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What is true Freedom?

GeoLaureate8
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1/23/2010 6:38:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
This is something that came to mind based on some intriguing quotes I heard from researcher/philospher Michael Tsarion and Charles Manson. Here's what they said:

"The only really true freedom that ever has existed on this planet, is attitudinal. It exists in you. It's not something that really is a political thing in a way. If you really get down to the nitty gritty of it, how can freedom ever really be bestowed by any other agency except yourself. You know, some of the freest men have been locked up in prison for very, very long times. Many have even been locked up in dungeons in ancient times. Yet they were free because they were free in their mind." - Michael Tsarion

And I think a man who can attest to that is Charles Manson, a man who's been imprisoned since he was 9 years old.

In and interview between Geraldo Rivera and Charles Manson:

Geraldo Rivera: How do you feel about the fact that you're gonna spend the rest of your life here?

Charles Manson: The rest of my life where?

Geraldo Rivera: Right here.

Charles Manson: You guys are livin in a thousand illusions, man. The rest of your life where?

Geraldo Rivera: In prison.

Charles Manson: In prison, what prison? You got a prison in your mind? You see what I'm saying, you're in prison son. You're the one that's in jail because you think there is such a thing as a prison. I'm sittin on a line, guy comes up and draws a line and says "you're in prison." I said "oh, I'm in prison?" He puts a big gate and says "you can't get out." I said, "oh, I can't get out?" He says, "yes!" And then they dress up in uniforms and walkin back and forth and have there little passwords and paperwork and things. And I look at him and they say "we're keepin you locked up!" I said, "Oh, you are? I didn't have anything else to do anyway." The only thing you're keeping me locked up from is my guitar!

Thoughts? Agree or disagree.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ragnar_Rahl
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1/23/2010 6:44:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
You'll notice in all that you didn't manage to make a definition.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Alex
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1/23/2010 6:46:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
This whole semester of English has been on this subject. Some good people to read are Thoreau and Emerson to name a couple. I personally think freedom all comes down to how the individual defines it. I don't think any person can define such a complex concept such as freedom for anyone else. Although, i think someone who does not rely on material possessions is more free than someone who does. For what it's worth.
Why kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?
GeoLaureate8
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1/23/2010 6:47:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/23/2010 6:44:03 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
You'll notice in all that you didn't manage to make a definition.

The quotes clarified what it is and what it's not. Most people's definition of being free is not being locked up, not being restricted by laws, etc. etc. Their point is that freedom isn't a political thing, it isn't something that can be granted by a government body, it's a state of mind.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ragnar_Rahl
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1/23/2010 6:50:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Although, i think someone who does not rely on material possessions is more free than someone who does.
Since material possessions are a matter of life and death, this means freedom as you speak of it can be defined in terms of death-- as it is the lack that is the death part of the matter.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Alex
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1/23/2010 6:52:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/23/2010 6:50:16 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Although, i think someone who does not rely on material possessions is more free than someone who does.
Since material possessions are a matter of life and death, this means freedom as you speak of it can be defined in terms of death-- as it is the lack that is the death part of the matter.

I meant more along the lines of superfluous material possessions :P but yeah.
Why kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?
Ragnar_Rahl
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1/23/2010 6:53:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/23/2010 6:47:55 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 1/23/2010 6:44:03 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
You'll notice in all that you didn't manage to make a definition.

The quotes clarified what it is and what it's not. Most people's definition of being free is not being locked up, not being restricted by laws, etc. etc. Their point is that freedom isn't a political thing
That's not a point. It simply means they are speaking of something diferent than most people are, and really ought to use a different word. And no, it didnt clarify what freedom is, only what supposedly it is not.

,:it's a state of mind.
What state?
If I say gobbledegook is a state of matter, that doesn't tell me whether it's liquid, solid, or gas.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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1/23/2010 6:55:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/23/2010 6:52:02 PM, alex_hanson911 wrote:
At 1/23/2010 6:50:16 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Although, i think someone who does not rely on material possessions is more free than someone who does.
Since material possessions are a matter of life and death, this means freedom as you speak of it can be defined in terms of death-- as it is the lack that is the death part of the matter.

I meant more along the lines of superfluous material possessions :P but yeah.
Freedom is not having to care whether some a**hole thinks your possessions are superflous, since he can't steal them from you or you wouldn't be free :)
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
GeoLaureate8
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1/23/2010 7:01:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/23/2010 6:53:26 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 1/23/2010 6:47:55 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
The quotes clarified what it is and what it's not. Most people's definition of being free is not being locked up, not being restricted by laws, etc. etc. Their point is that freedom isn't a political thing
That's not a point.

Ok, statement, thought, idea.

It simply means they are speaking of something diferent than most people are, and really ought to use a different word.

Nope, they're talking about freedom. Freedom exists in the mind, and if you don't have that, what difference does it make if you're in shackles or not?

,:it's a state of mind.
What state?

A free state of mind.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ragnar_Rahl
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1/23/2010 7:06:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Ok, statement, thought, idea.
No, it's simply a different definition, one with absolutely no reason to be a definition.


It simply means they are speaking of something diferent than most people are, and really ought to use a different word.

Nope, they're talking about freedom. Freedom exists in the mind
Nope. Political concept. That's what freedom means and has for a long time now. :)

and if you don't have that, what difference does it make if you're in shackles or not?
Have what? You still don't even have specifics.


,:it's a state of mind.
What state?

A free state of mind.
I'm very glad I didn't have anything in my mouth for that spit take. Did no one ever teach you not to include a word in its own definition?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
GeoLaureate8
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1/23/2010 7:17:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/23/2010 7:06:24 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
No, it's simply a different definition, one with absolutely no reason to be a definition.

??

Nope. Political concept. That's what freedom means and has for a long time now. :)

The definition of freedom is "political concept"?

I'm very glad I didn't have anything in my mouth for that spit take. Did no one ever teach you not to include a word in its own definition?

That specific question didn't ask for a definition. You asked "what state of mind?" and I answered.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ragnar_Rahl
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1/23/2010 7:20:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago

Nope. Political concept. That's what freedom means and has for a long time now. :)

The definition of freedom is "political concept"?
No, freedom is a political concept. The definition of freedom is not being subject to force.


I'm very glad I didn't have anything in my mouth for that spit take. Did no one ever teach you not to include a word in its own definition?

That specific question didn't ask for a definition. You asked "what state of mind?" and I answered.
The question was "what state of mind" in response to "Freedom is a state of mind."
I.e., what sort of state of mind is freedom? I.e., define it. If I asked "which" that wouldn't be a request for a definition, but "what" frequently is.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
GeoLaureate8
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1/23/2010 7:31:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/23/2010 7:20:35 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
No, freedom is a political concept. The definition of freedom is not being subject to force.

Ok.

The question was "what state of mind" in response to "Freedom is a state of mind."
I.e., what sort of state of mind is freedom? I.e., define it. If I asked "which" that wouldn't be a request for a definition, but "what" frequently is.

It's like this. I said "the car is red." You ask, "what color." I respond, "a red car." So there was nothing wrong with the answer I gave you.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ragnar_Rahl
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1/23/2010 7:37:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago

The question was "what state of mind" in response to "Freedom is a state of mind."
I.e., what sort of state of mind is freedom? I.e., define it. If I asked "which" that wouldn't be a request for a definition, but "what" frequently is.

It's like this. I said "the car is red." You ask, "what color." I respond, "a red car." So there was nothing wrong with the answer I gave you.
No, it's like this: You said "Red is a color." I, not having heard the word used in such a manner before, asked "What color?" You responded "Red." This is obviously a problematic answer, as it conveys nothing to someone who doesn't already know what color red is.. In the case of red, a good answer would be linking me to this:

http://www.nightrunbulldogs.com...

In the case of freedom, a definition would be a good answer., which I still haven't been given.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
GeoLaureate8
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1/24/2010 12:43:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Hmm, I found this on Wiki. Maybe this will shed some light on the issue.

Wiki:
Outer or political freedom, or personal liberty, is the absence of outward restraints, with respect to speech, freedom of thought, religious practice,the press and the freedom to modify one's outward circumstances.

Inner freedom
, i.e. the state of being an inwardly autonomous individual capable of exerting free will or freedom of choice within a given set of outward circumstances" - http://en.wikipedia.org...(philosophy)

[For some reason DDO doesn't recognize parenthesis as part of a link.]
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ragnar_Rahl
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1/24/2010 12:48:30 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/24/2010 12:43:33 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Inner freedom, i.e. the state of being an inwardly autonomous individual capable of exerting free will or freedom of choice within a given set of outward circumstances" - http://en.wikipedia.org...(philosophy)
Free will is something most humans have. It's not something one should expend much effort getting or worrying about, since you're stuck with it and can't lose it without dying or serious brain damage.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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1/24/2010 12:53:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Also, it's not something you can say "some of the freest people I know" about meaningfully, since just about everyone has free will and it's not quantitative.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
GeoLaureate8
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1/24/2010 1:03:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/24/2010 12:48:30 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Free will is something most humans have. It's not something one should expend much effort getting or worrying about, since you're stuck with it and can't lose it

Yeah, that's kind of what the initial quote suggested.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ragnar_Rahl
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1/24/2010 1:04:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/24/2010 1:03:32 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 1/24/2010 12:48:30 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Free will is something most humans have. It's not something one should expend much effort getting or worrying about, since you're stuck with it and can't lose it

Yeah, that's kind of what the initial quote suggested.

no, it really isn't.

For one thing, free will is a faculty, not "attitudinal."

"You know, some of the freest men" also contradicts it.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
GeoLaureate8
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1/24/2010 1:05:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/24/2010 12:53:38 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Also, it's not something you can say "some of the freest people I know" about meaningfully, since just about everyone has free will and it's not quantitative.

Not a controversial statement at all.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ragnar_Rahl
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1/24/2010 1:06:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/24/2010 1:05:47 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 1/24/2010 12:53:38 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Also, it's not something you can say "some of the freest people I know" about meaningfully, since just about everyone has free will and it's not quantitative.

Not a controversial statement at all.

What are you intending to imply?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
GeoLaureate8
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1/24/2010 1:08:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/24/2010 1:04:38 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
no, it really isn't.

For one thing, free will is a faculty, not "attitudinal."

"You know, some of the freest men" also contradicts it.

First of all, we're not necessarily talking about will. We're talking about freedom. People can will a lot of things, doesn't have much to do with freedom.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ragnar_Rahl
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1/24/2010 1:11:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/24/2010 1:08:59 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 1/24/2010 1:04:38 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
no, it really isn't.

For one thing, free will is a faculty, not "attitudinal."

"You know, some of the freest men" also contradicts it.

First of all, we're not necessarily talking about will. We're talking about freedom. People can will a lot of things, doesn't have much to do with freedom.

Fail, you linked to wiki to demonstrat what you were talking about, and it talks about "
Inner freedom, i.e. the state of being an inwardly autonomous individual capable of exerting free will or freedom of choice within a given set of outward circumstances""

I.e. free will.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
GeoLaureate8
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1/24/2010 1:12:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/24/2010 1:06:54 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 1/24/2010 1:05:47 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 1/24/2010 12:53:38 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Also, it's not something you can say "some of the freest people I know" about meaningfully, since just about everyone has free will and it's not quantitative.

Not a controversial statement at all.

What are you intending to imply?

Lol, you stated it as if it's a self-evident truth when it's actually a topic that's been debated for centuries. Also, I don't understand what you're implying by saying that most people have free will. So who are the people who don't have free will?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
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1/24/2010 1:15:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/24/2010 1:11:10 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Fail, you linked to wiki to demonstrat what you were talking about, and it talks about "
Inner freedom, i.e. the state of being an inwardly autonomous individual capable of exerting free will or freedom of choice within a given set of outward circumstances""

I.e. free will.

I never said I agreed with Wiki. In fact, when I first read them, I disagreed with their definitions immediately. The point of me posting that was to show that there is "outer" and "inner" freedom, and that that's why we may have had a disagreement on what freedom is. I should have made that more clear.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ragnar_Rahl
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1/24/2010 1:16:04 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/24/2010 1:12:20 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 1/24/2010 1:06:54 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 1/24/2010 1:05:47 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 1/24/2010 12:53:38 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Also, it's not something you can say "some of the freest people I know" about meaningfully, since just about everyone has free will and it's not quantitative.

Not a controversial statement at all.

What are you intending to imply?

Lol, you stated it as if it's a self-evident truth when it's actually a topic that's been debated for centuries.
Um, no. Whether free will exists at all is a topic that has been debated for centuries. Whether if it exists then it's commonplace among humans is uncontroversial. If you're going to take the determinist stance, it means no one is "internally free," not just someone with a certain mental state.

Also, I don't understand what you're implying by saying that most people have free will. So who are the people who don't have free will?
Braindead people, and dead people. Maybe a few who are really fucked up on drugs and such to the near edge of braindeadness.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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1/24/2010 1:17:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/24/2010 1:15:36 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 1/24/2010 1:11:10 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Fail, you linked to wiki to demonstrat what you were talking about, and it talks about "
Inner freedom, i.e. the state of being an inwardly autonomous individual capable of exerting free will or freedom of choice within a given set of outward circumstances""

I.e. free will.

I never said I agreed with Wiki. In fact, when I first read them, I disagreed with their definitions immediately. The point of me posting that was to show that there is "outer" and "inner" freedom, and that that's why we may have had a disagreement on what freedom is. I should have made that more clear.

So you still don't have a definition.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
GeoLaureate8
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1/24/2010 1:28:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/24/2010 1:17:22 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
So you still don't have a definition.

If I define freedom, I am putting limits on what it is and isn't, and thus contradicts the concept of freedom. To define freedom is to put it in shackles.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Ragnar_Rahl
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1/24/2010 1:30:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/24/2010 1:28:50 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 1/24/2010 1:17:22 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
So you still don't have a definition.

If I define freedom, I am putting limits on what it is and isn't, and thus contradicts the concept of freedom.
If you're worried about contradictions, gg for that non concept (a definition is nothing but a verbal statement of a concept.

To define freedom is to put it in shackles.
Normally when someone claims to believe in something and defines it in terms of being undefinable, we call it a very stupid religion.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.