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When Does Ted Cruz Get His Apology?

GeoLaureate8
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11/15/2013 9:07:27 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
So, When Does Ted Cruz Get His Apology?
by Joel B. Pollak
15 Nov 2013


That crazy Ted Cruz. The Texas freshman Senator (R-Tea Party) tried to defund Obamacare, then accepted a one-year delay in the individual mandate as a compromise position. Obama and the Democrats held all the cards. So Cruz caved--it was only a matter of time, right?--and Republicans got blamed for everything.

What wouldn't Barack Obama give to be able to wind back the clock to late September and accept Ted Cruz's offer of a one-year delay--in exchange, say, for a promise not to block immigration reform?

It also would have saved Obama the hideous--and global--embarrassment of Obamacare's failure--for a while, anyway.

Yes, Cruz's strategy was flawed because defunding seemed nearly impossible, and because he struggled to unite the GOP. But he made it absolutely clear that Republicans had zero ownership of Obamacare--a fact that would not have been as obvious had the GOP meekly funded the program. He set down a bright marker. And was mocked. When does he get his apology?

http://www.breitbart.com...
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
TheHitchslap
Posts: 1,231
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11/16/2013 10:20:15 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/15/2013 9:07:27 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
So, When Does Ted Cruz Get His Apology?

Never!

by Joel B. Pollak
15 Nov 2013


That crazy Ted Cruz. The Texas freshman Senator (R-Tea Party) tried to defund Obamacare, then accepted a one-year delay in the individual mandate as a compromise position. Obama and the Democrats held all the cards. So Cruz caved--it was only a matter of time, right?--and Republicans got blamed for everything.

Because they were idiots who honestly thought they could get a delay.

What wouldn't Barack Obama give to be able to wind back the clock to late September and accept Ted Cruz's offer of a one-year delay--in exchange, say, for a promise not to block immigration reform?

Uhh ... his flagship legislation for a negotiation? Yeah right ...

You realize the Dems are just flaunting Medicare Part D right now right?

It also would have saved Obama the hideous--and global--embarrassment of Obamacare's failure--for a while, anyway.

But the world is laughing at the failure of Tea Party Republicans who shut down the government. Seen the international headlines?
BTW most of the world has universal healthcare ... so ... yeah .. it ain't the world laughing at dems ...

Yes, Cruz's strategy was flawed because defunding seemed nearly impossible,
It WAS impossible
and because he struggled to unite the GOP.
LOL no. Half of the GOP said it was a stupid idea and would blow up back in their faces (McCain)
But he made it absolutely clear that Republicans had zero ownership of Obamacare--a fact that would not have been as obvious had the GOP meekly funded the program. He set down a bright marker. And was mocked. When does he get his apology?

Never, due to the fact that right after that filibuster, he VOTED AGAINST HIMSELF

http://freakoutnation.com...

http://www.breitbart.com...

2/10 will not listen.
Thank you for voting!
YYW
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11/16/2013 10:23:16 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/15/2013 9:07:27 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
So, When Does Ted Cruz Get His Apology?

When hell freezes over.
Tsar of DDO
Wnope
Posts: 6,924
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11/16/2013 7:59:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Apology for inducing a government shutdown with a poison pill with the sole intent of promoting his own primary run (against the wishes of his party leaders)?

Yeah....
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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11/16/2013 10:16:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 10:23:16 AM, YYW wrote:
At 11/15/2013 9:07:27 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
So, When Does Ted Cruz Get His Apology?

When hell freezes over.

Climate change sure isn't helping.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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11/17/2013 2:13:13 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/16/2013 7:59:37 PM, Wnope wrote:
Apology for inducing a government shutdown

It was a 15% slimdown of an overbloated Federal government. It should be applauded.

with a poison pill

A pill so poisonous that all the Democrats including Obama want it?

Ted Cruz was offering a big juicy steak, not a poison pill, but because Obama is arrogant and stubborn he didn't want to appear weak and turned down the offer.

Ted Cruz first asked for a defund which would have only delayed discretionary spending for a year. *Gasp*

Then on the second day he asked for a delay of the individual mandate and give Americans the same exemption he gave big corporations.

Then by the fourth day, all Republicans asked for was for Congress to be forced to live under Obamacare like everybody else rather than exempting themselves from the law they passed.

So don't give me the bullsh!t that the shutdown was over Republicans calling for a repeal of his signature legislation or not passing a budget.

The fact is Obama Reid kept the shutdown going because they didn't want to do what they are now clamoring to do now.

It was a poison pill back then but a lifesaver today. Typical Lib hypocrisy.

with the sole intent of promoting his own primary run (against the wishes of his party leaders)?

Politicians engage in politics what's new. To be fair, Ted Cruz actually does the right thing even if it means sacrificing his own numbers and results in helping the other side.

His critics said, why didn't you just let Obamacare roll out, fail, and let Democrats take the heat. His answer is, real Americans are suffering because of Obamacare and it would be wrong to let them get steamrolled for your own benefit, reelection, or poll numbers and he's right.

He points out that doing the right is what matters, the politics will sort itself out.

The best move politically would be for him to step out of the way, not try to defund, and let Dems take the fall. The moral thing to do would be stand firm in front of the moving trainwreck and put your hand out like superman even if you get crushed and called the bad guy.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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11/17/2013 9:03:51 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/17/2013 2:13:13 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/16/2013 7:59:37 PM, Wnope wrote:
Apology for inducing a government shutdown

It was a 15% slimdown of an overbloated Federal government. It should be applauded.

That's debatable.

with a poison pill

A pill so poisonous that all the Democrats including Obama want it?

Ted Cruz was offering a big juicy steak, not a poison pill, but because Obama is arrogant and stubborn he didn't want to appear weak and turned down the offer.

Ted Cruz first asked for a defund which would have only delayed discretionary spending for a year. *Gasp*

Feeding the pigeons.

Then on the second day he asked for a delay of the individual mandate and give Americans the same exemption he gave big corporations.

Then by the fourth day, all Republicans asked for was for Congress to be forced to live under Obamacare like everybody else rather than exempting themselves from the law they passed.

So don't give me the bullsh!t that the shutdown was over Republicans calling for a repeal of his signature legislation or not passing a budget.

The fact is Obama Reid kept the shutdown going because they didn't want to do what they are now clamoring to do now.

LOL WHAT? Obama was constantly publicly open to the negotiations for an end to the shutdown, and the right wouldn't have it!

It was a poison pill back then but a lifesaver today. Typical Lib hypocrisy.

with the sole intent of promoting his own primary run (against the wishes of his party leaders)?

Politicians engage in politics what's new. To be fair, Ted Cruz actually does the right thing even if it means sacrificing his own numbers and results in helping the other side.

His critics said, why didn't you just let Obamacare roll out, fail, and let Democrats take the heat. His answer is, real Americans are suffering because of Obamacare and it would be wrong to let them get steamrolled for your own benefit, reelection, or poll numbers and he's right.

He points out that doing the right is what matters, the politics will sort itself out.

The best move politically would be for him to step out of the way, not try to defund, and let Dems take the fall. The moral thing to do would be stand firm in front of the moving trainwreck and put your hand out like superman even if you get crushed and called the bad guy.

Politics and morals... that hasn't done very much good lately with the right trying to force morals into their policies.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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11/17/2013 4:53:55 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/17/2013 9:03:51 AM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 11/17/2013 2:13:13 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
The best move politically would be for him to step out of the way, not try to defund, and let Dems take the fall. The moral thing to do would be stand firm in front of the moving trainwreck and put your hand out like superman even if you get crushed and called the bad guy.

Politics and morals... that hasn't done very much good lately with the right trying to force morals into their policies.

The Founding Fathers were strongly influenced by morals and hated tyranny. George Washington blew off heads over a 3% tax. Obamacare is a $2.1 trillion dollar tax so if anything Ted Cruz is rather mild in his approach by comparison yet he's viewed as extreme.

And let's be clear, the Left is the one who tries to impose its morals through government force. The Right wants to get government out of our lives and let us live. The Left wants to grow the size of government and put its tentacles in every aspect of our lives and now wants to come between people and their doctors.

Ted Cruz and Rand Paul aren't trying to pass laws mandating that everyone go to church on Sunday, they are trying to get rid of laws and scale back government.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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11/17/2013 4:57:24 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/17/2013 4:53:55 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/17/2013 9:03:51 AM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 11/17/2013 2:13:13 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
The best move politically would be for him to step out of the way, not try to defund, and let Dems take the fall. The moral thing to do would be stand firm in front of the moving trainwreck and put your hand out like superman even if you get crushed and called the bad guy.

Politics and morals... that hasn't done very much good lately with the right trying to force morals into their policies.

The Founding Fathers were strongly influenced by morals and hated tyranny. George Washington blew off heads over a 3% tax. Obamacare is a $2.1 trillion dollar tax so if anything Ted Cruz is rather mild in his approach by comparison yet he's viewed as extreme.

That was 230+ years ago.

And let's be clear, the Left is the one who tries to impose its morals through government force. The Right wants to get government out of our lives and let us live. The Left wants to grow the size of government and put its tentacles in every aspect of our lives and now wants to come between people and their doctors.

Uh huh... all of that anti-gay rights and talking about the end of days isn't morally founded at all... okay.

Ted Cruz and Rand Paul aren't trying to pass laws mandating that everyone go to church on Sunday, they are trying to get rid of laws and scale back government.

That isn't always a good idea. Sometimes more government is a good thing.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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11/17/2013 6:12:47 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/17/2013 4:57:24 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 11/17/2013 4:53:55 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
The Founding Fathers were strongly influenced by morals and hated tyranny. George Washington blew off heads over a 3% tax. Obamacare is a $2.1 trillion dollar tax so if anything Ted Cruz is rather mild in his approach by comparison yet he's viewed as extreme.

That was 230+ years ago.

How does that counter anything I said.

And let's be clear, the Left is the one who tries to impose its morals through government force. The Right wants to get government out of our lives and let us live. The Left wants to grow the size of government and put its tentacles in every aspect of our lives and now wants to come between people and their doctors.

Uh huh... all of that anti-gay rights

Gays aren't demanding rights, they already have the same rights as everybody else. Gays are asking for a government stamp of approval and tax benefits.

and talking about the end of days isn't morally founded at all... okay.

Christine O'Donnel, Todd Akin, and Mourdock didn't win. Get over it. That's not the Republican message, nor are any high profile Republicans talking like that.

Mitch McConnell, Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, etc. are not talking like that. You're talking nonsense.

Ted Cruz and Rand Paul aren't trying to pass laws mandating that everyone go to church on Sunday, they are trying to get rid of laws and scale back government.

That isn't always a good idea. Sometimes more government is a good thing.

"Most bad government has grown out of too much government."
-- Thomas Jefferson
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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11/17/2013 6:21:36 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/17/2013 6:12:47 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/17/2013 4:57:24 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 11/17/2013 4:53:55 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
The Founding Fathers were strongly influenced by morals and hated tyranny. George Washington blew off heads over a 3% tax. Obamacare is a $2.1 trillion dollar tax so if anything Ted Cruz is rather mild in his approach by comparison yet he's viewed as extreme.

That was 230+ years ago.

How does that counter anything I said.

Everything was more based around morals (that is to say, religion) back then.

And let's be clear, the Left is the one who tries to impose its morals through government force. The Right wants to get government out of our lives and let us live. The Left wants to grow the size of government and put its tentacles in every aspect of our lives and now wants to come between people and their doctors.

Uh huh... all of that anti-gay rights

Gays aren't demanding rights, they already have the same rights as everybody else. Gays are asking for a government stamp of approval and tax benefits.

Tax benefits aren't a right?

and talking about the end of days isn't morally founded at all... okay.

Christine O'Donnel, Todd Akin, and Mourdock didn't win. Get over it. That's not the Republican message, nor are any high profile Republicans talking like that.

Mitch McConnell, Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, etc. are not talking like that. You're talking nonsense.

You were generalizing the left, so I generalized the right.

Ted Cruz and Rand Paul aren't trying to pass laws mandating that everyone go to church on Sunday, they are trying to get rid of laws and scale back government.

That isn't always a good idea. Sometimes more government is a good thing.

"Most bad government has grown out of too much government."
-- Thomas Jefferson

That doesn't really counter what I said. Just because most of A is caused by B doesn't mean that B will never cause NOT A.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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11/17/2013 8:52:02 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/17/2013 6:21:36 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 11/17/2013 6:12:47 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
How does that counter anything I said.

Everything was more based around morals (that is to say, religion) back then.

There's a difference between principles of governance and liberty and the moral doctrines of religion. Cleary, in the case of the Founders and Ted Cruz, I was referring to the moral principles of governance and liberty.

Also, let me note that the Founders, born out of the Enlightenment, were very anti-clergy, anti-papacy, and anti-dogma so to suggest that because the Founders were from an era where religion was dominant that therefore they were religious, that is simply absurd.

Gays aren't demanding rights, they already have the same rights as everybody else. Gays are asking for a government stamp of approval and tax benefits.

Tax benefits aren't a right?

A tax benefit given to people based on personal lifestyle choices? WTF. Hell no that's not a right. There should be no tax benefits period because taxes should be flat across the board. In fact, the Income Tax should be abolished period so we shouldn't even be having this discussion.

Christine O'Donnel, Todd Akin, and Mourdock didn't win. Get over it. That's not the Republican message, nor are any high profile Republicans talking like that.

Mitch McConnell, Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, etc. are not talking like that. You're talking nonsense.

You were generalizing the left, so I generalized the right.

I generalized the Left? 100% of Democrats voted for and supported Obamacare!! Mourdock is the only Republican who believes in "legitimate rape."

Democrats and Liberals believe in government solutions, centralized government, central planning, and big government. That's not a generalization, that's just a fact.

"Most bad government has grown out of too much government."
-- Thomas Jefferson

That doesn't really counter what I said. Just because most of A is caused by B doesn't mean that B will never cause NOT A.

There's exceptions to everything. B will in most cases cause A.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
themohawkninja
Posts: 816
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11/17/2013 8:59:23 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/17/2013 8:52:02 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/17/2013 6:21:36 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 11/17/2013 6:12:47 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
How does that counter anything I said.

Everything was more based around morals (that is to say, religion) back then.

There's a difference between principles of governance and liberty and the moral doctrines of religion. Cleary, in the case of the Founders and Ted Cruz, I was referring to the moral principles of governance and liberty.

Also, let me note that the Founders, born out of the Enlightenment, were very anti-clergy, anti-papacy, and anti-dogma so to suggest that because the Founders were from an era where religion was dominant that therefore they were religious, that is simply absurd.

I understand that, but there are clear religions undertones in many of our basic laws, and Constitution. Not to mention the various religious figures on government buildings.

Gays aren't demanding rights, they already have the same rights as everybody else. Gays are asking for a government stamp of approval and tax benefits.

Tax benefits aren't a right?

A tax benefit given to people based on personal lifestyle choices? WTF. Hell no that's not a right. There should be no tax benefits period because taxes should be flat across the board. In fact, the Income Tax should be abolished period so we shouldn't even be having this discussion.

Since the one prerequisite to gay marriage isn't a choice, I wouldn't completely call it a 'lifestyle choice'.

Also, how would you pay for government without income tax?

Christine O'Donnel, Todd Akin, and Mourdock didn't win. Get over it. That's not the Republican message, nor are any high profile Republicans talking like that.

Mitch McConnell, Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, etc. are not talking like that. You're talking nonsense.

You were generalizing the left, so I generalized the right.

I generalized the Left? 100% of Democrats voted for and supported Obamacare!! Mourdock is the only Republican who believes in "legitimate rape."

Democrats and Liberals believe in government solutions, centralized government, central planning, and big government. That's not a generalization, that's just a fact.

"Most bad government has grown out of too much government."
-- Thomas Jefferson

That doesn't really counter what I said. Just because most of A is caused by B doesn't mean that B will never cause NOT A.

There's exceptions to everything. B will in most cases cause A.

Yeah, the New Deal was a nice exception.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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11/17/2013 9:38:44 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/17/2013 8:59:23 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 11/17/2013 8:52:02 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
There's a difference between principles of governance and liberty and the moral doctrines of religion. Cleary, in the case of the Founders and Ted Cruz, I was referring to the moral principles of governance and liberty.

Also, let me note that the Founders, born out of the Enlightenment, were very anti-clergy, anti-papacy, and anti-dogma so to suggest that because the Founders were from an era where religion was dominant that therefore they were religious, that is simply absurd.

I understand that, but there are clear religions undertones in many of our basic laws, and Constitution. Not to mention the various religious figures on government buildings.

Reference to God and natural rights =/= religious undertones.

God could be anything that people believe is supreme, Jesus, the Universe, Brahman, Allah, Tao, etc. anything but the government. It is a political doctrine that our natural rights are derived from something divine, not something granted by government.

A tax benefit given to people based on personal lifestyle choices? WTF. Hell no that's not a right. There should be no tax benefits period because taxes should be flat across the board. In fact, the Income Tax should be abolished period so we shouldn't even be having this discussion.

Since the one prerequisite to gay marriage isn't a choice, I wouldn't completely call it a 'lifestyle choice'.

Choosing to court a mate, choosing to marry, choosing to start a family, choosing to live with a mate, those are all lifestyle choices. Other people choose to be single, some choose to be swingers.

Also, how would you pay for government without income tax?

"There is a good many years we didn"t have an income tax other than for a brief period under Lincoln, we didn"t have an income tax until 1914, and we did quite well. But the question isn"t so much how you do it, it"s how much do you want to pay for? If you want a welfare system, if you want the entitlement system to continue, if you want corporate welfare, the military industrial complex and foreign adventurism and policing the world, you can"t do it, not only do you need the income tax, you need to borrow, you need to print the money, so it"s an attitude about government and I think the most important question that we have to ask, is what should the role of government be?"
-- Ron Paul

"An income tax is the most degrading and totalitarian of all possible taxes.

Its implementation wrongly suggests that the government owns the lives and labor of the citizens it is supposed to represent. Tellingly, 'a heavy progressive or graduated income tax' is Plank #2 of the Communist Manifesto."
-- Ron Paul

I live in a state with no income tax, no corporate tax, no food tax, just a sales tax.

I generalized the Left? 100% of Democrats voted for and supported Obamacare!! Mourdock is the only Republican who believes in "legitimate rape."

Democrats and Liberals believe in government solutions, centralized government, central planning, and big government. That's not a generalization, that's just a fact.

There's exceptions to everything. B will in most cases cause A.

Yeah, the New Deal was a nice exception.

The New Deal is garbage. The New Deal is a massive failure of big government. Is that what you champion as great policy?

"Virtually every single one of FDR"s "New Deal" policies made things even worse and prolonged the Depression.

FDR and his advisors mistakenly believed that the Depression was caused by low prices, therefore, high prices"enforced by threats of violence, coercion and intimidation by the state"would be the "solution." Moreover, it is hardly a secret that if less production takes place, fewer workers will be needed by employers and unemployment will subsequently be higher. Thus, the First New Deal could not possibly have been anything but a gigantic unemployment-producing scheme according to standard neoclassical economic theory.

FDR"s tripling of taxes, his regulation of business, and his relentless antibusiness propaganda also contributed to a worsening of the Great Depression, but his labor policies were probably the most harmful to the employment prospects of American workers."

http://mises.org...
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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11/17/2013 9:50:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/17/2013 7:30:50 PM, YYW wrote:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XcV5_0mF-8

Ted Cruz' conviction is ridiculous? You support government bureaucrats getting between me and my doctor. You support 16,000 armed IRS agents pointing guns at me forcing me to buy a product I don't want from a website that doesn't work or face a penalty I can't afford. I get to keep my health insurance but only if Obama likes it because he knows what's best for me.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
YYW
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11/17/2013 9:52:10 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/17/2013 9:50:49 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/17/2013 7:30:50 PM, YYW wrote:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XcV5_0mF-8

Ted Cruz' conviction is ridiculous? You support government bureaucrats getting between me and my doctor.

False.

You support 16,000 armed IRS agents pointing guns at me forcing me to buy a product I don't want from a website that doesn't work or face a penalty I can't afford.

False.

I get to keep my health insurance but only if Obama likes it because he knows what's best for me.

If you don't think you need health coverage, then you don't know what's best for you.
Tsar of DDO
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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11/17/2013 10:30:07 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/17/2013 9:52:10 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/17/2013 9:50:49 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Ted Cruz' conviction is ridiculous? You support government bureaucrats getting between me and my doctor.

False.

You're a Liberal who likely supports Obamacare or some variation of it.

You support 16,000 armed IRS agents pointing guns at me forcing me to buy a product I don't want from a website that doesn't work or face a penalty I can't afford.

False.

You support redistributive taxes. You support an income tax. You've admitted that people don't know what's best for them. So yes, you support 16,000 armed IRS agents pointing guns at me to confiscate what small amount of wealth I have. That is the core of your philosophy.

I get to keep my health insurance but only if Obama likes it because he knows what's best for me.

If you don't think you need health coverage, then you don't know what's best for you.

I do think I need health coverage but Obama wants to cancel the great coverage I have in favor of a health plan that includes maternity care, hip replacements, injuries inflicted by turtles that costs me and the tax-payer even more.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
TheHitchslap
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11/17/2013 10:41:03 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/17/2013 10:30:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/17/2013 9:52:10 PM, YYW wrote:
At 11/17/2013 9:50:49 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Ted Cruz' conviction is ridiculous? You support government bureaucrats getting between me and my doctor.

False.

You're a Liberal who likely supports Obamacare or some variation of it.

yeah? so?

You support 16,000 armed IRS agents pointing guns at me forcing me to buy a product I don't want from a website that doesn't work or face a penalty I can't afford.

False.

You support re-distributive(fixed) taxes. You support an income tax. You've admitted that people don't know what's best for them.
False. People are capable of making their own rational decisions .. but this does not always happen. Ergo we canot assume everyone will act that way.
So yes, you support 16,000 armed IRS agents pointing guns at me to confiscate what small amount of wealth I have. That is the core of your philosophy.

LOL no. Nice hyperbole. Since when has anyone taken away all your money?
The core of your philosophy is to take power from a government that is at least somewhat accountable to the public via voting, and hand it over to the most totalitarian of our society (corporations) which are largely unaccountable, monopolistic, top-to-bottom approach, and in some cases above the law. Talk about tyranny!

I get to keep my health insurance but only if Obama likes it because he knows what's best for me.

If you don't think you need health coverage, then you don't know what's best for you.

I do think I need health coverage
good...so why not JUST you? Why not everyone?
but Obama wants to cancel the great coverage I have in favor of a health plan that includes maternity care, hip replacements, injuries inflicted by turtles that costs me and the tax-payer even more.

Uhhh ... NO. Blatantly false.

He wants to get rid of those stupid little $50 "plans" that essentially do nothing, and replace them with something that actually covers something.
And if your plan really is that great, guess you have nothing to worry about. It was these little $50 plans he was attacking, bout it.
Thank you for voting!
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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11/17/2013 11:18:46 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/17/2013 10:41:03 PM, TheHitchslap wrote:
At 11/17/2013 10:30:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:: :
You're a Liberal who likely supports Obamacare or some variation of it.

yeah? so?

Liberals support bureaucrats getting between me and my doctor.

You support re-distributive(fixed) taxes. You support an income tax. You've admitted that people don't know what's best for them.
False. People are capable of making their own rational decisions .. but this does not always happen. Ergo we canot assume everyone will act that way.

Obviously people make mistakes and aren't always rational, but an even greater danger is the idea that government knows what's best for us and that the government should save us from ourselves.

Let people make mistakes and learn from them. You support a nanny state 1984 big brother police state. Sorry, I don't want that.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
-- Thomas Jefferson

So yes, you support 16,000 armed IRS agents pointing guns at me to confiscate what small amount of wealth I have. That is the core of your philosophy.

LOL no. Nice hyperbole. Since when has anyone taken away all your money?

The IRS illegally confiscates $10,000 from me each year and I don't even pay Social Security tax. Do you know how much my life would be drastically different with that money? I make middle class wages but have to live in an apartment like someone on welfare, hell people on welfare probably get public housing.

The core of your philosophy is to take power from a government that is at least somewhat accountable to the public via voting,

Tyranny of the majority brings me no comfort. The public voted for Obama twice.

and hand it over to the most totalitarian of our society (corporations)

1. Libertarians are the loudest voices against corporate welfare, corporate subsidies, corporate lobbying, and crony capitalism. The Mises Institute even supports the Glass-Steagall Act.

2. Corporations are not totalitarian. Corporations come into existence by innovating and selling goods the consumer likes and expanding it's consumer base by pleasing a greater number of consumers through voluntary exchange. If corporations are so totalitarian, why hasn't Starbucks ever sent armed agents to my house to force me to buy their coffee because they know what's best for me?

which are largely unaccountable, monopolistic, top-to-bottom approach, and in some cases above the law. Talk about tyranny!

If a company no longer meets the needs of the consumer, it goes out of business. Look at Blockbuster. Every consumer votes with their dollar and companies are accountable to the customer.

Conservatives are the ones who always oppose the government picking winners and losers and wanting companies to rise or fall based on their own merits. Monopolies occur when government imposes regulations that suffocate small business and their competition and also when government gives out corporate subsidies.

I do think I need health coverage
good...so why not JUST you? Why not everyone?

When have I ever suggested that others shouldn't be able to get health coverage?

The biggest barrier to people buying health insurance is high prices. Mandates, taxes, and regulations and the employer attached health insurance has led to high prices. I support interstate free market competition for the highest quality at the lowest price. I support detaching health insurance from the employer so that it is personal and portable and eliminating issues of preexisting condition denial.

but Obama wants to cancel the great coverage I have in favor of a health plan that includes maternity care, hip replacements, injuries inflicted by turtles that costs me and the tax-payer even more.

Uhhh ... NO. Blatantly false.

He wants to get rid of those stupid little $50 "plans" that essentially do nothing, and replace them with something that actually covers something.
And if your plan really is that great, guess you have nothing to worry about. It was these little $50 plans he was attacking, bout it.

That's what the White House talking points would want us to believe but that's not the reality. And again, here you are telling people that they don't know what's best for them, they don't know how to pick insurance, and therefore the force of government must intervene.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
TheHitchslap
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11/18/2013 1:22:04 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/17/2013 11:18:46 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/17/2013 10:41:03 PM, TheHitchslap wrote:
At 11/17/2013 10:30:07 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:: :
You're a Liberal who likely supports Obamacare or some variation of it.

yeah? so?

Liberals support bureaucrats getting between me and my doctor.
We've just been through this. No they do not.

You support re-distributive(fixed) taxes. You support an income tax. You've admitted that people don't know what's best for them.
False. People are capable of making their own rational decisions .. but this does not always happen. Ergo we canot assume everyone will act that way.

Obviously people make mistakes and aren't always rational, but an even greater danger is the idea that government knows what's best for us and that the government should save us from ourselves.
I never said that.
What i said was no one is going to make a rational choice all the time
which stands to reason some kind of social floor must be in place to correct that wrong if that's the case. I never said government is the be-all and end-all to every answer.

Let people make mistakes and learn from them. You support a nanny state 1984 big brother police state. Sorry, I don't want that.

LOL no I do not support a fascist state. And did you read that book? Big brother was not a nanny state.
In fact, you're proto-fascist. You're the closest one to tyranny I've ever seen.
You scapegoat immigrants and liberals to try and unify america and conservatism
You're insistent on protecting corporations via free-market
You support a controlled mass media, by denouncing MSNBC but praising Fox news and advocating for the censorship of anyone YOU disagree with
You are obsessed with crime and punishment. Remember the Treyvon martin case and you blowing off the handle about collectivism and attacks at the time?
Finally, you actually support fraudulent elections; You want Ted Cruz (a Canadian) to illegally run for POTUS.

You sir are proto-fascist.

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."
-- Thomas Jefferson

Yes...let's quote the man who heavily violates the constitution in the Louisiana Purchase about liberty. I love your hypocrisy.

So yes, you support 16,000 armed IRS agents pointing guns at me to confiscate what small amount of wealth I have. That is the core of your philosophy.

LOL no. Nice hyperbole. Since when has anyone taken away all your money?

The IRS illegally confiscates $10,000 from me each year and I don't even pay Social Security tax.
Illegally? You realize taxation is voluntary right?
Do you know how much my life would be drastically different with that money? I make middle class wages but have to live in an apartment like someone on welfare, hell people on welfare probably get public housing.
Aweee, poor you! You realize that most people in the middle class can only afford an apartment?

The core of your philosophy is to take power from a government that is at least somewhat accountable to the public via voting,

Tyranny of the majority brings me no comfort. The public voted for Obama twice.
Red herring, I spoke nothing of voting about Obama, only that voting as a function makes government at least somewhat accountable.

and hand it over to the most totalitarian of our society (corporations)

1. Libertarians are the loudest voices against corporate welfare, corporate subsidies, corporate lobbying, and crony capitalism. The Mises Institute even supports the Glass-Steagall Act.

You realize free-markets result in monopolies right? Ever see the food industry and it's oligopoly? With no intervention it went from a highly competitive market down to 5 super corporations that now work together.

2. Corporations are not totalitarian.
Yes they are.
Corporations come into existence by innovating and selling goods the consumer likes and expanding it's consumer base by pleasing a greater number of consumers through voluntary exchange. If corporations are so totalitarian, why hasn't Starbucks ever sent armed agents to my house to force me to buy their coffee because they know what's best for me?
Because the government has stopped it from doing so. Guatemala on the other hand...not so much. In fact the United Fruit Company alone was able to generate support to overthrow a leader simply because they didn't like his policies. That's totalitarianism.
Being that one person controls essentially everything, being top-down, monopolistic, no regard for human life, and again, in a lot of cases outright breaking the law and getting away with it makes them totalitarian. Look up how much was lost in taxing revenue due to apple fraudulently trying to escape them.
http://en.wikipedia.org...'"tat

which are largely unaccountable, monopolistic, top-to-bottom approach, and in some cases above the law. Talk about tyranny!

If a company no longer meets the needs of the consumer, it goes out of business. Look at Blockbuster. Every consumer votes with their dollar and companies are accountable to the customer.
That literally has nothing to do with how much power they're able to accumulate.

Conservatives are the ones who always oppose the government picking winners and losers and wanting companies to rise or fall based on their own merits. Monopolies occur when government imposes regulations that suffocate small business and their competition and also when government gives out corporate subsidies.

Not always (above United Fruit Company)

I do think I need health coverage
good...so why not JUST you? Why not everyone?

When have I ever suggested that others shouldn't be able to get health coverage?
The fact that you oppose Obamacare.

The biggest barrier to people buying health insurance is high prices.
Yes
Mandates, taxes, and regulations and the employer attached health insurance has led to high prices. I support interstate free market competition for the highest quality at the lowest price. I support detaching health insurance from the employer so that it is personal and portable and eliminating issues of preexisting condition denial.

Too bad not everyone would have it then under free-market systems. It still isolates so many as a result. Furthermore, those regulations will actually work to lower prices, which is why insurance companies hate individual mandate, while forcing those with terrible coverage to get good coverage or enter the "shark pool"

but Obama wants to cancel the great coverage I have in favor of a health plan that includes maternity care, hip replacements, injuries inflicted by turtles that costs me and the tax-payer even more.

Uhhh ... NO. Blatantly false.

He wants to get rid of those stupid little $50 "plans" that essentially do nothing, and replace them with something that actually covers something.
And if your plan really is that great, guess you have nothing to worry about. It was these little $50 plans he was attacking, bout it.

That's what the White House talking points would want us to believe but that's not the reality. And again, here you are telling people that they don't know what's best for them, they don't know how to pick insurance, and therefore the force of government must intervene.

The reality is, those plans covered prescriptions at best. That was it.The goal was healthcare, not over-glorified drug plans bud. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Oh and nice republican talking points.
Thank you for voting!
Wnope
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11/18/2013 3:18:55 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/17/2013 2:13:13 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/16/2013 7:59:37 PM, Wnope wrote:
Apology for inducing a government shutdown

It was a 15% slimdown of an overbloated Federal government. It should be applauded.

with a poison pill

A pill so poisonous that all the Democrats including Obama want it?

Ted Cruz was offering a big juicy steak, not a poison pill, but because Obama is arrogant and stubborn he didn't want to appear weak and turned down the offer.

Ted Cruz first asked for a defund which would have only delayed discretionary spending for a year. *Gasp*

Then on the second day he asked for a delay of the individual mandate and give Americans the same exemption he gave big corporations.

Then by the fourth day, all Republicans asked for was for Congress to be forced to live under Obamacare like everybody else rather than exempting themselves from the law they passed.

So don't give me the bullsh!t that the shutdown was over Republicans calling for a repeal of his signature legislation or not passing a budget.

The fact is Obama Reid kept the shutdown going because they didn't want to do what they are now clamoring to do now.

It was a poison pill back then but a lifesaver today. Typical Lib hypocrisy.

with the sole intent of promoting his own primary run (against the wishes of his party leaders)?

Politicians engage in politics what's new. To be fair, Ted Cruz actually does the right thing even if it means sacrificing his own numbers and results in helping the other side.

His critics said, why didn't you just let Obamacare roll out, fail, and let Democrats take the heat. His answer is, real Americans are suffering because of Obamacare and it would be wrong to let them get steamrolled for your own benefit, reelection, or poll numbers and he's right.

He points out that doing the right is what matters, the politics will sort itself out.

The best move politically would be for him to step out of the way, not try to defund, and let Dems take the fall. The moral thing to do would be stand firm in front of the moving trainwreck and put your hand out like superman even if you get crushed and called the bad guy.

Only in your world does lowering America's GDP by .6% and losing 24 billion dollars seem like a good idea. Deficit reduction for the sake of deficit reduction, who cares what it does to workers?

You do know congress isn't exempt from Obamacare, right? That's a lie exposed by both snopes and politifact.

So, from the get-go, you are either lying about what Cruz wanted or Cruz was being disingenuous.

Next, on your assertion Cruz's campaign was only meant to take a small bite out of Obamacare:

" Cruz claimed that the only thing that he would consider a victory would killing Obamacare, "I think a victory is if we prevent some of the enormous harms Obamacare is inflicting on millions of Americans.""
http://www.politicususa.com...

http://www.politifact.com...

I cannot understand how "defunders" like yourself can come out and say things like "Oh, we'll just defund a program for a year, and then it'll be right as rain" with a straight face.

Defunding obamacare means all the infrastructure needed for its implementation never gets made.

I dare you point to a single Democrat who wanted to defund obamacare.

What's most astonishing is that you actually think Ted Cruz did this to help other people.

Defunding Obamacare isn't the same as getting rid of it. Gutting Obamacare doesn't get rid of it, it leaves a carcass purposefully designed to sabotage the healthcare of anyone who wants it.

It's like letting the other side set up a building project, letting a thousand people move in, and then taking away all the money for the electricity and water for those people.

Only a sadist or a moron would suggest this was done for the good of those tenants.

Defunding means running a program involving millions of people's healthcare while simultaneously making sure it will fail.

"The moral thing to do would be stand firm in front of the moving trainwreck and put your hand out like superman even if you get crushed and called the bad guy."

And the moral thing is to tell people that congress has exempted itself from Obamacare?

"To be fair, Ted Cruz actually does the right thing even if it means sacrificing his own numbers and results in helping the other side."

Good lord man, are you that naive?

Ted Cruz doing this tanks the Republican party, but his numbers are sky high.

This was an entirely selfish move motivated by a wish to become President.

Let's go over the facts:

1. Ted Cruz accomplished absolutely nothing with the shutdown
2. Everyone with an IQ over 100 and a basic grasp of politics knew 1 would happen
3. Ted Cruz's only achievement from the shutdown was publicity
4. Ted Cruz's publicity was not in favor of the GOP, but himself

So why do you keep portraying the shutdown as some heroic effort?

EVERYONE knew it would fail. EVERYONE knew it would do nothing other than give Ted Cruz name-recognition.

You say Ted Cruz is smart? Then he knew he would accomplish nothing other than make gullible people like you think he was being heroic.

If he wanted to get of Obamacare so badly, all he had to do was NOT induce the shutdown. All that did was take attention from the roll out.
themohawkninja
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11/18/2013 9:23:18 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/17/2013 9:38:44 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 11/17/2013 8:59:23 PM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 11/17/2013 8:52:02 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
There's a difference between principles of governance and liberty and the moral doctrines of religion. Cleary, in the case of the Founders and Ted Cruz, I was referring to the moral principles of governance and liberty.

Also, let me note that the Founders, born out of the Enlightenment, were very anti-clergy, anti-papacy, and anti-dogma so to suggest that because the Founders were from an era where religion was dominant that therefore they were religious, that is simply absurd.

I understand that, but there are clear religions undertones in many of our basic laws, and Constitution. Not to mention the various religious figures on government buildings.

Reference to God and natural rights =/= religious undertones.

I'm pretty sure if the word "God" was mentioned in a non-religious book with the appropriate context, that would be a religious undertone.

God could be anything that people believe is supreme, Jesus, the Universe, Brahman, Allah, Tao, etc. anything but the government. It is a political doctrine that our natural rights are derived from something divine, not something granted by government.

A tax benefit given to people based on personal lifestyle choices? WTF. Hell no that's not a right. There should be no tax benefits period because taxes should be flat across the board. In fact, the Income Tax should be abolished period so we shouldn't even be having this discussion.

Since the one prerequisite to gay marriage isn't a choice, I wouldn't completely call it a 'lifestyle choice'.

Choosing to court a mate, choosing to marry, choosing to start a family, choosing to live with a mate, those are all lifestyle choices. Other people choose to be single, some choose to be swingers.

Correct, but why deny someone who is gay a tax benefit, if straight people can already get them?

Also, how would you pay for government without income tax?

"There is a good many years we didn"t have an income tax other than for a brief period under Lincoln, we didn"t have an income tax until 1914, and we did quite well. But the question isn"t so much how you do it, it"s how much do you want to pay for? If you want a welfare system, if you want the entitlement system to continue, if you want corporate welfare, the military industrial complex and foreign adventurism and policing the world, you can"t do it, not only do you need the income tax, you need to borrow, you need to print the money, so it"s an attitude about government and I think the most important question that we have to ask, is what should the role of government be?"
-- Ron Paul

"An income tax is the most degrading and totalitarian of all possible taxes.

Its implementation wrongly suggests that the government owns the lives and labor of the citizens it is supposed to represent. Tellingly, 'a heavy progressive or graduated income tax' is Plank #2 of the Communist Manifesto."
-- Ron Paul

I live in a state with no income tax, no corporate tax, no food tax, just a sales tax.

What state do you live in? I'd like to move there (although I assume that your sales tax is quite high). Also, as much as I wanted to call BS on the no income tax part, it seems that while there wasn't always income tax, I have found income tax being instated as long ago as 1865 to pay for the Civil War. Lastly, is Ron Paul saying that inflation is a way to pay for government programs? He literally states: "If you want a welfare system, if you want the entitlement system to continue, if you want corporate welfare... you need to print the money."

Don't hate on Communism man... it currently works in at least two countries.

I generalized the Left? 100% of Democrats voted for and supported Obamacare!! Mourdock is the only Republican who believes in "legitimate rape."

Democrats and Liberals believe in government solutions, centralized government, central planning, and big government. That's not a generalization, that's just a fact.

There's exceptions to everything. B will in most cases cause A.

Yeah, the New Deal was a nice exception.

The New Deal is garbage. The New Deal is a massive failure of big government. Is that what you champion as great policy?

"Virtually every single one of FDR"s "New Deal" policies made things even worse and prolonged the Depression.

FDR and his advisors mistakenly believed that the Depression was caused by low prices, therefore, high prices"enforced by threats of violence, coercion and intimidation by the state"would be the "solution." Moreover, it is hardly a secret that if less production takes place, fewer workers will be needed by employers and unemployment will subsequently be higher. Thus, the First New Deal could not possibly have been anything but a gigantic unemployment-producing scheme according to standard neoclassical economic theory.

FDR"s tripling of taxes, his regulation of business, and his relentless antibusiness propaganda also contributed to a worsening of the Great Depression, but his labor policies were probably the most harmful to the employment prospects of American workers."

http://mises.org...

Okay, fine... my school lied to me... again... seriously, this is getting depressing how many lies I was told in school.

Involvement is WWII. Did THAT do anything bad to the economy?
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
Double_R
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11/18/2013 2:55:25 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 11/15/2013 9:07:27 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
That crazy Ted Cruz. The Texas freshman Senator (R-Tea Party) tried to defund Obamacare, then accepted a one-year delay in the individual mandate as a compromise position.

Please speak English.

You don't get to call Cruz's demand a compromise any more then I get to call asking for you to send me $50 a compromise, merely because I originally asked you for $100.

You know this. Even you are not that stupid.

Yes, Cruz's strategy was flawed because defunding seemed nearly impossible, and because he struggled to unite the GOP. But he made it absolutely clear that Republicans had zero ownership of Obamacare--a fact that would not have been as obvious had the GOP meekly funded the program.

Right, because voting to repeal it 46 times must not have sent the message.

He set down a bright marker. And was mocked. When does he get his apology?

When he deserves one. He was the poster child for what was probably the most pointless shutdown in our history. And sadly, everyone, even him, knew it would be when they started this.

But according to you it did serve it's purpose, now the country knows who to blame for Obamacare. Which means that according to you; the republicans allowed the economy to take a hit, added billions to the deficit, and left hundreds of thousands of federal employees without a paycheck for weeks for the sole purpose of ensuring that America point the finger at the democrats for Obamacare. And you want an apology?
YYW
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11/18/2013 10:08:52 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
All the things that Newt Gingrich did in the 90s now look like child's play to the sh!t that Ted Cruz and his brigade of baboons now have tried to pull. But, I won't say any more, for incurring the risk of insulting baboons -who are creatures far more noble than Tea Party Republicans.
Tsar of DDO