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Border Fence ?

wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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1/21/2010 6:51:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Use critical thinking and come up with your positions and why?

Lets learn and share.

Critical Thinking: A collection of skills we use everyday that re necessary for our intellectual and personal development.

Logic: the study of the methods and principals used to distinguish correct or good arguments from poor arguments.

(They go hand in hand)

LETS NOT USE,

Opinion: A belief based solely on personal feelings rather than on reason and facts

*Remember that critically thinking means that we are willing to work towards overcoming personal prejudice and biases, in other words open-minded skepticism.*
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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1/21/2010 6:54:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Inefficient. But if we do, we might as well put one to the north as well. Stupid Oklahomians trying to kill our freedom.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
Cherymenthol
Posts: 158
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1/21/2010 6:55:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
A Border Fence would be a symbolic "crap" on all the U.S. stands for.

This nation was built on freedom and to erect an object, the sole intention of which is to bar others from entering, would be directly opposite to what this nations stands for...

Is that what you mean?
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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1/21/2010 7:09:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
There are many reasons not to have a border fence:

-It is expensive.
-It is ineffective (tunneling and climbing come to mind).
-It sends the wrong message (we are a nation of immigrants).

There should just be a more efficient immigration system that would allow people to come over legally without the hassle. A lot of the immigration requirements (marriage, etc) are really meaningless.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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1/21/2010 7:11:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/21/2010 7:09:51 PM, wjmelements wrote:
There are many reasons not to have a border fence:

-It is expensive.
-It is ineffective (tunneling and climbing come to mind).
-It sends the wrong message (we are a nation of immigrants).

There should just be a more efficient immigration system that would allow people to come over legally without the hassle. A lot of the immigration requirements (marriage, etc) are really meaningless.

I hate agreeing with Texans so much. It sends weird chills down my spine.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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1/21/2010 7:14:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/21/2010 7:09:51 PM, wjmelements wrote:
-It is expensive.

$50 billion isn't that expensive compared to the amount we spend on immigration, homeland security, and spending in general.

-It is ineffective (tunneling and climbing come to mind).

Yeah, wjm, I think engineers would anticipate that and design something to safeguard against tunneling and climbing.

-It sends the wrong message (we are a nation of immigrants).

Apply for immigration then. The threat of terrorists crossing the border is tremendous, not to mention the costs of maintaining all the illegals-- jail, subsidies, etc.

There should just be a more efficient immigration system that would allow people to come over legally without the hassle. A lot of the immigration requirements (marriage, etc) are really meaningless.

Ehh, overpopulation isn't optimal, especially at a time when one in ten Americans don't have jobs.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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1/21/2010 7:22:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/21/2010 7:14:17 PM, Nags wrote:
At 1/21/2010 7:09:51 PM, wjmelements wrote:
-It is expensive.

$50 billion isn't that expensive compared to the amount we spend on immigration, homeland security, and spending in general.

You're assuming said fence would be effective. This only leads to the next point.

-It is ineffective (tunneling and climbing come to mind).

Yeah, wjm, I think engineers would anticipate that and design something to safeguard against tunneling and climbing.

What do you propose? We make it thirty feet tall, ten feet deep and thirty into the ground, out of concrete?

Even then, there are roads which we need for trade with Mexico and Canada that could not be blocked. The Border Fence would be no permanent solution. Access points would have to be regulated in the same way that they are now and we'd have a massive wall we'd have to maintain.

-It sends the wrong message (we are a nation of immigrants).

Apply for immigration then. The threat of terrorists crossing the border is tremendous,

Terrorists can come into the country as tourists, make napalm out of gasoline and styrofoam, and do whatever they please. A border fence isn't going to stop that.

not to mention the costs of maintaining all the illegals-- jail, subsidies, etc.

Why maintain the (assuming non-criminal) illegals? Why subsidize them? Why put them in jail?

There should just be a more efficient immigration system that would allow people to come over legally without the hassle. A lot of the immigration requirements (marriage, etc) are really meaningless.

Ehh, overpopulation isn't optimal, especially at a time when one in ten Americans don't have jobs.

You support border security with the goal of controlling population size? That's a debate within itself.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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1/21/2010 7:31:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/21/2010 7:22:34 PM, wjmelements wrote:
You're assuming said fence would be effective. This only leads to the next point.

...

What do you propose? We make it thirty feet tall, ten feet deep and thirty into the ground, out of concrete?

Sure.

Even then, there are roads which we need for trade with Mexico and Canada that could not be blocked. The Border Fence would be no permanent solution. Access points would have to be regulated in the same way that they are now and we'd have a massive wall we'd have to maintain.

The roads used for trade are already subject to border patrol authority, they have posts and checkpoints on every road.

Terrorists can come into the country as tourists, make napalm out of gasoline and styrofoam, and do whatever they please. A border fence isn't going to stop that.

A border fence would hinder the threat. And no, terrorists can't come into the country as tourists if the government is doing their job.

Why maintain the (assuming non-criminal) illegals? Why subsidize them? Why put them in jail?

Ask the government. We're assuming the status quo exists, and the status quo does exist, so we shall be arguing as if the status quo will continue to exist.

You support border security with the goal of controlling population size? That's a debate within itself.

Not a main goal, but it's a premise.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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1/21/2010 7:41:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/21/2010 7:31:41 PM, Nags wrote:
And no, terrorists can't come into the country as tourists if the government is doing their job.

All the airport security really does is check for weapons and such. That won't stop what I described.

Why maintain the (assuming non-criminal) illegals? Why subsidize them? Why put them in jail?

Ask the government. We're assuming the status quo exists, and the status quo does exist, so we shall be arguing as if the status quo will continue to exist.

I'm talking about what would be ideal. Status quo can burn in hell. What is your response to my questions?

You support border security with the goal of controlling population size? That's a debate within itself.

Not a main goal, but it's a premise.

The money wasted on immigration control is more than the loss from the boo boo of another twenty million workers. The higher the population density, the better the division of labor. There are more business opportunities. Labor becomes temporarily cheaper, improving the ability of entrepreneurs to hire. The market corrects itself after the first wave and is fine after it.

With more unskilled labor, we can also expect to become a more self-sufficient country.

A few reasons to let people move where they wish:
-Allows people to govern their own lives.
-Allows people to maximize utility.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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1/21/2010 7:55:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/21/2010 7:41:00 PM, wjmelements wrote:
All the airport security really does is check for weapons and such. That won't stop what I described.

There's a terror watch list. I don't think anyone is worried about what you described anyway. And airport security does much more than check weapons.

I'm talking about what would be ideal. Status quo can burn in hell. What is your response to my questions?

I was assuming we were talking about here and now, since if we were Congressman, that's what we would do. Regardless, I am against subsidizing them and what-not. Many Mexicans end up in jail for non-immigrant related issues, that's what I meant by jail costs.

With more unskilled labor, we can also expect to become a more self-sufficient country.

It's cheaper and more efficient to go directly to Southeast Asia or Central America for unskilled labor.

A few reasons to let people move where they wish:
-Allows people to govern their own lives.
-Allows people to maximize utility.

Those are not reasons to allow immigration, it's the definition of immigration.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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1/21/2010 8:05:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/21/2010 7:55:03 PM, Nags wrote:
At 1/21/2010 7:41:00 PM, wjmelements wrote:
All the airport security really does is check for weapons and such. That won't stop what I described.

There's a terror watch list. I don't think anyone is worried about what you described anyway. And airport security does much more than check weapons.

The terror watch list only includes suspects. Someone could be converted under the radar and come hear for "vacation".

I'm talking about what would be ideal. Status quo can burn in hell. What is your response to my questions?

I was assuming we were talking about here and now, since if we were Congressman, that's what we would do. Regardless, I am against subsidizing them and what-not. Many Mexicans end up in jail for non-immigrant related issues, that's what I meant by jail costs.

Okay. That's entirely different. Still, I'd find it cheaper to stop enforcing illegal immigration laws (at least in the same way) or to target the cause (which happens to be American wealth and government inefficiency; the first must stay, but the second can go), than to keep the current expensive system.

With more unskilled labor, we can also expect to become a more self-sufficient country.

It's cheaper and more efficient to go directly to Southeast Asia or Central America for unskilled labor.
Then said businesses would not occur and other businesses would take their place. However, the wage levels for unskilled labor can be expected to drop along with the price of food, etc, and once you factor in the cost of transportation, the domestic industries would be better off.
Still, self-sufficiency is often inefficiency and this is not a priority.
A few reasons to let people move where they wish:
-Allows people to govern their own lives.
-Allows people to maximize utility.

Those are not reasons to allow immigration, it's the definition of immigration.

They are both.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
banker
Posts: 1,370
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1/21/2010 8:56:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I am not able to see how a fence on our border could be. Anything more then that.!! Its a border and we should not rationalize why we need it..! Its just not rational to debate why you sleep with closed doors.!
However what its realistic to debate is if imigration is. Problem .! Are imigrants cuasing problems..? The answer is no immigrans work harder then us ..! Immigrents are a majority small buisiness owners...!
Before your geting tempted to turn the coin to respond with the other side of the story,let me preemtivly explain why despite imigrations benefits we expiriance problems...!

We created enviromantel rules for example and other fine and regulations that makes it unreasonable for immigrants to come here to start a comaney...! We have a high taxing system that is rewarding imigrants to send their income to their own country..!
Now if we end the burdon from the companies and we stop regulating them out we will be able to get jobs for them and we will get imigrants who look for the jobs...!
if we turn our nation into capitalisem again imigrans will come for opportunity not for free handouts
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable