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Socialism = Degenerate Workers State?

Daktoria
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4/10/2014 11:51:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
How can socialism avoid becoming a degenerate workers state? Does democracy always become a popularity contest where bureaucrats focus more on appearing productive than being productive?
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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4/11/2014 6:01:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 11:51:10 PM, Daktoria wrote:
How can socialism avoid becoming a degenerate workers state? Does democracy always become a popularity contest where bureaucrats focus more on appearing productive than being productive?

The right wing often has trouble noticing the difference between socialism and communism. Having simple amenities like national health care and welfare do not require any state forced labor or any practices exercised by Mao or Stalin.
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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4/11/2014 8:34:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 6:01:06 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/10/2014 11:51:10 PM, Daktoria wrote:
How can socialism avoid becoming a degenerate workers state? Does democracy always become a popularity contest where bureaucrats focus more on appearing productive than being productive?

The right wing often has trouble noticing the difference between socialism and communism. Having simple amenities like national health care and welfare do not require any state forced labor or any practices exercised by Mao or Stalin.

That is not true; both sides of the spectrum have trouble with these terms. All communists are socialist but not all socialists are communists. Communists believe all property should be publicly owned while socialists believe the means of production should be publicly owned. Socialism has its roots in Saint-Simonianism

Saint-Simon was a syndicalist who believed citizenship should be based on productivity because. Saint-Simon believed politics and society should be solely based on economic production.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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4/11/2014 11:28:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Some day Americans will come to the understanding that socially responsible capitalism is all they lack. It's the US style of capitalism that is the problem.

If the political right can keep the people convinced that it has to be socialism if it's not a style of capitalism they propose then the people remain stigmatized into thinking that any social change for the good at all is a fall into the depths of socialism or even communism.

I say fukk em if they can't understand that. Let their country go all to hell even more than it already is. As the infrastructure rots around them and they find it harder and harder to survive while the economy overall is booming, they deserve what they get!

Sooner or later they will get it but it's going to be after Obama for sure because of all the racist hating for him.
progressivedem22
Posts: 1,304
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4/11/2014 11:37:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 6:01:06 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/10/2014 11:51:10 PM, Daktoria wrote:
How can socialism avoid becoming a degenerate workers state? Does democracy always become a popularity contest where bureaucrats focus more on appearing productive than being productive?

The right wing often has trouble noticing the difference between socialism and communism. Having simple amenities like national health care and welfare do not require any state forced labor or any practices exercised by Mao or Stalin.

The right wing loves socialism. Just look at the Pentagon.
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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4/11/2014 12:25:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 12:12:21 PM, Daktoria wrote:
Can we focus on a degenerate workers state here?

We can't focus on your preconceived notions of what you want this thread to be. I've given you some ideas to talk about and if you don't like that then provide some more of your own.

Everybody knows that the mutts are trying to suggest that Obama is leading the US into communism so let's not pretend that your interests lie somewhere else.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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4/12/2014 2:06:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/10/2014 11:51:10 PM, Daktoria wrote:
How can socialism avoid becoming a degenerate workers state?

By keeping the mantra of "you gotta do what you gotta do" alive.

Does democracy always become a popularity contest where bureaucrats focus more on appearing productive than being productive?
Democracies are always a popularity contest.
If you are referring to the U.S., then, yes, looking busy is always good for business.
I think of the Lilly Lebgerger Act, that Obama signed, which was viewed as super great for women's pay issues. The only problem? All it did was expand the statute of limitations, which signifies the current laws just don't seem to be working.
My work here is, finally, done.
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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4/12/2014 2:27:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 12:12:21 PM, Daktoria wrote:
Can we focus on a degenerate workers state here?

Can you not conflate socialism with communism?
Daktoria
Posts: 497
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4/12/2014 3:18:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Let's talk about the degenerate workers state.

Everything right now comes off as a gigantic irrelevant trolling dodge from being too awkward to admit the truth.
Daktoria
Posts: 497
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4/12/2014 3:19:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 2:27:05 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:12:21 PM, Daktoria wrote:
Can we focus on a degenerate workers state here?

Can you not conflate socialism with communism?

The presumption is socialism healthily evolves to communism.
Daktoria
Posts: 497
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4/12/2014 3:25:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 2:06:30 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/10/2014 11:51:10 PM, Daktoria wrote:
How can socialism avoid becoming a degenerate workers state?

By keeping the mantra of "you gotta do what you gotta do" alive.

Does democracy always become a popularity contest where bureaucrats focus more on appearing productive than being productive?
Democracies are always a popularity contest.
If you are referring to the U.S., then, yes, looking busy is always good for business.
I think of the Lilly Lebgerger Act, that Obama signed, which was viewed as super great for women's pay issues. The only problem? All it did was expand the statute of limitations, which signifies the current laws just don't seem to be working.

The problem is "you do what you gotta do" depends on the life at hand.

For example, in democracy, people can engage in a popularity contest to say the unpopular aren't supporting others despite how they're actually being supportive.

Instead of being productive, people compete to be popular, so socialism degenerates into people labeling each other as unproductive while they lazily say they're doing all they can.
Daktoria
Posts: 497
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4/12/2014 3:55:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 12:25:38 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:12:21 PM, Daktoria wrote:
Can we focus on a degenerate workers state here?


We can't focus on your preconceived notions of what you want this thread to be. I've given you some ideas to talk about and if you don't like that then provide some more of your own.

Everybody knows that the mutts are trying to suggest that Obama is leading the US into communism so let's not pretend that your interests lie somewhere else.

My preconceived notion is that socialism is a conservative ideology since it engages in historicist pragmatism which is comparable to traditionist anti-intellectualism. It denies who people are as individuals on the inside that counts, and despises creative thinking since anyone who's creative is deemed selfish according to the "commodification of labor" from the profit motive.

Obama is a liberal who appreciates consumerism instead of believing in commodity fetishism leading to social alienation, so you seem rather confused.
Daktoria
Posts: 497
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4/12/2014 4:05:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 11:37:44 AM, progressivedem22 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 6:01:06 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/10/2014 11:51:10 PM, Daktoria wrote:
How can socialism avoid becoming a degenerate workers state? Does democracy always become a popularity contest where bureaucrats focus more on appearing productive than being productive?

The right wing often has trouble noticing the difference between socialism and communism. Having simple amenities like national health care and welfare do not require any state forced labor or any practices exercised by Mao or Stalin.

The right wing loves socialism. Just look at the Pentagon.

To be fair, the Pentagon is an extension of the military industrial complex which came about from the Trotskyite New York Intellectuals.

Then again, American foreign policy is neoconserative which stands for Zionism which believes in the self-determination of those who organize in kibbutzes and bunds as well as preaching they're chosen by God to be elected for salvation in judging other people's performance of good works to represent a predestined calling.

In other words, they're socialists.
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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4/12/2014 5:20:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 3:19:00 PM, Daktoria wrote:
At 4/12/2014 2:27:05 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:12:21 PM, Daktoria wrote:
Can we focus on a degenerate workers state here?

Can you not conflate socialism with communism?

The presumption is socialism healthily evolves to communism.

Right. And that's an ignorant and false presumption.
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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4/12/2014 5:21:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 3:25:25 PM, Daktoria wrote:
At 4/12/2014 2:06:30 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/10/2014 11:51:10 PM, Daktoria wrote:
How can socialism avoid becoming a degenerate workers state?

By keeping the mantra of "you gotta do what you gotta do" alive.

Does democracy always become a popularity contest where bureaucrats focus more on appearing productive than being productive?
Democracies are always a popularity contest.
If you are referring to the U.S., then, yes, looking busy is always good for business.
I think of the Lilly Lebgerger Act, that Obama signed, which was viewed as super great for women's pay issues. The only problem? All it did was expand the statute of limitations, which signifies the current laws just don't seem to be working.

The problem is "you do what you gotta do" depends on the life at hand.

For example, in democracy, people can engage in a popularity contest to say the unpopular aren't supporting others despite how they're actually being supportive.

Instead of being productive, people compete to be popular, so socialism degenerates into people labeling each other as unproductive while they lazily say they're doing all they can.

I don't really understand what you are saying. What does democracy have to do with socialism? They are independent concepts.
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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4/12/2014 5:29:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 3:55:53 PM, Daktoria wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:25:38 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:12:21 PM, Daktoria wrote:
Can we focus on a degenerate workers state here?


We can't focus on your preconceived notions of what you want this thread to be. I've given you some ideas to talk about and if you don't like that then provide some more of your own.

Everybody knows that the mutts are trying to suggest that Obama is leading the US into communism so let's not pretend that your interests lie somewhere else.

My preconceived notion is that socialism is a conservative ideology since it engages in historicist pragmatism which is comparable to traditionist anti-intellectualism. It denies who people are as individuals on the inside that counts, and despises creative thinking since anyone who's creative is deemed selfish according to the "commodification of labor" from the profit motive.:

I'm pretty sure you don't even know what half these terms you are using mean.

"Historist pragmatism" is a recent development.

How is socialism anti-intellectual?

Right, socialism despises creativity. I don't know about you, but I have never heard a socialist having a problem with scientists/innovators.

You're just spouting random nonsense, it's ridiculous. If you're going to haphazardly string jargon, at least make it correct.

Obama is a liberal who appreciates consumerism instead of believing in commodity fetishism leading to social alienation, so you seem rather confused.

Consumerism instead of commodity fetishism...

You have no idea what you are talking about, it seems to me. Jargon does not equal good argument.
Hematite12
Posts: 400
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4/12/2014 5:30:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 4:05:50 PM, Daktoria wrote:
At 4/11/2014 11:37:44 AM, progressivedem22 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 6:01:06 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/10/2014 11:51:10 PM, Daktoria wrote:
How can socialism avoid becoming a degenerate workers state? Does democracy always become a popularity contest where bureaucrats focus more on appearing productive than being productive?

The right wing often has trouble noticing the difference between socialism and communism. Having simple amenities like national health care and welfare do not require any state forced labor or any practices exercised by Mao or Stalin.

The right wing loves socialism. Just look at the Pentagon.

To be fair, the Pentagon is an extension of the military industrial complex which came about from the Trotskyite New York Intellectuals.

Then again, American foreign policy is neoconserative which stands for Zionism which believes in the self-determination of those who organize in kibbutzes and bunds as well as preaching they're chosen by God to be elected for salvation in judging other people's performance of good works to represent a predestined calling.

In other words, they're socialists.

You must be trolling.
Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
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4/12/2014 9:56:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 3:19:00 PM, Daktoria wrote:
At 4/12/2014 2:27:05 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:12:21 PM, Daktoria wrote:
Can we focus on a degenerate workers state here?

Can you not conflate socialism with communism?

The presumption is socialism healthily evolves to communism.

Only in some versions of it.
Daktoria
Posts: 497
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4/12/2014 11:20:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 5:20:16 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 3:19:00 PM, Daktoria wrote:
At 4/12/2014 2:27:05 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:12:21 PM, Daktoria wrote:
Can we focus on a degenerate workers state here?

Can you not conflate socialism with communism?

The presumption is socialism healthily evolves to communism.

Right. And that's an ignorant and false presumption.

Sorry, are you being sarcastic?

If you're not, then please source where socialists are content with not evolving to communism.
Daktoria
Posts: 497
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4/12/2014 11:21:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 5:21:12 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 3:25:25 PM, Daktoria wrote:
At 4/12/2014 2:06:30 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/10/2014 11:51:10 PM, Daktoria wrote:
How can socialism avoid becoming a degenerate workers state?

By keeping the mantra of "you gotta do what you gotta do" alive.

Does democracy always become a popularity contest where bureaucrats focus more on appearing productive than being productive?
Democracies are always a popularity contest.
If you are referring to the U.S., then, yes, looking busy is always good for business.
I think of the Lilly Lebgerger Act, that Obama signed, which was viewed as super great for women's pay issues. The only problem? All it did was expand the statute of limitations, which signifies the current laws just don't seem to be working.

The problem is "you do what you gotta do" depends on the life at hand.

For example, in democracy, people can engage in a popularity contest to say the unpopular aren't supporting others despite how they're actually being supportive.

Instead of being productive, people compete to be popular, so socialism degenerates into people labeling each other as unproductive while they lazily say they're doing all they can.

I don't really understand what you are saying. What does democracy have to do with socialism? They are independent concepts.

More sarcasm?

If you don't understand how democracy enables the working class to rule the means of production under socialism, then please review the ideology.
Daktoria
Posts: 497
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4/12/2014 11:23:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 5:29:54 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 3:55:53 PM, Daktoria wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:25:38 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 12:12:21 PM, Daktoria wrote:
Can we focus on a degenerate workers state here?


We can't focus on your preconceived notions of what you want this thread to be. I've given you some ideas to talk about and if you don't like that then provide some more of your own.

Everybody knows that the mutts are trying to suggest that Obama is leading the US into communism so let's not pretend that your interests lie somewhere else.

My preconceived notion is that socialism is a conservative ideology since it engages in historicist pragmatism which is comparable to traditionist anti-intellectualism. It denies who people are as individuals on the inside that counts, and despises creative thinking since anyone who's creative is deemed selfish according to the "commodification of labor" from the profit motive.:

I'm pretty sure you don't even know what half these terms you are using mean.

"Historist pragmatism" is a recent development.

How is socialism anti-intellectual?

Right, socialism despises creativity. I don't know about you, but I have never heard a socialist having a problem with scientists/innovators.

You're just spouting random nonsense, it's ridiculous. If you're going to haphazardly string jargon, at least make it correct.

Obama is a liberal who appreciates consumerism instead of believing in commodity fetishism leading to social alienation, so you seem rather confused.

Consumerism instead of commodity fetishism...

You have no idea what you are talking about, it seems to me. Jargon does not equal good argument.

Actually, everything I said makes sense and you're just denying the obvious and asserting the inane.

How about you defend socialism instead of picking at details that are offered as a favor to get you going? You don't need to accept them if you don't want to. Just propose what's right instead of saying what someone else is saying is wrong.
Daktoria
Posts: 497
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4/12/2014 11:24:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 5:30:41 PM, Hematite12 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 4:05:50 PM, Daktoria wrote:
At 4/11/2014 11:37:44 AM, progressivedem22 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 6:01:06 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/10/2014 11:51:10 PM, Daktoria wrote:
How can socialism avoid becoming a degenerate workers state? Does democracy always become a popularity contest where bureaucrats focus more on appearing productive than being productive?

The right wing often has trouble noticing the difference between socialism and communism. Having simple amenities like national health care and welfare do not require any state forced labor or any practices exercised by Mao or Stalin.

The right wing loves socialism. Just look at the Pentagon.

To be fair, the Pentagon is an extension of the military industrial complex which came about from the Trotskyite New York Intellectuals.

Then again, American foreign policy is neoconserative which stands for Zionism which believes in the self-determination of those who organize in kibbutzes and bunds as well as preaching they're chosen by God to be elected for salvation in judging other people's performance of good works to represent a predestined calling.

In other words, they're socialists.

You must be trolling.

You must be projecting. Learn history.
Daktoria
Posts: 497
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4/12/2014 11:27:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
If any advocates of socialism are willing to explain how their economic system can remain intact instead of leading to bureaucracy corrupting the working class, be my guest to speak up.

Otherwise, the ideology is defunct by default and deserve no credit except for those who are selfish and just want to corrupt another system.

In fact, shame on those who seek to compare socialism to other ideologies. This thread was meant as an honest assessment of socialism, and all that's been responded with is spite and mockery.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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4/12/2014 11:32:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 11:27:48 PM, Daktoria wrote:
If any advocates of socialism are willing to explain how their economic system can remain intact instead of leading to bureaucracy corrupting the working class, be my guest to speak up.

Otherwise, the ideology is defunct by default and deserve no credit except for those who are selfish and just want to corrupt another system.

In fact, shame on those who seek to compare socialism to other ideologies. This thread was meant as an honest assessment of socialism, and all that's been responded with is spite and mockery.

That's largely because the things you've been attacking aren't really considered aspects of socialism.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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4/12/2014 11:42:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 11:32:04 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 4/12/2014 11:27:48 PM, Daktoria wrote:
If any advocates of socialism are willing to explain how their economic system can remain intact instead of leading to bureaucracy corrupting the working class, be my guest to speak up.

Otherwise, the ideology is defunct by default and deserve no credit except for those who are selfish and just want to corrupt another system.

In fact, shame on those who seek to compare socialism to other ideologies. This thread was meant as an honest assessment of socialism, and all that's been responded with is spite and mockery.

That's largely because the things you've been attacking aren't really considered aspects of socialism.

I thought he was addressing the inevitable outcome.
Isn't socialism where everyone works for the government, and in turn, the government provides for them? If so, what is to stop people from exploiting the system and not working, or at least, just not working as hard as they could.

If you think of the family unit, you have moochers who will mooch. How do you stop that?
My work here is, finally, done.
Daktoria
Posts: 497
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4/12/2014 11:46:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 11:42:15 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/12/2014 11:32:04 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 4/12/2014 11:27:48 PM, Daktoria wrote:
If any advocates of socialism are willing to explain how their economic system can remain intact instead of leading to bureaucracy corrupting the working class, be my guest to speak up.

Otherwise, the ideology is defunct by default and deserve no credit except for those who are selfish and just want to corrupt another system.

In fact, shame on those who seek to compare socialism to other ideologies. This thread was meant as an honest assessment of socialism, and all that's been responded with is spite and mockery.

That's largely because the things you've been attacking aren't really considered aspects of socialism.

I thought he was addressing the inevitable outcome.
Isn't socialism where everyone works for the government, and in turn, the government provides for them? If so, what is to stop people from exploiting the system and not working, or at least, just not working as hard as they could.

If you think of the family unit, you have moochers who will mooch. How do you stop that?

What does socialism have to do with the government?

All we're talking about is democracy organizing the working class into owning and ruling the means of production.

The question deals with whether that inevitably becomes a degenerated workers state where bureaucracy substitutes the proletariat as the ruling class.
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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4/12/2014 11:48:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 11:27:48 PM, Daktoria wrote:
If any advocates of socialism are willing to explain how their economic system can remain intact instead of leading to bureaucracy corrupting the working class, be my guest to speak up.

Otherwise, the ideology is defunct by default and deserve no credit except for those who are selfish and just want to corrupt another system.

In fact, shame on those who seek to compare socialism to other ideologies. This thread was meant as an honest assessment of socialism, and all that's been responded with is spite and mockery.

Is Canada's system of government socialist? If you think so then I can anwer your questions. If you're smart enough to understand that it's not then you're a hell of a lot smarter than you are coming across!
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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4/12/2014 11:51:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 11:42:15 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/12/2014 11:32:04 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 4/12/2014 11:27:48 PM, Daktoria wrote:
If any advocates of socialism are willing to explain how their economic system can remain intact instead of leading to bureaucracy corrupting the working class, be my guest to speak up.

Otherwise, the ideology is defunct by default and deserve no credit except for those who are selfish and just want to corrupt another system.

In fact, shame on those who seek to compare socialism to other ideologies. This thread was meant as an honest assessment of socialism, and all that's been responded with is spite and mockery.

That's largely because the things you've been attacking aren't really considered aspects of socialism.

I thought he was addressing the inevitable outcome.
Isn't socialism where everyone works for the government, and in turn, the government provides for them? If so, what is to stop people from exploiting the system and not working, or at least, just not working as hard as they could.

If you think of the family unit, you have moochers who will mooch. How do you stop that?

It can be, but it doesn't have to be. Socialism is largely an economic philosophy, not a political one. If the workers control the means of production, they're certainly less likely to exploit themselves. A government here isn't necessary, though one is usually instituted representing the workers. Socialism isn't even about wealth redistribution, as popular culture misconstrues. Socialism uses the concept of fair pay for fair work. From each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution. That's socialism. Socialists believe all individuals should have basic access to all articles of consumption and public goods to allow for self-actualization. All choices, such as religion, education, marriage, employment, etc, are made by the individuals, not the state.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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4/12/2014 11:52:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 11:46:08 PM, Daktoria wrote:
At 4/12/2014 11:42:15 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/12/2014 11:32:04 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 4/12/2014 11:27:48 PM, Daktoria wrote:
If any advocates of socialism are willing to explain how their economic system can remain intact instead of leading to bureaucracy corrupting the working class, be my guest to speak up.

Otherwise, the ideology is defunct by default and deserve no credit except for those who are selfish and just want to corrupt another system.

In fact, shame on those who seek to compare socialism to other ideologies. This thread was meant as an honest assessment of socialism, and all that's been responded with is spite and mockery.

That's largely because the things you've been attacking aren't really considered aspects of socialism.

I thought he was addressing the inevitable outcome.
Isn't socialism where everyone works for the government, and in turn, the government provides for them? If so, what is to stop people from exploiting the system and not working, or at least, just not working as hard as they could.

If you think of the family unit, you have moochers who will mooch. How do you stop that?

What does socialism have to do with the government?
So....the answer to my question is no, then?
That's why I asked.

All we're talking about is democracy organizing the working class into owning and ruling the means of production.

Can you state that is simper terms for me or maybe give an example of what this is?
I'd say it sounds like unions, but it doesn't seem to quite fit the bill.

The question deals with whether that inevitably becomes a degenerated workers state where bureaucracy substitutes the proletariat as the ruling class.

I guess I also don't understand this question, either.
What does degenerated mean in this context? I guess I was thinking discouraged.
My work here is, finally, done.