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What do you think will happen next in Ukraine

adelehitch
Posts: 4
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3/24/2014 1:53:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Hi guys,

So this is my question for the day what do you guys think?? I came up with this question after looking at some political.com questions this morning.
ararmer1919
Posts: 362
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3/24/2014 5:27:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/24/2014 1:53:42 PM, adelehitch wrote:
Hi guys,

So this is my question for the day what do you guys think?? I came up with this question after looking at some political.com questions this morning.

Russia will invade.
YYW
Posts: 36,289
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3/24/2014 5:37:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/24/2014 5:27:34 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 3/24/2014 1:53:42 PM, adelehitch wrote:
Hi guys,

So this is my question for the day what do you guys think?? I came up with this question after looking at some political.com questions this morning.

Russia will invade.

I think that's a 50/50 right now.
Tsar of DDO
ararmer1919
Posts: 362
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3/24/2014 6:01:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/24/2014 5:37:19 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/24/2014 5:27:34 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 3/24/2014 1:53:42 PM, adelehitch wrote:
Hi guys,

So this is my question for the day what do you guys think?? I came up with this question after looking at some political.com questions this morning.

Russia will invade.

I think that's a 50/50 right now.

Just a wild guess on my part. Way I see it. Crimea was just the stepping stone Putin used to see just how far he could push without anyone doing jack to stop him. The entire Ukraine has always been his real objective. And now the world has shown him their hesitance to fight back. I think this will happen sooner rather then later. But who knows. I'm more then willing to say I could be wrong.

Then again Putin himself did say Russia has no plans of invading the rest of the Ukraine so based off his track record it's pretty safe to assume they will in fact invade.
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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3/24/2014 7:08:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/24/2014 1:53:42 PM, adelehitch wrote:
Hi guys,

So this is my question for the day what do you guys think?? I came up with this question after looking at some political.com questions this morning.

Tlhe opinion of even the US propagandists now is that Putin doesn't have any interntions to continue to take more of Ukraine. I concur with that and was quite convinced right from the beginning that wasn't his intention.

The Crimea is Russia's and the US/Nato have pretty well accepted that there's little they can do to change that by further meddling in the affairs of Russia. The power of the people's voice in Crimea trumps propaganda in this case.

As to the remainder of the Ukraine and US/Nato ambitions. There'll be a lot of money pumped in attempts to bring the people's loyalties over to the US/Nato side. It won't be easy to do as the people of the Ukraine feel a loyalty to Russia, regardless of what the polls say. And then too, the polls could very well be slanted in Russia's favour.

Everyone should remember that the takeover government is not installed because of popular support. If democracy is allowed to work to a conclusion there's a good possibility that the people will choose a government that is sympathetic to Russia.

The US/Nato objective will be to keep the people from voicing their preference until the money that's pumped in to buy democracy has taken it's desired effect.
ararmer1919
Posts: 362
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3/24/2014 7:27:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/24/2014 7:08:16 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/24/2014 1:53:42 PM, adelehitch wrote:
Hi guys,

So this is my question for the day what do you guys think?? I came up with this question after looking at some political.com questions this morning.

Tlhe opinion of even the US propagandists now is that Putin doesn't have any interntions to continue to take more of Ukraine. I concur with that and was quite convinced right from the beginning that wasn't his intention.

The Crimea is Russia's and the US/Nato have pretty well accepted that there's little they can do to change that by further meddling in the affairs of Russia. The power of the people's voice in Crimea trumps propaganda in this case.

As to the remainder of the Ukraine and US/Nato ambitions. There'll be a lot of money pumped in attempts to bring the people's loyalties over to the US/Nato side. It won't be easy to do as the people of the Ukraine feel a loyalty to Russia, regardless of what the polls say. And then too, the polls could very well be slanted in Russia's favour.

Everyone should remember that the takeover government is not installed because of popular support. If democracy is allowed to work to a conclusion there's a good possibility that the people will choose a government that is sympathetic to Russia.

The US/Nato objective will be to keep the people from voicing their preference until the money that's pumped in to buy democracy has taken it's desired effect.

Please stay on topic. Thank you.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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3/25/2014 3:40:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/24/2014 6:01:51 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 3/24/2014 5:37:19 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/24/2014 5:27:34 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 3/24/2014 1:53:42 PM, adelehitch wrote:
Hi guys,

So this is my question for the day what do you guys think?? I came up with this question after looking at some political.com questions this morning.

Russia will invade.

I think that's a 50/50 right now.

Just a wild guess on my part. Way I see it. Crimea was just the stepping stone Putin used to see just how far he could push without anyone doing jack to stop him. The entire Ukraine has always been his real objective. And now the world has shown him their hesitance to fight back. I think this will happen sooner rather then later. But who knows. I'm more then willing to say I could be wrong.

Then again Putin himself did say Russia has no plans of invading the rest of the Ukraine so based off his track record it's pretty safe to assume they will in fact invade.

I think they will "occupy" the Crimea using the "will of the people" as justification. The West will paint it as an "invasion" because of the "sovereignty" of the provisional Ukrainian government, which ostensibly controls the Crimea.

On "real objectives" both Russia and the US (and indeed any and every other country in the world) have the same objective - hegemony.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
BusticStud
Posts: 1
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3/25/2014 6:36:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/24/2014 1:53:42 PM, adelehitch wrote:
Hi guys,

So this is my question for the day what do you guys think?? I came up with this question after looking at some political.com questions this morning.

I think at this point that with Crimea joining Russia. The question is "Is Russia finished in Crimea. The Russian Federation could be looking to gain other states with Russian culture such as Transnistria in Moldova. With the concerns of the Ukraine leaders in Kiev it would be a growing separatist sentiment in its cities closest to its eastern border with Russia.
All politicians are crooks, but democrats are our crooks.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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3/25/2014 12:35:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/25/2014 6:36:12 AM, BusticStud wrote:
At 3/24/2014 1:53:42 PM, adelehitch wrote:
Hi guys,

So this is my question for the day what do you guys think?? I came up with this question after looking at some political.com questions this morning.

I think at this point that with Crimea joining Russia. The question is "Is Russia finished in Crimea. The Russian Federation could be looking to gain other states with Russian culture such as Transnistria in Moldova. With the concerns of the Ukraine leaders in Kiev it would be a growing separatist sentiment in its cities closest to its eastern border with Russia.

I think generally speaking, what this is is indicative of a power vacuum that is (very) slowly being filled after the collapse of the USSR.

The West attempted to utilize its "democratic self-determinism" model of co-optation, but evidently that did not fully catch on in the former USSR satellite states. These "independent nations" cannot survive on their own without being under the protection of the two dominant regional forces, a US-led NATO coalition, or Russia.

This isn't a loss for the West (as NATO is not any smaller regardless of what happens in the Ukraine), but it's certainly a win for Russia.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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3/25/2014 1:05:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/25/2014 12:35:50 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/25/2014 6:36:12 AM, BusticStud wrote:
At 3/24/2014 1:53:42 PM, adelehitch wrote:
Hi guys,

So this is my question for the day what do you guys think?? I came up with this question after looking at some political.com questions this morning.

I think at this point that with Crimea joining Russia. The question is "Is Russia finished in Crimea. The Russian Federation could be looking to gain other states with Russian culture such as Transnistria in Moldova. With the concerns of the Ukraine leaders in Kiev it would be a growing separatist sentiment in its cities closest to its eastern border with Russia.

I think generally speaking, what this is is indicative of a power vacuum that is (very) slowly being filled after the collapse of the USSR.

The West attempted to utilize its "democratic self-determinism" model of co-optation, but evidently that did not fully catch on in the former USSR satellite states. These "independent nations" cannot survive on their own without being under the protection of the two dominant regional forces, a US-led NATO coalition, or Russia.

This isn't a loss for the West (as NATO is not any smaller regardless of what happens in the Ukraine), but it's certainly a win for Russia.

That's worth a reply! I think small nations can remain independent if the superpowers have no strategic interest in them. Strategic interests leading to political and economic interests of course.

And in that regard, I have to disagree with you that there was no loss to the US with Crimea choosing Russia's sphere of influence. Just as Kosovo was a loss to Russia.

Do you think for one minute that either the US or Russia was interested in the Crimean peninsula strictly on moral grounds?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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3/25/2014 1:12:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/25/2014 1:05:29 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/25/2014 12:35:50 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/25/2014 6:36:12 AM, BusticStud wrote:
At 3/24/2014 1:53:42 PM, adelehitch wrote:
Hi guys,

So this is my question for the day what do you guys think?? I came up with this question after looking at some political.com questions this morning.

I think at this point that with Crimea joining Russia. The question is "Is Russia finished in Crimea. The Russian Federation could be looking to gain other states with Russian culture such as Transnistria in Moldova. With the concerns of the Ukraine leaders in Kiev it would be a growing separatist sentiment in its cities closest to its eastern border with Russia.

I think generally speaking, what this is is indicative of a power vacuum that is (very) slowly being filled after the collapse of the USSR.

The West attempted to utilize its "democratic self-determinism" model of co-optation, but evidently that did not fully catch on in the former USSR satellite states. These "independent nations" cannot survive on their own without being under the protection of the two dominant regional forces, a US-led NATO coalition, or Russia.

This isn't a loss for the West (as NATO is not any smaller regardless of what happens in the Ukraine), but it's certainly a win for Russia.

That's worth a reply! I think small nations can remain independent if the superpowers have no strategic interest in them. Strategic interests leading to political and economic interests of course.

Agree.

And in that regard, I have to disagree with you that there was no loss to the US with Crimea choosing Russia's sphere of influence. Just as Kosovo was a loss to Russia.

I see what you're saying. All I was saying was that the Crimea was not really under Western influence beforehand, so although I agree with you on the strategic consequences of what may/may not occur there and that on a relativistic basis the US may now have a weaker hand vis a vis Russia, looking at the static numbers, the US's position did not change, whereas Russia's position obviously benefited.

Do you think for one minute that either the US or Russia was interested in the Crimean peninsula strictly on moral grounds?

I believe "morality" and "politics" are mutually exclusive, unless you consider self-interest to be a moral position. Still, that would condone anything, as long as it makes one's position better...it would condone genocide, torture, etc.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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3/25/2014 1:30:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/25/2014 1:12:06 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/25/2014 1:05:29 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/25/2014 12:35:50 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 3/25/2014 6:36:12 AM, BusticStud wrote:
At 3/24/2014 1:53:42 PM, adelehitch wrote:
Hi guys,

So this is my question for the day what do you guys think?? I came up with this question after looking at some political.com questions this morning.

I think at this point that with Crimea joining Russia. The question is "Is Russia finished in Crimea. The Russian Federation could be looking to gain other states with Russian culture such as Transnistria in Moldova. With the concerns of the Ukraine leaders in Kiev it would be a growing separatist sentiment in its cities closest to its eastern border with Russia.

I think generally speaking, what this is is indicative of a power vacuum that is (very) slowly being filled after the collapse of the USSR.

The West attempted to utilize its "democratic self-determinism" model of co-optation, but evidently that did not fully catch on in the former USSR satellite states. These "independent nations" cannot survive on their own without being under the protection of the two dominant regional forces, a US-led NATO coalition, or Russia.

This isn't a loss for the West (as NATO is not any smaller regardless of what happens in the Ukraine), but it's certainly a win for Russia.

That's worth a reply! I think small nations can remain independent if the superpowers have no strategic interest in them. Strategic interests leading to political and economic interests of course.

Agree.

And in that regard, I have to disagree with you that there was no loss to the US with Crimea choosing Russia's sphere of influence. Just as Kosovo was a loss to Russia.

I see what you're saying. All I was saying was that the Crimea was not really under Western influence beforehand, so although I agree with you on the strategic consequences of what may/may not occur there and that on a relativistic basis the US may now have a weaker hand vis a vis Russia, looking at the static numbers, the US's position did not change, whereas Russia's position obviously benefited.

Do you think for one minute that either the US or Russia was interested in the Crimean peninsula strictly on moral grounds?

I believe "morality" and "politics" are mutually exclusive, unless you consider self-interest to be a moral position. Still, that would condone anything, as long as it makes one's position better...it would condone genocide, torture, etc.

No disagreement with you whatsoever in that post. You've a smart man in my opinion, so far at least. And I agree that morality and politics are mutually exclusive in that at least rational politicians consider themselves to be morally correct.

However! There are instance of irrational politicians who spout 'feel good' nonsense while knowing it's only intended to attract uninformed and less intelligent people.

examples: Maybe we shouldn't go there right now wile we're agreeing on so much!
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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3/25/2014 6:39:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/25/2014 1:30:52 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/25/2014 1:12:06 PM, wrichcirw wrote:

...morality and politics are mutually exclusive in that at least rational politicians consider themselves to be morally correct.

I will simply point out that this is simply not consistent. If morality and politics are mutually exclusive, than a rational politician's position would not have any relevance to morality.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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3/27/2014 12:57:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The latest development is that the US has declared the annexation of the Crimea illegal.

I don't know if that includes Iraq too and about 30 other countries the US has waged war with since WW2 or not because none were mentioned..

It's uncertain whether Russia has noticed yet and whether or not they will give the Crimea back to the Ukraine's terrorists provisional gov?
ararmer1919
Posts: 362
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3/27/2014 2:41:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/27/2014 12:57:54 PM, monty1 wrote:
The latest development is that the US has declared the annexation of the Crimea illegal.

I don't know if that includes Iraq too and about 30 other countries the US has waged war with since WW2 or not because none were mentioned..

It's uncertain whether Russia has noticed yet and whether or not they will give the Crimea back to the Ukraine's terrorists provisional gov?

Holy crap. Really? The UN declared the annexation illegal. Not just the US. In case you weren't aware only about three countries in the world aren't pissed off at Russia right now over this. And you probably didn't know that YOUR country is now the most likely to get militarily involved in this matter, not the US.

And guy are you talking about Iraq and "30 other wars the US has waged". What do these have to do with Crimeas annexation being dubbed illegal by the UN?
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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3/27/2014 2:51:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/27/2014 2:41:40 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 3/27/2014 12:57:54 PM, monty1 wrote:
The latest development is that the US has declared the annexation of the Crimea illegal.

I don't know if that includes Iraq too and about 30 other countries the US has waged war with since WW2 or not because none were mentioned..

It's uncertain whether Russia has noticed yet and whether or not they will give the Crimea back to the Ukraine's terrorists provisional gov?

Holy crap. Really? The UN declared the annexation illegal. Not just the US. In case you weren't aware only about three countries in the world aren't pissed off at Russia right now over this. And you probably didn't know that YOUR country is now the most likely to get militarily involved in this matter, not the US.

And guy are you talking about Iraq and "30 other wars the US has waged". What do these have to do with Crimeas annexation being dubbed illegal by the UN?

ARe you really totally unaware that the U.S attempted to annex the Crimea in 1957? Is that the reason why you have been so unapologetically vocal on this issue? Were you even born in 1963 when the U.S. attempted to annex Taiwan?

Sheesh kid!
ararmer1919
Posts: 362
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3/27/2014 4:48:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/27/2014 2:51:38 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/27/2014 2:41:40 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 3/27/2014 12:57:54 PM, monty1 wrote:
The latest development is that the US has declared the annexation of the Crimea illegal.

I don't know if that includes Iraq too and about 30 other countries the US has waged war with since WW2 or not because none were mentioned..

It's uncertain whether Russia has noticed yet and whether or not they will give the Crimea back to the Ukraine's terrorists provisional gov?

Holy crap. Really? The UN declared the annexation illegal. Not just the US. In case you weren't aware only about three countries in the world aren't pissed off at Russia right now over this. And you probably didn't know that YOUR country is now the most likely to get militarily involved in this matter, not the US.

And guy are you talking about Iraq and "30 other wars the US has waged". What do these have to do with Crimeas annexation being dubbed illegal by the UN?

ARe you really totally unaware that the U.S attempted to annex the Crimea in 1957? Is that the reason why you have been so unapologetically vocal on this issue? Were you even born in 1963 when the U.S. attempted to annex Taiwan?

Sheesh kid!

Lmfao. Both of these statements are unbelievably false.
Sheesh kid.
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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3/27/2014 5:29:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/27/2014 4:48:41 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 3/27/2014 2:51:38 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/27/2014 2:41:40 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 3/27/2014 12:57:54 PM, monty1 wrote:
The latest development is that the US has declared the annexation of the Crimea illegal.

I don't know if that includes Iraq too and about 30 other countries the US has waged war with since WW2 or not because none were mentioned..

It's uncertain whether Russia has noticed yet and whether or not they will give the Crimea back to the Ukraine's terrorists provisional gov?

Holy crap. Really? The UN declared the annexation illegal. Not just the US. In case you weren't aware only about three countries in the world aren't pissed off at Russia right now over this. And you probably didn't know that YOUR country is now the most likely to get militarily involved in this matter, not the US.

And guy are you talking about Iraq and "30 other wars the US has waged". What do these have to do with Crimeas annexation being dubbed illegal by the UN?

ARe you really totally unaware that the U.S attempted to annex the Crimea in 1957? Is that the reason why you have been so unapologetically vocal on this issue? Were you even born in 1963 when the U.S. attempted to annex Taiwan?

Sheesh kid!

Lmfao. Both of these statements are unbelievably false.
Sheesh kid.

Are you really so stupid as to now know that the U.S attempted to annex Ukraine? Would you like tp place a bet on it? I can prove conclusively that I'm right. You name the bet.
ararmer1919
Posts: 362
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3/27/2014 6:48:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/27/2014 5:29:10 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/27/2014 4:48:41 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 3/27/2014 2:51:38 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/27/2014 2:41:40 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 3/27/2014 12:57:54 PM, monty1 wrote:
The latest development is that the US has declared the annexation of the Crimea illegal.

I don't know if that includes Iraq too and about 30 other countries the US has waged war with since WW2 or not because none were mentioned..

It's uncertain whether Russia has noticed yet and whether or not they will give the Crimea back to the Ukraine's terrorists provisional gov?

Holy crap. Really? The UN declared the annexation illegal. Not just the US. In case you weren't aware only about three countries in the world aren't pissed off at Russia right now over this. And you probably didn't know that YOUR country is now the most likely to get militarily involved in this matter, not the US.

And guy are you talking about Iraq and "30 other wars the US has waged". What do these have to do with Crimeas annexation being dubbed illegal by the UN?

ARe you really totally unaware that the U.S attempted to annex the Crimea in 1957? Is that the reason why you have been so unapologetically vocal on this issue? Were you even born in 1963 when the U.S. attempted to annex Taiwan?

Sheesh kid!

Lmfao. Both of these statements are unbelievably false.
Sheesh kid.

Are you really so stupid as to now know that the U.S attempted to annex Ukraine? Would you like tp place a bet on it? I can prove conclusively that I'm right. You name the bet.

Your balls.
ararmer1919
Posts: 362
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3/27/2014 6:48:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/27/2014 5:29:10 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/27/2014 4:48:41 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 3/27/2014 2:51:38 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/27/2014 2:41:40 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 3/27/2014 12:57:54 PM, monty1 wrote:
The latest development is that the US has declared the annexation of the Crimea illegal.

I don't know if that includes Iraq too and about 30 other countries the US has waged war with since WW2 or not because none were mentioned..

It's uncertain whether Russia has noticed yet and whether or not they will give the Crimea back to the Ukraine's terrorists provisional gov?

Holy crap. Really? The UN declared the annexation illegal. Not just the US. In case you weren't aware only about three countries in the world aren't pissed off at Russia right now over this. And you probably didn't know that YOUR country is now the most likely to get militarily involved in this matter, not the US.

And guy are you talking about Iraq and "30 other wars the US has waged". What do these have to do with Crimeas annexation being dubbed illegal by the UN?

ARe you really totally unaware that the U.S attempted to annex the Crimea in 1957? Is that the reason why you have been so unapologetically vocal on this issue? Were you even born in 1963 when the U.S. attempted to annex Taiwan?

Sheesh kid!

Lmfao. Both of these statements are unbelievably false.
Sheesh kid.

Are you really so stupid as to now know that the U.S attempted to annex Ukraine? Would you like tp place a bet on it? I can prove conclusively that I'm right. You name the bet.

Or whatever. I don't really care what cause I'll win.
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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3/27/2014 9:30:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/27/2014 6:48:49 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 3/27/2014 5:29:10 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/27/2014 4:48:41 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 3/27/2014 2:51:38 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 3/27/2014 2:41:40 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 3/27/2014 12:57:54 PM, monty1 wrote:
The latest development is that the US has declared the annexation of the Crimea illegal.

I don't know if that includes Iraq too and about 30 other countries the US has waged war with since WW2 or not because none were mentioned..

It's uncertain whether Russia has noticed yet and whether or not they will give the Crimea back to the Ukraine's terrorists provisional gov?

Holy crap. Really? The UN declared the annexation illegal. Not just the US. In case you weren't aware only about three countries in the world aren't pissed off at Russia right now over this. And you probably didn't know that YOUR country is now the most likely to get militarily involved in this matter, not the US.

And guy are you talking about Iraq and "30 other wars the US has waged". What do these have to do with Crimeas annexation being dubbed illegal by the UN?

ARe you really totally unaware that the U.S attempted to annex the Crimea in 1957? Is that the reason why you have been so unapologetically vocal on this issue? Were you even born in 1963 when the U.S. attempted to annex Taiwan?

Sheesh kid!

Lmfao. Both of these statements are unbelievably false.
Sheesh kid.

Are you really so stupid as to now know that the U.S attempted to annex Ukraine? Would you like tp place a bet on it? I can prove conclusively that I'm right. You name the bet.

Or whatever. I don't really care what cause I'll win.

Will you promise to leave this forum forever if you don't win? C'mon mutt, put reputation where your bad breeding is.