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InsertNameHere
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1/27/2010 11:04:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm just curious as to what DDO's views are on the Palestinian/Israeli conflict as I have been pretty much going crazy these last few days arguing with a zionist. I'm obviously Pro-Palestine and generally in favour of the two-state solution. However, with the current Israeli regime and Hamas involved I don't see that as a possible solution anytime soon as I get the impression both sides are trying to wipe the other out. So yea, what are your thoughts on the conflict?
Volkov
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1/27/2010 11:13:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
You're completely right in saying that with the current Israeli administration and Hamas, the chance of a two-state solution progressing is nigh impossible.

But, my view is one similar to yours - I favour a two-state solution, though I am pretty fond of Israel as a state, and would probably support its existence over a Palestinian one if it came down to one or the other. Not because I'm a Zionist, but because I view Israel as a more stable and democratically-inclined entity. Plus, I love Israeli music.

But, fortunately it doesn't come down to that. A two-state solution would by far be the most palatable of any. The problem is, though, the fact that these Israeli settlements are now essentially apart of the landscape, and there are people that live there; what do you do with them? It seems too harsh to simply evict them, especially some of the older ones. And what of Jerusalem? Not just East, but the entire city? The population is pretty mixed and there are so many landmarks and holy places, it will verge on impossible to deal with it easily. I liked the original UN plan, but what are the chances of going back to that?

There are so many issues with a two-state plan that it will get very hot, very fast. It will take time and willing participation, and I wouldn't blame either side for getting fed up.
InsertNameHere
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1/27/2010 11:17:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Yes, there's permanent settlements there, but what about the Palestinians who have already been forcibly relocated by Israeli authorities? Many of them are stuck in refugee camps.
Volkov
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1/27/2010 11:22:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 11:17:32 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Yes, there's permanent settlements there, but what about the Palestinians who have already been forcibly relocated by Israeli authorities? Many of them are stuck in refugee camps.

That is something that can no longer occur. I pointed out the older ones because of the time they've been here - some are nearly 40 years old. You can't go back on those ones now. However, the more recent ones, where the refugees are still out in camps and the paint is still fresh - those should be torn down and those evicted compensated - Israeli or Palestinian.

Plus, I think that if the Israelis were truly interested in finding a solution, a reparations program would be instituted, kind of like what we've done here with residential schools and the like. But, the possibility of this occurring is slim, either way you slice it. It might be bargained for - for example, reparations in exchange for leaving the settlements where they are - but I doubt it.
Zetsubou
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1/27/2010 11:28:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm indifferent or as Anti Zionists call it, "Blind".

Israel has claim in the West Middle eastern because of Zionism. It comes at the expense of Philistines, Canaanites and Palestinians. Still, don't expect them to leave or make a Palestinian state in the future, Israel has created it's permanent state and it's not changing.

To create a Palestinian sate you need National backing of at least the EU or America. Unfortunate for you Zionism is strong in the USA; though declining no one is willing to force the state in existence. Wait for Progressive/Liberal America Circa 2050; that is if China hasn't become a Superpower.

Israel – Space stations, Nuclear weapons, Eastern Settlements in development.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Volkov
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1/27/2010 11:32:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 11:28:48 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
that is if China hasn't become a Superpower.

What does China's status have to do with anything?
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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1/27/2010 11:35:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 11:22:31 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 1/27/2010 11:17:32 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Yes, there's permanent settlements there, but what about the Palestinians who have already been forcibly relocated by Israeli authorities? Many of them are stuck in refugee camps.

That is something that can no longer occur. I pointed out the older ones because of the time they've been here - some are nearly 40 years old. You can't go back on those ones now. However, the more recent ones, where the refugees are still out in camps and the paint is still fresh - those should be torn down and those evicted compensated - Israeli or Palestinian.

Plus, I think that if the Israelis were truly interested in finding a solution, a reparations program would be instituted, kind of like what we've done here with residential schools and the like. But, the possibility of this occurring is slim, either way you slice it. It might be bargained for - for example, reparations in exchange for leaving the settlements where they are - but I doubt it.

Basically - Israel isn't going to do anything and no one is willing to help the Palestinians, at least anyone with enough force or care.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
InsertNameHere
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1/27/2010 11:35:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 11:28:48 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
I'm indifferent or as Anti Zionists call it, "Blind".

Israel has claim in the West Middle eastern because of Zionism. It comes at the expense of Philistines, Canaanites and Palestinians. Still, don't expect them to leave or make a Palestinian state in the future, Israel has created it's permanent state and it's not changing.

To create a Palestinian sate you need National backing of at least the EU or America. Unfortunate for you Zionism is strong in the USA; though declining no one is willing to force the state in existence. Wait for Progressive/Liberal America Circa 2050; that is if China hasn't become a Superpower.

Israel – Space stations, Nuclear weapons, Eastern Settlements in development.

Well at least you believe that Palestinians actually exist. The zionist I have been arguing with completely denies their existance and tosses me off as a terrorist supporter since that's all Palestinians are apperently, "Arab terrorists occupying Jewish land". I'm not sure if all zionists are that extreme or not.
Zetsubou
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1/27/2010 11:40:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 11:32:57 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 1/27/2010 11:28:48 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
that is if China hasn't become a Superpower.

What does China's status have to do with anything?

China is the only thing stopping Liberal/Progressive America. America is becoming more Liberal in the Social and Political sense. If China become a threat China will delay that or at least become a lesser Superpower.

ANYWAY, America will have more Problems that creating another debt ridden country.

Don't get it? Never mind it's a self mad theory.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Zetsubou
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1/27/2010 11:41:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 11:35:47 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 1/27/2010 11:28:48 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
I'm indifferent or as Anti Zionists call it, "Blind".

Israel has claim in the West Middle eastern because of Zionism. It comes at the expense of Philistines, Canaanites and Palestinians. Still, don't expect them to leave or make a Palestinian state in the future, Israel has created it's permanent state and it's not changing.

To create a Palestinian sate you need National backing of at least the EU or America. Unfortunate for you Zionism is strong in the USA; though declining no one is willing to force the state in existence. Wait for Progressive/Liberal America Circa 2050; that is if China hasn't become a Superpower.

Israel – Space stations, Nuclear weapons, Eastern Settlements in development.

Well at least you believe that Palestinians actually exist. The zionist I have been arguing with completely denies their existance and tosses me off as a terrorist supporter since that's all Palestinians are apperently, "Arab terrorists occupying Jewish land". I'm not sure if all zionists are that extreme or not.

Banker, rite? - "Islamospam", lol

--------

Correction to my Last post - "mad" = "made"
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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1/27/2010 11:43:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 11:40:17 PM, Zetsubou wrote:

China is the only thing stopping Liberal/Progressive America. America is becoming more Liberal in the Social and Political sense. If China become a threat China will delay that or at least become a lesser Superpower.

ANYWAY, America will have more Problems that creating another debt ridden country.

Don't get it? Never mind it's a self mad theory.

REDO:

China is the only thing stopping Liberal/Progressive America. America is becoming more Liberal in the Social and Political sense. If China become a threat to America China will delay the Liberal phase.

ANYWAY, America will have more Problems that creating another debt ridden country.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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1/27/2010 11:44:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 11:40:17 PM, Zetsubou wrote::
China is the only thing stopping Liberal/Progressive America. America is becoming more Liberal in the Social and Political sense. If China become a threat China will delay that or at least become a lesser Superpower.

Don't get it? Never mind it's a self mad theory.

That doesn't some completely crazy, though I think there is a lot more to it than that. China isn't on the minds of the American populace - its economy and its overburderned government are. The US has always and will probably always be reluctantly liberal - that is simply the culture. I don't think China, or the rise of any threat, truly changes that much.
InsertNameHere
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1/27/2010 11:46:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 11:41:57 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 1/27/2010 11:35:47 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 1/27/2010 11:28:48 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
I'm indifferent or as Anti Zionists call it, "Blind".

Israel has claim in the West Middle eastern because of Zionism. It comes at the expense of Philistines, Canaanites and Palestinians. Still, don't expect them to leave or make a Palestinian state in the future, Israel has created it's permanent state and it's not changing.

To create a Palestinian sate you need National backing of at least the EU or America. Unfortunate for you Zionism is strong in the USA; though declining no one is willing to force the state in existence. Wait for Progressive/Liberal America Circa 2050; that is if China hasn't become a Superpower.

Israel – Space stations, Nuclear weapons, Eastern Settlements in development.

Well at least you believe that Palestinians actually exist. The zionist I have been arguing with completely denies their existance and tosses me off as a terrorist supporter since that's all Palestinians are apperently, "Arab terrorists occupying Jewish land". I'm not sure if all zionists are that extreme or not.

Banker, rite? - "Islamospam", lol

--------

Correction to my Last post - "mad" = "made"

Actually it's not Banker(surprisingly). It's somebody I know outside of DDO. lol
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/28/2010 6:46:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Israel had no real claim to the land, the fact that Britain appeased Zionist sentiment in such a blind, inconsistent and cowardly fashion has to go down as a major mistake of history.

However that is irrelevant, the cost of evicting them far exceeds any benefits. It's not realistically going to happen short of some sort of apocalyptic scenario.

However it is not acceptable that Israel remains the controlling power in the west bank and the gaza strip (yes I do mean that), yet denies the people the people their basic human rights.

These two areas need to be either fully annexed into Israel, ceded to their neighbours (Gaza strip to Egypt, West bank to Jordan) or granted full independence as one or more Palestinian states.

Israel is not going to fully annex these regions because the resulting demographics would destroy Israel as a Jewish state. I don't know if Egypt would accept the Gaza strip but I doubt the Palestinians would want that considering how complicit Egypt has been in their persecution. Jordan probably does not want the west bank due to past bad blood, they do not actually care much for the Palestinians.

That leads to full independence, so do we have a single disjointed state with no land bridge between the Gaza strip and the West Bank? Or do we turn these into two countries?

With the amount of compensation they are owed from 60 years of illegal occupation and numerous terrorist attacks it should be possible to create viable economies.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Volkov
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1/28/2010 6:57:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
You make good points Cerebral, but as you said - none of it matters. The chances of reparations coming from the Israelis is slim. The chance of the older settlements coming down is slimmer still. And until Gaza and the West Bank can show themselves to be secure, subservient friends of Israel, their independence will not come. Egypt and Jordan will continue to back Israel while showing ceremonial support for Palestinians, and the US and Europe will continue to be ineffective in their attempts to push the two-state solution forward so long as people like Netanyahu and Bloody Lieberman continue to be anywhere near the reigns of power. In my opinion, any chance of progress on the two-state solution died when Kadima lost the election in '08.

People, especially pro-Palestinians, need to realize this. Most don't, for some reason. They expect change yet refuse to see the complex issues and justifiable excuses that Israel does sometimes give for stalling progress - like security. The only path people can forge ahead on right now is in regards to human rights, and that is only because the Israelis seem willing to work on that issue. But everything else, I think, is too high up a fruit to reach for right now.
mattrodstrom
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1/28/2010 9:32:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/27/2010 11:04:25 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
So yea, what are your thoughts on the conflict?

We (the US) ought to deny any more funding/tech help, period, for Israel IF they don't control their people in building new settlements in Palestinian areas.

We should also make it known that their speak of a "Jewish State" is an idea that goes against our ideals and weakens our relationship, and makes them (in some sense) akin the system of the Nazi regime, and other sources of state discrimination, from which they sought refuge in the creation of Israel.

I don't think "Israel" should ever been created by the Brits (with the support of American zionist protestants) but it was, and it is now the home to many people, And a representative democracy.

We should support them so far as our ideals of Democracy and Liberty are shared, but threaten/begin to withdraw support if and when those ideals are compromised.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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1/28/2010 9:34:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/28/2010 9:32:31 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:

We (the US) ought to deny any more funding/tech help, period, for Israel IF they don't control their people in building new settlements in Palestinian areas.

b/c this serves to undermine any process of cooperation, and prevents any level of trust from forming
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
banker
Posts: 1,370
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1/28/2010 9:52:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
as libs we need to focus on saving palestinians from their real enemies..!!

if your humanitarians and look to salve the crisis
like this

copy and paste in your browser
www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1M4eH9Kk7I
i ask you to help save palestinians

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...

Ilibs vote for a gov that helps its citizens to own homes with low rates protect a gov in gaza that's bringing the war to homes of thier citizens building rockets for jihad instead of home programs for families

TELL LIBS TO SUPPORT ISREALS EFFORT TO LIBERATE GAZA VICTIMS FROM HAMAS GOV

libs vote for a gov that helps its citizens to get good education and playgrounds for kids are protecting a gov in gaza training kids to kill infidels and get women as objects in reward libs protect hamas putting rocket launchers in schools

TELL LIBS TO SUPPORT ISRAELS EFFORT TO LIBERATE GAZA VICTIMS FROM HAMAS GOV

libs request gov to give equal health care to all force gaza victims into hamas gov which is bringing war to hospital after making it its official headquarters

TELL LIBS TO SUPPORT ISREALS EFFORT TO LIBERATE GAZA VICTIMS FROM HAMAS GOV
reply
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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1/28/2010 9:56:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Banker, I usually tolerate your antics, but with this post, you definitely crossed the line.

Your goal, apparently, is that in order to protect the Palestinians, we must oust a democratically elected administration, give Israel a blank check to essentially rape and pillage the Gaza strip, and then allow them to continue on with the settlements and every other thing that hampers progress that actual people - liberal and conservative - want to address.

You are by far the most dangerous person here to Palestinians. For shame.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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1/28/2010 9:57:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
My position is that I am in favor of both Israel and Palestine fighting each other until and unless one of them becomes less statist.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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1/28/2010 10:08:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/28/2010 9:57:54 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
My position is that I am in favor of both Israel and Palestine fighting each other until and unless one of them becomes less statist.

You know that won't happen at all, right?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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1/28/2010 10:11:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/28/2010 10:08:46 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 1/28/2010 9:57:54 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
My position is that I am in favor of both Israel and Palestine fighting each other until and unless one of them becomes less statist.

You know that won't happen at all, right?

I don't know for sure. But the odds are rather low. Which means I'm in favor of a lot of fighting for quite a while. :)
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/28/2010 10:15:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/28/2010 9:57:54 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
My position is that I am in favor of both Israel and Palestine fighting each other until and unless one of them becomes less statist.

Even though they are fighting for absurd reasons and causing the loss of innocent life?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
banker
Posts: 1,370
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1/28/2010 10:17:04 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/28/2010 9:56:13 AM, Volkov wrote:
Banker, I usually tolerate your antics, but with this post, you definitely crossed the line.

Your goal, apparently, is that in order to protect the Palestinians, we must oust a democratically elected administration, give Israel a blank check to essentially rape and pillage the Gaza strip, and then allow them to continue on with the settlements and every other thing that hampers progress that actual people - liberal and conservative - want to address.

You are by far the most dangerous person here to Palestinians. For shame.

great rant now respont to points...!!
and explain how some thugs could essentially rape and pillage the Gaza strip if their ellected..?

how gangsters could essentially rape and pillage the Gaza strip place kids and sick people on front lines as long as thier not israelies..?

why is the issue of ellections and race more important then justice for the gaza victims?
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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1/28/2010 10:25:15 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/28/2010 10:17:04 AM, banker wrote:
great rant now respont to points...!!
and explain how some thugs could essentially rape and pillage the Gaza strip if their ellected..?

Show me evidence that Hamas is doing this, please.

how gangsters could essentially rape and pillage the Gaza strip place kids and sick people on front lines as long as thier not israelies..?

This makes no sense... why would Hamas care if they put Israelis on the front lines? Do you even know what you're talking about?

why is the issue of ellections and race more important then justice for the gaza victims?

You have a very perverted sense of justice, banker.
banker
Posts: 1,370
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1/28/2010 10:56:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/28/2010 10:25:15 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 1/28/2010 10:17:04 AM, banker wrote:
great rant now respont to points...!!
and explain how some thugs could essentially rape and pillage the Gaza strip if their ellected..?

Show me evidence that Hamas is doing this, please.
watch the vids please
but here is more
www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1M4eH9Kk7I

how gangsters could essentially rape and pillage the Gaza strip place kids and sick people on front lines as long as thier not israelies..?


This makes no sense... why would Hamas care if they put Israelis on the front lines? Do you even know what you're talking about?
hamas is actions is not limited to only thos sense making ones,gaza kids are placed in front lines which is not only stupid, its cruel...!! but as long its not done by isreal your indifrance to kids geting killed...!!

why is the issue of ellections and race more important then justice for the gaza victims?

You have a very perverted sense of justice, banker.
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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1/28/2010 11:00:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Also, the children are indoctrinated from a young age. I have seen some of the propaganda Hamas uses on children. It's clearly Anti-Semitic and teaches the children to be the same.
banker
Posts: 1,370
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1/28/2010 11:13:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/28/2010 10:59:03 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Banker, you do realize there's children fighting on both sides, right?

interesting is this what your talking about?

http://faithfreedom.org...
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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1/28/2010 11:19:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 1/28/2010 11:00:13 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Also, the children are indoctrinated from a young age. I have seen some of the propaganda Hamas uses on children. It's clearly Anti-Semitic and teaches the children to be the same.

Of course it's bloody antisemitic, their country has been under assault/occupation for sixty years by people pretending to Jews. How many Palestinian children don't know someone that has been murdered by the IDF, or denied basic health care?

A great sodding wall was built, in many cases on Palestinian orchards, on one side is a first world economy, on the other you can't even be assured of clean drinking water.

It would be a miracle if Hamas did not use antisemitic propaganda, a miracle if the children were not antisemitic.

It may not be be right, but at least have the basic empathy to understand it.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.