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"War on Christmas"

thett3
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12/5/2013 3:00:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Every time I hear this phrase, I get annoyed that canned food and modern medicine have spared these idiots from natural selection. Before complaining that Christ is being "taken out" of Christmas, let's look at a few facts:

A) Christmas was originally a pagan holiday that the early Church started using to commemorate the birth of Christ in an effort to draw in more pagans[1].

B) Christmas is celebrating the supposed birthdate of Christ. Too bad birthday celebrations are pagan too[2].

So there you go. Want to go back to the roots of Christmas? Go bust out the druid robes.

This is not to say that I have a problem with people using Christmas as a way to celebrate Christ (although I think he would seriously frown upon what Christmas is today), but rather that people need to shut up about a supposed "War on Christmas".

And to the self righteous idiots who get angry that someone took time out of their day to wish you a Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays can go get bent.

/endrant

1. http://www.simpletoremember.com...
2. http://rcg.org...
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"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
donald.keller
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12/5/2013 3:17:53 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 3:00:00 PM, thett3 wrote:
Every time I hear this phrase, I get annoyed that canned food and modern medicine have spared these idiots from natural selection. Before complaining that Christ is being "taken out" of Christmas, let's look at a few facts:

A) Christmas was originally a pagan holiday that the early Church started using to commemorate the birth of Christ in an effort to draw in more pagans[1].

B) Christmas is celebrating the supposed birthdate of Christ. Too bad birthday celebrations are pagan too[2].

So there you go. Want to go back to the roots of Christmas? Go bust out the druid robes.

This is not to say that I have a problem with people using Christmas as a way to celebrate Christ (although I think he would seriously frown upon what Christmas is today), but rather that people need to shut up about a supposed "War on Christmas".

And to the self righteous idiots who get angry that someone took time out of their day to wish you a Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays can go get bent.

/endrant

1. http://www.simpletoremember.com...
2. http://rcg.org...

This would be a good argument... Except that Birthdays aren't pagan... Birthdays aren't even related to religion. They are a social celebration, not a religious celebration. And Christmas wasn't a pagan holiday. That's a terribly flawed misconception people have. Christmas was completely unique to itself, and simply placed next to a pagan holiday to make it seem friendlier to pagans.

And absolutely none of this has to do with a "War on Christmas." So what if birthdays aren't christian... They aren't really connected to anything beside social traditions. And so what if the holiday was next to a pagan holiday (or for the sack of debate, based off a pagan holiday)... It's still it's own holiday, and technically still considered holy (although that's subjective, but if you really believe it's holy, and it's under attack, you'd be wrong for not defending it.)

I completely agree with your last paragraph.

I believe there are wars against Christmas (wars on anything, actually) but it's not a major social movement. Just a few bigoted groups ad sensitive people.
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thett3
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12/5/2013 3:22:20 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 3:17:53 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 12/5/2013 3:00:00 PM, thett3 wrote:
Every time I hear this phrase, I get annoyed that canned food and modern medicine have spared these idiots from natural selection. Before complaining that Christ is being "taken out" of Christmas, let's look at a few facts:

A) Christmas was originally a pagan holiday that the early Church started using to commemorate the birth of Christ in an effort to draw in more pagans[1].

B) Christmas is celebrating the supposed birthdate of Christ. Too bad birthday celebrations are pagan too[2].

So there you go. Want to go back to the roots of Christmas? Go bust out the druid robes.

This is not to say that I have a problem with people using Christmas as a way to celebrate Christ (although I think he would seriously frown upon what Christmas is today), but rather that people need to shut up about a supposed "War on Christmas".

And to the self righteous idiots who get angry that someone took time out of their day to wish you a Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays can go get bent.

/endrant

1. http://www.simpletoremember.com...
2. http://rcg.org...

This would be a good argument... Except that Birthdays aren't pagan... Birthdays aren't even related to religion. They are a social celebration, not a religious celebration. And Christmas wasn't a pagan holiday. That's a terribly flawed misconception people have. Christmas was completely unique to itself, and simply placed next to a pagan holiday to make it seem friendlier to pagans.

My second source detailed how birthday celebrations were pagan in origin and only mentioned in the Bible 3 times, all three times in a negative way. My first source explained the pagan origins of Christmas: "In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians."


And absolutely none of this has to do with a "War on Christmas." So what if birthdays aren't christian... They aren't really connected to anything beside social traditions. And so what if the holiday was next to a pagan holiday (or for the sack of debate, based off a pagan holiday)... It's still it's own holiday, and technically still considered holy (although that's subjective, but if you really believe it's holy, and it's under attack, you'd be wrong for not defending it.)

I completely agree with your last paragraph.

I believe there are wars against Christmas (wars on anything, actually) but it's not a major social movement. Just a few bigoted groups ad sensitive people.

Yeah, I know. But it isn't anywhere near as bad as they make it seem.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
donald.keller
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12/5/2013 3:33:56 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 3:22:20 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/5/2013 3:17:53 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 12/5/2013 3:00:00 PM, thett3 wrote:
Every time I hear this phrase, I get annoyed that canned food and modern medicine have spared these idiots from natural selection. Before complaining that Christ is being "taken out" of Christmas, let's look at a few facts:

A) Christmas was originally a pagan holiday that the early Church started using to commemorate the birth of Christ in an effort to draw in more pagans[1].

B) Christmas is celebrating the supposed birthdate of Christ. Too bad birthday celebrations are pagan too[2].

So there you go. Want to go back to the roots of Christmas? Go bust out the druid robes.

This is not to say that I have a problem with people using Christmas as a way to celebrate Christ (although I think he would seriously frown upon what Christmas is today), but rather that people need to shut up about a supposed "War on Christmas".

And to the self righteous idiots who get angry that someone took time out of their day to wish you a Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays can go get bent.

/endrant

1. http://www.simpletoremember.com...
2. http://rcg.org...

This would be a good argument... Except that Birthdays aren't pagan... Birthdays aren't even related to religion. They are a social celebration, not a religious celebration. And Christmas wasn't a pagan holiday. That's a terribly flawed misconception people have. Christmas was completely unique to itself, and simply placed next to a pagan holiday to make it seem friendlier to pagans.

My second source detailed how birthday celebrations were pagan in origin and only mentioned in the Bible 3 times, all three times in a negative way. My first source explained the pagan origins of Christmas: "In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians."

A deeper look into Christmas and you see it isn't really a birthday. The point isn't to celebrate his birth, but his intentions. Christians don't care about the birth... They celebrate the coming of a savior, and that a God would come to die to some dumb mortals... It celebrates his eventual sacrifice, and the gift of everlasting life he gave everyone who believed in him (which is why we give presents.) Calling it a birthday is a major over-simplification... that's a message I never got until just now... huh.

Christmas took much of the festival, but it's premise was different. it was still a different holiday. Let me explain better...

My birthday was November 22 (I noticed a stunning lack of celebration on this site <.<) and is usually near (or on) Thanksgiving. When it's on Thanksgiving, they just mix the two, with presents and turkey and the whole lot of it. My Birthday is still a completely different celebration, but with many of the Thanksgiving festivities. Of course my Mother does it to save money, Christians had a different reason. But Christmas was still a celebration of it's own.



And absolutely none of this has to do with a "War on Christmas." So what if birthdays aren't christian... They aren't really connected to anything beside social traditions. And so what if the holiday was next to a pagan holiday (or for the sack of debate, based off a pagan holiday)... It's still it's own holiday, and technically still considered holy (although that's subjective, but if you really believe it's holy, and it's under attack, you'd be wrong for not defending it.)

I completely agree with your last paragraph.

I believe there are wars against Christmas (wars on anything, actually) but it's not a major social movement. Just a few bigoted groups ad sensitive people.

Yeah, I know. But it isn't anywhere near as bad as they make it seem.

Like I said... Not a major social movement or something. I don't blame them for thinking it is though, with how loud those small groups are. Of course, small groups of loud people can do a lot.
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thett3
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12/5/2013 3:38:28 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 3:33:56 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 12/5/2013 3:22:20 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/5/2013 3:17:53 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 12/5/2013 3:00:00 PM, thett3 wrote:
Every time I hear this phrase, I get annoyed that canned food and modern medicine have spared these idiots from natural selection. Before complaining that Christ is being "taken out" of Christmas, let's look at a few facts:

A) Christmas was originally a pagan holiday that the early Church started using to commemorate the birth of Christ in an effort to draw in more pagans[1].

B) Christmas is celebrating the supposed birthdate of Christ. Too bad birthday celebrations are pagan too[2].

So there you go. Want to go back to the roots of Christmas? Go bust out the druid robes.

This is not to say that I have a problem with people using Christmas as a way to celebrate Christ (although I think he would seriously frown upon what Christmas is today), but rather that people need to shut up about a supposed "War on Christmas".

And to the self righteous idiots who get angry that someone took time out of their day to wish you a Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays can go get bent.

/endrant

1. http://www.simpletoremember.com...
2. http://rcg.org...

This would be a good argument... Except that Birthdays aren't pagan... Birthdays aren't even related to religion. They are a social celebration, not a religious celebration. And Christmas wasn't a pagan holiday. That's a terribly flawed misconception people have. Christmas was completely unique to itself, and simply placed next to a pagan holiday to make it seem friendlier to pagans.

My second source detailed how birthday celebrations were pagan in origin and only mentioned in the Bible 3 times, all three times in a negative way. My first source explained the pagan origins of Christmas: "In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians."

A deeper look into Christmas and you see it isn't really a birthday. The point isn't to celebrate his birth, but his intentions. Christians don't care about the birth... They celebrate the coming of a savior, and that a God would come to die to some dumb mortals... It celebrates his eventual sacrifice, and the gift of everlasting life he gave everyone who believed in him (which is why we give presents.) Calling it a birthday is a major over-simplification... that's a message I never got until just now... huh.

I know that, and I'm not trying to point out that celebration of Christmas is sinful or wrong, I'm saying that it's origin is Pagan. Christ was put INTO Christmas, and I don't see anything wrong with that, just as there's nothing wrong with someone saying "Happy Holidays" or celebrating something else instead of Christmas.


Christmas took much of the festival, but it's premise was different. it was still a different holiday. Let me explain better...

My birthday was November 22 (I noticed a stunning lack of celebration on this site <.<) and is usually near (or on) Thanksgiving. When it's on Thanksgiving, they just mix the two, with presents and turkey and the whole lot of it. My Birthday is still a completely different celebration, but with many of the Thanksgiving festivities. Of course my Mother does it to save money, Christians had a different reason. But Christmas was still a celebration of it's own.

But your birthday doesnt replace Thanksgiving...the early Church specifically began to recognize Christmas so that the pagans they wished to convert wouldn't have to give up their traditional festivals




And absolutely none of this has to do with a "War on Christmas." So what if birthdays aren't christian... They aren't really connected to anything beside social traditions. And so what if the holiday was next to a pagan holiday (or for the sack of debate, based off a pagan holiday)... It's still it's own holiday, and technically still considered holy (although that's subjective, but if you really believe it's holy, and it's under attack, you'd be wrong for not defending it.)

I completely agree with your last paragraph.

I believe there are wars against Christmas (wars on anything, actually) but it's not a major social movement. Just a few bigoted groups ad sensitive people.

Yeah, I know. But it isn't anywhere near as bad as they make it seem.

Like I said... Not a major social movement or something. I don't blame them for thinking it is though, with how loud those small groups are. Of course, small groups of loud people can do a lot.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Noumena
Posts: 6,047
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12/5/2013 3:42:29 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
That time of year already? I admittedly get most of my Fox News only when I'm drunk with friends at McDonalds but I hadn't seen anything about it yet.
: At 5/13/2014 7:05:20 PM, Crescendo wrote:
: The difference is that the gay movement is currently pushing their will on Churches, as shown in the link to gay marriage in Denmark. Meanwhile, the Inquisition ended several centuries ago.
donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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12/5/2013 3:47:37 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 3:38:28 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/5/2013 3:33:56 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 12/5/2013 3:22:20 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/5/2013 3:17:53 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 12/5/2013 3:00:00 PM, thett3 wrote:
Every time I hear this phrase, I get annoyed that canned food and modern medicine have spared these idiots from natural selection. Before complaining that Christ is being "taken out" of Christmas, let's look at a few facts:

A) Christmas was originally a pagan holiday that the early Church started using to commemorate the birth of Christ in an effort to draw in more pagans[1].

B) Christmas is celebrating the supposed birthdate of Christ. Too bad birthday celebrations are pagan too[2].

So there you go. Want to go back to the roots of Christmas? Go bust out the druid robes.

This is not to say that I have a problem with people using Christmas as a way to celebrate Christ (although I think he would seriously frown upon what Christmas is today), but rather that people need to shut up about a supposed "War on Christmas".

And to the self righteous idiots who get angry that someone took time out of their day to wish you a Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays can go get bent.

/endrant

1. http://www.simpletoremember.com...
2. http://rcg.org...

This would be a good argument... Except that Birthdays aren't pagan... Birthdays aren't even related to religion. They are a social celebration, not a religious celebration. And Christmas wasn't a pagan holiday. That's a terribly flawed misconception people have. Christmas was completely unique to itself, and simply placed next to a pagan holiday to make it seem friendlier to pagans.

My second source detailed how birthday celebrations were pagan in origin and only mentioned in the Bible 3 times, all three times in a negative way. My first source explained the pagan origins of Christmas: "In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians."

A deeper look into Christmas and you see it isn't really a birthday. The point isn't to celebrate his birth, but his intentions. Christians don't care about the birth... They celebrate the coming of a savior, and that a God would come to die to some dumb mortals... It celebrates his eventual sacrifice, and the gift of everlasting life he gave everyone who believed in him (which is why we give presents.) Calling it a birthday is a major over-simplification... that's a message I never got until just now... huh.

I know that, and I'm not trying to point out that celebration of Christmas is sinful or wrong, I'm saying that it's origin is Pagan. Christ was put INTO Christmas, and I don't see anything wrong with that, just as there's nothing wrong with someone saying "Happy Holidays" or celebrating something else instead of Christmas.


I know you aren't saying that it's sinful or bad. The festivities were pagan, the holiday itself was still different.


Christmas took much of the festival, but it's premise was different. it was still a different holiday. Let me explain better...

My birthday was November 22 (I noticed a stunning lack of celebration on this site <.<) and is usually near (or on) Thanksgiving. When it's on Thanksgiving, they just mix the two, with presents and turkey and the whole lot of it. My Birthday is still a completely different celebration, but with many of the Thanksgiving festivities. Of course my Mother does it to save money, Christians had a different reason. But Christmas was still a celebration of it's own.

But your birthday doesnt replace Thanksgiving...the early Church specifically began to recognize Christmas so that the pagans they wished to convert wouldn't have to give up their traditional festivals

Different intentions, same action. A distinction without a difference. They wanted the followers, but by no means did they actually replace the pagan holiday right away. It only disappeared because, after so much time, they got enough pagans to sign up that the pagan holiday disappeared. But until the pagan holiday disappeared, they were both different holidays celebrating the same festivals.

Like I said... Same festivals, different holidays.




And absolutely none of this has to do with a "War on Christmas." So what if birthdays aren't christian... They aren't really connected to anything beside social traditions. And so what if the holiday was next to a pagan holiday (or for the sack of debate, based off a pagan holiday)... It's still it's own holiday, and technically still considered holy (although that's subjective, but if you really believe it's holy, and it's under attack, you'd be wrong for not defending it.)

I completely agree with your last paragraph.

I believe there are wars against Christmas (wars on anything, actually) but it's not a major social movement. Just a few bigoted groups ad sensitive people.

Yeah, I know. But it isn't anywhere near as bad as they make it seem.

Like I said... Not a major social movement or something. I don't blame them for thinking it is though, with how loud those small groups are. Of course, small groups of loud people can do a lot.
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thett3
Posts: 14,344
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12/5/2013 3:56:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 3:47:37 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 12/5/2013 3:38:28 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/5/2013 3:33:56 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 12/5/2013 3:22:20 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/5/2013 3:17:53 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 12/5/2013 3:00:00 PM, thett3 wrote:
Every time I hear this phrase, I get annoyed that canned food and modern medicine have spared these idiots from natural selection. Before complaining that Christ is being "taken out" of Christmas, let's look at a few facts:

A) Christmas was originally a pagan holiday that the early Church started using to commemorate the birth of Christ in an effort to draw in more pagans[1].

B) Christmas is celebrating the supposed birthdate of Christ. Too bad birthday celebrations are pagan too[2].

So there you go. Want to go back to the roots of Christmas? Go bust out the druid robes.

This is not to say that I have a problem with people using Christmas as a way to celebrate Christ (although I think he would seriously frown upon what Christmas is today), but rather that people need to shut up about a supposed "War on Christmas".

And to the self righteous idiots who get angry that someone took time out of their day to wish you a Merry Christmas instead of Happy Holidays can go get bent.

/endrant

1. http://www.simpletoremember.com...
2. http://rcg.org...

This would be a good argument... Except that Birthdays aren't pagan... Birthdays aren't even related to religion. They are a social celebration, not a religious celebration. And Christmas wasn't a pagan holiday. That's a terribly flawed misconception people have. Christmas was completely unique to itself, and simply placed next to a pagan holiday to make it seem friendlier to pagans.

My second source detailed how birthday celebrations were pagan in origin and only mentioned in the Bible 3 times, all three times in a negative way. My first source explained the pagan origins of Christmas: "In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians."

A deeper look into Christmas and you see it isn't really a birthday. The point isn't to celebrate his birth, but his intentions. Christians don't care about the birth... They celebrate the coming of a savior, and that a God would come to die to some dumb mortals... It celebrates his eventual sacrifice, and the gift of everlasting life he gave everyone who believed in him (which is why we give presents.) Calling it a birthday is a major over-simplification... that's a message I never got until just now... huh.

I know that, and I'm not trying to point out that celebration of Christmas is sinful or wrong, I'm saying that it's origin is Pagan. Christ was put INTO Christmas, and I don't see anything wrong with that, just as there's nothing wrong with someone saying "Happy Holidays" or celebrating something else instead of Christmas.


I know you aren't saying that it's sinful or bad. The festivities were pagan, the holiday itself was still different.


Christmas took much of the festival, but it's premise was different. it was still a different holiday. Let me explain better...

My birthday was November 22 (I noticed a stunning lack of celebration on this site <.<) and is usually near (or on) Thanksgiving. When it's on Thanksgiving, they just mix the two, with presents and turkey and the whole lot of it. My Birthday is still a completely different celebration, but with many of the Thanksgiving festivities. Of course my Mother does it to save money, Christians had a different reason. But Christmas was still a celebration of it's own.

But your birthday doesnt replace Thanksgiving...the early Church specifically began to recognize Christmas so that the pagans they wished to convert wouldn't have to give up their traditional festivals

Different intentions, same action. A distinction without a difference. They wanted the followers, but by no means did they actually replace the pagan holiday right away. It only disappeared because, after so much time, they got enough pagans to sign up that the pagan holiday disappeared. But until the pagan holiday disappeared, they were both different holidays celebrating the same festivals.

Like I said... Same festivals, different holidays.

Exactly, the supposed birthdate of Jesus was invented by the Church to try and get more pagan converts. So to say that Christmas somehow has it's roots in something holy and spiritual (to Christians) is wrong. It was just a disguised pagan holiday. Which makes the "war on Christmas" rhetoric even more foolish because the root of Christmas is paganism. Yes it was created as a church holiday, but from a sociological perspective it's just a continuation of the same thing.

Celebrating Jesus is important. But you can do that without a month long spree of materialism and bigotry towards people trying to "make war" on Christmas because they celebrate something else.

It's not that I dislike Christmas (although I do hate the materialism very, very much) it's that I'm tired of people trying to make it another front of the culture war. We have enough division already, trying to force everyone to say "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays" because you're afraid that about a quarter of the US is non-Christian is just annoying.

"You" referring to the idiots like Sarah Palin in her new book about Christmas





And absolutely none of this has to do with a "War on Christmas." So what if birthdays aren't christian... They aren't really connected to anything beside social traditions. And so what if the holiday was next to a pagan holiday (or for the sack of debate, based off a pagan holiday)... It's still it's own holiday, and technically still considered holy (although that's subjective, but if you really believe it's holy, and it's under attack, you'd be wrong for not defending it.)

I completely agree with your last paragraph.

I believe there are wars against Christmas (wars on anything, actually) but it's not a major social movement. Just a few bigoted groups ad sensitive people.

Yeah, I know. But it isn't anywhere near as bad as they make it seem.

Like I said... Not a major social movement or something. I don't blame them for thinking it is though, with how loud those small groups are. Of course, small groups of loud people can do a lot.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
donald.keller
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12/5/2013 4:33:50 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
Like I said... Same festivals, different holidays.

Exactly, the supposed birthdate of Jesus was invented by the Church to try and get more pagan converts. So to say that Christmas somehow has it's roots in something holy and spiritual (to Christians) is wrong. It was just a disguised pagan holiday. Which makes the "war on Christmas" rhetoric even more foolish because the root of Christmas is paganism. Yes it was created as a church holiday, but from a sociological perspective it's just a continuation of the same thing.

The idea of Christmas wasn't invented to advertise. Only the date and type of festivities applied to it was used to do that. The root of Christianity isn't pagan, only the holiday it shared it's festival with. And again, you are over-simplifying it. You're seeing it like it's the Roman Empire being the continuity from the Kingdom of Rome, when it's more like from the Persian Empire to Alexanders Empire. Same area, same citizens, different empires, different histories and just different everything else.


Celebrating Jesus is important. But you can do that without a month long spree of materialism and bigotry towards people trying to "make war" on Christmas because they celebrate something else.


What does this have to do with it? Don't blame Christmas and Christians for what cooperation's and non-Christians did to it. Christmas isn't a materialistic holiday... People are materialistic, and pollute the happy meaning of Christmas. If they hate the consumerism they see around the season, they should make war against consumerism, not the holiday.

It's not that I dislike Christmas (although I do hate the materialism very, very much) it's that I'm tired of people trying to make it another front of the culture war. We have enough division already, trying to force everyone to say "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays" because you're afraid that about a quarter of the US is non-Christian is just annoying.


I know you aren't saying you don't like Christmas. I don't assume that because someone isn't on Christmas' side, that they must hate Christmas. I know you don't hate it. Although you are wrongly blaming Christmas when you should be blaming the materialistic people. Your blame is greatly misguide and misdirected.

I don't believe culture is trying to attack Christmas... But I also understand seeing things how others see it is important. I judge someone's belief is by how much merit their belief has. A christian sees Christmas as holy, and if they believe it's under attack, it'd only be right for them to defend it. There is at least that much merit to why they get defensive.

"You" referring to the idiots like Sarah Palin in her new book about Christmas
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thett3
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12/5/2013 4:37:49 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 4:33:50 PM, donald.keller wrote:
Like I said... Same festivals, different holidays.

Exactly, the supposed birthdate of Jesus was invented by the Church to try and get more pagan converts. So to say that Christmas somehow has it's roots in something holy and spiritual (to Christians) is wrong. It was just a disguised pagan holiday. Which makes the "war on Christmas" rhetoric even more foolish because the root of Christmas is paganism. Yes it was created as a church holiday, but from a sociological perspective it's just a continuation of the same thing.

The idea of Christmas wasn't invented to advertise.

Yeah, it was. My source literally said just that. It was invented to make Christianity more appealing to the pagan masses. I mean I don't claim to be an expert on ancient history so if you have a source making the counter claim it might be right.

Only the date and type of festivities applied to it was used to do that. The root of Christianity isn't pagan, only the holiday it shared it's festival with. And again, you are over-simplifying it. You're seeing it like it's the Roman Empire being the continuity from the Kingdom of Rome, when it's more like from the Persian Empire to Alexanders Empire. Same area, same citizens, different empires, different histories and just different everything else.

No, it's more like same holiday, same people, same traditions, just calling it something else.



Celebrating Jesus is important. But you can do that without a month long spree of materialism and bigotry towards people trying to "make war" on Christmas because they celebrate something else.


What does this have to do with it? Don't blame Christmas and Christians for what cooperation's and non-Christians did to it. Christmas isn't a materialistic holiday... People are materialistic, and pollute the happy meaning of Christmas. If they hate the consumerism they see around the season, they should make war against consumerism, not the holiday.

Agreed


It's not that I dislike Christmas (although I do hate the materialism very, very much) it's that I'm tired of people trying to make it another front of the culture war. We have enough division already, trying to force everyone to say "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays" because you're afraid that about a quarter of the US is non-Christian is just annoying.


I know you aren't saying you don't like Christmas. I don't assume that because someone isn't on Christmas' side, that they must hate Christmas. I know you don't hate it. Although you are wrongly blaming Christmas when you should be blaming the materialistic people. Your blame is greatly misguide and misdirected.

I don't believe culture is trying to attack Christmas... But I also understand seeing things how others see it is important. I judge someone's belief is by how much merit their belief has. A christian sees Christmas as holy, and if they believe it's under attack, it'd only be right for them to defend it. There is at least that much merit to why they get defensive.

But it's *not* under attack


"You" referring to the idiots like Sarah Palin in her new book about Christmas
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
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donald.keller
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12/5/2013 4:51:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 4:37:49 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/5/2013 4:33:50 PM, donald.keller wrote:
Like I said... Same festivals, different holidays.

Exactly, the supposed birthdate of Jesus was invented by the Church to try and get more pagan converts. So to say that Christmas somehow has it's roots in something holy and spiritual (to Christians) is wrong. It was just a disguised pagan holiday. Which makes the "war on Christmas" rhetoric even more foolish because the root of Christmas is paganism. Yes it was created as a church holiday, but from a sociological perspective it's just a continuation of the same thing.

The idea of Christmas wasn't invented to advertise.

Yeah, it was. My source literally said just that. It was invented to make Christianity more appealing to the pagan masses. I mean I don't claim to be an expert on ancient history so if you have a source making the counter claim it might be right.

You're source is a Jewish site... Which, if you didn't know, isn't found of Christmas or Jesus.


Only the date and type of festivities applied to it was used to do that. The root of Christianity isn't pagan, only the holiday it shared it's festival with. And again, you are over-simplifying it. You're seeing it like it's the Roman Empire being the continuity from the Kingdom of Rome, when it's more like from the Persian Empire to Alexanders Empire. Same area, same citizens, different empires, different histories and just different everything else.

No, it's more like same holiday, same people, same traditions, just calling it something else.

Hardly. The reasons for celebrating is completely different, as well as the center of the festival. The pagan holiday was a day of lawlessness where the courts were closed and you couldn't be punished, and they fatten up a man with sinful things and killed him because they thought they were killing off sin for another year (according to your source). Completely different. The time of year and the types of festivities were the only similarity.




Celebrating Jesus is important. But you can do that without a month long spree of materialism and bigotry towards people trying to "make war" on Christmas because they celebrate something else.


What does this have to do with it? Don't blame Christmas and Christians for what cooperation's and non-Christians did to it. Christmas isn't a materialistic holiday... People are materialistic, and pollute the happy meaning of Christmas. If they hate the consumerism they see around the season, they should make war against consumerism, not the holiday.

Agreed


It's not that I dislike Christmas (although I do hate the materialism very, very much) it's that I'm tired of people trying to make it another front of the culture war. We have enough division already, trying to force everyone to say "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays" because you're afraid that about a quarter of the US is non-Christian is just annoying.


I know you aren't saying you don't like Christmas. I don't assume that because someone isn't on Christmas' side, that they must hate Christmas. I know you don't hate it. Although you are wrongly blaming Christmas when you should be blaming the materialistic people. Your blame is greatly misguide and misdirected.

I don't believe culture is trying to attack Christmas... But I also understand seeing things how others see it is important. I judge someone's belief is by how much merit their belief has. A christian sees Christmas as holy, and if they believe it's under attack, it'd only be right for them to defend it. There is at least that much merit to why they get defensive.

But it's *not* under attack

Yes. we know this.. They don't. They think it is under attack, and it's only appropriate that they get defensive over such an important part of their culture. They aren't correct, but at least there is merit to why they get mad, remember that small anti-christian groups are extremely loud. Nothing is louder than a militant atheist.


"You" referring to the idiots like Sarah Palin in her new book about Christmas
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thett3
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12/5/2013 4:56:45 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 4:51:17 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 12/5/2013 4:37:49 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/5/2013 4:33:50 PM, donald.keller wrote:
Like I said... Same festivals, different holidays.

Exactly, the supposed birthdate of Jesus was invented by the Church to try and get more pagan converts. So to say that Christmas somehow has it's roots in something holy and spiritual (to Christians) is wrong. It was just a disguised pagan holiday. Which makes the "war on Christmas" rhetoric even more foolish because the root of Christmas is paganism. Yes it was created as a church holiday, but from a sociological perspective it's just a continuation of the same thing.

The idea of Christmas wasn't invented to advertise.

Yeah, it was. My source literally said just that. It was invented to make Christianity more appealing to the pagan masses. I mean I don't claim to be an expert on ancient history so if you have a source making the counter claim it might be right.

You're source is a Jewish site... Which, if you didn't know, isn't found of Christmas or Jesus.

That doesn't mean it's automatically wrong. My second source is a Christian site and said about Christmas:

"Study any reputable encyclopedia or visit a well-stocked public library and you will discover that Christmas was celebrated by immoral, pagan idol worshippers"people who many times sacrificed their children to pagan gods"2,000 years before Christ was born! December 25th originally marked the time of the winter solstice. These idol worshippers held pagan festivals to celebrate the "rebirth" of the sun when the days began to lengthen."



Only the date and type of festivities applied to it was used to do that. The root of Christianity isn't pagan, only the holiday it shared it's festival with. And again, you are over-simplifying it. You're seeing it like it's the Roman Empire being the continuity from the Kingdom of Rome, when it's more like from the Persian Empire to Alexanders Empire. Same area, same citizens, different empires, different histories and just different everything else.

No, it's more like same holiday, same people, same traditions, just calling it something else.

Hardly. The reasons for celebrating is completely different, as well as the center of the festival. The pagan holiday was a day of lawlessness where the courts were closed and you couldn't be punished, and they fatten up a man with sinful things and killed him because they thought they were killing off sin for another year (according to your source). Completely different. The time of year and the types of festivities were the only similarity.

Right under that: "Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia. As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, "In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior"s birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been." The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc."

Again, it was invented to pacify fence sitting Pagans. It doesn't have roots in anything holy





Celebrating Jesus is important. But you can do that without a month long spree of materialism and bigotry towards people trying to "make war" on Christmas because they celebrate something else.


What does this have to do with it? Don't blame Christmas and Christians for what cooperation's and non-Christians did to it. Christmas isn't a materialistic holiday... People are materialistic, and pollute the happy meaning of Christmas. If they hate the consumerism they see around the season, they should make war against consumerism, not the holiday.

Agreed


It's not that I dislike Christmas (although I do hate the materialism very, very much) it's that I'm tired of people trying to make it another front of the culture war. We have enough division already, trying to force everyone to say "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays" because you're afraid that about a quarter of the US is non-Christian is just annoying.


I know you aren't saying you don't like Christmas. I don't assume that because someone isn't on Christmas' side, that they must hate Christmas. I know you don't hate it. Although you are wrongly blaming Christmas when you should be blaming the materialistic people. Your blame is greatly misguide and misdirected.

I don't believe culture is trying to attack Christmas... But I also understand seeing things how others see it is important. I judge someone's belief is by how much merit their belief has. A christian sees Christmas as holy, and if they believe it's under attack, it'd only be right for them to defend it. There is at least that much merit to why they get defensive.

But it's *not* under attack

Yes. we know this.. They don't. They think it is under attack, and it's only appropriate that they get defensive over such an important part of their culture. They aren't correct, but at least there is merit to why they get mad, remember that small anti-christian groups are extremely loud. Nothing is louder than a militant atheist.


"You" referring to the idiots like Sarah Palin in her new book about Christmas
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
donald.keller
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12/5/2013 5:27:00 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 4:56:45 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/5/2013 4:51:17 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 12/5/2013 4:37:49 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 12/5/2013 4:33:50 PM, donald.keller wrote:
Like I said... Same festivals, different holidays.

Exactly, the supposed birthdate of Jesus was invented by the Church to try and get more pagan converts. So to say that Christmas somehow has it's roots in something holy and spiritual (to Christians) is wrong. It was just a disguised pagan holiday. Which makes the "war on Christmas" rhetoric even more foolish because the root of Christmas is paganism. Yes it was created as a church holiday, but from a sociological perspective it's just a continuation of the same thing.

The idea of Christmas wasn't invented to advertise.

Yeah, it was. My source literally said just that. It was invented to make Christianity more appealing to the pagan masses. I mean I don't claim to be an expert on ancient history so if you have a source making the counter claim it might be right.

You're source is a Jewish site... Which, if you didn't know, isn't found of Christmas or Jesus.

That doesn't mean it's automatically wrong. My second source is a Christian site and said about Christmas:

It does make it questionable. Never trust a site from an opposing religion to provide facts regarding another.


"Study any reputable encyclopedia or visit a well-stocked public library and you will discover that Christmas was celebrated by immoral, pagan idol worshippers"people who many times sacrificed their children to pagan gods"2,000 years before Christ was born! December 25th originally marked the time of the winter solstice. These idol worshippers held pagan festivals to celebrate the "rebirth" of the sun when the days began to lengthen."

Again, holding the holiday accountable to what the people celebrating it did. The holiday itself was about the coming of Christ. Yes, the religious leaders allowed people to celebrate it through very unholy means. That's on their hands. But the premise of the holiday remained the same. The holiday was still holy, even if the people themselves weren't very holy during the celebration. (this also addresses you're next paragraph, for simplicity.) The sins of it's founders has nothing to do with it, especially not a thousand years later when the tradition as to how the holiday is celebrated is completely different.

That's the largest issue here... How the holiday is celebrated is different. Even now, everyone celebrates each holiday a little differently from one another. The holiness of Christmas isn't altered by how unholy the way people choose to celebrate it is.

The problem is that, regardless of any of these, the initial point I tried making is all the same still... It's completely irrelevant. It could be Saturnalia that we celebrate today, and if it's coming under attack (or if they believe it is), they'd be right to defend it (if they consider it holy.) It doesn't matter how they celebrated a thousand ears ago... Here and now, it's a very holy holiday about the promise and coming of Christ.

This is like when people try to devalue the US by discussing how it came to exist.. Like that henryajevans guy I debated who said Palestinians were right to bomb Israel because of how it was created nearly a century ago... Christians are defending what Christmas celebrates, and how the holiday came to exist isn't really important in that.




Only the date and type of festivities applied to it was used to do that. The root of Christianity isn't pagan, only the holiday it shared it's festival with. And again, you are over-simplifying it. You're seeing it like it's the Roman Empire being the continuity from the Kingdom of Rome, when it's more like from the Persian Empire to Alexanders Empire. Same area, same citizens, different empires, different histories and just different everything else.

No, it's more like same holiday, same people, same traditions, just calling it something else.

Hardly. The reasons for celebrating is completely different, as well as the center of the festival. The pagan holiday was a day of lawlessness where the courts were closed and you couldn't be punished, and they fatten up a man with sinful things and killed him because they thought they were killing off sin for another year (according to your source). Completely different. The time of year and the types of festivities were the only similarity.

Right under that: "Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia. As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, "In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior"s birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been." The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc."

Again, it was invented to pacify fence sitting Pagans. It doesn't have roots in anything holy

Don't confuse it's holiness with how unholy the people celebrating it were.





Celebrating Jesus is important. But you can do that without a month long spree of materialism and bigotry towards people trying to "make war" on Christmas because they celebrate something else.


What does this have to do with it? Don't blame Christmas and Christians for what cooperation's and non-Christians did to it. Christmas isn't a materialistic holiday... People are materialistic, and pollute the happy meaning of Christmas. If they hate the consumerism they see around the season, they should make war against consumerism, not the holiday.

Agreed


It's not that I dislike Christmas (although I do hate the materialism very, very much) it's that I'm tired of people trying to make it another front of the culture war. We have enough division already, trying to force everyone to say "Merry Christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays" because you're afraid that about a quarter of the US is non-Christian is just annoying.


I know you aren't saying you don't like Christmas. I don't assume that because someone isn't on Christmas' side, that they must hate Christmas. I know you don't hate it. Although you are wrongly blaming Christmas when you should be blaming the materialistic people. Your blame is greatly misguide and misdirected.

I don't believe culture is trying to attack Christmas... But I also understand seeing things how others see it is important. I judge someone's belief is by how much merit their belief has. A christian sees Christmas as holy, and if they believe it's under attack, it'd only be right for them to defend it. There is at least that much merit to why they get defensive.

But it's *not* under attack

Yes. we know this.. They don't. They think it is under attack, and it's only appropriate that they get defensive over such an important part of their culture. They aren't correct, but at least there is merit to why they get mad, remember that small anti-christian groups are extremely loud. Nothing is louder than a militant atheist.


"You" referring to the idiots like Sarah Palin in her new book about Christmas

I won't be back to reply anytime soon. I have 2 arguments due right now.
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Citrakayah
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12/5/2013 8:45:06 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 5:27:00 PM, donald.keller wrote:
It does make it questionable. Never trust a site from an opposing religion to provide facts regarding another.

Christianity and Judaism can hardly be described in this era as "opposed."

Well, I suppose Judaism is opposed to the fundamentalists who think we'll go to Hell, but that's something else entirely.

That's the largest issue here... How the holiday is celebrated is different. Even now, everyone celebrates each holiday a little differently from one another. The holiness of Christmas isn't altered by how unholy the way people choose to celebrate it is.

A holiday is a social construct, though, not an objective entity. It has no existence other than that which we give it. If it is, to use your words, celebrated in a way that is "unholy" (though I am an agnostic atheist who keeps company with neopagans, so I find the whole holy/unholy divide to be socially constructed anyway, and a way for people to imply that pagan/neopagan religions are evil), then it is unholy.

You might, presuming the existence of a deity, be able to argue that a day is holy by virtue of being associated with a deity. But a holiday celebrated on that day isn't necessarily holy (it should be noted that by the actual definition of holy, something can be unholy and holy).
GeoLaureate8
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12/5/2013 9:50:17 PM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 3:00:00 PM, thett3 wrote:
people need to shut up about a supposed "War on Christmas".

You are utterly false. There is a war on Christmas, secularists are suing schools who sing Silent Night, people are banned from saying Merry Christmas, billboards are put up across the United States disparaging Christmas and Jesus.

I've heard it all, "Christmas is pagan, go thank Druids" bla bla bla. Irrelevant. I like the Druids, I'm not a Christian, and Santa is secular.

The fact is, the Illuminati hates the family and wants Christmas ruined for everyone.
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Citrakayah
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12/6/2013 6:41:30 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 9:50:17 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 12/5/2013 3:00:00 PM, thett3 wrote:
people need to shut up about a supposed "War on Christmas".

You are utterly false. There is a war on Christmas, secularists are suing schools who sing Silent Night, people are banned from saying Merry Christmas, billboards are put up across the United States disparaging Christmas and Jesus.

I've heard it all, "Christmas is pagan, go thank Druids" bla bla bla. Irrelevant. I like the Druids, I'm not a Christian, and Santa is secular.

The fact is, the Illuminati hates the family and wants Christmas ruined for everyone.

I play a druid in World of Warcraft.
drhead
Posts: 1,475
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12/6/2013 9:37:45 AM
Posted: 3 years ago
At 12/5/2013 9:50:17 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 12/5/2013 3:00:00 PM, thett3 wrote:
people need to shut up about a supposed "War on Christmas".

You are utterly false. There is a war on Christmas, secularists are suing schools who sing Silent Night, people are banned from saying Merry Christmas, billboards are put up across the United States disparaging Christmas and Jesus.

I've heard it all, "Christmas is pagan, go thank Druids" bla bla bla. Irrelevant. I like the Druids, I'm not a Christian, and Santa is secular.

The fact is, the Illuminati hates the family and wants Christmas ruined for everyone.

I love how the Illuminati just gets thrown in here for no apparent reason.

I'm agnostic. I still celebrate Christmas. I do not understand why people would get their panties in a wad over other people celebrating Christmas in some of the contexts described here. I can see arguments for nativity scenes on public property since that is an actual separation of church and state issue, but I have never seen people get sued for acknowledging the existence of the holiday. I know that Texas recently passed a bill that simply restated what has already been established long ago by Supreme Court rulings (specifically the ability to put up religious displays as long as more than one symbol is put up, as well as the ability to say merry Christmas in public schools). However, if conservative Texas has to pass a law to protect themselves from such persecution, surely I'd be able to see these viewpoints being expressed.

By the way, I think I can safely say that the vast majority of atheists don't really care about whether or not any specific person celebrates Christmas or not, nor do they cre how they celebrate it, as long as they don't have to celebrate it if they don't want to. There are complaints about people being forced to see trees with lights and ornaments on them, and there are complaints about people being forced to hear a generic "Happy Holidays" instead of having people refer to a specific holiday. Both complaints are equally without merit.
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