Total Posts:27|Showing Posts:1-27
Jump to topic:

Update on Ukraine Episode 3

Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/11/2014 10:31:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Since no new developments have happened, or will happen until tomorrow, I will take the time to show a couple of bills floating around in congress regarding Ukraine.

Ukraine Support Act

This is a prominent act, which will effectively do the same thing we did with Israel and Ukraine. Here are a couple of things it will do......

1) Provide free US media to Ukraine.

2) Set up a investment corporation in the country.

3) Will help to devise a democratic government for Ukraine.

4) Will provide security assistance to the country.

5) Will pay assets linked to corruption

6) Will develop a judicial system for the country and law enforcement agency

7) Will increase sanctions on Russia

I'll just say it though. This is an attempt to make Ukraine into a US puppet state. Not really much different then Israel and South Korea. But who knows, maybe Ukraine would be better off under billions of dollars in US assistance.

https://www.govtrack.us...

HR 4433

Not to much to say on this one. It calls for full intervention. Personally, this is a BAD idea. Also it wants to establish several bases in Europe.

https://www.govtrack.us...

S 2183

I talked about this one earlier. It calls for free media to Ukrainian people, and I personally want this to pass.

https://www.govtrack.us...

H Res 543

I really hate this chick, but the bills ok. I haven't really got to reading it, but it calls for ascending Macedonia to Nato, to deal with the troops in Transinistria in the event of a Russian attack.

https://www.govtrack.us...
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
Kanti
Posts: 115
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/11/2014 11:17:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Nice summary of the legislative process regarding Ukraine.

I would like your opinion. You say you don't like the Ukraine Support Act because the financial support leverages US involvement in the new government. How do you think the absence of financial support would effect the new government? Particularly Russian dependence on energy.
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/12/2014 12:23:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/11/2014 11:17:56 PM, Kanti wrote:
Nice summary of the legislative process regarding Ukraine.

I would like your opinion. You say you don't like the Ukraine Support Act because the financial support leverages US involvement in the new government. How do you think the absence of financial support would effect the new government? Particularly Russian dependence on energy.

I don't think Ukraine needs financial support. Well, they do, but the rebels wont stop even if the economy did get better. Were to far down the track for that.

The problem with the support act though, is it will be another unstoppable leach on our economy, like the billions we send to Korea, Syria, Israel, and Micronesia.
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
Kanti
Posts: 115
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/12/2014 2:07:05 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 12:23:13 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 11:17:56 PM, Kanti wrote:
Nice summary of the legislative process regarding Ukraine.

I would like your opinion. You say you don't like the Ukraine Support Act because the financial support leverages US involvement in the new government. How do you think the absence of financial support would effect the new government? Particularly Russian dependence on energy.

I don't think Ukraine needs financial support. Well, they do, but the rebels wont stop even if the economy did get better. Were to far down the track for that.

The problem with the support act though, is it will be another unstoppable leach on our economy, like the billions we send to Korea, Syria, Israel, and Micronesia.

Most economists say Ukraine was so intricately connected to Russia that the economic schism leave Ukraine very vulnerable. Some say default within a couple of months is highly probable. Without financial assistance you essentially put Ukraine in a Russian vice-grip who would have a completely different outlook for Ukraine moving forward. Needless to say that probably wouldn't work out, and the country would inevitably enter a depression that parts of the country could simply not handle.

Just a question. Do you follow all congressional legislation or just legislation that pertains to Ukraine?
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/12/2014 2:09:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 2:07:05 AM, Kanti wrote:
At 4/12/2014 12:23:13 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 11:17:56 PM, Kanti wrote:
Nice summary of the legislative process regarding Ukraine.

I would like your opinion. You say you don't like the Ukraine Support Act because the financial support leverages US involvement in the new government. How do you think the absence of financial support would effect the new government? Particularly Russian dependence on energy.

I don't think Ukraine needs financial support. Well, they do, but the rebels wont stop even if the economy did get better. Were to far down the track for that.

The problem with the support act though, is it will be another unstoppable leach on our economy, like the billions we send to Korea, Syria, Israel, and Micronesia.

Most economists say Ukraine was so intricately connected to Russia that the economic schism leave Ukraine very vulnerable. Some say default within a couple of months is highly probable. Without financial assistance you essentially put Ukraine in a Russian vice-grip who would have a completely different outlook for Ukraine moving forward. Needless to say that probably wouldn't work out, and the country would inevitably enter a depression that parts of the country could simply not handle.

Just a question. Do you follow all congressional legislation or just legislation that pertains to Ukraine?

1) Ukraine did rely heavily on Russia, but through the Crimean peninsula. Its where all Russian oil left through, and they payed fees to keep a fleet in Sevastopol. With the loss of the peninsula, the economic dependence on Russia is gone, along with a vast amount of wealth.

2) I just opened a govtrack account, and I've been keeping in touch through the house and senate websites for a while now.
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/12/2014 2:11:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Another alarming thing, is the loss of harbor for Ukraine. They can't ship out of the Balkans, because Russian troops control Transinistria. And they can't ship out of Russia for obvious reasons.
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/12/2014 2:14:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 2:11:30 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
Another alarming thing, is the loss of harbor for Ukraine. They can't ship out of the Balkans, because Russian troops control Transinistria. And they can't ship out of Russia for obvious reasons.

Well, actually they do have a small land strip, but its not exactly a wealthy port like Sevastopol.
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
Kanti
Posts: 115
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/12/2014 2:21:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 2:09:57 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 2:07:05 AM, Kanti wrote:
At 4/12/2014 12:23:13 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 11:17:56 PM, Kanti wrote:
Nice summary of the legislative process regarding Ukraine.

I would like your opinion. You say you don't like the Ukraine Support Act because the financial support leverages US involvement in the new government. How do you think the absence of financial support would effect the new government? Particularly Russian dependence on energy.

I don't think Ukraine needs financial support. Well, they do, but the rebels wont stop even if the economy did get better. Were to far down the track for that.

The problem with the support act though, is it will be another unstoppable leach on our economy, like the billions we send to Korea, Syria, Israel, and Micronesia.

Most economists say Ukraine was so intricately connected to Russia that the economic schism leave Ukraine very vulnerable. Some say default within a couple of months is highly probable. Without financial assistance you essentially put Ukraine in a Russian vice-grip who would have a completely different outlook for Ukraine moving forward. Needless to say that probably wouldn't work out, and the country would inevitably enter a depression that parts of the country could simply not handle.

Just a question. Do you follow all congressional legislation or just legislation that pertains to Ukraine?

1) Ukraine did rely heavily on Russia, but through the Crimean peninsula. Its where all Russian oil left through, and they payed fees to keep a fleet in Sevastopol. With the loss of the peninsula, the economic dependence on Russia is gone, along with a vast amount of wealth.

2) I just opened a govtrack account, and I've been keeping in touch through the house and senate websites for a while now.

40% of Ukraine's energy came from Russia as well. It's unfortunate no matter how you look at it. This is going to be deep wound for the Ukrainian people. That's why I feel it's important they're able to transition into a new government, and begin to move forward as soon as possible.

I watch CSPAN all day, every day. Well, CSPAN and sports but mostly CSPAN. It's really a great source of congressional activity interests you. You can actually go to CSPANs website and find the debates on the Ukraine bill.
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/12/2014 2:23:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 2:21:37 AM, Kanti wrote:
At 4/12/2014 2:09:57 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 2:07:05 AM, Kanti wrote:
At 4/12/2014 12:23:13 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 11:17:56 PM, Kanti wrote:
Nice summary of the legislative process regarding Ukraine.

I would like your opinion. You say you don't like the Ukraine Support Act because the financial support leverages US involvement in the new government. How do you think the absence of financial support would effect the new government? Particularly Russian dependence on energy.

I don't think Ukraine needs financial support. Well, they do, but the rebels wont stop even if the economy did get better. Were to far down the track for that.

The problem with the support act though, is it will be another unstoppable leach on our economy, like the billions we send to Korea, Syria, Israel, and Micronesia.

Most economists say Ukraine was so intricately connected to Russia that the economic schism leave Ukraine very vulnerable. Some say default within a couple of months is highly probable. Without financial assistance you essentially put Ukraine in a Russian vice-grip who would have a completely different outlook for Ukraine moving forward. Needless to say that probably wouldn't work out, and the country would inevitably enter a depression that parts of the country could simply not handle.

Just a question. Do you follow all congressional legislation or just legislation that pertains to Ukraine?

1) Ukraine did rely heavily on Russia, but through the Crimean peninsula. Its where all Russian oil left through, and they payed fees to keep a fleet in Sevastopol. With the loss of the peninsula, the economic dependence on Russia is gone, along with a vast amount of wealth.

2) I just opened a govtrack account, and I've been keeping in touch through the house and senate websites for a while now.

40% of Ukraine's energy came from Russia as well. It's unfortunate no matter how you look at it. This is going to be deep wound for the Ukrainian people. That's why I feel it's important they're able to transition into a new government, and begin to move forward as soon as possible.

I watch CSPAN all day, every day. Well, CSPAN and sports but mostly CSPAN. It's really a great source of congressional activity interests you. You can actually go to CSPANs website and find the debates on the Ukraine bill.

I personally get all my news from BBC, but you really wont get much in terms of congressional updates. I get my news online, but if I do watch TV news, its usually NBC.
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/12/2014 8:35:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 12:23:13 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 11:17:56 PM, Kanti wrote:
Nice summary of the legislative process regarding Ukraine.

I would like your opinion. You say you don't like the Ukraine Support Act because the financial support leverages US involvement in the new government. How do you think the absence of financial support would effect the new government? Particularly Russian dependence on energy.

I don't think Ukraine needs financial support. Well, they do, but the rebels wont stop even if the economy did get better. Were to far down the track for that.

The problem with the support act though, is it will be another unstoppable leach on our economy, like the billions we send to Korea, Syria, Israel, and Micronesia.

I want to note that these are getting better and better, so kudos.

On the above specifically, the US waged a war of independence almost solely based on economics..."No Taxation Without Representation". This is an economic issue.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/12/2014 8:38:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 8:35:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/12/2014 12:23:13 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 11:17:56 PM, Kanti wrote:
Nice summary of the legislative process regarding Ukraine.

I would like your opinion. You say you don't like the Ukraine Support Act because the financial support leverages US involvement in the new government. How do you think the absence of financial support would effect the new government? Particularly Russian dependence on energy.

I don't think Ukraine needs financial support. Well, they do, but the rebels wont stop even if the economy did get better. Were to far down the track for that.

The problem with the support act though, is it will be another unstoppable leach on our economy, like the billions we send to Korea, Syria, Israel, and Micronesia.

I want to note that these are getting better and better, so kudos.

On the above specifically, the US waged a war of independence almost solely based on economics..."No Taxation Without Representation". This is an economic issue.

I admit, I was being way to opinionated and hypothetical with the first ones. I tried to avoid it in the last three.

Regarding whether this is an economics issue, isn't everything?
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/12/2014 8:39:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 8:38:00 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 8:35:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/12/2014 12:23:13 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 11:17:56 PM, Kanti wrote:
Nice summary of the legislative process regarding Ukraine.

I would like your opinion. You say you don't like the Ukraine Support Act because the financial support leverages US involvement in the new government. How do you think the absence of financial support would effect the new government? Particularly Russian dependence on energy.

I don't think Ukraine needs financial support. Well, they do, but the rebels wont stop even if the economy did get better. Were to far down the track for that.

The problem with the support act though, is it will be another unstoppable leach on our economy, like the billions we send to Korea, Syria, Israel, and Micronesia.

I want to note that these are getting better and better, so kudos.

On the above specifically, the US waged a war of independence almost solely based on economics..."No Taxation Without Representation". This is an economic issue.

I admit, I was being way to opinionated and hypothetical with the first ones. I tried to avoid it in the last three.

Regarding whether this is an economics issue, isn't everything?

Yes, exactly! The idea then becomes that the underlined is invalid. The rebels would indeed stop if QoL issues were better resolved.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/12/2014 8:43:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 8:39:34 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/12/2014 8:38:00 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 8:35:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/12/2014 12:23:13 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 11:17:56 PM, Kanti wrote:
Nice summary of the legislative process regarding Ukraine.

I would like your opinion. You say you don't like the Ukraine Support Act because the financial support leverages US involvement in the new government. How do you think the absence of financial support would effect the new government? Particularly Russian dependence on energy.

I don't think Ukraine needs financial support. Well, they do, but the rebels wont stop even if the economy did get better. Were to far down the track for that.

The problem with the support act though, is it will be another unstoppable leach on our economy, like the billions we send to Korea, Syria, Israel, and Micronesia.

I want to note that these are getting better and better, so kudos.

On the above specifically, the US waged a war of independence almost solely based on economics..."No Taxation Without Representation". This is an economic issue.

I admit, I was being way to opinionated and hypothetical with the first ones. I tried to avoid it in the last three.

Regarding whether this is an economics issue, isn't everything?

Yes, exactly! The idea then becomes that the underlined is invalid. The rebels would indeed stop if QoL issues were better resolved.

Well, actually that is where I begin to disagree with you. When rebels begin fighting, they develop an intense hate for the government, which undermines their sense of reason. They will continue to fight and hoist the Russian flag.

What it does do though, is it causes the population to lose support, and will lessen the influence of the rebels. Like the US in the Philippines. The Filipino war ended after the general welfare of the citizens did.

So, when questioning ourselves on how to handle this, we should think economically in the end. The free media is a must have for me, and as for what kind of aid we send, that is still troubling me.
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/12/2014 8:53:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 8:43:24 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 8:39:34 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/12/2014 8:38:00 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 8:35:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/12/2014 12:23:13 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 11:17:56 PM, Kanti wrote:
Nice summary of the legislative process regarding Ukraine.

I would like your opinion. You say you don't like the Ukraine Support Act because the financial support leverages US involvement in the new government. How do you think the absence of financial support would effect the new government? Particularly Russian dependence on energy.

I don't think Ukraine needs financial support. Well, they do, but the rebels wont stop even if the economy did get better. Were to far down the track for that.

The problem with the support act though, is it will be another unstoppable leach on our economy, like the billions we send to Korea, Syria, Israel, and Micronesia.

I want to note that these are getting better and better, so kudos.

On the above specifically, the US waged a war of independence almost solely based on economics..."No Taxation Without Representation". This is an economic issue.

I admit, I was being way to opinionated and hypothetical with the first ones. I tried to avoid it in the last three.

Regarding whether this is an economics issue, isn't everything?

Yes, exactly! The idea then becomes that the underlined is invalid. The rebels would indeed stop if QoL issues were better resolved.

Well, actually that is where I begin to disagree with you. When rebels begin fighting, they develop an intense hate for the government, which undermines their sense of reason. They will continue to fight and hoist the Russian flag.

War is not unreasonable. That's a common mistake people make, they think that war necessarily involves bloodlust, violence, gore, and madness. It's simply a different type of solution to a problem. Good war strategy involves exceptionally cogent reasoning...it's just that it deals with avoiding negatives as opposed to pursuing positives as in the business world.

What it does do though, is it causes the population to lose support, and will lessen the influence of the rebels. Like the US in the Philippines. The Filipino war ended after the general welfare of the citizens did.

So, when questioning ourselves on how to handle this, we should think economically in the end. The free media is a must have for me, and as for what kind of aid we send, that is still troubling me.

Ok, you make a good point here in that what you're pointing out is essentially others d!cking around with them. The idea would be that if others didn't take their demands seriously (and their demands would more than likely prioritize economic stability), then they're going to take matters into their own hands, which is what you're pointing out.

Now the thing is though, once they start fighting, what are the objectives they are attempting to accomplish? To any extent that these objectives are economic, the moment they are achieved they will stop fighting.

For example, let's say that the Crimea does achieve independence or Russian annexation...but the Ukraine keeps all Crimean mineral rights. This may very well be an amicable solution that would end hostilities on the Ukrainian side. I think this is exceptionally improbable...indeed I don't see the Ukraine being able to make any significant demands from Russia...just an example.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/12/2014 9:00:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 8:53:36 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/12/2014 8:43:24 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 8:39:34 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/12/2014 8:38:00 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 8:35:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/12/2014 12:23:13 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 11:17:56 PM, Kanti wrote:
Nice summary of the legislative process regarding Ukraine.

I would like your opinion. You say you don't like the Ukraine Support Act because the financial support leverages US involvement in the new government. How do you think the absence of financial support would effect the new government? Particularly Russian dependence on energy.

I don't think Ukraine needs financial support. Well, they do, but the rebels wont stop even if the economy did get better. Were to far down the track for that.

The problem with the support act though, is it will be another unstoppable leach on our economy, like the billions we send to Korea, Syria, Israel, and Micronesia.

I want to note that these are getting better and better, so kudos.

On the above specifically, the US waged a war of independence almost solely based on economics..."No Taxation Without Representation". This is an economic issue.

I admit, I was being way to opinionated and hypothetical with the first ones. I tried to avoid it in the last three.

Regarding whether this is an economics issue, isn't everything?

Yes, exactly! The idea then becomes that the underlined is invalid. The rebels would indeed stop if QoL issues were better resolved.

Well, actually that is where I begin to disagree with you. When rebels begin fighting, they develop an intense hate for the government, which undermines their sense of reason. They will continue to fight and hoist the Russian flag.

War is not unreasonable. That's a common mistake people make, they think that war necessarily involves bloodlust, violence, gore, and madness. It's simply a different type of solution to a problem. Good war strategy involves exceptionally cogent reasoning...it's just that it deals with avoiding negatives as opposed to pursuing positives as in the business world.

What it does do though, is it causes the population to lose support, and will lessen the influence of the rebels. Like the US in the Philippines. The Filipino war ended after the general welfare of the citizens did.

So, when questioning ourselves on how to handle this, we should think economically in the end. The free media is a must have for me, and as for what kind of aid we send, that is still troubling me.

Ok, you make a good point here in that what you're pointing out is essentially others d!cking around with them. The idea would be that if others didn't take their demands seriously (and their demands would more than likely prioritize economic stability), then they're going to take matters into their own hands, which is what you're pointing out.

Now the thing is though, once they start fighting, what are the objectives they are attempting to accomplish? To any extent that these objectives are economic, the moment they are achieved they will stop fighting.
The objectives have been quite clear. The rebels occupying the government buildings have tried to host referendums to secede from Ukraine. Which leads me to believe the objective is secession.

For example, let's say that the Crimea does achieve independence or Russian annexation...but the Ukraine keeps all Crimean mineral rights. This may very well be an amicable solution that would end hostilities on the Ukrainian side. I think this is exceptionally improbable...indeed I don't see the Ukraine being able to make any significant demands from Russia...just an example.

its highly unlikely that Ukraine will recover by any economic solution. Crimea was important for its position on the black sea. It made its money through being a shipping port for the black seas nations. While perhaps a trade passage agreement could be made, they will never restore the shipping industry.

I'm still tempted to fight this on ideological grounds though. It seems Russia is not going to let up on Crimea, but it pisses me off to see a country just abuse international law like that.

None the less, the rational part of me is telling Ukraine to just let it go.
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/12/2014 9:00:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 8:53:36 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/12/2014 8:43:24 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 8:39:34 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/12/2014 8:38:00 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 8:35:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/12/2014 12:23:13 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 11:17:56 PM, Kanti wrote:
Nice summary of the legislative process regarding Ukraine.

I would like your opinion. You say you don't like the Ukraine Support Act because the financial support leverages US involvement in the new government. How do you think the absence of financial support would effect the new government? Particularly Russian dependence on energy.

I don't think Ukraine needs financial support. Well, they do, but the rebels wont stop even if the economy did get better. Were to far down the track for that.

The problem with the support act though, is it will be another unstoppable leach on our economy, like the billions we send to Korea, Syria, Israel, and Micronesia.

I want to note that these are getting better and better, so kudos.

On the above specifically, the US waged a war of independence almost solely based on economics..."No Taxation Without Representation". This is an economic issue.

I admit, I was being way to opinionated and hypothetical with the first ones. I tried to avoid it in the last three.

Regarding whether this is an economics issue, isn't everything?

Yes, exactly! The idea then becomes that the underlined is invalid. The rebels would indeed stop if QoL issues were better resolved.

Well, actually that is where I begin to disagree with you. When rebels begin fighting, they develop an intense hate for the government, which undermines their sense of reason. They will continue to fight and hoist the Russian flag.

War is not unreasonable. That's a common mistake people make, they think that war necessarily involves bloodlust, violence, gore, and madness. It's simply a different type of solution to a problem. Good war strategy involves exceptionally cogent reasoning...it's just that it deals with avoiding negatives as opposed to pursuing positives as in the business world.

What it does do though, is it causes the population to lose support, and will lessen the influence of the rebels. Like the US in the Philippines. The Filipino war ended after the general welfare of the citizens did.

So, when questioning ourselves on how to handle this, we should think economically in the end. The free media is a must have for me, and as for what kind of aid we send, that is still troubling me.

Ok, you make a good point here in that what you're pointing out is essentially others d!cking around with them. The idea would be that if others didn't take their demands seriously (and their demands would more than likely prioritize economic stability), then they're going to take matters into their own hands, which is what you're pointing out.

Now the thing is though, once they start fighting, what are the objectives they are attempting to accomplish? To any extent that these objectives are economic, the moment they are achieved they will stop fighting.
The objectives have been quite clear. The rebels occupying the government buildings have tried to host referendums to secede from Ukraine. Which leads me to believe the objective is secession.

For example, let's say that the Crimea does achieve independence or Russian annexation...but the Ukraine keeps all Crimean mineral rights. This may very well be an amicable solution that would end hostilities on the Ukrainian side. I think this is exceptionally improbable...indeed I don't see the Ukraine being able to make any significant demands from Russia...just an example.

its highly unlikely that Ukraine will recover by any economic solution. Crimea was important for its position on the black sea. It made its money through being a shipping port for the black seas nations. While perhaps a trade passage agreement could be made, they will never restore the shipping industry.

I'm still tempted to fight this on ideological grounds though. It seems Russia is not going to let up on Crimea, but it pisses me off to see a country just abuse international law like that.

None the less, the rational part of me is telling Ukraine to just let it go.
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
monty1
Posts: 1,084
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/12/2014 11:21:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 9:00:31 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 8:53:36 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/12/2014 8:43:24 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 8:39:34 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/12/2014 8:38:00 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 8:35:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/12/2014 12:23:13 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/11/2014 11:17:56 PM, Kanti wrote:
Nice summary of the legislative process regarding Ukraine.

I would like your opinion. You say you don't like the Ukraine Support Act because the financial support leverages US involvement in the new government. How do you think the absence of financial support would effect the new government? Particularly Russian dependence on energy.

I don't think Ukraine needs financial support. Well, they do, but the rebels wont stop even if the economy did get better. Were to far down the track for that.

The problem with the support act though, is it will be another unstoppable leach on our economy, like the billions we send to Korea, Syria, Israel, and Micronesia.

I want to note that these are getting better and better, so kudos.

On the above specifically, the US waged a war of independence almost solely based on economics..."No Taxation Without Representation". This is an economic issue.

I admit, I was being way to opinionated and hypothetical with the first ones. I tried to avoid it in the last three.

Regarding whether this is an economics issue, isn't everything?

Yes, exactly! The idea then becomes that the underlined is invalid. The rebels would indeed stop if QoL issues were better resolved.

Well, actually that is where I begin to disagree with you. When rebels begin fighting, they develop an intense hate for the government, which undermines their sense of reason. They will continue to fight and hoist the Russian flag.

War is not unreasonable. That's a common mistake people make, they think that war necessarily involves bloodlust, violence, gore, and madness. It's simply a different type of solution to a problem. Good war strategy involves exceptionally cogent reasoning...it's just that it deals with avoiding negatives as opposed to pursuing positives as in the business world.

What it does do though, is it causes the population to lose support, and will lessen the influence of the rebels. Like the US in the Philippines. The Filipino war ended after the general welfare of the citizens did.

So, when questioning ourselves on how to handle this, we should think economically in the end. The free media is a must have for me, and as for what kind of aid we send, that is still troubling me.

Ok, you make a good point here in that what you're pointing out is essentially others d!cking around with them. The idea would be that if others didn't take their demands seriously (and their demands would more than likely prioritize economic stability), then they're going to take matters into their own hands, which is what you're pointing out.

Now the thing is though, once they start fighting, what are the objectives they are attempting to accomplish? To any extent that these objectives are economic, the moment they are achieved they will stop fighting.
The objectives have been quite clear. The rebels occupying the government buildings have tried to host referendums to secede from Ukraine. Which leads me to believe the objective is secession.

For example, let's say that the Crimea does achieve independence or Russian annexation...but the Ukraine keeps all Crimean mineral rights. This may very well be an amicable solution that would end hostilities on the Ukrainian side. I think this is exceptionally improbable...indeed I don't see the Ukraine being able to make any significant demands from Russia...just an example.

its highly unlikely that Ukraine will recover by any economic solution. Crimea was important for its position on the black sea. It made its money through being a shipping port for the black seas nations. While perhaps a trade passage agreement could be made, they will never restore the shipping industry.

I'm still tempted to fight this on ideological grounds though. It seems Russia is not going to let up on Crimea, but it pisses me off to see a country just abuse international law like that.

None the less, the rational part of me is telling Ukraine to just let it go.

You're tempted to fight this? You're not old enough but when you grow up you could get a gun and maybe join the army. That is, if you could pass the minimum requirement for intelligence?
monty1
Posts: 1,084
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/12/2014 1:14:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
The Ukraine won't be an easy takeover for the US/Nato. It's obvious now that the people are going to turn toward Russia.

http://rt.com...

And when they do it's going to be a costly loss of face for the US.
In other news, the American people are still favouring Russia over more US led unrest that usually leads to war.
ararmer1919
Posts: 362
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/12/2014 4:55:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 1:14:07 PM, monty1 wrote:
The Ukraine won't be an easy takeover for the US/Nato. It's obvious now that the people are going to turn toward Russia.

http://rt.com...

And when they do it's going to be a costly loss of face for the US.
In other news, the American people are still favouring Russia over more US led unrest that usually leads to war.

Shut. Up. Go. Away.
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/12/2014 4:56:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 4:55:21 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 1:14:07 PM, monty1 wrote:
The Ukraine won't be an easy takeover for the US/Nato. It's obvious now that the people are going to turn toward Russia.

http://rt.com...

And when they do it's going to be a costly loss of face for the US.
In other news, the American people are still favouring Russia over more US led unrest that usually leads to war.

Shut. Up. Go. Away.

Like his sourcing of RT to. Asked around, and its just not us who want him banned
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
Kanti
Posts: 115
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/12/2014 5:29:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 4:56:25 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 4:55:21 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 1:14:07 PM, monty1 wrote:
The Ukraine won't be an easy takeover for the US/Nato. It's obvious now that the people are going to turn toward Russia.

http://rt.com...

And when they do it's going to be a costly loss of face for the US.
In other news, the American people are still favouring Russia over more US led unrest that usually leads to war.

Shut. Up. Go. Away.

Like his sourcing of RT to. Asked around, and its just not us who want him banned

RT is basically the FoxNews for Russian rhetoric.

I've only been on here for a month, and he wracks my brain. Thank god all the anti-American users are not as blatant.
monty1
Posts: 1,084
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/12/2014 11:05:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/12/2014 4:56:25 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 4:55:21 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 4/12/2014 1:14:07 PM, monty1 wrote:
The Ukraine won't be an easy takeover for the US/Nato. It's obvious now that the people are going to turn toward Russia.

http://rt.com...

And when they do it's going to be a costly loss of face for the US.
In other news, the American people are still favouring Russia over more US led unrest that usually leads to war.

Shut. Up. Go. Away.

Like his sourcing of RT to. Asked around, and its just not us who want him banned

When teenage mutts go to work to have a person banned you know for sure that the person is starting to stick in their craws.

The immature and mentally lacking will always attempt to ease their pain by having somebody do the work for them when they are incapable of doing their own dirty work. Rabid extreme right, frothing at the mouth, Nazism defined!
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/13/2014 12:29:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
It turns out another building was stormed. A police station this time :/. Well, it seems that the rebels now got their hands on about 100 rifles and shotguns.
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/13/2014 12:30:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 12:29:40 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
It turns out another building was stormed. A police station this time :/. Well, it seems that the rebels now got their hands on about 100 rifles and shotguns.

http://www.reuters.com...
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
monty1
Posts: 1,084
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/13/2014 12:30:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 12:30:23 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/13/2014 12:29:40 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
It turns out another building was stormed. A police station this time :/. Well, it seems that the rebels now got their hands on about 100 rifles and shotguns.

http://www.reuters.com...

See episode 4 to hear more of his meaningless babbling.
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
4/13/2014 12:35:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I actually have to add a post, just so the report post button will show for Monty1. This is how pathetic he has gotten
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party