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Minimum Wage

Conservative101
Posts: 191
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2/16/2014 7:07:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Should minimum wage be lowered or raised in the U.S.? In this topic I will illustrate the pros and cons of a higher minimum wage and what my personal opinion is on it.

The current federal minimum wage is $7.25 per hour. Minimum wage differs by state in the U.S., with Washington being the highest at $9.32 and Georgia the lowest at $5.15.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

First view (Republican view):
Minimum wage should be lowered. Companies who pay their employees off of minimum wage will hire less employees because they cannot afford to pay them that much. Less employees, less jobs, economy goes down.

Second view (Democratic view):
Minimum wage should be raised. An employee who is making money from a job that pays minimum wage will make more by the hour, versus a lower pay rate at a lower minimum wage.

Here's the thing: Most companies pay more than minimum wage. 4.7% of hourly workers get payed at or below the federal minimum wage. Companies who pay their workers this much consist of fast food restaurants, Wal-Mart, Sears, Macy's, Target, Starbucks, and other companies. http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

So why should we worry about it? Last summer, thousands of fast-food workers across the nation went on strike, demanding that their wages be raised to $15 an hour. In President Obama's State of the Union speech this year, he said he would do everything he could to get the nation's federal minimum wage raised to $10.10. We can predict that some legal action appealing to the raise of federal minimal wage might occur within the next few years.

We will have to take a side, because this may end up on our voting ballots soon. Which side are you on? Will the raise of this help or hurt the U.S.?

My opinion: I don't think the government should worry about raising the federal minimum wage. That is what state distinctions are for. States should choose their own limit based on how many fast-food restaurants and other minimum wage paying companies they have. Some may say that raising it will help those who are being payed the minimal, but I think that if companies have to pay their workers more, then those job offers at all may not even exist. More people will get layed off and may be unable to find a job that at least pays the minimal. Thus, the unemployment rate will be higher. Sure, the value of the U.S. dollar is always decreasing and the minimum wage is bound to rise a little over time, but immediate and legal action taken on raising the wage to a rocket-high amount won't be a smart move for the government. If employees want to be payed more than $7.25 an hour, why don't they seek a higher paying job or get the education necessary to be hired for a higher paying job? Or why don't they move to a state that has a higher minimum wage? There are lots of options and job opportunities out there with employers who are seeking the skills of these workers. With that being said, I don't think going on strike and protesting in the streets is the best thing to do. After all, the time and energy for carrying out a protest could be well spent trying to find a nicer, better job.
When in doubt, start riots and scream racism
BigDave80
Posts: 105
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2/18/2014 3:40:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Pros of raising the minimum wage:

1.) Higher wages for some workers who would otherwise earn less than the minimum wage

Cons of raising the minimum wage:

2.) Reduced employment opportunities for some workers who would earn less than the minimum wage absent the minimum wage, particularly at the entry level

3.) Higher prices on consumer goods

Once you realize that most minimum wage workers are young and not primary earners, the cons clearly outweigh the pros. We should not raise the minimum wage.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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2/19/2014 8:06:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 3:40:31 PM, BigDave80 wrote:
Pros of raising the minimum wage:

1.) Higher wages for some workers who would otherwise earn less than the minimum wage


Cons of raising the minimum wage:

2.) Reduced employment opportunities for some workers who would earn less than the minimum wage absent the minimum wage, particularly at the entry level

3.) Higher prices on consumer goods


Once you realize that most minimum wage workers are young and not primary earners, the cons clearly outweigh the pros. We should not raise the minimum wage.

I haven't seen an updated breakdown from the BLS since 2011, so my info could be outdated, but if I recall correctly:
about 25% of min wage workers are less than 25 years old
about 33% work less than 35 hours/week
about 50% are in food industry

Also, the figures were about 3.2% of ALL workers.
The figure does not factor in other sources of income that would skew this figure and its pundits, namely second jobs and tips.
My work here is, finally, done.
progressivedem22
Posts: 1,304
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2/19/2014 1:34:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/18/2014 3:40:31 PM, BigDave80 wrote:

Cons of raising the minimum wage:

2.) Reduced employment opportunities for some workers who would earn less than the minimum wage absent the minimum wage, particularly at the entry level

Wrong: http://cbo.gov... -- and mind you, this comes from the CBO.

And here's another: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com...

And another: http://www.nwlc.org...

3.) Higher prices on consumer goods

Wrong: http://truth-out.org... -- chronicles studies showing that, even if a businessperson wanted to cover the entire cost of increasing the minimum wage by 10 percent, the markup in prices would be no more than 0.1 percent.

And if you don't believe me:

http://www.peri.umass.edu...



Once you realize that most minimum wage workers are young and not primary earners, the cons clearly outweigh the pros. We should not raise the minimum wage.

Wrong. http://www.epi.org... The caricature you've created, according to this study, accounted for about 12% of people on minimum wage in eight states as of January 2012 -- 80% were at least 20, and 78% worked at least 20 hours each week.

So, unfortunately, your arguments -- once again -- are counter-factual, ideological, and baseless. Welcome to libertarian island.
BigDave80
Posts: 105
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2/19/2014 6:16:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/19/2014 1:34:43 PM, progressivedem22 wrote:
At 2/18/2014 3:40:31 PM, BigDave80 wrote:

Cons of raising the minimum wage:

2.) Reduced employment opportunities for some workers who would earn less than the minimum wage absent the minimum wage, particularly at the entry level

Wrong: http://cbo.gov... -- and mind you, this comes from the CBO.

And here's another: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com...

And another: http://www.nwlc.org...

Directly from the CBO report that you just linked to:

"According to CBO"s central estimate, implementing the $10.10 option would reduce employment by roughly 500,000 workers in the second half of 2016, relative to what would happen under current law."

Page 9. That is literally confirming what I'm saying and contradicting what you are saying.

This is kind of embarrassing for you.


3.) Higher prices on consumer goods

Wrong: http://truth-out.org... -- chronicles studies showing that, even if a businessperson wanted to cover the entire cost of increasing the minimum wage by 10 percent, the markup in prices would be no more than 0.1 percent.

And if you don't believe me:

http://www.peri.umass.edu...

Standard economic analysis says MW decreases employment and increases prices. This is supported by evidence:

http://ftp.iza.org...





Once you realize that most minimum wage workers are young and not primary earners, the cons clearly outweigh the pros. We should not raise the minimum wage.

Wrong. http://www.epi.org... The caricature you've created, according to this study, accounted for about 12% of people on minimum wage in eight states as of January 2012 -- 80% were at least 20, and 78% worked at least 20 hours each week.

A full 37% of MW workers are teenagers living with their parents:

http://freebeacon.com...



So, unfortunately, your arguments -- once again -- are counter-factual, ideological, and baseless. Welcome to libertarian island.

Well, your arguments are contrary to economic logic, you cite studies that actually lend support to my argument, and make baseless assertions. After all this, you still seem to have this unjustified belief that your worldview is based on evidence when really the opposite is true. Oh well, Paul Krugman told you that progressive are right about everything and everyone else is stupid or evil. That's all that matters. Welcome to progressive island
progressivedem22
Posts: 1,304
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2/19/2014 6:39:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/19/2014 6:16:29 PM, BigDave80 wrote:
At 2/19/2014 1:34:43 PM, progressivedem22 wrote:
At 2/18/2014 3:40:31 PM, BigDave80 wrote:

Cons of raising the minimum wage:

2.) Reduced employment opportunities for some workers who would earn less than the minimum wage absent the minimum wage, particularly at the entry level

Wrong: http://cbo.gov... -- and mind you, this comes from the CBO.

And here's another: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com...

And another: http://www.nwlc.org...



Directly from the CBO report that you just linked to:

"According to CBO"s central estimate, implementing the $10.10 option would reduce employment by roughly 500,000 workers in the second half of 2016, relative to what would happen under current law."


Page 9. That is literally confirming what I'm saying and contradicting what you are saying.

This is kind of embarrassing for you.

That's embarrassing for me? How unbelievably condescending, especially when what you're saying, once again, is devoid of truth.

Here's why: a modest reduction in unemployment that raises people out of poverty and ultimately offsets itself with higher demand is a reasonable sacrifice. The problem is, you fail to accept the aftermath, and stick to your false, anti-factual narrative that any increase in minimum wage is ipso facto wrong.



3.) Higher prices on consumer goods

Wrong: http://truth-out.org... -- chronicles studies showing that, even if a businessperson wanted to cover the entire cost of increasing the minimum wage by 10 percent, the markup in prices would be no more than 0.1 percent.

And if you don't believe me:

http://www.peri.umass.edu...


Standard economic analysis says MW decreases employment and increases prices. This is supported by evidence:

http://ftp.iza.org...

But it doesn't, and the CBO study demonstrates this -- even conservative economists admit that any decline in employment is negligible, and links between inflation and the minimum wage are negligible. Moreover, considering that we could actually use some inflation right now, even that wouldn't be an issue.







Once you realize that most minimum wage workers are young and not primary earners, the cons clearly outweigh the pros. We should not raise the minimum wage.

Wrong. http://www.epi.org... The caricature you've created, according to this study, accounted for about 12% of people on minimum wage in eight states as of January 2012 -- 80% were at least 20, and 78% worked at least 20 hours each week.


A full 37% of MW workers are teenagers living with their parents:

http://freebeacon.com...

That's a conservative paper, and thus not the least bit credible.

But even if we that figure, it still undermines your narrative. You said most minimum wage workers are young. Even THAT study disproves your thesis. Now THAT is embarrassing.






So, unfortunately, your arguments -- once again -- are counter-factual, ideological, and baseless. Welcome to libertarian island.



Well, your arguments are contrary to economic logic, you cite studies that actually lend support to my argument, and make baseless assertions. After all this, you still seem to have this unjustified belief that your worldview is based on evidence when really the opposite is true. Oh well, Paul Krugman told you that progressive are right about everything and everyone else is stupid or evil. That's all that matters. Welcome to progressive island

Contrary to economic logic? Well, considering that you don't understand economic logic and the basis for your argument is "markets work wonderfully!" I wouldn't say you're one to talk about this, or to attack someone else.

No, the studies support my arguments, actually, while your biased source contradicts your own.

It's funny that you're attacking Dr. Krugman when I doubt you could hold a candle to him. I doubt anyone in your libertarian cult could point to one time over the last, say, decade when Krugman has been wrong. Unfortunately for you, there are PLENTY of times when your guys have been wrong, so much so that you made a topic saying, "Well, I guess the libertarians were wrong on inflation...." Please, leave economics to the adults, and stop taking your cues from the Koch brothers.
ironmaiden
Posts: 456
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2/19/2014 8:38:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/16/2014 7:07:42 PM, Conservative101 wrote:
Should minimum wage be lowered or raised in the U.S.?

Well, would you rather pay a dollar for a cheap McDonald's cheeseburger? Or would you rather pay ten?
"I know what you're thinking. 'Did he fire six shots or only five?' Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kinda lost track myself. But being that his is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and will blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question. 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?"
BigDave80
Posts: 105
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2/19/2014 10:19:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/19/2014 6:39:01 PM, progressivedem22 wrote:
At 2/19/2014 6:16:29 PM, BigDave80 wrote:
At 2/19/2014 1:34:43 PM, progressivedem22 wrote:
At 2/18/2014 3:40:31 PM, BigDave80 wrote:

Cons of raising the minimum wage:

2.) Reduced employment opportunities for some workers who would earn less than the minimum wage absent the minimum wage, particularly at the entry level

Wrong: http://cbo.gov... -- and mind you, this comes from the CBO.

And here's another: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com...

And another: http://www.nwlc.org...



Directly from the CBO report that you just linked to:

"According to CBO"s central estimate, implementing the $10.10 option would reduce employment by roughly 500,000 workers in the second half of 2016, relative to what would happen under current law."


Page 9. That is literally confirming what I'm saying and contradicting what you are saying.

This is kind of embarrassing for you.

That's embarrassing for me? How unbelievably condescending, especially when what you're saying, once again, is devoid of truth.

Here's why: a modest reduction in unemployment that raises people out of poverty and ultimately offsets itself with higher demand is a reasonable sacrifice. The problem is, you fail to accept the aftermath, and stick to your false, anti-factual narrative that any increase in minimum wage is ipso facto wrong.

What is embarrassing is that you cited a study that supported my side (MW lowers employment) and claimed it said the opposite. Here's an article about the report:

http://www.usnews.com...

You would be best served to admit you made a mistake and move on.




3.) Higher prices on consumer goods

Wrong: http://truth-out.org... -- chronicles studies showing that, even if a businessperson wanted to cover the entire cost of increasing the minimum wage by 10 percent, the markup in prices would be no more than 0.1 percent.

And if you don't believe me:

http://www.peri.umass.edu...


Standard economic analysis says MW decreases employment and increases prices. This is supported by evidence:

http://ftp.iza.org...

But it doesn't, and the CBO study demonstrates this -- even conservative economists admit that any decline in employment is negligible, and links between inflation and the minimum wage are negligible. Moreover, considering that we could actually use some inflation right now, even that wouldn't be an issue.

Even conservative economists agree with you?

I'm calling BS here. Please provide evidence for claims like this because I am skeptical to say the least.

You are correct that a bit more inflation wouldn't be the worst thing, but the kind of inflation caused by higher labor costs is different from higher inflation due to increased aggregate demand.

The Fed can boost AD by loosening policy (and that is good). The minimum wage just increases labor costs and thus unemployment. It's not the kind of inflation we need.








Once you realize that most minimum wage workers are young and not primary earners, the cons clearly outweigh the pros. We should not raise the minimum wage.

Wrong. http://www.epi.org... The caricature you've created, according to this study, accounted for about 12% of people on minimum wage in eight states as of January 2012 -- 80% were at least 20, and 78% worked at least 20 hours each week.


A full 37% of MW workers are teenagers living with their parents:

http://freebeacon.com...

That's a conservative paper, and thus not the least bit credible.

But even if we that figure, it still undermines your narrative. You said most minimum wage workers are young. Even THAT study disproves your thesis. Now THAT is embarrassing.

Look, you've cited a ton of liberal papers. Just saying "that's a conservative paper" doesn't actually deal with the argument. If anything, it shows that you don't have much of a response.







So, unfortunately, your arguments -- once again -- are counter-factual, ideological, and baseless. Welcome to libertarian island.



Well, your arguments are contrary to economic logic, you cite studies that actually lend support to my argument, and make baseless assertions. After all this, you still seem to have this unjustified belief that your worldview is based on evidence when really the opposite is true. Oh well, Paul Krugman told you that progressive are right about everything and everyone else is stupid or evil. That's all that matters. Welcome to progressive island

Contrary to economic logic? Well, considering that you don't understand economic logic and the basis for your argument is "markets work wonderfully!" I wouldn't say you're one to talk about this, or to attack someone else.

No, the studies support my arguments, actually, while your biased source contradicts your own.

It's funny that you're attacking Dr. Krugman when I doubt you could hold a candle to him. I doubt anyone in your libertarian cult could point to one time over the last, say, decade when Krugman has been wrong. Unfortunately for you, there are PLENTY of times when your guys have been wrong, so much so that you made a topic saying, "Well, I guess the libertarians were wrong on inflation...." Please, leave economics to the adults, and stop taking your cues from the Koch brothers.

Krugman wrong in the last decade?

Try the last month, when Krugman's prediction that fiscal austerity would cause reductions in growth failed to come true:

http://econlog.econlib.org...

Oh, and then there was the time in 2009 where he accused Mankiw of being evil because he dared question the administrations growth forecasts. It turns out Mankiw was right and Krugman was wrong:

http://www.themoneyillusion.com...

So, yes, that evil Bush economist beat Krugman in terms of predictions easily.

Not only is Krugman wrong occasionally, he's wrong quite systematically.

Yes, libertarians were wrong on inflation. I admitted that. But, Krugman hasn't admitted to being wrong on anything he has been wrong on recently. Sure, he'll admit he was wrong on some minor stuff in the 1990s. But, he needs to come to terms with the fact that his beloved keynesian model has done poorly in the past year.

And, ya, bringing up the Koch brothers is really original...
Topkek
Posts: 8
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2/20/2014 12:28:09 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/19/2014 1:34:43 PM, progressivedem22 wrote:
At 2/18/2014 3:40:31 PM, BigDave80 wrote:

Cons of raising the minimum wage:

2.) Reduced employment opportunities for some workers who would earn less than the minimum wage absent the minimum wage, particularly at the entry level
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com...

And another: http://www.nwlc.org...

The latter two sources that BigDave didn't reply two are also very inaccurate. They both rely on two fundamentally flawed papers: the '92 Card and Krueger study and the more recent Dube, Lester and Reich study. The former should never, ever be referred to for argumentative purposes; only two states were looked at, the raise of the minimum wage was less than $1, and most importantly, the minimum wage was simply raised closer to the equilibrium, which had no negative effect on the labour market but nonetheless stymied job growth. The latter actually admits that minimum wage hikes would stifle growth in unskilled workers employment, and also do not account for the time-lag in minimum wage effects. Both also used data exclusively during economic booms, and look at only marginal increases in the minimum wage.
Conservative101
Posts: 191
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2/22/2014 2:29:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Correction on my earlier post. Instead of 4.7% of workers being payed at or below minimum wage, 2.3% are.

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics,

"In 2013, 2.3 percent of all U.S. employees worked at or below the minimum wage.

Of those working at or below minimum wage, 64 percent were under 30, and over half were under 25.

Less than 1 percent of all U.S. employees earned minimum wage or less and were 30 or older.

The majority (63 percent) of those receiving minimum wage or less worked in the food or retail industries.

The food and retail industries also experienced higher than average unemployment rates, at 9.3 percent and 8.4 percent respectively."

Source: http://www.ijreview.com...
When in doubt, start riots and scream racism