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Women's rights? Downfall of USA?

comoncents
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1/23/2010 2:47:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Does anyone still believe in the old way of doing things?

The women stay home and care for the child and tend to the house.
Where did we go wrong with this tradition?

I would have to say it was the great depression. When women had to go out and work. (Many people have different theories).

What ever happened to the women staying home and tending to the cooking, cleaning and kids?

Is this idea so wrong?

Since the beginning of time, history shows us that this was going on.
Lets face it, are women as strong as men?
Does a women's innate motherly mentality make them less able to make decisions a man can make?
Did giving women a voice tear this country down?
(There is a school of thought that believes by giving women a voice, we have forced this country to spiral into a liberal/socialistic mentality. The government has to be fair and take care of everyone with more social programs. They believe that women can not help but to feel sorry for the child that can not get healthcare, so they push to make it universal.)

What happened to tradition?
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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1/23/2010 3:33:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/23/2010 2:47:57 AM, comoncents wrote:
Does anyone still believe in the old way of doing things?

No.


The women stay home and care for the child and tend to the house.
Where did we go wrong with this tradition?

When we found out women could do alot of things as good as men, and the fact during the Industrial revolution employers paid women less than men. Also, free education means some women are better than some men at some jobs.


I would have to say it was the great depression. When women had to go out and work. (Many people have different theories).

Basically any industrial climate that lacks men:

- Industrial revolution
- World War 1
- Great depression
- Cold War (Huge build up of military meaning more women needed)


What ever happened to the women staying home and tending to the cooking, cleaning and kids?

It change because it was discriminatory unless the woman opted to do so.


Is this idea so wrong?

Yes. Women aren't equal to men in every aspect, but they should be allowed try and do what men can.


Since the beginning of time, history shows us that this was going on.
Lets face it, are women as strong as men?

This one would be http://www.crossfit.com...

Does a women's innate motherly mentality make them less able to make decisions a man can make?

No. The fact they can multi-task (I doubt this is exclusive to women, but I'd say they are inherently better at it)

Did giving women a voice tear this country down?

No.

(There is a school of thought that believes by giving women a voice, we have forced this country to spiral into a liberal/socialistic mentality. The government has to be fair and take care of everyone with more social programs. They believe that women can not help but to feel sorry for the child that can not get healthcare, so they push to make it universal.)

"OMFG PRESS THE COMMUNISM BUTTON THEY'RE GIVING EQUALITY!!!!!!1111!!!!!"

Not all women are socialists. See Ann Coulter. To say women are inferior, that their mother mentality means they push for Socialism is just stupid. What Misogynist conservative propaganda have you been smoking comon?



What happened to tradition?

It collapsed because it was stupid.

Comon, you seemed tied up in the idea of tradition. Trust me, if they kept their tradition, you wouldn't be in this country. Slaves would still be in America. Progress is normally good for a country.

The constitution of America was written nearly 250 years ago. Why every last word could be relevant in a world the writers couldn't imagine is beyond me.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
mattrodstrom
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1/23/2010 6:14:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/23/2010 3:33:40 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

Yes. Women aren't equal to men in every aspect, but they should be allowed try and do what men can.

I think this is the key here.

I wouldn't say that men and women are the same, or are necessarily as good at doing certain things as are each other.

BUT I wouldn't restrict their liberty to pursue that which they will.

If a woman wants to go be an engineer, good for her.

And if a guy wants to cook for his family and pay some attention to his kids (lol, not that I'm saying most don't), good for him.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
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Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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1/23/2010 6:21:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Are you f*cking kidding me, comon?

If a woman wants to be in the traditional role of caregiver and housemaid, then let her - no one will stop her, or criticise her, and those that do are idiots. Some people get off on doing that stuff, men included.

But you, the ever-prevalent "the Constitution is sacred!" guy, are questiong the rights women have been granted so they're able to actually make a choice of whether or not they want to be caregivers?

The situation before was that women didn't have a choice. They didn't even have a vote. They were simply expected to pop out babies and clean the house. Domestic abuse wasn't seen as a crime, for God's sake. And you think that progressing from the point where they had no choice, to where they do, and they're actually considered equal and given rights, has ruined the United States? If anything, its put the US one step closer to fulfilling its everlasting goal of "free."

For shame, cmon, for shame. I hope your wife smacks some sensibility into you one day, because its clear you don't have it yet.
comoncents
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1/23/2010 7:00:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/23/2010 6:21:06 AM, Volkov wrote:
Are you f*cking kidding me, comon?

If a woman wants to be in the traditional role of caregiver and housemaid, then let her - no one will stop her, or criticise her, and those that do are idiots. Some people get off on doing that stuff, men included.

But you, the ever-prevalent "the Constitution is sacred!" guy, are questiong the rights women have been granted so they're able to actually make a choice of whether or not they want to be caregivers?

The situation before was that women didn't have a choice. They didn't even have a vote. They were simply expected to pop out babies and clean the house. Domestic abuse wasn't seen as a crime, for God's sake. And you think that progressing from the point where they had no choice, to where they do, and they're actually considered equal and given rights, has ruined the United States? If anything, its put the US one step closer to fulfilling its everlasting goal of "free."

For shame, cmon, for shame. I hope your wife smacks some sensibility into you one day, because its clear you don't have it yet.

NoNoNo, this is not what i believed. It was a class discussion in one of my political science classes. I just wanted to see what you guys thought.
Crazy!
Puck
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1/23/2010 8:49:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/23/2010 7:00:28 AM, comoncents wrote:

NoNoNo, this is not what i believed. It was a class discussion in one of my political science classes. I just wanted to see what you guys thought.
Crazy!

Uhuh. >.>
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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1/23/2010 10:03:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/23/2010 2:47:57 AM, comoncents wrote:

The women stay home and care for the child and tend to the house.
Where did we go wrong with this tradition?

As Volkov said, for a long time women were not given the right to vote and as such had no say in political affairs (which dictate our livelihoods). I think it's obvious why that's wrong. Anyway after Suffrage, women were victims of a false belief system that required them to find identity and meaning in their life through their husbands and children. Such a system causes women to completely lose their identity. Additionally, post WWII there were economic and technological advancements that were supposed to make women's housework easier, but subsequently devalued their work.

Also I think Panda mentioned the obvious reality that women had to step out of the house during WWII while men were off at war to take over their jobs so that the country would continue to run smoothly with many of the men gone. As a result, women finally got a taste of freedom: seeing what it was like to work and make your own money, and dictate your own life instead of relying on your husband. Comon - would YOU want to rely on your wife for money? Would YOU want to stay home all day doing house work and not get paid for it or have any opportunities outside of the home? What about if your wife started beating you - would you leave? What would you do? How would you live? How would you get a job if the workplace was for women only?

As you can see, there are various reasons why women being expected to stay at home is wrong. As Volkov said, women (and men) are free to do as they please and do what they think is best for both themselves and their family. However society expects reinforcement. If a woman conforms to her assigned gender role, we expect women of future generations to do the same. This is proven by your statement "we have seen this since the beginning of time."

Yes, men on average are physically stronger than women - but so what? Does physical strength have relevance to being a doctor, lawyer, salesman, banker, broker or author? Nope. Also, your question about whether or not a woman's tendency to be "motherly" affects her abilities to make decisions. First of all, you're operating on the basis that all women feel motherly, and not all do. Second, it's true that women value different priorities -- that's why a woman shouldn't have to vote the way her husband does (as was expected in the past).

An absence of women in government means a different government. The policies are different. History shows us that when women are in office, certain issues are discussed more than when women are not in office. I know you're aware of this because you seem to think that women are responsible for social programs... even though liberalism existed far before suffrage and women's direct political involvement, and the fact that the great majority of democratic politicians have been men. Sure, blame the women for everything that you consider wrong. That's very mature (I know it's not your view directly but I'm just sayin'... ). With women involved in politics, it strengthened democracy and extended the boundaries of social justice.

What happened to tradition, you ask? Well, as I've said in another recent thread, men want to resort back to tradition because they feel threatened by women's prowess. With women in the workforce, it makes it harder for them to succeed because they have more competition. As such, they keep trying to reinforce benevolent sexism; that's when women want to be protected and feel like a lady, so they expect and like sexism. Very clever, guyz!

You know, you seem to take an interest in politics and I know that you're busy with school, but I think it would be really good for you to see the other side for a change if you read a book called The Feminine Mystique by Betty Friedan (it's a classic). She talks about various feminist issues; I think exposure to another side can really help you with your studies and personal life (opinions).
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Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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1/23/2010 11:36:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
My mother works as a VP of Finance and spends 70 hours a week making her paycheck. My dad retired at the age of 50 when my mom got promoted to that position. He stays home all day and does the cooking and cleaning and all housework (which only takes him a few hours a day, but we only had 2 kids and 1 was handicapped, so he didn't make much of a mess) and he loved it (and still does 10 years later). He actually said that if things go bad and mom loses her job, that I'd have to go get a job before he would (when I was 15, thanks dad). He loves it!

Now my wife wants me to make enough money so that she doesn't have to work, because she enjoys cleaning and taking on a "traditional" role, and only work part time and use that money for "fun" money instead of for bills.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ore_Ele
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1/23/2010 11:51:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/23/2010 11:45:24 AM, comoncents wrote:
At 1/23/2010 11:36:21 AM, OreEle wrote:
2 kids and 1 was handicapped


How so?

If you don't mind?

Near drowning accident that caused brain damage at the age of 3 (I was 2 1/2 weeks old). He can't walk or talk and has no conscious control of his muscles.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Republican95
Posts: 111
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1/26/2010 3:17:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I would actually prefer to live in a world where a child could expect to come home to at least one of his or her parents, be it their mother or father.

I would like for my wife to be a houswife and tend to the home while I bring home the bacon.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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1/26/2010 3:39:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/26/2010 3:17:00 PM, Republican95 wrote:
I would like for my wife to be a houswife and tend to the home while I bring home the bacon.

Sure, that might be your preference, but are you going to force her? If yes, then you have a problem with women's rights; if no, then you're OK by most standards.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
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1/26/2010 4:15:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/26/2010 3:17:00 PM, Republican95 wrote:
I would actually prefer to live in a world where a child could expect to come home to at least one of his or her parents, be it their mother or father.

I would like for my wife to be a houswife and tend to the home while I bring home the bacon.

Unfortunately, many couples don't have the choice and women have to work whether they want to or not.

Here in the UK (and I know it is similar situation in many parts of the US), the average wage is £25k and the average house price is £250k so the average man on his own cannot afford to pay the mortgage.
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Ore_Ele
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1/26/2010 4:43:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/26/2010 4:15:49 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 1/26/2010 3:17:00 PM, Republican95 wrote:
I would actually prefer to live in a world where a child could expect to come home to at least one of his or her parents, be it their mother or father.

I would like for my wife to be a houswife and tend to the home while I bring home the bacon.

Unfortunately, many couples don't have the choice and women have to work whether they want to or not.

Here in the UK (and I know it is similar situation in many parts of the US), the average wage is £25k and the average house price is £250k so the average man on his own cannot afford to pay the mortgage.

One, could possibly say this (that both people have to work in order to pay their bills) is traced back to the feminist movement in the 60's and 70's. When women starting getting jobs, household incomes increased. This means that families have more spending money, and so value an individual dollar less. Companies can then justify charging far more for products. That then makes the cost of living go up and those people that try to live on a single income suffer.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
kelly224
Posts: 952
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1/27/2010 9:05:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/23/2010 2:47:57 AM, comoncents wrote:
Does anyone still believe in the old way of doing things? Yes, but times change.

The women stay home and care for the child and tend to the house.
Where did we go wrong with this tradition? It disappeared when women started standing up for themselves, and stop wanting to assume those roles.

I would have to say it was the great depression. When women had to go out and work. (Many people have different theories).

What ever happened to the women staying home and tending to the cooking, cleaning and kids? It changed around the Great Depression, as the cost of living goes up women had to come outside of home to make ends meet.

Is this idea so wrong?


Since the beginning of time, history shows us that this was going on.
Lets face it, are women as strong as men?
Does a women's innate motherly mentality make them less able to make decisions a man can make? Women are a man's perfect match The things that men afall short in, women compensate, and vice versa.
Did giving women a voice tear this country down? Insecure men tore this country down.
(There is a school of thought that believes by giving women a voice, we have forced this country to spiral into a liberal/socialistic mentality. The government has to be fair and take care of everyone with more social programs. They believe that women can not help but to feel sorry for the child that can not get healthcare, so they push to make it universal.) What's wrong with having compassion for your fellow man?..It's destructive thinking like this, this male testosterone fascination. Some men are so threatened by women. If you are sure of your manhood, than you would not be bothered. Seems to me that the overreacting male dominated country we live in needs some finesse.


What happened to tradition? It evolved.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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1/27/2010 9:20:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/26/2010 4:15:49 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 1/26/2010 3:17:00 PM, Republican95 wrote:
I would actually prefer to live in a world where a child could expect to come home to at least one of his or her parents, be it their mother or father.

I would like for my wife to be a houswife and tend to the home while I bring home the bacon.

Unfortunately, many couples don't have the choice and women have to work whether they want to or not.

Here in the UK (and I know it is similar situation in many parts of the US), the average wage is £25k and the average house price is £250k so the average man on his own cannot afford to pay the mortgage.

Exactly. It's either both people work or the bills don't get paid. So conservatives, next time you whine about wanting the women in the home try paying all the bills yourself, especially with a minimum wage job.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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1/27/2010 9:24:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 9:20:59 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 1/26/2010 4:15:49 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 1/26/2010 3:17:00 PM, Republican95 wrote:
I would actually prefer to live in a world where a child could expect to come home to at least one of his or her parents, be it their mother or father.

I would like for my wife to be a houswife and tend to the home while I bring home the bacon.

Unfortunately, many couples don't have the choice and women have to work whether they want to or not.

Here in the UK (and I know it is similar situation in many parts of the US), the average wage is £25k and the average house price is £250k so the average man on his own cannot afford to pay the mortgage.

Exactly. It's either both people work or the bills don't get paid. So conservatives, next time you whine about wanting the women in the home try paying all the bills yourself, especially with a minimum wage job.

Wooh, woohw.

Calm down.
You seem heated?
InsertNameHere
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1/27/2010 9:27:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 9:24:57 AM, comoncents wrote:
At 1/27/2010 9:20:59 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 1/26/2010 4:15:49 PM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 1/26/2010 3:17:00 PM, Republican95 wrote:
I would actually prefer to live in a world where a child could expect to come home to at least one of his or her parents, be it their mother or father.

I would like for my wife to be a houswife and tend to the home while I bring home the bacon.

Unfortunately, many couples don't have the choice and women have to work whether they want to or not.

Here in the UK (and I know it is similar situation in many parts of the US), the average wage is £25k and the average house price is £250k so the average man on his own cannot afford to pay the mortgage.

Exactly. It's either both people work or the bills don't get paid. So conservatives, next time you whine about wanting the women in the home try paying all the bills yourself, especially with a minimum wage job.

Wooh, woohw.

Calm down.
You seem heated?

Sorry. I just get slightly annoyed when people even suggest confining women to the home. Must be my feminist side speaking. :)
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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1/27/2010 11:14:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/26/2010 4:43:55 PM, OreEle wrote:

One, could possibly say this (that both people have to work in order to pay their bills) is traced back to the feminist movement in the 60's and 70's. When women starting getting jobs, household incomes increased. This means that families have more spending money, and so value an individual dollar less. Companies can then justify charging far more for products. That then makes the cost of living go up and those people that try to live on a single income suffer.

Well, one could easily say that the reason women went to work in the first place was to help pay their bills and to be able to afford a different kind of lifestyle. For instance, back then most families had only 1 car but today most homes have at least 2. The same applies to luxury items such as television sets. Companies can charge less money and still make a decent sized profit (with the difference being that more people get to enjoy their goods) so don't blame feminism for inflation lol. Blame inflation on (a) greed and (b) the government printing more money then it has.
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kelly224
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1/27/2010 12:44:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/26/2010 3:17:00 PM, Republican95 wrote:
I would actually prefer to live in a world where a child could expect to come home to at least one of his or her parents, be it their mother or father.

I would like for my wife to be a houswife and tend to the home while I bring home the bacon.

And what about what she wants? Insecure men want a robot, not a human being who exercises THEIR free will.
Ragnar_Rahl
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1/27/2010 2:03:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 12:44:09 PM, kelly224 wrote:
At 1/26/2010 3:17:00 PM, Republican95 wrote:
I would actually prefer to live in a world where a child could expect to come home to at least one of his or her parents, be it their mother or father.

I would like for my wife to be a houswife and tend to the home while I bring home the bacon.

And what about what she wants? Insecure men want a robot, not a human being who exercises THEIR free will.
They exercise their free will by choosing whether to marry Republican95?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
philosphical
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1/27/2010 2:15:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/23/2010 2:47:57 AM, comoncents wrote:
Does anyone still believe in the old way of doing things?

I kind of do. I think that they should assume their duties as women and care for things around the house when the male works.

Is this idea so wrong?

I don't think it is. I think woman have gone off on a tangent with their rights and kind of assumed they can just do whatever they want because they have them. Obviously that doesn't work. Women now-a-days are generally screwed up in their way of thinking, because society has changed in a way where they think its okay for them to cheat on husbands, and do less around the house, and get fast food for the family rather than basic old cooking.

But I see what you are talking about.
Your mouths writing checks that your @ss can't cash!
Puck
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1/27/2010 2:27:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 2:15:01 PM, philosphical wrote:
I don't think it is. I think woman have gone off on a tangent with their rights and kind of assumed they can just do whatever they want because they have them.

That's the general idea of rights, yes. :P

Obviously that doesn't work. Women now-a-days are generally screwed up in their way of thinking, because society has changed in a way where they think its okay for them to cheat on husbands.

Where before, men cheating on their wives was ok? And now it's ok too? Rights = cheating? Or individuals cheat? Do women with rights not cheat? Who is this society? It's an ambiguous collective fallacy.

and do less around the house, and get fast food for the family rather than basic old cooking.

See the issue is that it isn't intrinsic in a person's sex as to what they should or should not do with their life. A female with poor cooking skills, lacks cooking skills. That's it. That's not a failure as a woman, or however absurdly you want to phrase it. Since you put them in a relationship for this, how about the other half actually has the smarts to know what sort of woman he is dating/marrying? If one dates and marries a certain type of person, then there is implicit agreement that how they act is acceptable. If you don't like fast food and a messy home, learn to cook and clean yourself first. Then find a partner with similar standards. Saying that because what someone has between their legs should make them a live in maid is a bit silly.
philosphical
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1/28/2010 7:50:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 2:27:54 PM, Puck wrote:
At 1/27/2010 2:15:01 PM, philosphical wrote:
I don't think it is. I think woman have gone off on a tangent with their rights and kind of assumed they can just do whatever they want because they have them.

That's the general idea of rights, yes. :P

Yes but taking advantage of them, and using them improperly isn't the general idea of rights. :)

Obviously that doesn't work. Women now-a-days are generally screwed up in their way of thinking, because society has changed in a way where they think its okay for them to cheat on husbands.

Where before, men cheating on their wives was ok? And now it's ok too? Rights = cheating? Or individuals cheat? Do women with rights not cheat? Who is this society? It's an ambiguous collective fallacy.

Nope. I'm men cheat as well. But there is a dramatic difference in attitude the woman give now that they used to have back in the day. Back in the day, you could expect to generally come home to a wife who wouldn't be nagging, and would keep on top of everything around the house as far as cleaning etc.
Again this isn't all woman, just a change that has happened over the years. Of course men aren't perfect either.

and do less around the house, and get fast food for the family rather than basic old cooking.

See the issue is that it isn't intrinsic in a person's sex as to what they should or should not do with their life. A female with poor cooking skills, lacks cooking skills. That's it. That's not a failure as a woman, or however absurdly you want to phrase it.

It's not a failure as a woman, but mothers should learn how to cook if they want to prepare healthy meals for their children. Most of the time this doesn't happen anymore. Of course it's not like they are required to do anything. The point of this discussion is to talk about the changes woman have taken over the years. Yes they have rights, but and can do with them whatever they please. We're looking at whether or not it was better back in the day then it now is, though. And trying to identify what purpose.

Since you put them in a relationship for this, how about the other half actually has the smarts to know what sort of woman he is dating/marrying? If one dates and marries a certain type of person, then there is implicit agreement that how they act is acceptable. If you don't like fast food and a messy home, learn to cook and clean yourself first. Then find a partner with similar standards. Saying that because what someone has between their legs should make them a live in maid is a bit silly.

Again not a broad stereotype against woman. But there has been an increase with the amount of laziness mothers actually put into their roles, because of new technology where as they can do less and get away with it.
Who a man chooses to marry is his own decision.
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Volkov
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1/28/2010 8:00:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/28/2010 7:50:58 PM, philosphical wrote:
Yes but taking advantage of them

Well, to point out, taking advantage of your rights is kind of the point of rights. If you couldn't take advantage of them, then there isn't a point to their existence.
JBlake
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1/28/2010 8:22:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/23/2010 6:21:06 AM, Volkov wrote:
Are you f*cking kidding me, comon?
For shame, cmon, for shame. I hope your wife smacks some sensibility into you one day, because its clear you don't have it yet.

My sentiments precisely.