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What if we are blind to our own prejudices?

Cermank
Posts: 3,773
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3/31/2014 12:47:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Our entire lives, we'd be living in communities that'd expect you to support them in their 'endeavor' to make your life awesome. And there would be a whole social structure that'd would be in place to press upon that very 'obligation'. So much so, that the social structure would be willing to help people at the top cover up a lot of their actions. Actions that you wont condone in any case, but still would be performed by the elite 'for the greater good'. You KNOW they shouldn't, and THEY know they shouldn't- but they would. Yes, they would. Because it helps them fulfill their personal whims and fancies.

And people would still support them, because its easier. And they don't know any better. Because the society has *internalised* that there needs to be disruption in order to be *assertive*. They're just pawns, and they don't even know it yet.

http://www.reddit.com...
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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3/31/2014 1:45:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The idea is, if those in power didn't do it, someone else would.

An example of this kind of logic is to ask why the US felt so compelled to do business with China, even though 1) the US and China have been de facto enemies ever since the CCP took control, and 2) assisting (COMMUNIST) China economically would only fuel future geopolitical competition...

Essentially, if the US did not do business with China, other countries would. Japan, Europe, etc, would fill the void that would be present if the US did not engage with China economically. So, even though it's in the US's best interests to keep competitors down (and China is most certainly a competitor outside of the US's sphere of influence), the US makes a "deal with the devil" so to speak and does a huge amount of business with China. This business enriches Chinese industry as they fill orders at pricing points that US companies simply cannot fill due to higher cost structures. This business also "hollows out" US businesses that would otherwise be filling those orders...it puts Americans out of work because Chinese labor is so much more competitive.

Still, this is better than not doing business with China at all. If the US did not do any business, 1) its products would cost far more to produce and would not be globally competitive, 2) it would lose access to Chinese labor and Chinese consumer markets, and 3) it would lead to a weaker economic position than had the US conducted business with China.

---

The solution? Probably to 1) conceive or manifest into being an environment where politicians did not have so much power vis a vis the populace (in your NK example), and 2) in the case of US/China trade, equalize the wages in the international labor market (which is indeed occurring) so that US industry would not be so enticed to ship jobs overseas.

For the NK example, the key question to ask is WHY KJU has so much power...why is NK run as a military totalitarian dictatorship (i.e. martial law). This is important to realize...NK is simply a country under an almost picture-perfect definition of perpetual martial law. This martial law's reason for being is due to perceived threats (especially the US), which may very well be more than mere perception.

The Korean war was absolutely brutal. We used napalm without restraint in that war. Most of Korea was leveled...barely any cities actually survived the conflict. Most of Seoul has actually been built from the ground-up following the Korean War...relics like their Imperial Palace were completely destroyed in that war.

Did Kim Il Sung have people who believed in his cause, perhaps even justifiably so? Sure. So did Fidel Castro, Qaddafi, and other charismatic communists...they all had some sort of compelling argument that was convincing beyond just brute force. They see their way of life being threatened by the US, so they marshal all of their strength to defend against it. In NK's case, it's essentially complete and utter militarization of their society at the expense of their economy.

The solution to this? Hell if I know. IMHO the Korean Peninsula is far more complicated to solve than Israel in the Middle East. At least in the Middle east, there is a decent chance for a great power (the US or Russia) to co-opt the entire region permanently and thus quell all the (relatively minor) conflicts in the region. In Korea...you have the 6 party talks, which involve the two Koreas, Russia, China, Japan, and the US. So many major competitors...so many conflicting interests...

Regardless, once Korea has some semblance of security, the military will loosen its grip over the populace. That generally holds true for any nation, and IMHO Korea is no different. To just wish KJU away without dealing with the underlying geopolitical situation would probably result in someone more extreme and more unpredictable taking over. Unfortunately, as explained above, that geopolitical situation is nightmarishly complicated.

---

So to answer your question, I don't think people are blind to their prejudices...it's a matter of understanding WHY those prejudices exist in the first place.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Cermank
Posts: 3,773
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3/31/2014 1:56:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/31/2014 1:45:56 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
The idea is, if those in power didn't do it, someone else would.

An example of this kind of logic is to ask why the US felt so compelled to do business with China, even though 1) the US and China have been de facto enemies ever since the CCP took control, and 2) assisting (COMMUNIST) China economically would only fuel future geopolitical competition...

Essentially, if the US did not do business with China, other countries would. Japan, Europe, etc, would fill the void that would be present if the US did not engage with China economically. So, even though it's in the US's best interests to keep competitors down (and China is most certainly a competitor outside of the US's sphere of influence), the US makes a "deal with the devil" so to speak and does a huge amount of business with China. This business enriches Chinese industry as they fill orders at pricing points that US companies simply cannot fill due to higher cost structures. This business also "hollows out" US businesses that would otherwise be filling those orders...it puts Americans out of work because Chinese labor is so much more competitive.

Still, this is better than not doing business with China at all. If the US did not do any business, 1) its products would cost far more to produce and would not be globally competitive, 2) it would lose access to Chinese labor and Chinese consumer markets, and 3) it would lead to a weaker economic position than had the US conducted business with China.

---

The solution? Probably to 1) conceive or manifest into being an environment where politicians did not have so much power vis a vis the populace (in your NK example), and 2) in the case of US/China trade, equalize the wages in the international labor market (which is indeed occurring) so that US industry would not be so enticed to ship jobs overseas.

For the NK example, the key question to ask is WHY KJU has so much power...why is NK run as a military totalitarian dictatorship (i.e. martial law). This is important to realize...NK is simply a country under an almost picture-perfect definition of perpetual martial law. This martial law's reason for being is due to perceived threats (especially the US), which may very well be more than mere perception.

The Korean war was absolutely brutal. We used napalm without restraint in that war. Most of Korea was leveled...barely any cities actually survived the conflict. Most of Seoul has actually been built from the ground-up following the Korean War...relics like their Imperial Palace were completely destroyed in that war.

Did Kim Il Sung have people who believed in his cause, perhaps even justifiably so? Sure. So did Fidel Castro, Qaddafi, and other charismatic communists...they all had some sort of compelling argument that was convincing beyond just brute force. They see their way of life being threatened by the US, so they marshal all of their strength to defend against it. In NK's case, it's essentially complete and utter militarization of their society at the expense of their economy.

The solution to this? Hell if I know. IMHO the Korean Peninsula is far more complicated to solve than Israel in the Middle East. At least in the Middle east, there is a decent chance for a great power (the US or Russia) to co-opt the entire region permanently and thus quell all the (relatively minor) conflicts in the region. In Korea...you have the 6 party talks, which involve the two Koreas, Russia, China, Japan, and the US. So many major competitors...so many conflicting interests...

Regardless, once Korea has some semblance of security, the military will loosen its grip over the populace. That generally holds true for any nation, and IMHO Korea is no different. To just wish KJU away without dealing with the underlying geopolitical situation would probably result in someone more extreme and more unpredictable taking over. Unfortunately, as explained above, that geopolitical situation is nightmarishly complicated.

---

So to answer your question, I don't think people are blind to their prejudices...it's a matter of understanding WHY those prejudices exist in the first place.

I'ma answer you when I'm not, uh, this tuned in to my thoughts.