 21,220
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/10/2013 10:31:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 5:20:40 PM, islandersfan wrote:
The Public Forum Resolution for the month of November is Resolved: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms.

You dont have the authority to declare what the resolution for the month is.....

I had my first tournament of the year (and first ever) yesterday (Saturday). After doing extensive research since receiving the resolution, I was confident in both sides, although I found there was an obvious advantage to the Pro side. I saw this mainly because the Pro side pointed to prevented terrorist attacks, whereas in the 2 out of the four rounds (preliminaries) my partner and I were the Con, we found ourselves digging deeper into a hole each time. The argument that we presented was that the programs are prone to abuse (which both times was not refuted), the programs do not yield enough results to continue the program (which got shot down, not only because we were presenting the amount of terrorist attacks that have occurred since 9/11, but we were also not providing a counter for the 13 attacks prevented, which there is, as the 13 was not correct, as General Keith Alexander later stated that it was incorrect) and that these programs were unconstitutional (which the Pro team would often counter with many other examples proving that the constitution upheld many acts before such as the 3/5 compromise, and slavery, so the Constitution is a living document that changes with culture, and now, it would be in the best benefit if it was changed). So, when my partner and I looked at the ballots at the end, we saw we went 2-2. We won both pro cases.... and lost both con. This is mostly due to the lack of harms we provided the judge with, as it said on both ballots, the Con did not supply any harms.

Dude, NOBODY CARES

SO, what are some harms to the domestic surveillance program that can be supported by facts? For example, the abuse one is a good one (at least in my opinion, because I found a harm that can be used, that the employees have the potential to use these programs to blackmail people, like "potential love interests". Anything would be great! Thanks!
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
thett3
Posts: 14,349
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/10/2013 10:31:35 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
I have neither the time nor motivation to write your case for you, but I will tell you that I judged this topic and most of the time the Con lost it was because they didn't react properly. You have to frame the debate to where rights violations take precedence over the relatively small (in the grand scheme) amount of lives saved. Your opponents will argue that rights can be given back but life can, and it's up to you to counter that. Rights *can* be given back, sure, but is that really a justification for their violation and is it actually likely to happen? How often historically has the government actually given back rights it's seized? Go find out the answers to those questions.

This topic is basically the age old Liberty v. Security debate. There's a wealth of literature for both sides.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/10/2013 10:41:33 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 10:31:29 PM, imabench wrote:
At 11/10/2013 5:20:40 PM, islandersfan wrote:
The Public Forum Resolution for the month of November is Resolved: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms.

You dont have the authority to declare what the resolution for the month is.....

haha he isn't declaring anything... It's the NFLs public forum topic for November

http://www.nationalforensicleague.org...
Debate.org Moderator
imabench
Posts: 21,220
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/10/2013 10:47:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 10:41:33 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 11/10/2013 10:31:29 PM, imabench wrote:
At 11/10/2013 5:20:40 PM, islandersfan wrote:
The Public Forum Resolution for the month of November is Resolved: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms.

You dont have the authority to declare what the resolution for the month is.....

haha he isn't declaring anything... It's the NFLs public forum topic for November

http://www.nationalforensicleague.org...

OOOOOHHHHHH

Well he should have specified that
Kevin24018 : "He's just so mean it makes me want to ball up my fists and stamp on the ground"
Geogeer: "Nobody is dumb enough to become my protege."

7/14/16 = The Presidency Dies

DDO: THE MOVIE = http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...

VP of DDO from Dec 14th 2014 to Jan 1st 2015
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/10/2013 10:49:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 10:47:50 PM, imabench wrote:
At 11/10/2013 10:41:33 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 11/10/2013 10:31:29 PM, imabench wrote:
At 11/10/2013 5:20:40 PM, islandersfan wrote:
The Public Forum Resolution for the month of November is Resolved: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms.

You dont have the authority to declare what the resolution for the month is.....

haha he isn't declaring anything... It's the NFLs public forum topic for November

http://www.nationalforensicleague.org...

OOOOOHHHHHH

Well he should have specified that

"The Public Forum Resolution for the month of November is...."

You'll see members posting things like this occasionally.... It's almost always related to the NFL, or because their school is doing a specific topic.
Debate.org Moderator
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/11/2013 11:03:11 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 10:31:35 PM, thett3 wrote:
I have neither the time nor motivation to write your case for you, but I will tell you that I judged this topic and most of the time the Con lost it was because they didn't react properly. You have to frame the debate to where rights violations take precedence over the relatively small (in the grand scheme) amount of lives saved. Your opponents will argue that rights can be given back but life can, and it's up to you to counter that. Rights *can* be given back, sure, but is that really a justification for their violation and is it actually likely to happen? How often historically has the government actually given back rights it's seized? Go find out the answers to those questions.

This topic is basically the age old Liberty v. Security debate. There's a wealth of literature for both sides.

That's funny. I was at a round robin tournament out in Southern VA last weekend, and somehow I got stuck judging PF despite being in the LD pool. I picked up Pro 7 times to Con's 12. I thought that the "Big Brother is Watching You" Orwellian mentality worked in Con's favor, even though my personal beliefs are more in line with the Pro side. Interesting that you would have the exact opposite experience...I guess it's just the difference in leagues and styles.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
slo1
Posts: 4,353
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/11/2013 11:27:49 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/10/2013 5:20:40 PM, islandersfan wrote:
The Public Forum Resolution for the month of November is Resolved: The benefits of domestic surveillance by the NSA outweigh the harms. I had my first tournament of the year (and first ever) yesterday (Saturday). After doing extensive research since receiving the resolution, I was confident in both sides, although I found there was an obvious advantage to the Pro side. I saw this mainly because the Pro side pointed to prevented terrorist attacks, whereas in the 2 out of the four rounds (preliminaries) my partner and I were the Con, we found ourselves digging deeper into a hole each time. The argument that we presented was that the programs are prone to abuse (which both times was not refuted), the programs do not yield enough results to continue the program (which got shot down, not only because we were presenting the amount of terrorist attacks that have occurred since 9/11, but we were also not providing a counter for the 13 attacks prevented, which there is, as the 13 was not correct, as General Keith Alexander later stated that it was incorrect) and that these programs were unconstitutional (which the Pro team would often counter with many other examples proving that the constitution upheld many acts before such as the 3/5 compromise, and slavery, so the Constitution is a living document that changes with culture, and now, it would be in the best benefit if it was changed). So, when my partner and I looked at the ballots at the end, we saw we went 2-2. We won both pro cases.... and lost both con. This is mostly due to the lack of harms we provided the judge with, as it said on both ballots, the Con did not supply any harms. SO, what are some harms to the domestic surveillance program that can be supported by facts? For example, the abuse one is a good one (at least in my opinion, because I found a harm that can be used, that the employees have the potential to use these programs to blackmail people, like "potential love interests". Anything would be great! Thanks!

It is always tough to argue con on that as it has to rely on some type of slippery slope argument.

Some thoughts:

1. The NSA's job is to catch people who would do harm to the US, not protect individual rights, thus they will always be more aggressive than what allowed. FISA has self reported they deny or alter 25% of NSA requests to the courts.

http://www.usnews.com....

2. In conjunction with #1 the NSA being the mass collector and consumer of the data will be aggressive. Possible to argue that OK to collect but need fire wall between agency that collects and consume so properly watched via FISA?

3. The other area to really discredit is the idea that the current surveillance system stopped any terrorist attacks. There has never been a definitive release of enough information on how or when they analyzed the mass data they collected that gave them insight that a person was plotting a terrorist attack. It is still a secret as to how they used that data.

4. What harm has it caused now that we know NSA put a secret back door in private software such as VPN software or can intercept SSL connections? It can be argued that these secret back doors can be found and manipulated by hackers with more nefarious plans, which contributes tot he billions of dollars lost due to hackers who steal money, customer info, and secrets. I would not even be surprised if many of the commercial VPN products that they have access to are used by many government agencies.

Really, how can they expect that China or other states do not know about these types of backdoors and techniques they use? The entire process to collect data from secured systems probably makes our high value data easier for other nations to collect.

In other words, it may protect us to terrorist attacks, but what risks is it exposing us to?

Security is very tangible. It is always tough to argue the other side. People will always value security more than freedom, unfortunately. On the other hand when you are ducking bullets or hoping a bomb is not dropped on you, security helps you stay alive longer than freedom does.
islandersfan
Posts: 3
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/11/2013 6:02:05 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Thanks to everyone for the help.. I would also like to state that I am not asking for someone to "write my case for me". My partner and I have done extensive research, and we were looking mostly for warrants for the contentions I have. I will never ask someone to do anything like this for me, but thanks to anyone who helped.