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My country(Phil)is being bullied by China.

Juris
Posts: 109
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1/16/2014 7:27:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I am from the Philippines. The scarborough shoal, part of our territoryin the West Philippine Sea(south china sea), is being claimed by China as part of their territory. China has already sent war ships in that area which is really an aggressive behavior. It has also issued a new policy in the disputed territory which would require my country to recognize the whole area as part of their territory.

Legally speaking, we have the right to that disputed territory. International law favors us. The territory is part of our exclusive economic zone. We have been trying to settle this issue through arbitration but China would deny any participation to settle this dispute peacefully. China wants to settle this issue by force.

We are backed by the International law. The territory is ours. Even if we are not that strong militarilily, we will fight for what is ours because we have a right.

What should be done with this?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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1/16/2014 8:27:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/16/2014 7:27:17 AM, Juris wrote:
I am from the Philippines. The scarborough shoal, part of our territoryin the West Philippine Sea(south china sea), is being claimed by China as part of their territory. China has already sent war ships in that area which is really an aggressive behavior. It has also issued a new policy in the disputed territory which would require my country to recognize the whole area as part of their territory.

Legally speaking, we have the right to that disputed territory. International law favors us. The territory is part of our exclusive economic zone. We have been trying to settle this issue through arbitration but China would deny any participation to settle this dispute peacefully. China wants to settle this issue by force.

We are backed by the International law. The territory is ours. Even if we are not that strong militarilily, we will fight for what is ours because we have a right.

What should be done with this?

EEZ is still international waters, so legally speaking, the claims are all nebulous.

There's no question China is claiming areas well beyond their own shores, but technically they have not been provocative.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Juris
Posts: 109
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1/16/2014 9:44:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago

EEZ is still international waters, so legally speaking, the claims are all nebulous.

There's no question China is claiming areas well beyond their own shores, but technically they have not been provocative.

It is not nebulous. The international law is clear about this issue. We do not claim the waters, only an economic right as prescribed by the EEZ.

China has already sent war ships, made verbal threats and intimidation, and issued their own policy on that area. Aren't these acts provocative? Even the US government recognizes these kinds of provocation from China.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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1/17/2014 12:34:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/16/2014 9:44:33 PM, Juris wrote:

EEZ is still international waters, so legally speaking, the claims are all nebulous.

There's no question China is claiming areas well beyond their own shores, but technically they have not been provocative.


It is not nebulous. The international law is clear about this issue. We do not claim the waters, only an economic right as prescribed by the EEZ.

Neither does China. They also claim it as an economic right prescribed as an EEZ extending from their claim on the Scarborough shoal.

China has already sent war ships, made verbal threats and intimidation, and issued their own policy on that area. Aren't these acts provocative? Even the US government recognizes these kinds of provocation from China.

The US will recognize intimidation when there isn't any. The US has much more reason to see this region destabilize than the Philippines or China. That gives the US reason to move in.

Another way to look at this situation is to view the recent hurricane relief efforts. How many WARSHIPS did the US send in ostensible disaster relief? Just think about that. Yes China was slow and everything, even with monetary aid, no question, but what if China did the same and sent warships into the region as well? Who would have been responsible for WWIII at that point? Why is China being criticized for not being "as responsive" as the West when the West made an overt military gesture?

So, China sent a ship that under the Geneva conventions would have been a human rights violation to attack, i.e. a hospital ship.

Same conflict, different framing, different mindset.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Juris
Posts: 109
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1/17/2014 7:31:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/17/2014 12:34:01 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 1/16/2014 9:44:33 PM, Juris wrote:



Neither does China. They also claim it as an economic right prescribed as an EEZ extending from their claim on the Scarborough shoal.

For the record, China does not have an economic right over that area. There is a 200 nautical mile EEZ according to the International law. China is 1000 nautical miles away from the Scarborough shoal, while our country is just over 100 miles. So it is clear that we have the legal right to it.



The US will recognize intimidation when there isn't any. The US has much more reason to see this region destabilize than the Philippines or China. That gives the US reason to move in.

Actually, the US slammed China with its new fishing restrictions, saying that the act was provocative. Some US lawmakers consider that kind of provocation already. I read that from our national newspaper. I am not specifically familiar with the names, but they are from both republican and democratic parties. You may check that if you want.

Also, China does not respect the UNCLOS and other maritime laws. We have been trying to settle the dispute to a proper place like in the UN, but China rejects this proper way of settling dispute.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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1/17/2014 7:40:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/17/2014 7:31:26 AM, Juris wrote:
At 1/17/2014 12:34:01 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 1/16/2014 9:44:33 PM, Juris wrote:



Neither does China. They also claim it as an economic right prescribed as an EEZ extending from their claim on the Scarborough shoal.

For the record, China does not have an economic right over that area. There is a 200 nautical mile EEZ according to the International law. China is 1000 nautical miles away from the Scarborough shoal, while our country is just over 100 miles. So it is clear that we have the legal right to it.

sigh. You do not seem to recognize the points of the actual dispute. According to China, their EEZ extends from the Scarborough shoal, which they claim.

It's not clear anyone has the legal right to the shoal, which is the reason why it's called a dispute.

The US will recognize intimidation when there isn't any. The US has much more reason to see this region destabilize than the Philippines or China. That gives the US reason to move in.

Actually, the US slammed China with its new fishing restrictions, saying that the act was provocative. Some US lawmakers consider that kind of provocation already. I read that from our national newspaper. I am not specifically familiar with the names, but they are from both republican and democratic parties. You may check that if you want.

You just supported my point. The US will default to interpreting anything in the region as provocation.

Also, China does not respect the UNCLOS and other maritime laws. We have been trying to settle the dispute to a proper place like in the UN, but China rejects this proper way of settling dispute.

Link of violations? As far as I know, China has been operating within parameters, given that they claim the shoal.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Juris
Posts: 109
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1/17/2014 8:12:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago

sigh. You do not seem to recognize the points of the actual dispute. According to China, their EEZ extends from the Scarborough shoal, which they claim.


Good grief. According to China they have a right to that disputed area, but according to the International law, China's claim is futile. Another, this is not a national issue but an international one. So the International law and other maritime laws must govern, not Chinese laws.

It's not clear anyone has the legal right to the shoal, which is the reason why it's called a dispute

Well the International law is clear. It just happens that China does not want to settle it through arbitration.


Link of violations? As far as I know, China has been operating within parameters, given that they claim the shoal.

Well, ADIZ and its declaration of a new fishing restrictions in the disputed area are clear violation. Because if it is not clear who has the economic right over the area being disputed, then why they have already made such declaration?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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1/17/2014 8:39:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/17/2014 8:12:45 AM, Juris wrote:

sigh. You do not seem to recognize the points of the actual dispute. According to China, their EEZ extends from the Scarborough shoal, which they claim.


Good grief. According to China they have a right to that disputed area, but according to the International law, China's claim is futile. Another, this is not a national issue but an international one. So the International law and other maritime laws must govern, not Chinese laws.

International law is impotent without states like the US, Russia, and China enforcing them. Unfortunate but true.

Can you substantiate the underlined?

There's also this:

"Since the United Nations is unable to enforce decisions regarding territorial disputes between nation states, Agence France-Presse questioned whether Manila's appeal will have any bearing on the status quo. Furthermore, the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea cannot rule on the sovereignty of Scarborough Shoal; while the Chinese foreign ministry has stated that the action of the Philippines will never change the fact that the territory belongs to China."
http://www.wantchinatimes.com...

Extremely biased source, sure. Can you counter it?

It's not clear anyone has the legal right to the shoal, which is the reason why it's called a dispute

Well the International law is clear. It just happens that China does not want to settle it through arbitration.

It's clear on everything except who claims the Scarborough shoal, which is the point of contention.

Link of violations? As far as I know, China has been operating within parameters, given that they claim the shoal.

Well, ADIZ and its declaration of a new fishing restrictions in the disputed area are clear violation. Because if it is not clear who has the economic right over the area being disputed, then why they have already made such declaration?

To clarify matters? =)

---

Anyway, I don't have a stake in this and think China is overstretching, I just want to test the veracity of your claim.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
YYW
Posts: 36,243
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1/17/2014 10:16:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/16/2014 7:27:17 AM, Juris wrote:
I am from the Philippines. The scarborough shoal, part of our territoryin the West Philippine Sea(south china sea), is being claimed by China as part of their territory. China has already sent war ships in that area which is really an aggressive behavior. It has also issued a new policy in the disputed territory which would require my country to recognize the whole area as part of their territory.

Legally speaking, we have the right to that disputed territory. International law favors us. The territory is part of our exclusive economic zone. We have been trying to settle this issue through arbitration but China would deny any participation to settle this dispute peacefully. China wants to settle this issue by force.

We are backed by the International law. The territory is ours. Even if we are not that strong militarilily, we will fight for what is ours because we have a right.

What should be done with this?

Manilla is upset with Beijing because Manilla accuses the Chinese of laying the foundation for a permanent settlement in a disputed part of the South China Sea that that Manilla believes it has exclusive rights. Even though the area was never clearly internationally recognized (outside of the South Pacific) as being part of the Philippines, Scarborough Shoal is within the internationally recognized 370km "buffer zone" recognized by international maritime law which would grant exclusive rights to the Philippines.

The Chinese have more or less suggested that their reasons for establishing the settlement was in response to regional security concerns in response to American projection of power in the south pacific. They have also claimed that Scarborough Shoal "inherently" belongs to China -a claim which I think is without merit. But, there is very little hope for remediation for the Philippines in international law, regardless of whether China's actions are in violation of it or not. The thing to do would be, as I suspect your ambassador already has, to contact the US State Department and appeal for help. That is the case because the only way to stop the Chinese from taking what is not necessarily theirs, is to give them a very good reason not to.
jh1234l
Posts: 580
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1/17/2014 10:39:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 1/16/2014 7:27:17 AM, Juris wrote:
I am from the Philippines. The scarborough shoal, part of our territoryin the West Philippine Sea(south china sea), is being claimed by China as part of their territory. China has already sent war ships in that area which is really an aggressive behavior. It has also issued a new policy in the disputed territory which would require my country to recognize the whole area as part of their territory.

Legally speaking, we have the right to that disputed territory. International law favors us. The territory is part of our exclusive economic zone. We have been trying to settle this issue through arbitration but China would deny any participation to settle this dispute peacefully. China wants to settle this issue by force.

We are backed by the International law. The territory is ours. Even if we are not that strong militarilily, we will fight for what is ours because we have a right.

What should be done with this?

According to Chinese state media, they are not claiming ownership of the area of waters surrounding it. They are calling it an "Air Defense Identification Zone", which is something that many nations, including the United States, South Korea, and Japan, have. However, considering that the media is state controlled, the government might be using it for other purposes.
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