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The $hits about to hit the fan In Ukraine

Jifpop09
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3/16/2014 9:35:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
In case any of you are not aware , Crimea is now Russian. In 5 days, Russian troops are going to launch a full assault on Ukrainian bases, and Putin even has given "signs" of a likely eastern invasion. I can't stand for this nonsense. Russia should be condemned for destroying the sovereignty of Ukraine, and causing a division that will be ingrained into history. This 4ick is testing the worlds limits.

Well, anyone have any thoughts on the upcoming war, and do you think anyone will back up Ukraine from the indestructible Russian Bear?
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airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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3/16/2014 9:45:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 9:35:49 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
I can't stand for this nonsense. Russia should be condemned...

This seems to be what much of the world says too. They say that they wont stand for it, they condemn it... and then not much else. I suppose the UN is gearing up to write a very strongly worded letter and might even pass another resolution that Russia will veto.

...

To what extent can you not stand for this? Do you think we (the US, or anyone else for that matter) should send the military in and make Russia stop?
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Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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3/16/2014 9:49:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 9:45:45 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:35:49 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
I can't stand for this nonsense. Russia should be condemned...

This seems to be what much of the world says too. They say that they wont stand for it, they condemn it... and then not much else. I suppose the UN is gearing up to write a very strongly worded letter and might even pass another resolution that Russia will veto.

...

To what extent can you not stand for this? Do you think we (the US, or anyone else for that matter) should send the military in and make Russia stop?

Trust me, I am conflicted beyond belief. I have never felt more disappointed in the UN, a organization I've always respected.

I don't want war, that will lead to death. But what else can we do? Sit and watch as the Ukrainian army gets slaughtered?
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airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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3/16/2014 9:58:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 9:49:07 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:45:45 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:35:49 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
I can't stand for this nonsense. Russia should be condemned...

This seems to be what much of the world says too. They say that they wont stand for it, they condemn it... and then not much else. I suppose the UN is gearing up to write a very strongly worded letter and might even pass another resolution that Russia will veto.

...

To what extent can you not stand for this? Do you think we (the US, or anyone else for that matter) should send the military in and make Russia stop?

Trust me, I am conflicted beyond belief. I have never felt more disappointed in the UN, a organization I've always respected.

I can't imagine why anyone would respect the UN (in theory it's a good thing, in reality it fails on all of its principals), but I also don't know what anyone ever expects the UN to do in any case. They can essentially condemn whoever, and then do nothing. That's the extent of their ability. When it comes to permanent UN sec council members, they absolutely have no ability to do anything. Russia and/or China for example could invade any country and the UN couldn't do a thing about it.

I don't want war, that will lead to death. But what else can we do? Sit and watch as the Ukrainian army gets slaughtered?

That is pretty much all we can do (or all the world really cares to do anyway). Ukraine had a good run though. I hate to be a cynic, but I don't see any desire from anyone to step in here.
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Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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3/16/2014 10:02:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 9:58:36 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:49:07 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:45:45 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:35:49 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
I can't stand for this nonsense. Russia should be condemned...

This seems to be what much of the world says too. They say that they wont stand for it, they condemn it... and then not much else. I suppose the UN is gearing up to write a very strongly worded letter and might even pass another resolution that Russia will veto.

...

To what extent can you not stand for this? Do you think we (the US, or anyone else for that matter) should send the military in and make Russia stop?

Trust me, I am conflicted beyond belief. I have never felt more disappointed in the UN, a organization I've always respected.

I can't imagine why anyone would respect the UN (in theory it's a good thing, in reality it fails on all of its principals), but I also don't know what anyone ever expects the UN to do in any case. They can essentially condemn whoever, and then do nothing. That's the extent of their ability. When it comes to permanent UN sec council members, they absolutely have no ability to do anything. Russia and/or China for example could invade any country and the UN couldn't do a thing about it.


I don't want war, that will lead to death. But what else can we do? Sit and watch as the Ukrainian army gets slaughtered?

That is pretty much all we can do (or all the world really cares to do anyway). Ukraine had a good run though. I hate to be a cynic, but I don't see any desire from anyone to step in here.

The UN has done more good then you might realize, mainly from the blue berets, and there massive volunteer programs.

But when it comes to disputes between Security council members, that is where it fails. I am really pushing for more reforms to the council.
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monty1
Posts: 1,084
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3/16/2014 10:12:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Yes, Russia has definitely overstepped it's bounds. It's kept the peace regardless of territorial demands of the US/Nato terrorists who have overthrown a duly elected government in the Ukraine.

But much more egregiously, it has allowed the terrorists in the Ukraine to proceed with it's encroachment on Russia's sphere of influence and Russia has only taken a peaceful stand in order to protect the free choice of the people of the Crimea.

But alas, the people of the Crimea are only in favour of sticking with Russia by a majority of 95%.

The people of the Crimea have no moral claim to their destiny and inevitably they will purposely stand under US/Nato bombs, when they start raining down, in order to cause the appearance of US/Nato aggression, while all along the good people of the West will know that they are suicidal commie/ pinko fanatics.

Gawd blus murica!
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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3/16/2014 10:12:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
It's rather ironic that Americans finally start to pay attention when there's the scent of blood in the water.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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3/16/2014 10:13:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
60% of the Crimean population is ethnic Russian, if they want to be Russian so be it.

However, Russia should not be allowed to invade the Ukraine if it comes to that.
airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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3/16/2014 10:18:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 10:02:07 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:58:36 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:49:07 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:45:45 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:35:49 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
I can't stand for this nonsense. Russia should be condemned...

This seems to be what much of the world says too. They say that they wont stand for it, they condemn it... and then not much else. I suppose the UN is gearing up to write a very strongly worded letter and might even pass another resolution that Russia will veto.

...

To what extent can you not stand for this? Do you think we (the US, or anyone else for that matter) should send the military in and make Russia stop?

Trust me, I am conflicted beyond belief. I have never felt more disappointed in the UN, a organization I've always respected.

I can't imagine why anyone would respect the UN (in theory it's a good thing, in reality it fails on all of its principals), but I also don't know what anyone ever expects the UN to do in any case. They can essentially condemn whoever, and then do nothing. That's the extent of their ability. When it comes to permanent UN sec council members, they absolutely have no ability to do anything. Russia and/or China for example could invade any country and the UN couldn't do a thing about it.


I don't want war, that will lead to death. But what else can we do? Sit and watch as the Ukrainian army gets slaughtered?

That is pretty much all we can do (or all the world really cares to do anyway). Ukraine had a good run though. I hate to be a cynic, but I don't see any desire from anyone to step in here.

The UN has done more good then you might realize, mainly from the blue berets, and there massive volunteer programs.

I recognize where is has been able to do good and succeed. I also realize it's incapable of any kind of success in many areas. I don't necessarily respect it in many cases or in general, but I realize that it's better that we have some type of global diplomatic organization.

But when it comes to disputes between Security council members, that is where it fails. I am really pushing for more reforms to the council.

Not exactly sure what reforms you think would resolve this. Russia is a major power, and unless the US or anyone else wants to go to war with them, they can pursue their interests until someone does more than make a strongly worded condemnation of it. As far as I can tell, this is mostly over anyway. Crimea has voted to become part of Russia and regardless of whether the west recognizes it or not, it's the new reality.
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Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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3/16/2014 10:23:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 10:18:12 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:02:07 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:58:36 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:49:07 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:45:45 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:35:49 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
I can't stand for this nonsense. Russia should be condemned...

This seems to be what much of the world says too. They say that they wont stand for it, they condemn it... and then not much else. I suppose the UN is gearing up to write a very strongly worded letter and might even pass another resolution that Russia will veto.

...

To what extent can you not stand for this? Do you think we (the US, or anyone else for that matter) should send the military in and make Russia stop?

Trust me, I am conflicted beyond belief. I have never felt more disappointed in the UN, a organization I've always respected.

I can't imagine why anyone would respect the UN (in theory it's a good thing, in reality it fails on all of its principals), but I also don't know what anyone ever expects the UN to do in any case. They can essentially condemn whoever, and then do nothing. That's the extent of their ability. When it comes to permanent UN sec council members, they absolutely have no ability to do anything. Russia and/or China for example could invade any country and the UN couldn't do a thing about it.


I don't want war, that will lead to death. But what else can we do? Sit and watch as the Ukrainian army gets slaughtered?

That is pretty much all we can do (or all the world really cares to do anyway). Ukraine had a good run though. I hate to be a cynic, but I don't see any desire from anyone to step in here.

The UN has done more good then you might realize, mainly from the blue berets, and there massive volunteer programs.

I recognize where is has been able to do good and succeed. I also realize it's incapable of any kind of success in many areas. I don't necessarily respect it in many cases or in general, but I realize that it's better that we have some type of global diplomatic organization.

But when it comes to disputes between Security council members, that is where it fails. I am really pushing for more reforms to the council.

Not exactly sure what reforms you think would resolve this. Russia is a major power, and unless the US or anyone else wants to go to war with them, they can pursue their interests until someone does more than make a strongly worded condemnation of it. As far as I can tell, this is mostly over anyway. Crimea has voted to become part of Russia and regardless of whether the west recognizes it or not, it's the new reality.

As for the the good the UN has done, I would happily give you a long list of successful mas aid programs, and peacekeeping missions.

As for reforms, there are talks of expanding the G nations and eliminating some of the power of the veto. A tool Russia and China have used to their advantage more then once.
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airmax1227
Posts: 13,244
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3/16/2014 10:28:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 10:23:36 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:18:12 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:02:07 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:58:36 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:49:07 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:45:45 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:35:49 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
I can't stand for this nonsense. Russia should be condemned...

This seems to be what much of the world says too. They say that they wont stand for it, they condemn it... and then not much else. I suppose the UN is gearing up to write a very strongly worded letter and might even pass another resolution that Russia will veto.

...

To what extent can you not stand for this? Do you think we (the US, or anyone else for that matter) should send the military in and make Russia stop?

Trust me, I am conflicted beyond belief. I have never felt more disappointed in the UN, a organization I've always respected.

I can't imagine why anyone would respect the UN (in theory it's a good thing, in reality it fails on all of its principals), but I also don't know what anyone ever expects the UN to do in any case. They can essentially condemn whoever, and then do nothing. That's the extent of their ability. When it comes to permanent UN sec council members, they absolutely have no ability to do anything. Russia and/or China for example could invade any country and the UN couldn't do a thing about it.


I don't want war, that will lead to death. But what else can we do? Sit and watch as the Ukrainian army gets slaughtered?

That is pretty much all we can do (or all the world really cares to do anyway). Ukraine had a good run though. I hate to be a cynic, but I don't see any desire from anyone to step in here.

The UN has done more good then you might realize, mainly from the blue berets, and there massive volunteer programs.

I recognize where is has been able to do good and succeed. I also realize it's incapable of any kind of success in many areas. I don't necessarily respect it in many cases or in general, but I realize that it's better that we have some type of global diplomatic organization.

But when it comes to disputes between Security council members, that is where it fails. I am really pushing for more reforms to the council.

Not exactly sure what reforms you think would resolve this. Russia is a major power, and unless the US or anyone else wants to go to war with them, they can pursue their interests until someone does more than make a strongly worded condemnation of it. As far as I can tell, this is mostly over anyway. Crimea has voted to become part of Russia and regardless of whether the west recognizes it or not, it's the new reality.

As for the the good the UN has done, I would happily give you a long list of successful mas aid programs, and peacekeeping missions.

I'm aware.

As for reforms, there are talks of expanding the G nations and eliminating some of the power of the veto. A tool Russia and China have used to their advantage more then once.

The US also uses the veto to its advantage. I'm also not sure what difference it makes anyway. A UN sec council resolution is only as good as its enforcement. Neither the US, nor the rest of the world, is interested in a war with Russia.
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monty1
Posts: 1,084
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3/16/2014 10:29:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 10:13:00 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
60% of the Crimean population is ethnic Russian, if they want to be Russian so be it.

However, Russia should not be allowed to invade the Ukraine if it comes to that.

You miss the point. The US/Nato sponsored terrorists have no right to take over the Ukraine and depose a duly elected government. And so, if Russia moves into the Ukraine then it will be as a counter-measure to US/Nato territorial gain at Russia's expense.

But how could you be aware of anything tht counterspins the continuous propaganda efforts you have been subjected to since the beginning of this socalled 'crisis'?

Under no circumstances should any good American ever go to http://rt.com... and subject themselves to commie/pinko counterspin. The pink will never wear off!
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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3/16/2014 10:32:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 10:28:53 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:23:36 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:18:12 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:02:07 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:58:36 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:49:07 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:45:45 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:35:49 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
I can't stand for this nonsense. Russia should be condemned...

This seems to be what much of the world says too. They say that they wont stand for it, they condemn it... and then not much else. I suppose the UN is gearing up to write a very strongly worded letter and might even pass another resolution that Russia will veto.

...

To what extent can you not stand for this? Do you think we (the US, or anyone else for that matter) should send the military in and make Russia stop?

Trust me, I am conflicted beyond belief. I have never felt more disappointed in the UN, a organization I've always respected.

I can't imagine why anyone would respect the UN (in theory it's a good thing, in reality it fails on all of its principals), but I also don't know what anyone ever expects the UN to do in any case. They can essentially condemn whoever, and then do nothing. That's the extent of their ability. When it comes to permanent UN sec council members, they absolutely have no ability to do anything. Russia and/or China for example could invade any country and the UN couldn't do a thing about it.


I don't want war, that will lead to death. But what else can we do? Sit and watch as the Ukrainian army gets slaughtered?

That is pretty much all we can do (or all the world really cares to do anyway). Ukraine had a good run though. I hate to be a cynic, but I don't see any desire from anyone to step in here.

The UN has done more good then you might realize, mainly from the blue berets, and there massive volunteer programs.

I recognize where is has been able to do good and succeed. I also realize it's incapable of any kind of success in many areas. I don't necessarily respect it in many cases or in general, but I realize that it's better that we have some type of global diplomatic organization.

But when it comes to disputes between Security council members, that is where it fails. I am really pushing for more reforms to the council.

Not exactly sure what reforms you think would resolve this. Russia is a major power, and unless the US or anyone else wants to go to war with them, they can pursue their interests until someone does more than make a strongly worded condemnation of it. As far as I can tell, this is mostly over anyway. Crimea has voted to become part of Russia and regardless of whether the west recognizes it or not, it's the new reality.

As for the the good the UN has done, I would happily give you a long list of successful mas aid programs, and peacekeeping missions.

I'm aware.

As for reforms, there are talks of expanding the G nations and eliminating some of the power of the veto. A tool Russia and China have used to their advantage more then once.

The US also uses the veto to its advantage. I'm also not sure what difference it makes anyway. A UN sec council resolution is only as good as its enforcement. Neither the US, nor the rest of the world, is interested in a war with Russia.

There are two big problems with the veto, that makes the UN ineffective.

1. Vetoes are pointless in a council. Imagine the senate with veto powers

2. Vetoes can't be overturned in the UN. A serious flaw.
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ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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3/16/2014 10:32:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 10:29:22 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:13:00 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
60% of the Crimean population is ethnic Russian, if they want to be Russian so be it.

However, Russia should not be allowed to invade the Ukraine if it comes to that.

You miss the point. The US/Nato sponsored terrorists have no right to take over the Ukraine and depose a duly elected government. And so, if Russia moves into the Ukraine then it will be as a counter-measure to US/Nato territorial gain at Russia's expense.

But how could you be aware of anything tht counterspins the continuous propaganda efforts you have been subjected to since the beginning of this socalled 'crisis'?

Under no circumstances should any good American ever go to http://rt.com... and subject themselves to commie/pinko counterspin. The pink will never wear off!

I agree the government in control of the Ukraine right now is illegitimate. Back off broski.
Jifpop09
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3/16/2014 10:33:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 10:29:22 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:13:00 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
60% of the Crimean population is ethnic Russian, if they want to be Russian so be it.

However, Russia should not be allowed to invade the Ukraine if it comes to that.

You miss the point. The US/Nato sponsored terrorists have no right to take over the Ukraine and depose a duly elected government. And so, if Russia moves into the Ukraine then it will be as a counter-measure to US/Nato territorial gain at Russia's expense.

But how could you be aware of anything tht counterspins the continuous propaganda efforts you have been subjected to since the beginning of this socalled 'crisis'?

Under no circumstances should any good American ever go to http://rt.com... and subject themselves to commie/pinko counterspin. The pink will never wear off!

Monty, I will not even interact with you. You stated that the Russians in Ukraine were a lie perpetrated by western media -_-
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monty1
Posts: 1,084
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3/16/2014 10:41:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 10:33:20 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:29:22 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:13:00 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
60% of the Crimean population is ethnic Russian, if they want to be Russian so be it.

However, Russia should not be allowed to invade the Ukraine if it comes to that.

You miss the point. The US/Nato sponsored terrorists have no right to take over the Ukraine and depose a duly elected government. And so, if Russia moves into the Ukraine then it will be as a counter-measure to US/Nato territorial gain at Russia's expense.

But how could you be aware of anything tht counterspins the continuous propaganda efforts you have been subjected to since the beginning of this socalled 'crisis'?

Under no circumstances should any good American ever go to http://rt.com... and subject themselves to commie/pinko counterspin. The pink will never wear off!

Monty, I will not even interact with you. You stated that the Russians in Ukraine were a lie perpetrated by western media -_-

I'm not very concerned at all over the situation. Russia has the moral high ground with a 95% referendum. At worst, the US will enlist the support of their lapdogs and their blackmailed list of Pacific coral atolls. Russia with it's huge oil wealth has gained immunity from US dirty tricks.

And of course when it comes to powerful nuclear armed nations such as Russia, there doesn't seem to be any other remedy for the US malaise?

And as totally expected, China abstained!

What now?
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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3/16/2014 10:44:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 10:41:36 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:33:20 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:29:22 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:13:00 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
60% of the Crimean population is ethnic Russian, if they want to be Russian so be it.

However, Russia should not be allowed to invade the Ukraine if it comes to that.

You miss the point. The US/Nato sponsored terrorists have no right to take over the Ukraine and depose a duly elected government. And so, if Russia moves into the Ukraine then it will be as a counter-measure to US/Nato territorial gain at Russia's expense.

But how could you be aware of anything tht counterspins the continuous propaganda efforts you have been subjected to since the beginning of this socalled 'crisis'?

Under no circumstances should any good American ever go to http://rt.com... and subject themselves to commie/pinko counterspin. The pink will never wear off!

Monty, I will not even interact with you. You stated that the Russians in Ukraine were a lie perpetrated by western media -_-

I'm not very concerned at all over the situation. Russia has the moral high ground with a 95% referendum. At worst, the US will enlist the support of their lapdogs and their blackmailed list of Pacific coral atolls. Russia with it's huge oil wealth has gained immunity from US dirty tricks.

And of course when it comes to powerful nuclear armed nations such as Russia, there doesn't seem to be any other remedy for the US malaise?

And as totally expected, China abstained!

What now?

The referendum was illegal, fraudulent, and stupid. There was a predicted 40% who would vote no, so explain that easterner.
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EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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3/16/2014 10:47:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I find the situation there to be rather complicated. Could there be a war? Possibly, though it doesn't seem likely. Although many news outlets are saying that Ukraine and Russia could go to war.

Both the EU and the US have backed Ukraine, though mostly through condemnations and warnings - a lot like Chamberlain, actually. I doubt they'd seek a war with Russia over Ukraine.

On the other hand, nobody actually thought Putin would press this issue and invade the Crimea, so anything's possible.
monty1
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3/16/2014 10:49:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 10:44:17 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:41:36 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:33:20 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:29:22 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:13:00 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
60% of the Crimean population is ethnic Russian, if they want to be Russian so be it.

However, Russia should not be allowed to invade the Ukraine if it comes to that.

You miss the point. The US/Nato sponsored terrorists have no right to take over the Ukraine and depose a duly elected government. And so, if Russia moves into the Ukraine then it will be as a counter-measure to US/Nato territorial gain at Russia's expense.

But how could you be aware of anything tht counterspins the continuous propaganda efforts you have been subjected to since the beginning of this socalled 'crisis'?

Under no circumstances should any good American ever go to http://rt.com... and subject themselves to commie/pinko counterspin. The pink will never wear off!

Monty, I will not even interact with you. You stated that the Russians in Ukraine were a lie perpetrated by western media -_-

I'm not very concerned at all over the situation. Russia has the moral high ground with a 95% referendum. At worst, the US will enlist the support of their lapdogs and their blackmailed list of Pacific coral atolls. Russia with it's huge oil wealth has gained immunity from US dirty tricks.

And of course when it comes to powerful nuclear armed nations such as Russia, there doesn't seem to be any other remedy for the US malaise?

And as totally expected, China abstained!

What now?

The referendum was illegal, fraudulent, and stupid. There was a predicted 40% who would vote no, so explain that easterner.

You said the referendum was stupid. How could any reasonably intelligent person refute such powerful and logical words?

Relax! And pray to geezuz that Russia steps further into the Ukriane! I'll give you the same 95% odds that Putin won't.
Jifpop09
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3/16/2014 11:01:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 10:49:23 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:44:17 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:41:36 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:33:20 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:29:22 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:13:00 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
60% of the Crimean population is ethnic Russian, if they want to be Russian so be it.

However, Russia should not be allowed to invade the Ukraine if it comes to that.

You miss the point. The US/Nato sponsored terrorists have no right to take over the Ukraine and depose a duly elected government. And so, if Russia moves into the Ukraine then it will be as a counter-measure to US/Nato territorial gain at Russia's expense.

But how could you be aware of anything tht counterspins the continuous propaganda efforts you have been subjected to since the beginning of this socalled 'crisis'?

Under no circumstances should any good American ever go to http://rt.com... and subject themselves to commie/pinko counterspin. The pink will never wear off!

Monty, I will not even interact with you. You stated that the Russians in Ukraine were a lie perpetrated by western media -_-

I'm not very concerned at all over the situation. Russia has the moral high ground with a 95% referendum. At worst, the US will enlist the support of their lapdogs and their blackmailed list of Pacific coral atolls. Russia with it's huge oil wealth has gained immunity from US dirty tricks.

And of course when it comes to powerful nuclear armed nations such as Russia, there doesn't seem to be any other remedy for the US malaise?

And as totally expected, China abstained!

What now?

The referendum was illegal, fraudulent, and stupid. There was a predicted 40% who would vote no, so explain that easterner.

You said the referendum was stupid. How could any reasonably intelligent person refute such powerful and logical words?

Relax! And pray to geezuz that Russia steps further into the Ukriane! I'll give you the same 95% odds that Putin won't.

Then you'll look the fool when they do. There have been many people like you, who were told whats going to happen, and you kept denying and denying. Russia's already done this 3 times now, so I tell you, 100% they'll do it again. Don't be on the fool side of history.
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Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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3/16/2014 11:02:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 10:47:19 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
I find the situation there to be rather complicated. Could there be a war? Possibly, though it doesn't seem likely. Although many news outlets are saying that Ukraine and Russia could go to war.

Both the EU and the US have backed Ukraine, though mostly through condemnations and warnings - a lot like Chamberlain, actually. I doubt they'd seek a war with Russia over Ukraine.

On the other hand, nobody actually thought Putin would press this issue and invade the Crimea, so anything's possible.

I think the war is without doubt. Ukraine refuses to leave and Russia refuses to let them stay. On the 21st, the truce ends and the bloodshed begins. They are already lined up at the border as we speak.
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wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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3/16/2014 11:33:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 10:13:00 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
60% of the Crimean population is ethnic Russian, if they want to be Russian so be it.

However, Russia should not be allowed to invade the Ukraine if it comes to that.

What exactly is an "invasion"?

For example, did the UN "invade" Kosovo when it deployed a peacekeeping force there?

What makes this any different, other than the organization deploying the troops?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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3/16/2014 11:37:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 10:02:07 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:58:36 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:49:07 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:45:45 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:35:49 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
I can't stand for this nonsense. Russia should be condemned...

This seems to be what much of the world says too. They say that they wont stand for it, they condemn it... and then not much else. I suppose the UN is gearing up to write a very strongly worded letter and might even pass another resolution that Russia will veto.

...

To what extent can you not stand for this? Do you think we (the US, or anyone else for that matter) should send the military in and make Russia stop?

Trust me, I am conflicted beyond belief. I have never felt more disappointed in the UN, a organization I've always respected.

I can't imagine why anyone would respect the UN (in theory it's a good thing, in reality it fails on all of its principals), but I also don't know what anyone ever expects the UN to do in any case. They can essentially condemn whoever, and then do nothing. That's the extent of their ability. When it comes to permanent UN sec council members, they absolutely have no ability to do anything. Russia and/or China for example could invade any country and the UN couldn't do a thing about it.


I don't want war, that will lead to death. But what else can we do? Sit and watch as the Ukrainian army gets slaughtered?

That is pretty much all we can do (or all the world really cares to do anyway). Ukraine had a good run though. I hate to be a cynic, but I don't see any desire from anyone to step in here.

The UN has done more good then you might realize, mainly from the blue berets, and there massive volunteer programs.

But when it comes to disputes between Security council members, that is where it fails. I am really pushing for more reforms to the council.

I will simply note that I more or less predicted the underlined outcomes in the other thread, that the UN floating a resolution only for Russia to veto it would put advocates for US/NATO intervention in a position to either discredit the UN, violate existing UN principles, or call for the destruction of the UN as we know it.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
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3/17/2014 12:06:39 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 10:32:26 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:28:53 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:23:36 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:18:12 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:02:07 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:58:36 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:49:07 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:45:45 PM, airmax1227 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 9:35:49 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
I can't stand for this nonsense. Russia should be condemned...

This seems to be what much of the world says too. They say that they wont stand for it, they condemn it... and then not much else. I suppose the UN is gearing up to write a very strongly worded letter and might even pass another resolution that Russia will veto.

...

To what extent can you not stand for this? Do you think we (the US, or anyone else for that matter) should send the military in and make Russia stop?

Trust me, I am conflicted beyond belief. I have never felt more disappointed in the UN, a organization I've always respected.

I can't imagine why anyone would respect the UN (in theory it's a good thing, in reality it fails on all of its principals), but I also don't know what anyone ever expects the UN to do in any case. They can essentially condemn whoever, and then do nothing. That's the extent of their ability. When it comes to permanent UN sec council members, they absolutely have no ability to do anything. Russia and/or China for example could invade any country and the UN couldn't do a thing about it.


I don't want war, that will lead to death. But what else can we do? Sit and watch as the Ukrainian army gets slaughtered?

That is pretty much all we can do (or all the world really cares to do anyway). Ukraine had a good run though. I hate to be a cynic, but I don't see any desire from anyone to step in here.

The UN has done more good then you might realize, mainly from the blue berets, and there massive volunteer programs.

I recognize where is has been able to do good and succeed. I also realize it's incapable of any kind of success in many areas. I don't necessarily respect it in many cases or in general, but I realize that it's better that we have some type of global diplomatic organization.

But when it comes to disputes between Security council members, that is where it fails. I am really pushing for more reforms to the council.

Not exactly sure what reforms you think would resolve this. Russia is a major power, and unless the US or anyone else wants to go to war with them, they can pursue their interests until someone does more than make a strongly worded condemnation of it. As far as I can tell, this is mostly over anyway. Crimea has voted to become part of Russia and regardless of whether the west recognizes it or not, it's the new reality.

As for the the good the UN has done, I would happily give you a long list of successful mas aid programs, and peacekeeping missions.

I'm aware.

As for reforms, there are talks of expanding the G nations and eliminating some of the power of the veto. A tool Russia and China have used to their advantage more then once.

The US also uses the veto to its advantage. I'm also not sure what difference it makes anyway. A UN sec council resolution is only as good as its enforcement. Neither the US, nor the rest of the world, is interested in a war with Russia.

There are two big problems with the veto, that makes the UN ineffective.

1. Vetoes are pointless in a council. Imagine the senate with veto powers

2. Vetoes can't be overturned in the UN. A serious flaw.

1. The POTUS has a veto, and it is hardly "pointless". The POTUS is part of the "council" that consists of our elected government. The Senate has what amounts to a de facto veto via filibuster.

2. About overturning the veto, that points to the autonomy that the UN constituents have (especially permanent security council members) vis a vis the UN governing structure. Basically, the UN has no teeth, and cannot compel "significant" members to act according to the wishes of other members. The UN is not a federation, and is not a government. At best it is an (extremely) loose alliance between member states of the world.

In the end, the UN is IMHO accomplishing its purpose, getting the world to agree on something. The problem is simple - the world rarely agrees on anything, and parts of the world that matter - Russia and China in this case - do not agree with other members on what to do in the Crimea.

The only changes I could see in the UN is expanding the number of permanent security council members. This gets iffy, because top of the list would probably be India, but that would only come "over Pakistan's dead body", and is archetypal on the root problem...member states in disagreement. Also, even expanding the number would simply lead to a continuation of what we already have, which is essentially a tyranny by permanent security council members over those that are not and are unable to defend themselves. Iraq, Afghanistan, and Georgia are cases in point that tarnish the images of both sides of the polarity. Ukraine seems to simply be one more straw on this camel's back.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Juan_Pablo
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3/17/2014 12:11:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
If Russia doesn't reverse course, I predict the US, European countries, and other nations will place sanctions on Russia - but will not militarize that part of the world, in fear of creating another Cold War. This will put President Putin in a very uncomfortable situation, as he wont have the threat of a military build-up in Eastern Europe, which he could have used effectively to sell the Russians on fear and patriotrism, but he will have economy-harming sanctions to deal with. Without a military build-up across the border he loses the pretense for further military bravado and the build-up of his own military in that part of the world, which he could have used to pump up Russians with. Instead he gets sanctions from around the world . . . that slowly cripple the Russian economy.

I think in a few months time he's going to realize what a mistake this was.
Juan_Pablo
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3/17/2014 12:20:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Selling yourself on militaristic machismo isn't going to do much against a slew of international sanctions, not unless he wants to play the Russian version of Kim Jung-un - which I highly doubt.
Juan_Pablo
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3/17/2014 12:30:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Correction:

If Russia doesn't reverse course, I predict the US, European countries, and other nations will place sanctions on Russia - but will not militarize that part of the world, in fear of creating another Cold War. This will put President Putin in a very uncomfortable situation, as he wont have the threat of a military build-up in Eastern Europe, which he could have used effectively to sell the Russians on fear and patriotism, but he will have economy-harming sanctions to deal with. Without a military build-up across the border he loses the pretense for further military escalation, which he could have used to pump up Russians with. Instead he gets sanctions from around the world . . . which slowly cripple the Russian economy.

I think in a few months time he's going to realize what a mistake this was.
slo1
Posts: 4,359
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3/17/2014 8:00:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Let's get some realism here. This is how shxt is going down.

First thing to note is that American media is no longer profitable getting the fully story, so we only get shrill opinion pieces rather than hard news.

As a result we miss out on things such as this joint US German flight over Russia to observe whether troops are building up. This is part of the Open Sky treaty.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk...
http://en.wikipedia.org...

They will not find anything alarming.

Second, Russia does not want Ukraine, they want Crimea.

SO

1. They continue with absorbing Crimea into Russia.
2. Ukraine can not attack because nobody will back them and they would get crushed.
3. If Russia really has eyes on Ukraine they simply use terrorism as the in over the next decade. They can either artificially create terrorism or there will be Ukraine terror groups causing trouble in Crimea, which would give Russia enough to eventually invade to stamp out.

Best thing Ukraine can do is let Russia take over Crimea and get the west on their side to help with sanctions while focusing on getting western military in the Ukraine so it becomes a full out war should Russia ever invade.
ararmer1919
Posts: 362
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3/17/2014 8:45:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 10:12:01 PM, monty1 wrote:
Yes, Russia has definitely overstepped it's bounds. It's kept the peace regardless of territorial demands of the US/Nato terrorists who have overthrown a duly elected government in the Ukraine.

That duly elected government massacred hundreds of people. At some point during all that you have to admit that they can take that democratically elected d!ck and shove it up his a$$.

But much more egregiously, it has allowed the terrorists in the Ukraine to proceed with it's encroachment on Russia's sphere of influence and Russia has only taken a peaceful stand in order to protect the free choice of the people of the Crimea.

WHAT ENCROACHMENT?? How has Russia been threatened in any way by the Ukrainian nation? And the people of Crimea were not being restricted of their freedoms.

But alas, the people of the Crimea are only in favour of sticking with Russia by a majority of 95%.

Yes. And the 20,000+ Russian troops marching down their streets and the Moscow lackeys that make up the Crimean parliament who also had Russian soldiers standing behind them watching their every move had absolutely NOTHING to do with the outcome of this vote and they had no influence whatsoever on the peoples decision...

The people of the Crimea have no moral claim to their destiny and inevitably they will purposely stand under US/Nato bombs, when they start raining down, in order to cause the appearance of US/Nato aggression, while all along the good people of the West will know that they are suicidal commie/ pinko fanatics.

God your ability to spout such nonsense is truly amazing.

Gawd blus murica!

Lol.
ararmer1919
Posts: 362
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3/17/2014 8:48:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/16/2014 10:29:22 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/16/2014 10:13:00 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
60% of the Crimean population is ethnic Russian, if they want to be Russian so be it.

However, Russia should not be allowed to invade the Ukraine if it comes to that.

You miss the point. The US/Nato sponsored terrorists have no right to take over the Ukraine and depose a duly elected government. And so, if Russia moves into the Ukraine then it will be as a counter-measure to US/Nato territorial gain at Russia's expense.

But how could you be aware of anything tht counterspins the continuous propaganda efforts you have been subjected to since the beginning of this socalled 'crisis'?

Under no circumstances should any good American ever go to http://rt.com... and subject themselves to commie/pinko counterspin. The pink will never wear off!

And YOU don't see the propaganda here? And I have spent as much of my time on Russian news sources as I have western thank you.