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Public vs. State

donald.keller
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1/9/2014 7:17:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I've never seen an article or story that separated Government into these two (or any number of) categories. Usually people just look at the Government as being just the Government, and it leads to numerous issues and uneducated talks of "Rights".

The Government is separated into Public and State ran institutions. While everything is paid for by people, not everything is owned by them.

Public = Owned by the People.
State = Owned by the Government.

An example of a Public institution would be a public park. An example of a State institution would be a military armory. The first sign of a Public institute is that you can enter without making an appointment, but that's only an theoretic sign, meaning it's not an absolute indicator.

The Military is State ran, while Medicare is Public ran. The difference is that the Public ran institutions are open-access and must reveal information regularly, or when asked. They are held responsible to the people. State ran institutions are closed to the public, and don't have to reveal information if they believe it's confidential. They are only held responsible to the Government.

Both have their benefits.

So my questions are:
1- Do you believe in a more State-ran or more Public-ran government?
2- Do you believe the US Public School System is becoming more of a State School System?
3- What institutes do you believe should be State ran, and which ones should be Public ran?
4- Are there other indicators to use when determining if something is State-ran or Public.
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TheAntidoter
Posts: 4,323
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1/10/2014 2:57:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/9/2014 7:17:20 PM, donald.keller wrote:
I've never seen an article or story that separated Government into these two (or any number of) categories. Usually people just look at the Government as being just the Government, and it leads to numerous issues and uneducated talks of "Rights".

The Government is separated into Public and State ran institutions. While everything is paid for by people, not everything is owned by them.

Public = Owned by the People.
State = Owned by the Government.

An example of a Public institution would be a public park. An example of a State institution would be a military armory. The first sign of a Public institute is that you can enter without making an appointment, but that's only an theoretic sign, meaning it's not an absolute indicator.

The Military is State ran, while Medicare is Public ran. The difference is that the Public ran institutions are open-access and must reveal information regularly, or when asked. They are held responsible to the people. State ran institutions are closed to the public, and don't have to reveal information if they believe it's confidential. They are only held responsible to the Government.

Both have their benefits.

So my questions are:
1- Do you believe in a more State-ran or more Public-ran government?

State Ran. I feel as if the Open checks work to an extent, but it takes the power of the state to get things done to the scale they need to be done, provided the state is a good one.
2- Do you believe the US Public School System is becoming more of a State School System?

Definitely, with exceptions to post-Graduate education.
3- What institutes do you believe should be State ran, and which ones should be Public ran?
Space Exploration should be handed to the private sector, but NASA should handle more research.
4- Are there other indicators to use when determining if something is State-ran or Public.

I can't think of them.
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Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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1/10/2014 5:05:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The truth is that people think there's a difference between the two terms but there actually isn't. "Publicly owned" is just a nice way of saying that something is owned by the government.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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1/10/2014 5:51:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/10/2014 5:05:36 PM, Korashk wrote:
The truth is that people think there's a difference between the two terms but there actually isn't. "Publicly owned" is just a nice way of saying that something is owned by the government.

There is a difference... Public means it's open to the public. It's not as much a matter of who owns it, as much as it is a matter of who has free access to it.

Example: The Library is Public, while a Prison is State.
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Korashk
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1/11/2014 12:08:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/10/2014 5:51:29 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 1/10/2014 5:05:36 PM, Korashk wrote:
The truth is that people think there's a difference between the two terms but there actually isn't. "Publicly owned" is just a nice way of saying that something is owned by the government.

There is a difference... Public means it's open to the public. It's not as much a matter of who owns it, as much as it is a matter of who has free access to it.

Example: The Library is Public, while a Prison is State.

War-Mart is open to the public. That doesn't make it owned by the people.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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1/11/2014 12:17:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/11/2014 12:08:20 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 1/10/2014 5:51:29 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 1/10/2014 5:05:36 PM, Korashk wrote:
The truth is that people think there's a difference between the two terms but there actually isn't. "Publicly owned" is just a nice way of saying that something is owned by the government.

There is a difference... Public means it's open to the public. It's not as much a matter of who owns it, as much as it is a matter of who has free access to it.

Example: The Library is Public, while a Prison is State.

War-Mart is open to the public. That doesn't make it owned by the people.

Wal-marts not a Government Institution.
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Korashk
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1/11/2014 12:18:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/11/2014 12:08:20 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 1/10/2014 5:51:29 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 1/10/2014 5:05:36 PM, Korashk wrote:
The truth is that people think there's a difference between the two terms but there actually isn't. "Publicly owned" is just a nice way of saying that something is owned by the government.

There is a difference... Public means it's open to the public. It's not as much a matter of who owns it, as much as it is a matter of who has free access to it.

Example: The Library is Public, while a Prison is State.

War-Mart is open to the public. That doesn't make it owned by the people.

Also you explicitly defined public in this context as a term signifying ownership.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Oromagi
Posts: 857
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1/11/2014 12:24:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
False distinction.

Free dictionary definition of public ownership-

public ownership
n
1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) ownership by the state; nationalization

Wikipedia definition of state ownership-

State ownership, also called public ownership, government ownership or state property, are property interests that are vested in the state, rather than an individual
DeFool
Posts: 626
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1/11/2014 1:40:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Ours is a democratic state, and a democratic government. We are proud of this.

Those things that are "ran by the state" and those that are "controlled by the public" can all fit neatly into another category that can be called "voter authorized." Or we can call it something else.

For example the armories that we are not allowed to go wandering about in. These are entirely funded and maintained with help from our members of congress, whose decisions on the matter we can guide should we collectively decide to do so. We can similarly compel the actions of other representatives, with the group authority of the ballot.

Popular will in America is eventually omnipotent.
donald.keller
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1/11/2014 2:03:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/11/2014 12:24:07 AM, Oromagi wrote:
False distinction.

Free dictionary definition of public ownership-

public ownership
n
1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) ownership by the state; nationalization

Wikipedia definition of state ownership-

State ownership, also called public ownership, government ownership or state property, are property interests that are vested in the state, rather than an individual

I'm making a new distinction between the two. Not a distinction or definition that already exist. The distinction I'm making is about if it's open-access and who it's accountable to, etc... They are both paid for by the people, and owned by the state, but not all of them are 'public'.

My definitions are meant to be different, or I wouldn't put them forward like a new take on things.
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donald.keller
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1/11/2014 2:04:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/11/2014 12:18:23 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 1/11/2014 12:08:20 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 1/10/2014 5:51:29 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 1/10/2014 5:05:36 PM, Korashk wrote:
The truth is that people think there's a difference between the two terms but there actually isn't. "Publicly owned" is just a nice way of saying that something is owned by the government.

There is a difference... Public means it's open to the public. It's not as much a matter of who owns it, as much as it is a matter of who has free access to it.

Example: The Library is Public, while a Prison is State.

War-Mart is open to the public. That doesn't make it owned by the people.

Also you explicitly defined public in this context as a term signifying ownership.

One minor piece to the definition. And a word used more symbolically to differentiate who it's accountable to and who actually has access to it.
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donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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1/11/2014 2:10:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/11/2014 1:40:19 AM, DeFool wrote:
Ours is a democratic state, and a democratic government. We are proud of this.

Those things that are "ran by the state" and those that are "controlled by the public" can all fit neatly into another category that can be called "voter authorized." Or we can call it something else.

For example the armories that we are not allowed to go wandering about in. These are entirely funded and maintained with help from our members of congress, whose decisions on the matter we can guide should we collectively decide to do so. We can similarly compel the actions of other representatives, with the group authority of the ballot.

Popular will in America is eventually omnipotent.

yes... Once we get to the top of the ladder, we control it all because we control the state. We don't control it because it's all Public (by the definition of public I put forth) but because we can vote. But in the end, you still can't walk into an Armory because it's not public-access.

I guess a better phrase than Public-ran and State-ran would be Public/State Property. Who can access it freely. The different between the two becomes apparent when they say you don't have authorization because you aren't with the state.
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DeFool
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1/11/2014 2:24:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/11/2014 2:10:53 AM, donald.keller wrote:
At 1/11/2014 1:40:19 AM, DeFool wrote:
Ours is a democratic state, and a democratic government. We are proud of this.

Those things that are "ran by the state" and those that are "controlled by the public" can all fit neatly into another category that can be called "voter authorized." Or we can call it something else.

For example the armories that we are not allowed to go wandering about in. These are entirely funded and maintained with help from our members of congress, whose decisions on the matter we can guide should we collectively decide to do so. We can similarly compel the actions of other representatives, with the group authority of the ballot.

Popular will in America is eventually omnipotent.

yes... Once we get to the top of the ladder, we control it all because we control the state. We don't control it because it's all Public (by the definition of public I put forth) but because we can vote. But in the end, you still can't walk into an Armory because it's not public-access.

I guess a better phrase than Public-ran and State-ran would be Public/State Property. Who can access it freely. The different between the two becomes apparent when they say you don't have authorization because you aren't with the state.

It seems as if you regard state employees as almost non-human. As if they are not also members of the "public." The definition of this word keeps shifting in this thread. Your home is also not open to the public. Neither is any privately operated office building. Yet office buildings and private homes are controlled by the "public," and not this or that state agency.

As of now, I can no longer confidently say that I have any real idea what we are talking about.
donald.keller
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1/11/2014 2:32:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/11/2014 2:24:51 AM, DeFool wrote:
At 1/11/2014 2:10:53 AM, donald.keller wrote:
At 1/11/2014 1:40:19 AM, DeFool wrote:
Ours is a democratic state, and a democratic government. We are proud of this.

Those things that are "ran by the state" and those that are "controlled by the public" can all fit neatly into another category that can be called "voter authorized." Or we can call it something else.

For example the armories that we are not allowed to go wandering about in. These are entirely funded and maintained with help from our members of congress, whose decisions on the matter we can guide should we collectively decide to do so. We can similarly compel the actions of other representatives, with the group authority of the ballot.

Popular will in America is eventually omnipotent.

yes... Once we get to the top of the ladder, we control it all because we control the state. We don't control it because it's all Public (by the definition of public I put forth) but because we can vote. But in the end, you still can't walk into an Armory because it's not public-access.

I guess a better phrase than Public-ran and State-ran would be Public/State Property. Who can access it freely. The different between the two becomes apparent when they say you don't have authorization because you aren't with the state.

It seems as if you regard state employees as almost non-human. As if they are not also members of the "public." The definition of this word keeps shifting in this thread. Your home is also not open to the public. Neither is any privately operated office building. Yet office buildings and private homes are controlled by the "public," and not this or that state agency.


I don't regard anyone as not human. An employee at a Casey's General Store can enter the cooler but a customer can't. This doesn't imply the employee isn't human. The state employees are members of the Public AND the State, while everyone else is just a member of the Public.

It doesn't have to do with humanity. but job description and privileges.

After that and the other guy using Walmart as a example, I think I understand now.... I'm not splitting up everything in the nation. I'm just talking about Government building and agencies. Unless your home is owned by the government, it's not apart of either of these.

As of now, I can no longer confidently say that I have any real idea what we are talking about.
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