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Suicide bombing and Islam

NiqashMotawadi3
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2/16/2014 8:14:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
It's common to hear people blame socio-political factors for suicide-bombing, but I'm not convinced anymore that they do play such a major role, I think that Islamic upbringing has more to do with suicide-bombing more than anything.

For instance, in Lebanon now, we have many suicide bombers but they're either Sunni Muslims hired by Islamic political groups or Shiah Muslims that work for Hezbollah(such as Ahmad Qaseer).

And yet not one Christian, Arab bomber.

I think the situtation is similar in Iraq and Syria where the suicide bombers, I presume, are all Muslims.

I suppose that everyone in this region is under pretty much the same political factors, but people from Islamic communities, especially young men that fall in love with radical Islam and have some sort of Islamic upbringing, are more destined to become suicide-bombers than others, even if they ended up serving a political cause, and not a purely religious one. Hence, this whole phenomenon seems to be driven more by the Islamic culture and upbringing, than anything else, although some Arab scholars (Richard Khoury, Edward Saed) and I suppose western scholars such as Noam Chomsky argue that it is more of a reaction to the encroachment of secular modernization on the Orient.
Artur
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2/16/2014 9:34:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
It's common to hear people blame socio-political factors for suicide-bombing, but I'm not convinced anymore that they do play such a major role, I think that Islamic upbringing has more to do with suicide-bombing more than anything.

I dont think ISlam plays such big role, I think people who brainwash others plays big role. Quran is not new to me, unlike media and rumours, quran is not a book which supports terrorism, but when we think history, several centuries ago it was christians who did such things, they slaughtered, they massacred, they conquered, even the term "HOLY WAR" IS FROM christian POPE. it is not due to christianity but due to its leader.

I think it is socio-political factor which cause muslims assist suicide-bombing, I think IMAM or whoever leader is brainwashes his followers.

I dont know so many hadeeths but I very doubt that suicide is supported in any way by Islam.

For instance, in Lebanon now, we have many suicide bombers but they're either Sunni Muslims hired by Islamic political groups or Shiah Muslims that work for Hezbollah(such as Ahmad Qaseer).

as you wrote, I think it is people who mislead muslims to do such thing for political reason.
if NATO or the USA wants to enter to that country, then they may use muslims for such thing.

for more than two months, I have been working in turkey, majority of Turkey is muslims, in the place I live there are christians too, immigrants like me.
there are muslim leaders from the east of turkey and they propogate JIHAD, they say:

"come with me, we will have jihad in the sake of ALLAH, we will fight against Esad"
"support us, donate u with money, we will use it against ESAD and for the sake of ALLAH"

I guess this man wants to use people via religion, he may be working for NATO or antiEsad movement, with Islam he wants to use people for his purpose.

considering such things, I think it is political muslim leaders who cause them to mispractice Islam and do suicide bombing.

here, I work with turks and foreigners too, muslims in turkey are good, they do not support suicide bombing, they dont support killing the one who left islam, they support religious freedom.

but still, there are some leaders who try to brainwash people here, they succed sometimes, in turkey several times it occured but very rarely. {Turkish people said it}

and when you sometimes look at western media, media says:
"send muslims out of europe/use, at the time they become majority of population they will fight for Shariah and send you out of here"

now, I am in turkey and before here I worked in one more muslim country, before that I worked in the society with majority of it Jehovahs. but in turkey, some sources say that at least 95% of turkey is muslim, but they dont act as it is reported by media.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
NiqashMotawadi3
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2/16/2014 11:12:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/16/2014 9:34:52 AM, Artur wrote:
It's common to hear people blame socio-political factors for suicide-bombing, but I'm not convinced anymore that they do play such a major role, I think that Islamic upbringing has more to do with suicide-bombing more than anything.

I dont think ISlam plays such big role, I think people who brainwash others plays big role. Quran is not new to me, unlike media and rumours, quran is not a book which supports terrorism, but when we think history, several centuries ago it was christians who did such things, they slaughtered, they massacred, they conquered, even the term "HOLY WAR" IS FROM christian POPE. it is not due to christianity but due to its leader.


My question was why don't we have Christian suicide-bombers in the Arab world, when we are all under external, political influences, whether Christians, Muslims or Atheists.

The Qur'an does not support terrorism, I agree, but arguably some of the practices of the Prophet do, and Islamic cultures do not really follow the Qur'an, but follow the cultural evolution that took place in Islamic beliefs, which sometimes leads to moderate Islam (which is found in countries like Turkey and is a bit away from the Qur'anic teachings), and sometimes leads to Radial Islam (which misunderstands and teaches the misunderstanding of Jihadism and is away from the Qur'anic teachings).

However, I see the religious influences of such Islamic cultures to be more effective than simply putting the blame on the Western world or on Western influences, which are not explicit toward Arab Muslims but also involve Arab Christians, as you can simply deduce from the current political crisis in Lebanon and Syria.
NiqashMotawadi3
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2/16/2014 11:15:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/16/2014 9:34:52 AM, Artur wrote:
It's common to hear people blame socio-political factors for suicide-bombing, but I'm not convinced anymore that they do play such a major role, I think that Islamic upbringing has more to do with suicide-bombing more than anything.

I dont think ISlam plays such big role, I think people who brainwash others plays big role. Quran is not new to me, unlike media and rumours, quran is not a book which supports terrorism, but when we think history, several centuries ago it was christians who did such things, they slaughtered, they massacred, they conquered, even the term "HOLY WAR" IS FROM christian POPE. it is not due to christianity but due to its leader.


My question was why don't we have Christian suicide-bombers in the Arab world, when we are all under external, political influences, whether Christians, Muslims or Atheists.

The Qur'an does not support terrorism, I agree, but arguably some of the practices of the Prophet do, and Islamic cultures do not really follow the Qur'an, but follow the cultural evolution that took place in Islamic beliefs, which sometimes leads to moderate Islam (which is found in countries like Turkey and is a bit away from the Qur'anic teachings), and sometimes leads to Radical Islam (which teaches the misunderstanding of Jihadism and is away from the Qur'anic teachings).

However, I see the religious influences of such Islamic cultures to be more effective than simply putting the blame on the Western world or on Western influences, which are not explicit toward Arab Muslims but also involve Arab Christians, as you can simply deduce from the current political crisis in Lebanon and Syria.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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2/16/2014 11:37:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Religion at maximum only has partial and indirect influence. The justification I've come across from a scholar is that suicide bombing is acceptable when a necessary task needs to be performed. Perhaps by recruiting amateur soldiers and using them as living bombs, they can save time, perform management without high risk of detection, and avoid having possible testifiers against the terrorist groups (such as location, etc.).
NiqashMotawadi3
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2/16/2014 12:03:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/16/2014 11:37:10 AM, Mirza wrote:
Religion at maximum only has partial and indirect influence. The justification I've come across from a scholar is that suicide bombing is acceptable when a necessary task needs to be performed. Perhaps by recruiting amateur soldiers and using them as living bombs, they can save time, perform management without high risk of detection, and avoid having possible testifiers against the terrorist groups (such as location, etc.).

Yet oddly, it's just Muslims in the Arab world who volunteer to be suicide-bombers?
Artur
Posts: 719
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2/16/2014 12:10:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
My question was why don't we have Christian suicide-bombers in the Arab world, when we are all under external, political influences, whether Christians, Muslims or Atheists.

I think it easy to mislead people with Islam that it is to do with christianity. fro example: JIhad. with this word, you may mislead muslims who has less knowledge. but, in christianity, they almost ignore the OT and they follow NT, it is so hard to mislead people with NT to do something like holy-war or suicide bombing.
this is my opinion why there are no christian arab suicider while there are muslim.

The Qur'an does not support terrorism, I agree, but arguably some of the practices of the Prophet do

for example?
he had wars, killings but as far as I read, he didnot do something which can be compared with suiicide [bombing].

and Islamic cultures do not really follow the Qur'an, but follow the cultural evolution that took place in Islamic beliefs

that is the problem of muslims.

for example: there is one hadeeth which says: "person who left islam should be killed" but when I asked IMAM about this hadith in turkey, IMAM said:
that contradicts the quran, quran says: "let there be no compulsion in religion"
and added: that is why when I explain Islam I dont support that hadith.

which sometimes leads to moderate Islam (which is found in countries like Turkey and is a bit away from the Qur'anic teachings),
you lived with muslims and still live, you know better than me, but I want to ask:
can you give me example where turkish sunni muslims contradict Quranic teaching.

and sometimes leads to Radial Islam (which misunderstands and teaches the misunderstanding of Jihadism and is away from the Qur'anic teachings).
this is also one reason why there are muslim suiciders.

However, I see the religious influences of such Islamic cultures to be more effective than simply putting the blame on the Western world or on Western influences, which are not explicit toward Arab Muslims but also involve Arab Christians, as you can simply deduce from the current political crisis in Lebanon and Syria.
again, I dont think these are caused by Islamic culture, maybe it is the culture of people who believe in Islam, but I dont think it is due to Islam.

may be mestern world is totally innocent here, maybe western world has no relation.

and if it was the influence of Islamic culture, Turkey is also lives with Islam even though it is a secular government, but Turkish people have no such problems.

about religion in Turkey, wikipedia says:

Islam is the largest religion of Turkey with around 99.0% percent of the population being registered as Muslim.[1][2] Most Muslims in Turkey are Sunnis forming about 70%, and Alevis form about 25% of the Muslim population.[3] There is also a Twelver Shia community which forms about 5% of the Muslim population. Among Sunni Muslim presence in Turkey there is a small but considerable minority of Muslims with Sufi heritage and affiliation.[4] Christians (Oriental Orthodoxy, Greek Orthodox and Armenian Apostolic) and Jews (Sephardi), who comprise the non-Muslim population, make up 0.7% of the total.[1][5][6]

but still they have no such problems, I think it is people who mislead muslims is a problem in Syria or Lebanon, I dont think Islam is the problem for suicide bombing.
there was times it has occured in the past but not now.
"I'm not as soft or as generous a person as I would be if the world hadn't changed me" Bobby Fischer
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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2/16/2014 12:59:09 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
All the evidence I've seen indicates religion is an extremely minor issue in suicide bombings.

Robert Pape's Chicago Study on Suicide Terrorism found that up to 98.5% of suicide bombings are carried out for political purposes (resistance to foreign occupation), as opposed to religious.

This jives with reality, as there were only 5 suicide-bomber deaths per year in the 1980's, but 180 per year in 2000-2005 (coinciding with Western aggression in the Muslim world).

A non-Muslim "terrorist" group, the Tamil tigers, pioneered the use of the suicide belt, as well as using women/civilians in bombings, during the 70's-2000's.

Religion is certainly a factor (as it is in almost everything), but its connection as a driving force behind suicide bombings seems tenuous at best.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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2/17/2014 2:03:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/16/2014 8:14:31 AM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
It's common to hear people blame socio-political factors for suicide-bombing, but I'm not convinced anymore that they do play such a major role, I think that Islamic upbringing has more to do with suicide-bombing more than anything.

For instance, in Lebanon now, we have many suicide bombers but they're either Sunni Muslims hired by Islamic political groups or Shiah Muslims that work for Hezbollah(such as Ahmad Qaseer).

And yet not one Christian, Arab bomber.

I think the situtation is similar in Iraq and Syria where the suicide bombers, I presume, are all Muslims.

I suppose that everyone in this region is under pretty much the same political factors, but people from Islamic communities, especially young men that fall in love with radical Islam and have some sort of Islamic upbringing, are more destined to become suicide-bombers than others, even if they ended up serving a political cause, and not a purely religious one. Hence, this whole phenomenon seems to be driven more by the Islamic culture and upbringing, than anything else, although some Arab scholars (Richard Khoury, Edward Saed) and I suppose western scholars such as Noam Chomsky argue that it is more of a reaction to the encroachment of secular modernization on the Orient.

1) Correlation is not causation. You cite zero correlation with Christianity and suicide bombings, but do nothing to substantiate unique causation with Islam and suicide bombings divorced from socio-political factors.

2) You do not cite anything that would actually refute the underlined. Instead, you come up with a different theory that is irrelevant to the core assertion you are attempting to refute.

3) It could very well be that Islam was radicalized because of socio-political factors, similar to how the Bible Belt in America originated from the disenfranchised South. In order to kill and die for your religion, you must have a fervent belief in it, and fundamental religiosity tends to stem from socio-political factors.

Would highly recommend you watch the Iranian movie "A Separation". It makes this point quite well, as it contrasts a middle class family that engages in secularism with a religiously fundamental family that is poor and impoverished.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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2/17/2014 2:06:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/16/2014 12:03:42 PM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
At 2/16/2014 11:37:10 AM, Mirza wrote:
Religion at maximum only has partial and indirect influence. The justification I've come across from a scholar is that suicide bombing is acceptable when a necessary task needs to be performed. Perhaps by recruiting amateur soldiers and using them as living bombs, they can save time, perform management without high risk of detection, and avoid having possible testifiers against the terrorist groups (such as location, etc.).

Yet oddly, it's just Muslims in the Arab world who volunteer to be suicide-bombers?

Only Muslims in the Arab world are deeply impoverished, with a religious tradition that would put it diametrically opposed to Christianity, with whom they have been waging a cultural and political war ever since the birth of Islam.

IMHO Christianity was also birthed based upon an attempt to unify disparate cultures and regions against a common enemy, i.e. the decaying Roman empire vs "the East". This would explain why an "Oriental" religion (i.e. Judaism) with a long history of being extremely combative with its other Oriental cultures became the centerpiece of "Occidental" religiosity.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
NiqashMotawadi3
Posts: 1,895
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2/17/2014 6:41:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 2:06:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 2/16/2014 12:03:42 PM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
At 2/16/2014 11:37:10 AM, Mirza wrote:
Religion at maximum only has partial and indirect influence. The justification I've come across from a scholar is that suicide bombing is acceptable when a necessary task needs to be performed. Perhaps by recruiting amateur soldiers and using them as living bombs, they can save time, perform management without high risk of detection, and avoid having possible testifiers against the terrorist groups (such as location, etc.).

Yet oddly, it's just Muslims in the Arab world who volunteer to be suicide-bombers?

Only Muslims in the Arab world are deeply impoverished, with a religious tradition that would put it diametrically opposed to Christianity, with whom they have been waging a cultural and political war ever since the birth of Islam.


Not at all. I've seen Christian villages, for instance, in Lebanon and Syria and Iraq, which are as deeply impoverished as Sunni villages, but do not have any young men who are interested in suicide bombing. Please do not give us the almost universally-rejected Oriental conspiracy theory of Edward Saed.

Moreover, I never said that Islam is a causation of suicide-bombing as that was never the argument, if you read carefully. My only claim is that Islamic cultures, mainly due to the cultural evolution of Islam and and a misunderstanding of Jihadism, have this tendency to go for suicide-bombing in some Islamic societies. I do admit that poverty other factors play a role, but the argument here is what plays the main role, if something actually does, and a comparison with impoverished, Christian societies in Arab world, shows that there is more important factors than poverty that influence people from impoverished, Islamic societies to blow themselves up against Westerners and people from their own country, mainly religious intolerance which they suckle from the breasts of their mothers, which you seem to dismiss as an important factor.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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2/17/2014 12:02:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 6:41:05 AM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
At 2/17/2014 2:06:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 2/16/2014 12:03:42 PM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
At 2/16/2014 11:37:10 AM, Mirza wrote:
Religion at maximum only has partial and indirect influence. The justification I've come across from a scholar is that suicide bombing is acceptable when a necessary task needs to be performed. Perhaps by recruiting amateur soldiers and using them as living bombs, they can save time, perform management without high risk of detection, and avoid having possible testifiers against the terrorist groups (such as location, etc.).

Yet oddly, it's just Muslims in the Arab world who volunteer to be suicide-bombers?

Only Muslims in the Arab world are deeply impoverished, with a religious tradition that would put it diametrically opposed to Christianity, with whom they have been waging a cultural and political war ever since the birth of Islam.


Not at all. I've seen Christian villages, for instance, in Lebanon and Syria and Iraq, which are as deeply impoverished as Sunni villages, but do not have any young men who are interested in suicide bombing. Please do not give us the almost universally-rejected Oriental conspiracy theory of Edward Saed.

This would very heavily support socio-political causes behind the marriage of terrorism and radical Islam. In order for such terror networks to have even a chance of sustaining an existence, there must be societal acceptance, or at least tolerance, of such practices. This requires a critical mass of societal and political reticence against eradication of such influences.

What you're essentially saying is that Muslim communities have indeed reached this critical mass, whereas Christian communities have not. Enclaves of Christian communities in Muslim nations where they have little to no political influence simply cannot achieve or realize any significant socio-political goals.

Moreover, I never said that Islam is a causation of suicide-bombing as that was never the argument, if you read carefully. My only claim is that Islamic cultures, mainly due to the cultural evolution of Islam and and a misunderstanding of Jihadism, have this tendency to go for suicide-bombing in some Islamic societies.

This is not nuance but pure contradiction. On the one hand, you say that Islam does not cause suicide bombings...on the other hand, you fully admit that a "cultural evolution of Islam and a misunderstanding of Jihadism" result in suicide bombings. You also say directly in your OP that "I think that Islamic upbringing has more to do with suicide-bombing more than anything." This is a statement about causation.

I do admit that poverty other factors play a role, but the argument here is what plays the main role, if something actually does, and a comparison with impoverished, Christian societies in Arab world, shows that there is more important factors than poverty that influence people from impoverished, Islamic societies to blow themselves up against Westerners and people from their own country, mainly religious intolerance which they suckle from the breasts of their mothers, which you seem to dismiss as an important factor.

It's much more than just poverty, I just want to make that clear. In "A Separation", the impoverished family does not resort to suicide bombings or any sort of terrorism against the secular family...they merely want to live a peaceful, productive life.

It is poverty allied with militant cause. This militant cause can easily be seen as a foundational aspect of both Christianity and Islam.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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2/17/2014 12:05:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I would also like to note that "terrorism" is essentially the poor man's way to wage warfare. In the West and in east Asia, they typically don't resort to terrorism...they resort to full-blown armed conflict, which is orders of magnitude more destructive than terrorism.

So, poverty merely explains the method to waging war...it does not explain the causes of such conflict.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
NiqashMotawadi3
Posts: 1,895
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2/17/2014 2:59:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is not nuance but pure contradiction. On the one hand, you say that Islam does not cause suicide bombings...on the other hand, you fully admit that a "cultural evolution of Islam and a misunderstanding of Jihadism" result in suicide bombings. You also say directly in your OP that "I think that Islamic upbringing has more to do with suicide-bombing more than anything." This is a statement about causation.

Two points:

It's worth nothing that I do differentiate between Qur'anic Islam and cultural Islam, which seem like two different but related things. Hence, I blame Islamic cultures when I speak of cultural Islam. Qur'anic Islam, which is only contained in Islamic doctrines, seems mostly innocent of the way Islam evolved under the political conflicts and sectarian intolerance of the Islamic Caliphs and leaders, e.g Ali, Aisha, Umar, Uthman and what have you. This has little to do with the Qur'anic Islam that was supposedly revealed to the Prophet.

Two, I'm not arguing for causation, I'm just saying that Islamic households seem to have higher correlations when it comes to Islamic terrorism than a cultural separation, which I don't think is relevant nowadays. For example, Hezbollah soldiers are sometimes wealthy and educated and still ready to blow themselves up for their cause. It's a rather shallow assumption that suicide-bombers are only poor, uneducated people motivated mainly by political factors.
wrichcirw
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2/18/2014 8:15:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/17/2014 2:59:23 PM, NiqashMotawadi3 wrote:
This is not nuance but pure contradiction. On the one hand, you say that Islam does not cause suicide bombings...on the other hand, you fully admit that a "cultural evolution of Islam and a misunderstanding of Jihadism" result in suicide bombings. You also say directly in your OP that "I think that Islamic upbringing has more to do with suicide-bombing more than anything." This is a statement about causation.

Two points:

It's worth nothing that I do differentiate between Qur'anic Islam and cultural Islam, which seem like two different but related things. Hence, I blame Islamic cultures when I speak of cultural Islam. Qur'anic Islam, which is only contained in Islamic doctrines, seems mostly innocent of the way Islam evolved under the political conflicts and sectarian intolerance of the Islamic Caliphs and leaders, e.g Ali, Aisha, Umar, Uthman and what have you. This has little to do with the Qur'anic Islam that was supposedly revealed to the Prophet.

I believe I understand your point, in that I would draw a similar parallel with Christian philosophy and what actually constitutes Christianity in practice.

Two, I'm not arguing for causation, I'm just saying that Islamic households seem to have higher correlations when it comes to Islamic terrorism than a cultural separation, which I don't think is relevant nowadays. For example, Hezbollah soldiers are sometimes wealthy and educated and still ready to blow themselves up for their cause. It's a rather shallow assumption that suicide-bombers are only poor, uneducated people motivated mainly by political factors.

It is a general assumption, and I would be very surprised if it was wrong. Just because it is rather simplified does not make it incorrect. I sincerely doubt any more than a tiny minority of suicide-driven jihadists are wealthy and privileged.

There are plenty of soldiers that are also wealthy in most standing armies...but they too are only a tiny minority compared to the rest of any force. Those that are driven to suicidal tactics more than likely see such as the only option to achieve their goals, i.e. socio-political poverty resulting in a dearth of other viable options.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
rockwater
Posts: 273
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2/18/2014 10:21:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Suicide bombing as a terrorist tactic was pioneered by the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, a separatist group of ethnic Hindus in Sri Lanka. The LTTE were ethnically Hindu but their ideology was atheist socialism.