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Why Prostitution Should Never be Legalized.

GWL-CPA
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3/29/2014 5:11:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Part I

I actually tried to debate this topic on TV with John Stossel; but, of course he refused my request. I wrote a long factual piece on this; and, of course, Stossel never responded.

John is a staunch born with that proverbial silver spoon in mouth Libertarian that was fired from ABC News' 20/20 for misreporting and distorting the facts (basically lying), but that is the topic of another discussion.

ABC 20/20's John Stossel Admits Fraud
http://www.dontwastearizona.org...

Even Bill O'Reilly (the O"Reilly Factor at FOX) disagrees with Stossel on legalizing prostitution and drugs in the USA.

One fact being overlooked by the legalize prostitution crowd and debaters at this site is that in the USA, 81% of the population is against legalizing prostitution - 87% of the women and 74% of the men.

So what you few DDO folks think about legalizing prostitution is irrelevant. You are all ill-informed.
http://prostitution.procon.org...

Even if all 144,475 DDO members agreed that prostitution should be legalized, which is highly unlikely, that is only 0.0006117 or 0.061168% of the total population in the USA that is 18 years of age or older per the 2010 Census (you need to subtract the % under 18 per Census - 23.5% from 100% and then multiply the result of 76.5% times the estimated 2010 population of 308,747,716.
http://quickfacts.census.gov...
http://www.debate.org...

DDO has "The Big Issues" section with 48 questions. Why do you think DDO does not have a question "Should Female Prostitution be legal?" One reason is because it is very sexist and chauvinistic.

A DDO member brian_eggleston has a poll.

"Which crime should be legalized?"

There have been 51 votes, 23 votes for Prostitution or 0.0001592 or 0.015920% out of 144,475 DDO members. Again, not sure what silly polls like these prove.
http://www.debate.org...

Then there is a poll by Mikal titled

"Should prostitution be legalized? - To be honest, it already is in a way but should we make it official."

This poll has had 52 voters; 33 said yes or 63% and 19 or 37% said no. A poll of 52 members at a site that has mainly teenagers proves nothing. And, where in the world in the USA is it already legal except in 19 brothels in 8 counties in Nevada that represent only 10% of the total population, "to be honest"? "To be honest," how do DDO members make anything official? Like DDO is a barometer for World opinions, or even opinions in America.

All you misguided DDO legalize-prostitution folks should run for Congress (Federal or State) or for the USA Presidency, assuming you are old enough. Let's see how far you get on a platform that includes legalizing prostitution.

A reality check is seriously needed by you young immature folks.

I am not sure what a poll where only 52 members out of 144,475 total members at DDO, where 33 members or 0.000228 or 0.0228413% vote yes proves. What does that prove?

I think it proves that there are a lot of male chauvinist pigs at this site. I guess you could conclude that very few members at DDO vote on polls, which would be a valid conclusion based on the number who actually voted.

So, the polls about legalizing prostitution at DDO prove nothing.

http://www.debate.org...

Again, one fact being overlooked by the legalize prostitution debaters at this site and John Stossel is that in the USA, 81% of the population is against legalizing prostitution - 87% of the women and 74% of the men.
http://prostitution.procon.org...

Assuming you could convince most Americans to legalize prostitution, which will never happen, it would only work if there were well regulated brothels with mandatory weekly testing for STDs and monthly testing for HIV, which is how it works in Nevada.

There are only about 800 registered prostitutes in 8 counties in Nevada where it is legal - the populations in those counties represent only 10% of the total population in Nevada. At any given time only about 200 prostitutes are actually working.

It is difficult to track 200 to 800 prostitutes in the 8 small counties in Nevada to make sure they are tested weekly for STDs and monthly for HIV. The idea that you could have tens of thousands of brothels and millions of prostitutes tested weekly and monthly across the USA is insane. You would have to hire hundreds of thousands more police and administrative staff just to keep up with the paperwork. And, who would be verifying the results? This would be an administrative and legal nightmare. Who would be liable if someone get an STD or HIV? Would the brothel, doctor administering the test, the police administration or the police, the prostitute or the patron or would all be liable? Anyway, it ain't ever going to happen. So, it is just meaningless bantering at this site and from morons like John Stossel.

One thing that has not been mentioned about prostitution in brothels in Nevada is that condom use is mandatory for all forms of sex, including oral. "And before any sexual activity takes place behind closed doors, males go through a quick visual screening, called a "DC," or "dick check."
Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com...

Most men in the USA that use prostitutes want the woman to swallow; it is an ego trip; and, they don't want to use condoms for vaginal sex. So, legalizing prostitution will not work for most men. They will still go to illegal prostitutes to get what they want. Most women who want to earn a few extra bucks will not go through the background checks and medical tests required in Nevada. So, legalizing prostitution will have almost no effect on illegal prostitution, as is the case in Nevada and the rest of the World.

"Prostitution is legal in Nevada only at licensed and regulated brothels. Registered female brothel prostitutes must be tested weekly for gonorrhea and Chlamydia trachomatis and monthly for HIV and syphilis. Testing of male prostitutes is also required. Condoms must be used. If a customer becomes infected with HIV after a sex worker tests positive, the brothel owner can be held liable. Street walking and other forms of sex for money are illegal just like everywhere else."
http://renotahoe.about.com...
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years."

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Mark Twain
GWL-CPA
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3/29/2014 5:33:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Part II

Most local citizenry in the counties out in the desert in Nevada don't go to the brothels because they are too expensive; and they don't need to or want to. Whether the rates of STDs and HIVs, drug use, and murder in those small communities are lower than they would be without legalized prostitution is very hard to determine, since that data is not published, or if published, it is hard to find on the internet. And, there is no logical reason to assume that having brothels somehow affects those statistics in those small communities or counties. Since condom use is mandatory at the brothels, I sure hope very few get STDs or HIV from prostitutes at the brothels. Saying that those brothels would lower the drug use and murder rate in those communities is silly and cannot be substantiated. Hopefully, in those brothels prostitutes and patrons are not allowed to do drugs while on the premises, and patrons are not allowed to physically abuse workers. And, there are security personnel in those brothels to protect the workers.

As of August 2013 there are 19 legal brothels in Nevada, employing about 200 females at any given time. Those 19 brothels are in 8 counties. The total population in those 8 counties only represents 10% of the total population of Nevada.

Las Vegas and Reno residents have voted against legalizing prostitution and brothels. Again, most people in the USA, especially women, do not want prostitution legalized.
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Most cities and communities in the USA do not even allow strip clubs, sex stores/ porn shops anywhere but in outlying areas, except maybe "Lovers Lane" and "Frederick"s of Hollywood."

Where I live in Illinois, strip clubs and sex stores are closed all the time by the citizens of those communities who get fed up with the crime that goes on around them.

I would have to drive over 35 to 50 miles to find a "Lovers Lane" and "Frederick's of Hollywood" to buy my wife a sexy nightie. If I were so inclined, the closest gentlemen's club (nudie bar) is at least 50 miles away out in an unincorporated area; the citizens in the town next to mine closed the one that was 6 miles away in 2003, which could not sell booze because it allowed full nudity. In Illinois, a full nudie bar cannot sell any booze, not even beer. Actually, this is the law in most states, including Nevada.
https://www.tuscl.net...

Most Americans, especially women, don't want that crap in their neighborhoods. For example, there are 68 gentlemen's clubs in Illinois in 34 cities, and most of these are in rural areas. There are 2,731 local governments (municipalities and townships) in 102 counties in Illinois. So, about 1.24% allow some form of a nudity bar or strip club.
https://www.tuscl.net...

Just because a bunch of kids or adult libertarians at this site think it is cool, or in some distorted convoluted mentality, somehow a constitutional right doesn't make it so.

Let's take one of Stossel's current rants about legalizing prostitution, and how it is just another example of how Big Government is interfering with free enterprise. Stossel states on "Bill O"Reilly Surprisingly Not a Fan of Legalizing Prostitution" show that prostitution is legal in "most of Nevada." He brings up legalizing Prostitution again on his "John Stossel's Illegal Everything" show that aired last weekend.
http://www.mediaite.com...
http://www.savevid.com...

I am going to demonstrate how Stossel misrepresents the facts on the issues he feels are too big government by addressing his legalizing prostitution rant.

Stossel is a great grandstander, but his arguments are usually very shallow and lack the facts. I have sent counterarguments on many issues to Stossel and requested that he read them on Fox and that I be allowed to debate him on his show. Of course, I knew that would never happen. Why, he knows his positions would not hold up to an honest debate by someone like me who has researched the subject and has all the facts.

Stossel's primary tools of persuasion are anecdotal evidence, fact distortion and ignoring facts that negate his opinions. Unlike Paul Harvey, Stossel will never tell you "The Rest of the Story."

http://www.mediaite.com...
http://www.savevid.com...

Some obvious facts overlooked by Stossel:

1. - Only counties in Nevada where populations are less than 400,000 can have prostitution in brothels.
2. - There were only 28 brothels in Nevada in 2008 and all were located in rural counties.
3. - Brothels are not allowed in Clark Country where Vegas is located and Washoe County where Reno is located. These two counties account for 88% of Nevada"s population.
4. - The closest brothel to Vegas is about a 1 hour drive.
5. - There are only about 800 women registered to work as prostitutes, and many of the 28 brothels will only have 8-15 girls on call at any given time. The Moonlite Bunny Ranch that Stossel featured has from 40 to 50 girls on call and is the biggest brothel with 36 private rooms.
6. - The going rate for an average looking prostitute is $100 to $250 for 15 minutes to an hour - but that is only the basic, which is rarely what you pay. The gorgeous women Stossel had on his program go from $1,000 to $2,500 per hour, which usually only movie and sport super stars, and the very wealthy can afford.
7. - The brothel industry in Nevada is well regulated, which would appear go against Stossel's rants against government control.
8. - All registered prostitutes must fill out applications with the county they work in. Criminal background checks are done, including sending fingerprints to the FBI. This becomes part of a permanent record and can be held against women if they go for employment at regular jobs, e.g., payroll clerk, secretary, bank teller, etc. This is cited as one of the reasons why many illegal prostitutes will never consider becoming legal prostitutes. When they quite being prostitutes, no real employer will hire them if they know they were prostitutes.
9. - Legal prostitutes are required to be tested weekly by a cervical specimen, and by blood test monthly - this is costly, an administrative burden , and the cost is paid for by the prostitutes.
10. - These prostitutes are independent contractors, and they split 50/50 the money from the tricks/johns with the brothel owners. The brothel owners do not provide health insurance, vacation, sick leave, etc. They must stay at the brothels from 8 to 12 hours or more per day, many stay overnight for 9 days straight. By legal definition, they should be treated as employees, but the brothels owners get away with breaking many employment laws, which the local country law enforcement could care less about. There is apparently a lot of cronyism with local county law enforcement.

They need unions.
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years."

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Mark Twain
Hematite12
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3/29/2014 5:45:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I don't think anyone on this website who posts an opinion thinks that they will change policy.

I don't understand why the fact that the current system probably won't change somehow invalidates the view of people on this website.

Note: I am undecided on the issue, just unclear on what you are saying.
GWL-CPA
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3/29/2014 5:56:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Part III

These prostitutes should join a union and demand that they get 75% of the fee, since they do all the work. Would local politicians allow that? It is a big joke, not only in Nevada but in the World where legal brothels are allowed.

The women always get screwed literally and figuratively by the men in society.


But, what is the rest of the story?

Well, I am not sure how Stossel is defining "most of Nevada." In 2008, there were 28 brothels in Nevada operating in 8 of Nevada's 16 counties or 50% of the counties, but based on population, it is less than 10% of Nevada's population. And, these brothels are usually outside the city limits of these counties in very remote desert areas.

Nevada Counties where Prostitution is illegal - by Population 2010

Carson City -55,274 - 2.0% of Nevada's total population
Clark - 1,951,269 - 72.3%
Lincoln - 5,345 - 0.2%
Washoe - 421,407 - 15.6%
Total Population where prostitution is illegal equals - 2,433,295 or 90.1% of Nevada's total population

Counties Where Prostitution is Legal in Nevada:

Churchill - 24,877or 0.9% of Nevada's Total Population
Douglas- 46,997- 1.7%
Elko - 48,818 - 1.8%
Esmeralda - 783 - 0.029%
Eureka - 1,987 - 0.1%
Humboldt - 16,528 - 0.6%
Lander - 5,775 - 0.2%
Lyon - 51,980 - 1.9%
Mineral- 4,772 - 0.2%
Nye - 43,946-1.6%
Pershing- 6,753- 0.3%
Storey- 4,010- 0.1%
White Pine - 10,030- 0.4%

Total Population of Counties in Nevada where Prostitution is Legal - - 267,256- or - 9.9%

That doesn't tell the whole story either. There are only an estimated 800 women that work legally as prostitutes in Nevada"s brothels. There are 10,000 estimated illegal prostitutes in Las Vegas.
http://abcnews.go.com...
http://www.nevadacoalition.org...

I am not sure how Stossel thinks this can done on a national level. Let's assume that there are 1-2 million women in the USA that sell sex services illegally now. How many brothels would have to be licensed in large cities like New York, Chicago, Dallas, Houston, and Los Angeles? Local governments would have to add more administrative staff, police, etc. Keeping track of the paperwork would be a nightmare. Enforcement of the requirement for weekly and monthly medical examinations would be an even bigger nightmare, not to mention the reams of paperwork that would be generated. And, finally, how likely is it that even if it were made legal in the USA, how many prostitutes would agree to be registered and work in brothels?
http://prostitution.procon.org...

Stossel's claims that the legalized brothels in Nevada have solved the problems associated with illegal prostitution, e.g., crime and STDs - sexually transmitted diseases. However, he fails to mention that the crime and STDs rates in those counties where those brothels are located were never very high or a problem. So again, he is just a big liar.

"Many have pointed out that legalized prostitution has not solved the problem of illegal prostitution, as the vast majority of women prefer to work illegally in Las Vegas and Reno, rather than being subjected to these restrictions; many prostitutes avoid the licensed brothels because they do not want to have a permanent record which can prevent them from obtaining other jobs later on, and other prostitutes are simply not eligible for being hired by these brothels (for example because of drug problems). According to a report by the U.S. State Department, 90 percent of all Nevada prostitution happens illegally in Las Vegas."
http://brothels-of-nevada.com...

Now, if you follow Stossel, you know that he is very against governmental regulation. He is a big "laissez faire" advocate, i.e. leave us be; hands off, no government intervention, a completely free market. But, that would not seem to reconcile with the very heavily regulated brothel industry in Nevada, but that is OK with Stossel. I guess this is one industry where Stossel's feels public safety is far more important than the evils of governmental regulation versus public safety issues.

Stossel forgot to mention many things and is perpetuating the myths versus the facts about Legal Prostitution, e.g., all woman can makes lots of money, prostitution is safe, prostitutes would rather work in brothels versus other jobs, prostitutes are not ashamed about being prostitutes, etc.
http://www.nevadacoalition.org...

Stossel claims that most Americans are OK with legalizing prostitution, but he does provide the source of his data to support that conclusion. A poll in Clark County, Aug 30, 2010, 64% of Las Vegas residents voted against allowing brothels in Las Vegas. As a side note, 79% of the respondents gave the thumbs-down to Dutch-style hashish and marijuana bars in Las Vegas. The article mentions Mound House country, which is where the "Moonlite Bunny Ranch is located. "Bill Thompson, a University of Nevada, Las Vegas professor who specializes in gambling studies and has observed the Las Vegas tourism market for 30 years." is quoted below.

"Legalizing local brothels and hash bars would actually hurt the city's hospitality sector, Thompson said. For one thing, forget about girlfriends and wives tolerating their boyfriends' and husbands' weekend guys' forays to a brothel-heavy Las Vegas.

Legalizing prostitution here would unequivocally place Las Vegas in the category of unacceptable places to visit, Thompson said. Besides, if prostitution could yield such a great economic boost, then Mound House would be the Nevada town that hosts 36 million visitors a year. And I think you should really consider what kind of people this would draw," Thompson said. "We don't need any more sleazy people. It would be like having an NBA All-Star Weekend here every week."
http://www.lvrj.com...

One other major point that Stossel forgot is that the majority of Americans, especially, the biggest voting bloc, the women, do not want prostitution, legal or not, despite his claims to the contrary.

Stossel seems to have overlooked how other countries that have had legalized prostitution and drugs, have changed their position and changed the laws or made it illegal.

Let"s look at other facts, "Germany legalized prostitution in 2003, but recriminalized it in 1998, after complaints that legalization had solved few of the problems it set out to address."
https://safoundation.com...

"Holland scrapping liberal policies on drugs and brothels to clean up image"
The Dutch are rethinking their famously liberal policies on legalized brothels, prostitution and soft drugs, such as magic mushrooms and cannabis, amid fears of growing crime and social decline.""
http://www.telegraph.co.uk...

I wonder why Stossel did not mention Germany or Holland. He is a master of not presenting all the facts just so he can prove his misguided positions.

If I use my wife as a barometer as to what should be done to all prostitutes and their tricks/johns married or not, well, let"s just say, it is very scary.

"And now you know " the rest of the story." (Paul Harvey)
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years."

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Mark Twain
Wocambs
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3/29/2014 6:18:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 5:33:01 PM, GWL-CPA wrote:

I would love to try and refute your argument but I can't discern one in that startling tirade featuring some excessive use of argumentum ad populum. Presumably you don't accept it when the majority wants cannabis legalised, so why so favourable of this argument against prostitution, if it's even true? lol.
thett3
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3/29/2014 6:20:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
"Let"s look at other facts, "Germany legalized prostitution in 2003, but recriminalized it in 1998, after complaints that legalization had solved few of the problems it set out to address.""

Lolwut?
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
YYW
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3/29/2014 6:21:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
That many people think something is the case does not make it the case. Similarly, that there are some bad things associated with prostitution's legalization doesn't mean that it ought to be illegal.
Tsar of DDO
GWL-CPA
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3/29/2014 6:35:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 5:45:34 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
I don't think anyone on this website who posts an opinion thinks that they will change policy.

I don't understand why the fact that the current system probably won't change somehow invalidates the view of people on this website.

Note: I am undecided on the issue, just unclear on what you are saying.

It is called reality. And, reality does matter. A poll that does not reflect reality is meaningless.

Why are you undecided?

In the USA there is no way that prostitution will be legalized.

Do you have a wife or mother, aunts, sisters, girlfriends, etc.? Go take a poll.

There is more of a chance, a slim chance, that gay marriage will be legalized in all 50 states before even one other state legalizes prostitution. Gay marriage might get a boast if somehow the Supreme Court rules that it is a civil right; but, that case has not yet been brought in front of the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court would never rule that prostitution should be legal in the USA that has to be decided by the states. And, it is my opinion that no other state is going to make it legal anytime soon, if ever.

The only reason it is legal in those counties in Nevada is because it is a old west state that had mining towns where prostitution flourished in the old west. It just won't happen anywhere else.

Again, why are you undecided, What is good about legalizing prostitution?

You do know that America is a very religious nation - 73% are Christians. All Christian churches are against legalizing prostitution.
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years."

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Mark Twain
YYW
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3/29/2014 6:37:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 6:20:51 PM, thett3 wrote:
"Let"s look at other facts, "Germany legalized prostitution in 2003, but recriminalized it in 1998, after complaints that legalization had solved few of the problems it set out to address.""

Lolwut?

They went back to the future?
Tsar of DDO
GWL-CPA
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3/29/2014 7:09:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 6:21:04 PM, YYW wrote:
That many people think something is the case does not make it the case. Similarly, that there are some bad things associated with prostitution's legalization doesn't mean that it ought to be illegal.

I respect your thoughts on that, but, a reality check is in order.

Why don't you run for congress or the Presidency on a pro legalize prostitution platform. Why doesn't Rand or Ron Paul?

I know that the Libertarian platform does say repeal all drug and prostitution laws; but, I rarely hear Rand or Ron Paul talk about that much. Texas and Kentucky are very conservative states that would never legalize prostitution. You will never hear that discussed by the Republicans. If Rand Paul does make that one of his campaign promises, he will not be nominated by the Republican Party; and he will have to run as an independent. The chances of him winning are slim to none. But, that is only half the battle.

Most people were against Slavery right before the Civil War. Guess what, slavery was abolished.

Most people in the USA, except for 11 small counties in Nevada that represent 10% of Nevada"s population, are against legalizing prostitution. Guess what, prostitution in the USA is only legal in those 11 small counties in Nevada.

Maybe you know something I don't know about public opinion in the USA.

There are many LGBT groups, e.g., GLAD and legalize pot groups, e.g., NORML that are making small inroads; and those groups now have the support of Presidents Obama and Clinton and their wives. And, Obama and Eric Holder seems to be pushing decriminalization of pot. I guess we will have to see what we see about those issues in America.

But, no past or present Presidents or their wives are pushing for the legalization of prostitution.
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years."

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Mark Twain
GWL-CPA
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3/29/2014 7:16:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 6:20:51 PM, thett3 wrote:
"Let"s look at other facts, "Germany legalized prostitution in 2003, but recriminalized it in 1998, after complaints that legalization had solved few of the problems it set out to address.""

Lolwut?

I must have had wrong information. Germany does allow it.

"Prostitution in Germany is legal, and so are brothels.[1] In 2002, the government changed the law in an effort to improve the legal situation of prostitutes. However, the social stigmatization of prostitutes persists and many prostitutes continue to lead a double life.[2] Authorities consider the common exploitation of women from Eastern Europe to be the main problem associated with the profession."
http://en.wikipedia.org...

However, legalized prostitution in Germany has had no effect on illegal prostitution. And, many prostitutes in Germany, as in the USA do it for drugs or drug money. It is a huge problem in Germany.

Illegal human trafficking is a major focus of police work in Germany, yet it remains prevalent. In 2007, Germany was listed by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime as a top destination for victims of human trafficking.
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years."

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Mark Twain
YYW
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3/29/2014 7:30:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 7:09:45 PM, GWL-CPA wrote:
At 3/29/2014 6:21:04 PM, YYW wrote:
That many people think something is the case does not make it the case. Similarly, that there are some bad things associated with prostitution's legalization doesn't mean that it ought to be illegal.

I respect your thoughts on that, but, a reality check is in order.

Why don't you run for congress or the Presidency on a pro legalize prostitution platform.

Because that's not an issue I especially care about. As it happens, I think that prostitution ought to be legalized, regulated and moderately taxed because doing so would have the salutary effect of protecting women who engage in it, lead to the prevention of STI transmission and generate additional tax revenue -meaning that it would actually generate money whereas at present it costs society money (in enforcing laws and prosecuting offenders). But, the country isn't ready to hear that yet. And, I'm not running for anything. I'm too young for that, anyway.

Why doesn't Rand or Ron Paul?

I assure you that I have no idea.

I know that the Libertarian platform does say repeal all drug and prostitution laws; but, I rarely hear Rand or Ron Paul talk about that much. Texas and Kentucky are very conservative states that would never legalize prostitution.

Maybe, but alternatively they just might not think that legalizing prostitution is an especially important issue relative to the other political challenges that both seem concerned with. Among them, ensuring that angry white people have the right to keep enough guns to arm a battalion, preventing the NSA from monitoring who is forming their own battalions and fighting off that ominous institution of legalized theft known as the IRS. (Of course I'm being cheeky here, because I am not a libertarian.)

You will never hear that discussed by the Republicans.

If you got Rand alone, after a few bourbons, I'll bet he'd be happy to talk about why prostitution should be legalized.

If Rand Paul does make that one of his campaign promises, he will not be nominated by the Republican Party; and he will have to run as an independent. The chances of him winning are slim to none. But, that is only half the battle.

I really don't care all that much about Rand. He's a strange fellow who has done some interesting things and raised some interesting points about issues in isolated cases, but he's not really a subject I'm interested in discussing further.

Most people were against Slavery right before the Civil War. Guess what, slavery was abolished.

So, that's not even remotely close to true. The vast majority of Americans both in the North and South were wholly in favor of slavery before the civil war. There were only a small percentage of abolitionists and industrialists in the North East who opposed it. It is no coincidence, though, that New England has been the moral conscience of the United States since our founding. But, alas, I'm lost as to why we're even talking about slavery. Slavery is not prostitution, nor is it like prostitution.

Most people in the USA, except for 11 small counties in Nevada that represent 10% of Nevada"s population, are against legalizing prostitution. Guess what, prostitution in the USA is only legal in those 11 small counties in Nevada.

I don't really care, and neither should you. Whether people think something or not does not make it the case.

There are many LGBT groups, e.g., GLAD and legalize pot groups, e.g., NORML that are making small inroads; and those groups now have the support of Presidents Obama and Clinton and their wives. And, Obama and Eric Holder seems to be pushing decriminalization of pot. I guess we will have to see what we see about those issues in America.

When my generation becomes more politically active, there's going to be some amazing changes that take place, true enough.
Tsar of DDO
ClassicRobert
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3/29/2014 9:30:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 5:11:17 PM, GWL-CPA wrote:
Part I

1. You're entire first argument is that because it is not popularly supported, prostitution should never be legalized. This is ridiculous. First of all, the there is literally a logical fallacy named for that- Argumentum ad populum. Because a large amount of people support it does not mean that a lot of people support it. Second, you totally cherry picked that statistic about 81% of people not supporting legalization of prostitution. The website you cited gave statistics for support based on recency, with the most recent polls at the top. After the 1995 number you cited, the polls consistently show an increasing amount of public support for legalized prostitution. But once again, level of public support has no bearing on whether or not prostitution should be legalized.

2. You then argue based on regulations, saying that the only way it could work is if it were regulated. This flows through to show that it can work, which refutes your own claim that prostitution should never be legalized.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
ClassicRobert
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3/29/2014 9:35:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 5:33:01 PM, GWL-CPA wrote:
Part II

Literally none of this does anything to prove that prostitution should never be legalized.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
Jingram994
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3/29/2014 9:37:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 5:11:17 PM, GWL-CPA wrote:
Part I


One fact being overlooked by the legalize prostitution crowd and debaters at this site is that in the USA, 81% of the population is against legalizing prostitution - 87% of the women and 74% of the men.

K. So? Argument ad populum. In the past, you have shown that you are against such things as marijuana being legalized despite the fact that most people want this to happen. Why is there a double standard with this issue? The fact that most of the population (of a given country; those proportions don't hold true anywhere else) is against something doesn't mean anything at all.
Also, the fact that almost all of your arguments about the opinions of others on this site are somehow 'irrelevant', purely because there aren't a massive number of us, is in itself a massive fallacy. Simple weight of numbers means literally d*ck all.


DDO has "The Big Issues" section with 48 questions. Why do you think DDO does not have a question "Should Female Prostitution be legal?" One reason is because it is very sexist and chauvinistic.

There *IS* a question for legalizing prostitution. The fact that it does not narrow the issue to purely female prostitutes isn't nearly as important as you seem to think. This would do nothing more than turn the broad issue into a narrow question, defeating the whole purpose of it being there. Is it not physically possible for males to become prostitutes in your worldview?

I think it proves that there are a lot of male chauvinist pigs at this site. I guess you could conclude that very few members at DDO vote on polls, which would be a valid conclusion based on the number who actually voted.

Nice correlation there. Please show how belief that two consenting adults should legally be allowed to exchange intercourse for currency makes one a 'chauvinist pig'. You will also note that this poll does not specify female prostitutes, simply prostitution in general. The fact that you yourself read it to mean only females is not relevant to this at all.


Again, one fact being overlooked by the legalize prostitution debaters at this site and John Stossel is that in the USA, 81% of the population is against legalizing prostitution - 87% of the women and 74% of the men.
http://prostitution.procon.org...

Again, not relevant. Weight of numbers does not mean anything at all. Many things that a majority of people are for are not legal. Many things that most people want criminalized are not, because it would infringe on the rights of others to make it so (abortion, for eg. In many states, the majority position is that it should not be legal; for obvious reasons, this does not and should not impact the ability for women who don't hold this position to obtain a legal, medically safe abortion)


Most men in the USA that use prostitutes want the woman to swallow; it is an ego trip; and, they don't want to use condoms for vaginal sex. So, legalizing prostitution will not work for most men. They will still go to illegal prostitutes to get what they want. Most women who want to earn a few extra bucks will not go through the background checks and medical tests required in Nevada. So, legalizing prostitution will have almost no effect on illegal prostitution, as is the case in Nevada and the rest of the World.

I notice that you haven't given any sources that actually support your beliefs on how 'the rest of the World' is dealing with this. Only Nevada.
ClassicRobert
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3/29/2014 9:47:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 5:56:54 PM, GWL-CPA wrote:
Part III
If anything, you're claim that prostitutes need to unionize shows the necessity for prostitution should be legalized- so the prostitutes can get better treatment.

Your speak of the paperwork is something that happens with just about any industry- prostitution is not unique in that regard. The rest of this post is really just useless babble.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
Jingram994
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3/29/2014 9:49:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 5:33:01 PM, GWL-CPA wrote:
Part II

Most of the first 2/3 of this are simply not even a little bit relevant to the actual topic. Rather than arguing your case, you are simply stating some facts about the situation and then going off on a tangent about 'where I live...'. Like you often do. This isn't relevant, so I really can't see why you've posted it here.

Some obvious facts overlooked by Stossel:

1. - Only counties in Nevada where populations are less than 400,000 can have prostitution in brothels.
K. That's clearly an administrative issue. Not enough manpower to enforce regulations at this point in time. This doesn't support an argument that prostitution should still be criminalized, though.

2. - There were only 28 brothels in Nevada in 2008 and all were located in rural counties.
So?

3. - Brothels are not allowed in Clark Country where Vegas is located and Washoe County where Reno is located. These two counties account for 88% of Nevada"s population.
So?

4. - The closest brothel to Vegas is about a 1 hour drive.
So?

5. - There are only about 800 women registered to work as prostitutes, and many of the 28 brothels will only have 8-15 girls on call at any given time. The Moonlite Bunny Ranch that Stossel featured has from 40 to 50 girls on call and is the biggest brothel with 36 private rooms.
So?

6. - The going rate for an average looking prostitute is $100 to $250 for 15 minutes to an hour - but that is only the basic, which is rarely what you pay. The gorgeous women Stossel had on his program go from $1,000 to $2,500 per hour, which usually only movie and sport super stars, and the very wealthy can afford.
So?

7. - The brothel industry in Nevada is well regulated, which would appear go against Stossel's rants against government control.
Uhh... And you say you're arguing *against* regulation of prostitution?

8. - All registered prostitutes must fill out applications with the county they work in. Criminal background checks are done, including sending fingerprints to the FBI. This becomes part of a permanent record and can be held against women if they go for employment at regular jobs, e.g., payroll clerk, secretary, bank teller, etc. This is cited as one of the reasons why many illegal prostitutes will never consider becoming legal prostitutes. When they quite being prostitutes, no real employer will hire them if they know they were prostitutes.
Why not? That's discrimination. I thought it was illegal to discriminate because of past, *legal* jobs that potential employees have held down. That only means that it should be made illegal to do this if it isn't already. It sure as hell isn't a legitimate argument against regulation of prostitution.

9. - Legal prostitutes are required to be tested weekly by a cervical specimen, and by blood test monthly - this is costly, an administrative burden , and the cost is paid for by the prostitutes.
Not as costly as all the unnecessary money going into keeping illegal prostitution 'under control'. The porn industry also requires these tests. Hell, many other industries unrelated directly to sexual work also require similar tests that are just as if not more costly. This is a public safety issue; why should taxpayers *NOT* have to spend money on keeping this industry safe for everyone? Personal disagreement with various other issues doesn't give you the right to not pay taxes toward that particular issue; why should this be an exception?

10. - These prostitutes are independent contractors, and they split 50/50 the money from the tricks/johns with the brothel owners. The brothel owners do not provide health insurance, vacation, sick leave, etc. They must stay at the brothels from 8 to 12 hours or more per day, many stay overnight for 9 days straight. By legal definition, they should be treated as employees, but the brothels owners get away with breaking many employment laws, which the local country law enforcement could care less about. There is apparently a lot of cronyism with local county law enforcement.
So? That simply means that these employers should be put under due to mistreatment of employees; it does not legitimize arguments against regulation of prostitution. It simply legitimizes arguments for disabusing people of this notion that prostitution is not a 'legitimate' job, or that they don't deserve all the same rights as every other employee is entitled to. It simply means that smarter regulation and better enforcement is needed.
Ragnar_Rahl
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3/29/2014 9:59:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Even Bill O'Reilly (the O"Reilly Factor at FOX) disagrees with Stossel on legalizing prostitution and drugs in the USA.
My god, a religious conservative disagrees with a libertarian on matters of personal conduct? What an astoundingly unpredictable result!

":One fact being overlooked by the legalize prostitution crowd and debaters at this site is that in the USA, 81% of the population is against legalizing prostitution - 87% of the women and 74% of the men.
That's like saying "One fact being overlooked by advocates of religious tolerance is that, in Nazi Germany, 80 percent of people were in favor of the holocaust." (Not an actual statistic, since you know, polling would have got you killed, but probably something like that.)

It's not a "fact someone is overlooking," it's a fact with zero relevance to the merits of the case.

A reality check is seriously needed by you young immature folks.
Reality is not discovered by polling. You don't get to vote on the laws of physics, or the value of Pi, contrary to the efforts of a onetime Indiana legislature. Prostitution's legalization would either benefit a certain set of goals or it wouldn't, regardless of what 81% of morons think.

I think it proves that there are a lot of male chauvinist pigs at this site.
Because surely the people who declare that women should be commercially sovereign over their own bodies, free to contract as they wish with other consenting parties, are chauvinist pigs.

Assuming you could convince most Americans to legalize prostitution, which will never happen, it would only work if there were well regulated brothels with mandatory weekly testing for STDs and monthly testing for HIV, which is how it works in Nevada.
Between 1980 and 2009 Rhode Island had perfectly legal prostitution that, although strongly restricted in terms of location and commercial structure, had nothing resembling a state mandated testing regime. I am not aware that Rhode Island's STD rates differ greatly from the rest of the US.

Assuming you could convince most Americans to legalize prostitution, which will never happen, it would only work if there were well regulated brothels with mandatory weekly testing for STDs and monthly testing for HIV, which is how it works in Nevada

tens of thousands of brothels and millions of prostitutes tested weekly and monthly across the USA is insane.
According to your own assertions, 200 prostitutes need to work at a time to serve the prostitution demand of what you tell us is 10 percent of Nevada's population (270k people), plus SIGNIFICANT tourism to purchases these only-legal-here services. Assuming only half the customers are from out of county (it's probably more than that) I'm counting about 220k prostitutes working simultaneously to service the national need. Based on a 40 hr workweek and a month's vacation (high estimate), I'm counting about 1 million, not millions. And since all the estimates were tilted toward higher numbers of prostitutes needed, it's probably less than that. Could you have a state-mandated testing regime for that many? Sure, with the tax revenue from brothels, if you roll that way, statist. You know what would be more efficient? Holy crap, if someone catches an STD from Rancher Joe's Bunnies, he tells people, and people stop going to Rancher Joe's Bunnies. Guess Rancher Joe better do a good job of testing and condom implementation if he doesn't want to lose customers.

Most men in the USA that use prostitutes want the woman to swallow; it is an ego trip; and, they don't want to use condoms for vaginal sex
That's how **** goes down in Africa, not Amsterdam, and the US, too, is a first world country where most people have a basic education about these things, professionals especially. There's an ego trip in swallowing to be sure, but most men are NOT that kind of suicidal, especially with prositutes where the culture pretty much assumes she has something whatever the testing regime is. And where prostitution is legal, unlike where prostitution is illegal and happens anyway-- guess what? The woman has the power to say no.


She can call the police if he doesn't listen.


Will there be shady places where no one on either side cares? Sure, there already are. The difference is that legalizing it enables the existence of less shady places where people do care, as an alternative, to suck up the market share from the shady ones.

Most women who want to earn a few extra bucks will not go through the background checks and medical tests required in Nevada.
Why do you think of women as so stupid? Are you some kind of chauvinist or something? :)

Most Americans, especially women, don't want that crap in their neighborhoods.
I suppose you also back the people who don't want black people in their neighborhoods?

Most cities and communities in the USA do not even allow strip clubs, sex stores/ porn shops anywhere but in outlying areas, except maybe "Lovers Lane" and "Frederick"s of Hollywood."
Which is, you know, stupid, and evil, and btw "outlying areas" means "where black people live."

Where I live in Illinois, strip clubs and sex stores are closed all the time by the citizens of those communities who get fed up with the crime that goes on around them.
Translation: They see black people in their neighborhoods. They are scared. They think getting rid of some (harmless) pervs will make the (harmless) black people go away. Meanwhile, their son deals meth in their basement, but that's okay, he's white.
Illinois has perhaps the most racially based politics in America. It should NEVER be looked on as an example to follow for anything. Nimbyism is stupid and evil, and so are your neighbors.

I would have to drive over 35 to 50 miles to find a "Lovers Lane" and "Frederick's of Hollywood" to buy my wife a sexy nightie.
And yet you wish to perpetuate this.

Why don't you run for congress or the Presidency on a pro legalize prostitution platform. Why doesn't Rand or Ron Paul?
Ron Paul DOES do that.

Rand Paul doesn't because he's even more of a biblebanger than his father. Neither is ACTUALLY a fan of individual liberty you know.

Most people were against Slavery right before the Civil War. Guess what, slavery was abolished.
Most people were actually not at all abolitionists. Most people had a lukewarm "state's rights" opinion on slavery. The Civil War did not start because the North was about to abolish slavery, it started because of the South's misguided fears that it would, because the small minority of abolitionists had very loud voices. The antislavery amendments passed because Southern state governments were run by the Northern occupation, and volunteers to move to the South to do this job tended to be the sort of radical abolitionists who would hate the South enough to volunteer for this. Former confederates were denied the franchise, and it could only be restored.

Also, slavery was never ACTUALLY abolished, since you clearly think the government to rightfully own these women's bodies, not themselves.

Maybe you know something I don't know about public opinion in the USA.
Maybe public opinion DOES NOT DETERMINE WHAT THE RIGHT THING TO DO IS.

And, Obama and Eric Holder seems to be pushing decriminalization of pot.
You keep talking about "reality", but you really seem to have a poor grasp of it. The Obama administration has been characterized by strident enforcement of the drug war for most of its reign. They talk a good game about "compassion," but they leave behind them a trail of raids on medical dispensaries that would probably have been quietly left alone under Bush.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Jingram994
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3/29/2014 10:01:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 5:56:54 PM, GWL-CPA wrote:
Part III

These prostitutes should join a union and demand that they get 75% of the fee, since they do all the work. Would local politicians allow that? It is a big joke, not only in Nevada but in the World where legal brothels are allowed.
Really? I wasn't aware that prostitutes couldn't join unions. I certainly wasn't aware the countries that are actually progressive and humanitarian have the exact same issues in this regard as the socially backwards US does. Can you please give some sources showing that this is the case IN OTHER COUNTRIES? Because you have not actually done this yet. The below sources, as I will point out, do not actually show this and are neither relevant nor valid.

Let"s look at other facts, "Germany legalized prostitution in 2003, but recriminalized it in 1998, after complaints that legalization had solved few of the problems it set out to address."
https://safoundation.com...

Are you serious? Germany 'recriminalized' prostitution BEFORE they made it legal? Not only does this not support your argument, it isn't even internally consistent or in-line with linear causality.

"Holland scrapping liberal policies on drugs and brothels to clean up image"
The Dutch are rethinking their famously liberal policies on legalized brothels, prostitution and soft drugs, such as magic mushrooms and cannabis, amid fears of growing crime and social decline.""
http://www.telegraph.co.uk...

This is a bit old. I don't think they actually went through with this to even close to the extent you are implying. The article merely discusses potential harder regulations and general 'cleaning up' of the industries, as well. It does not even mention criminalizing those things. This article doesn't support your argument.

If I use my wife as a barometer as to what should be done to all prostitutes and their tricks/johns married or not, well, let"s just say, it is very scary.
Why would you do this? Why should we care? Why does it matter what she personally thinks about the issue? According to your own standards, it doesn't matter because she isn't at least 1/2 of the population unto herself.
GWL-CPA
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3/29/2014 10:17:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 9:35:39 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 3/29/2014 5:33:01 PM, GWL-CPA wrote:
Part II

Literally none of this does anything to prove that prostitution should never be legalized.

Really, then why is it not legalized in all states in America?

What don't you understand?
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years."

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Mark Twain
ClassicRobert
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3/29/2014 10:34:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 10:17:42 PM, GWL-CPA wrote:
At 3/29/2014 9:35:39 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 3/29/2014 5:33:01 PM, GWL-CPA wrote:
Part II

Literally none of this does anything to prove that prostitution should never be legalized.

Really, then why is it not legalized in all states in America?

What don't you understand?

Something not being legalized currently is not reason that it should not be legalized- that would assume an omniscient government, or in a democracy, an omniscient people.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
ADreamOfLiberty
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3/29/2014 10:39:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 9:30:00 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 3/29/2014 5:11:17 PM, GWL-CPA wrote:
Part I

1. You're entire first argument is that because it is not popularly supported, prostitution should never be legalized. This is ridiculous. First of all, the there is literally a logical fallacy named for that- Argumentum ad populum. Because a large amount of people support it does not mean that a lot of people support it.

We have a winner ladies and gentlemen. In fact it doesn't matter whether large amount of people support it or a lot of people support it. All that matters is whether it is supported by logic and evidence.
LOL, yeah, it's pretty amazing how they think they can "reason" with you. - Sidewalker, speaking of advocates for sexual deviancy.

So, my advice, Liberty, is to go somewhere else. Leave, and never come back. - YYW

And that's what I did. Contact me at http://www.edeb8.com... by the same user name if you have anything you'd like to say.
GWL-CPA
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3/29/2014 10:46:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 9:49:17 PM, Jingram994 wrote:
At 3/29/2014 5:33:01 PM, GWL-CPA wrote:
Part II

Most of the first 2/3 of this are simply not even a little bit relevant to the actual topic. Rather than arguing your case, you are simply stating some facts about the situation and then going off on a tangent about 'where I live...'. Like you often do. This isn't relevant, so I really can't see why you've posted it here.

Some obvious facts overlooked by Stossel:

1. - Only counties in Nevada where populations are less than 400,000 can have prostitution in brothels.
K. That's clearly an administrative issue. Not enough manpower to enforce regulations at this point in time. This doesn't support an argument that prostitution should still be criminalized, though.

2. - There were only 28 brothels in Nevada in 2008 and all were located in rural counties.
So?

3. - Brothels are not allowed in Clark Country where Vegas is located and Washoe County where Reno is located. These two counties account for 88% of Nevada"s population.
So?

4. - The closest brothel to Vegas is about a 1 hour drive.
So?

5. - There are only about 800 women registered to work as prostitutes, and many of the 28 brothels will only have 8-15 girls on call at any given time. The Moonlite Bunny Ranch that Stossel featured has from 40 to 50 girls on call and is the biggest brothel with 36 private rooms.
So?

6. - The going rate for an average looking prostitute is $100 to $250 for 15 minutes to an hour - but that is only the basic, which is rarely what you pay. The gorgeous women Stossel had on his program go from $1,000 to $2,500 per hour, which usually only movie and sport super stars, and the very wealthy can afford.
So?

7. - The brothel industry in Nevada is well regulated, which would appear go against Stossel's rants against government control.
Uhh... And you say you're arguing *against* regulation of prostitution?

8. - All registered prostitutes must fill out applications with the county they work in. Criminal background checks are done, including sending fingerprints to the FBI. This becomes part of a permanent record and can be held against women if they go for employment at regular jobs, e.g., payroll clerk, secretary, bank teller, etc. This is cited as one of the reasons why many illegal prostitutes will never consider becoming legal prostitutes. When they quite being prostitutes, no real employer will hire them if they know they were prostitutes.
Why not? That's discrimination. I thought it was illegal to discriminate because of past, *legal* jobs that potential employees have held down. That only means that it should be made illegal to do this if it isn't already. It sure as hell isn't a legitimate argument against regulation of prostitution.

9. - Legal prostitutes are required to be tested weekly by a cervical specimen, and by blood test monthly - this is costly, an administrative burden , and the cost is paid for by the prostitutes.
Not as costly as all the unnecessary money going into keeping illegal prostitution 'under control'. The porn industry also requires these tests. Hell, many other industries unrelated directly to sexual work also require similar tests that are just as if not more costly. This is a public safety issue; why should taxpayers *NOT* have to spend money on keeping this industry safe for everyone? Personal disagreement with various other issues doesn't give you the right to not pay taxes toward that particular issue; why should this be an exception?

10. - These prostitutes are independent contractors, and they split 50/50 the money from the tricks/johns with the brothel owners. The brothel owners do not provide health insurance, vacation, sick leave, etc. They must stay at the brothels from 8 to 12 hours or more per day, many stay overnight for 9 days straight. By legal definition, they should be treated as employees, but the brothels owners get away with breaking many employment laws, which the local country law enforcement could care less about. There is apparently a lot of cronyism with local county law enforcement.
So? That simply means that these employers should be put under due to mistreatment of employees; it does not legitimize arguments against regulation of prostitution. It simply legitimizes arguments for disabusing people of this notion that prostitution is not a 'legitimate' job, or that they don't deserve all the same rights as every other employee is entitled to. It simply means that smarter regulation and better enforcement is needed.

Actually, since it is only legal in those 11 counties in Nevada, I was only talking about unions for those 800 prostitutes in those 11 counties.

And, prostitution should not be considered a normal job, IMHO. Most prostitutes are messed up and have been abused as children and are on drugs. if you are not aware of that you are very ignorant of the facts.

Again, If I am wrong on this, run for Congress or the Presidency or local office and run on a legalize prostitution ticket and see if you get elected, and then see if you can get your state congress to play legislation legalizing prostitution in your state.

I hope you have a second job, because you will never get elected in America.

Again, you need a reality check.
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years."

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Mark Twain
GWL-CPA
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3/29/2014 10:54:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 6:37:19 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/29/2014 6:20:51 PM, thett3 wrote:
"Let"s look at other facts, "Germany legalized prostitution in 2003, but recriminalized it in 1998, after complaints that legalization had solved few of the problems it set out to address.""

Lolwut?

They went back to the future?

"Germany Has Become the Cut-Rate Prostitution Capital of the World"

The presence of thousands of brothels and hundreds of thousands of prostitutes has heightened competition and pushed prices down steeply in the German sex trade. One tourist from Florida, who visits the country three times annually to pay for cheap sex, compares the scene to a discount supermarket: "Germany is like Aldi for prostitutes," he says.

Prostitution became legal in Germany in 2002, and the open sex trade has taken off in the years since. There are reportedly around 3,000 red-light establishments in the country, and 500 brothels in Berlin alone. It"s been estimated that more than 1 million men pay for sex in Germany every day.

One of the classic arguments for legalizing prostitution is that recognizing and regulating the world"s oldest profession would improve the conditions of sex workers. Instead, recent reports paint legalized prostitution in Germany largely as a failure.

In May, Der Spiegel published a series of stories highlighting the atrocious conditions endured by prostitutes in Germany, some of whom say they arrived in the country against their will. Typically, the stories involve young women from Romania and Bulgaria who were unwittingly duped into coming to Germany, where they were forced to service dozens of men daily in flat-rate deals where customers can have all the sex they want for an allotted time period, starting at just "49 (around $65). The women say customers are known to take drugs to improve their sexual performance in order to get their money"s worth. Some women report getting paid a pittance and never being allowed to leave their brothels. During rare breaks from work, they share a room with other prostitutes, where there is a single bed and no other furniture.

(MORE: Brazil"s "Happy Prostitute" Slogan Gets a Chilly Reception)

In early June, a documentary aired on ARD, Germany"s public-broadcasting station, called Sex " Made in Germany. The film was made in part by bringing hidden cameras into brothels over the course of two years. "Sex is cheaper than anywhere else," one brothel owner in Berlin says on camera. "Germany is the biggest whorehouse in Europe, no question," a Danish brothel customer notes, according to Die Welt.

Germany"s prostitution scene has attracted visitors from around the world. Specialty tour operators have been booking groups of men from Asia, the Middle East and North America on "sex tourism" trips to Germany for years. As more men and money have flowed into the country thanks to prostitution, more and more women have arrived to serve them with the hopes of making a decent living. Instead, what seems to have happened is that the brothels have been aggressively competing with one another for business, and prices have plummeted. Alia, a 23-year-old prostitute working in Cologne, related the following account to Der Spiegel:

The going rate for oral sex and intercourse used to be "40 [$54] on Geestem"nder Strasse. But when the nearby city of Dortmund closed its streetwalking area, more women came to Cologne, says Alia. "There are more and more women now, and they drop their prices so that they"ll make something at all," she complains. Bulgarian and Romanian women sometimes charge less than "10 [$13], she says. "One woman here will even do it for a Big Mac."
http://business.time.com...

German's legalized prostitution brought more exploitation than emancipation to women

German chief police reported yesterday sex trafficking is on the rise in the country. The chief officer also said that sex trafficking has increased 11 percent from last year and 70% over five year period. While many advocates for legalized prostitution argued that legalization should improve the rights of prostitutes and eliminate discrimination, the case in Germany shows otherwise. Rather, the sex industry in Germany became a magnet for sex traffickers from Eastern Europe and African countries. Further, it became a source of exploitation of German as well as other foreign women rather than their emancipation to support their right to sell their bodies.

German's current prostitution legislation

According to the police report, since the legalization, sex trade is tolerated in most part of German soil except for a few industrialized area. Many Eastern European women are forced into prostitution in Germany, but forced prostitution of African women are on the rise as well. The African women are manipulated or coerced into prostitution by using voodoo rituals to intimate victims in many cases. But the greater concern lies elsewhere. The police said that child trafficking comprises 65 out of 534 cases reported last year, and 41 of them were under the age of 14.

http://www.examiner.com...

I don't know what you folks don't get. Legalized prostitution is bad for the world. Most of you folks have no clue and are chauvinistic pigs that thing all women are nothing but sexual objects for a man's pleasure.
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years."

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Mark Twain
ClassicRobert
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3/29/2014 10:55:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 10:39:50 PM, ADreamOfLiberty wrote:
At 3/29/2014 9:30:00 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 3/29/2014 5:11:17 PM, GWL-CPA wrote:
Part I

1. You're entire first argument is that because it is not popularly supported, prostitution should never be legalized. This is ridiculous. First of all, the there is literally a logical fallacy named for that- Argumentum ad populum. Because a large amount of people do not support it does not mean that it should be illegal.

We have a winner ladies and gentlemen. In fact it doesn't matter whether large amount of people support it or a lot of people support it. All that matters is whether it is supported by logic and evidence.

I meant to say the bolded, but I think you understood what I was saying.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

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GWL-CPA
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3/29/2014 10:56:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 9:35:39 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 3/29/2014 5:33:01 PM, GWL-CPA wrote:
Part II

Literally none of this does anything to prove that prostitution should never be legalized.

You don't read well.

Again, go out run for office and see what happens. You will not change the view in the USA. You are just full of it and need a reality check.
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years."

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Mark Twain
GWL-CPA
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3/29/2014 10:58:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 9:59:07 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Even Bill O'Reilly (the O"Reilly Factor at FOX) disagrees with Stossel on legalizing prostitution and drugs in the USA.
My god, a religious conservative disagrees with a libertarian on matters of personal conduct? What an astoundingly unpredictable result!

":One fact being overlooked by the legalize prostitution crowd and debaters at this site is that in the USA, 81% of the population is against legalizing prostitution - 87% of the women and 74% of the men.
That's like saying "One fact being overlooked by advocates of religious tolerance is that, in Nazi Germany, 80 percent of people were in favor of the holocaust." (Not an actual statistic, since you know, polling would have got you killed, but probably something like that.)

It's not a "fact someone is overlooking," it's a fact with zero relevance to the merits of the case.

A reality check is seriously needed by you young immature folks.
Reality is not discovered by polling. You don't get to vote on the laws of physics, or the value of Pi, contrary to the efforts of a onetime Indiana legislature. Prostitution's legalization would either benefit a certain set of goals or it wouldn't, regardless of what 81% of morons think.

I think it proves that there are a lot of male chauvinist pigs at this site.
Because surely the people who declare that women should be commercially sovereign over their own bodies, free to contract as they wish with other consenting parties, are chauvinist pigs.

Assuming you could convince most Americans to legalize prostitution, which will never happen, it would only work if there were well regulated brothels with mandatory weekly testing for STDs and monthly testing for HIV, which is how it works in Nevada.
Between 1980 and 2009 Rhode Island had perfectly legal prostitution that, although strongly restricted in terms of location and commercial structure, had nothing resembling a state mandated testing regime. I am not aware that Rhode Island's STD rates differ greatly from the rest of the US.


Assuming you could convince most Americans to legalize prostitution, which will never happen, it would only work if there were well regulated brothels with mandatory weekly testing for STDs and monthly testing for HIV, which is how it works in Nevada

tens of thousands of brothels and millions of prostitutes tested weekly and monthly across the USA is insane.
According to your own assertions, 200 prostitutes need to work at a time to serve the prostitution demand of what you tell us is 10 percent of Nevada's population (270k people), plus SIGNIFICANT tourism to purchases these only-legal-here services. Assuming only half the customers are from out of county (it's probably more than that) I'm counting about 220k prostitutes working simultaneously to service the national need. Based on a 40 hr workweek and a month's vacation (high estimate), I'm counting about 1 million, not millions. And since all the estimates were tilted toward higher numbers of prostitutes needed, it's probably less than that. Could you have a state-mandated testing regime for that many? Sure, with the tax revenue from brothels, if you roll that way, statist. You know what would be more efficient? Holy crap, if someone catches an STD from Rancher Joe's Bunnies, he tells people, and people stop going to Rancher Joe's Bunnies. Guess Rancher Joe better do a good job of testing and condom implementation if he doesn't want to lose customers.

Most men in the USA that use prostitutes want the woman to swallow; it is an ego trip; and, they don't want to use condoms for vaginal sex
That's how **** goes down in Africa, not Amsterdam, and the US, too, is a first world country where most people have a basic education about these things, professionals especially. There's an ego trip in swallowing to be sure, but most men are NOT that kind of suicidal, especially with prositutes where the culture pretty much assumes she has something whatever the testing regime is. And where prostitution is legal, unlike where prostitution is illegal and happens anyway-- guess what? The woman has the power to say no.


She can call the police if he doesn't listen.


Will there be shady places where no one on either side cares? Sure, there already are. The difference is that legalizing it enables the existence of less shady places where people do care, as an alternative, to suck up the market share from the shady ones.

Most women who want to earn a few extra bucks will not go through the background checks and medical tests required in Nevada.
Why do you think of women as so stupid? Are you some kind of chauvinist or something? :)

Most Americans, especially women, don't want that crap in their neighborhoods.
I suppose you also back the people who don't want black people in their neighborhoods?

Most cities and communities in the USA do not even allow strip clubs, sex stores/ porn shops anywhere but in outlying areas, except maybe "Lovers Lane" and "Frederick"s of Hollywood."
Which is, you know, stupid, and evil, and btw "outlying areas" means "where black people live."

Where I live in Illinois, strip clubs and sex stores are closed all the time by the citizens of those communities who get fed up with the crime that goes on around them.
Translation: They see black people in their neighborhoods. They are scared. They think getting rid of some (harmless) pervs will make the (harmless) black people go away. Meanwhile, their son deals meth in their basement, but that's okay, he's white.
Illinois has perhaps the most racially based politics in America. It should NEVER be looked on as an example to follow for anything. Nimbyism is stupid and evil, and so are your neighbors.

I would have to drive over 35 to 50 miles to find a "Lovers Lane" and "Frederick's of Hollywood" to buy my wife a sexy nightie.
And yet you wish to perpetuate this.

Why don't you run for congress or the Presidency on a pro legalize prostitution platform. Why doesn't Rand or Ron Paul?
Ron Paul DOES do that.

Rand Paul doesn't because he's even more of a biblebanger than his father. Neither is ACTUALLY a fan of individual liberty you know.

Most people were against Slavery right before the Civil War. Guess what, slavery was abolished.
Most people were actually not at all abolitionists. Most people had a lukewarm "state's rights" opinion on slavery. The Civil War did not start because the North was about to abolish slavery, it started because of the South's misguided fears that it would, because the small minority of abolitionists had very loud voices. The antislavery amendments passed because Southern state governments were run by the Northern occupation, and volunteers to move to the South to do this job tended to be the sort of radical abolitionists who would hate the South enough to volunteer for this. Former confederates were denied the franchise, and it could only be restored.

Also, slavery was never ACTUALLY abolished, since you clearly think the government to rightfully own these women's bodies, not themselves.

Maybe you know something I don't know about public opinion in the USA.
Maybe public opinion DOES NOT DETERMINE WHAT THE RIGHT THING TO DO IS.

And, Obama and Eric Holder seems to be pushing decriminalization of pot.
You keep talking about "reality", but you really seem to have a poor grasp of it. The Obama administration has been characterized by strident enforcement of the drug war for most of its reign. They talk a good game about "compassion," but they leave behind them a trail of raids on medical dispensaries that would probably have been quietly left alone under Bush.

You have not clue. Did you listen to Holder and Obama recently?
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished by how much he'd learned in seven years."

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

Mark Twain
ClassicRobert
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3/29/2014 10:59:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 10:56:30 PM, GWL-CPA wrote:
At 3/29/2014 9:35:39 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
At 3/29/2014 5:33:01 PM, GWL-CPA wrote:
Part II

Literally none of this does anything to prove that prostitution should never be legalized.

You don't read well.

Again, go out run for office and see what happens. You will not change the view in the USA. You are just full of it and need a reality check.

And what relevance does popular support have on whether or not it should be legal? That means it won't become legal immediately, sure, but that has no bearing on whether or not it should be legal. It just means that the majority share an opinion that could be right or it could be wrong.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder
xXCryptoXx
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3/29/2014 11:15:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 9:30:00 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
Because a large amount of people support it does not mean that a lot of people support it.

Seems legit.
Nolite Timere
ClassicRobert
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3/29/2014 11:28:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/29/2014 11:15:47 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 3/29/2014 9:30:00 PM, ClassicRobert wrote:
Because a large amount of people support it does not mean that a lot of people support it.

Seems legit.

Lol. You know what I meant to say.
Debate me: Economic decision theory should be adjusted to include higher-order preferences for non-normative purposes http://www.debate.org...

Do you really believe that? Or not? If you believe it, you should man up and defend it in a debate. -RoyLatham

My Pet Fish is such a Douche- NiamC

It's an app to meet friends and stuff, sort of like an adult club penguin- Thett3, describing Tinder