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Update on Ukraine Episode 4

Jifpop09
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4/13/2014 5:00:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
A couple things have happened in the past 12 hours. Pretty significant things actually. The city of Slaviansk, has fallen. Lets go chronological on this. Pro Russian forces, which I don't think is disputed any longer, have fired on a police station, and have took it over. After the station was taken over, the rebels set barricades all over the city, and have established outposts along the roads.

Now, what makes these rebels different then the ones who took over Donetsk, is that these men have attained military grade equipment. Fatigues, Insignia's, rifles, body armor, and helmets. Now why is this important? Because it means that someone has supplied, organized, and conducted this attack. Who was it? It could be anyone from a wealthy business man, Putin, or for all we know the US. I have strong suspicion they were supplied by the Russians though. And, for some reason, of the 100 or so photos we have of the rebels, they all appear to be masked...... (Just saying)

Anyways, in response to the takeover, Ukraine sent a anti terrorist force to suppress the rebels in the city. We actually have no report of what happened yet, but some are saying that the troops have already engaged.

Lastly, Russia has finalized that it will protect eastern Ukraine Russian citizens. Oh boy, Ukraine's in trouble now! Now here is my comprehensive plan for what needs to be done......

- Macedonia needs to be ascended into NATO immediately. No one can deny that the US might get pulled into this conflict. Polls have already been ran, and a lot of the GOP supporters are telling us to intervene (which is ridiculous IMO). Macedonia has been working on NATO membership for awhile now, and this is when we might need them most.

- Contrary to a lot of peoples opinions, I know that Russia wont attack if a third party gets involved before hand. People might disagree with me, but I think a small NATO force should be sent to help the government. I doubt that Russia, who we have reasonable suspicion will intervene, will move in with NATO forces in the area.

- We need to get some kind of support bill through congress quick. This could be anything from the Support Act to the Free media act. I personally think the support act needs to be revised, for some kind of long term payment from Ukraine. The Act is certainly expensive.

- Military support is out of the question in my opinion. But, I would not mind the if we sent intelligence, medical, and tactical support. Those options are much less costly, and if we do, it should not be just us who do.

That's at least what I devised as a reasonable course of action. I'm a bit disappointed in the lack of preparations taken by congress towards Ukraine. Obviously they must of seen one red flag that we could get pulled into this. We don't really have to many options after all these threats we sent the Duma.
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monty1
Posts: 1,084
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4/13/2014 12:29:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 5:00:10 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
A couple things have happened in the past 12 hours. Pretty significant things actually. The city of Slaviansk, has fallen. Lets go chronological on this. Pro Russian forces, which I don't think is disputed any longer, have fired on a police station, and have took it over. After the station was taken over, the rebels set barricades all over the city, and have established outposts along the roads.

Now, what makes these rebels different then the ones who took over Donetsk, is that these men have attained military grade equipment. Fatigues, Insignia's, rifles, body armor, and helmets. Now why is this important? Because it means that someone has supplied, organized, and conducted this attack. Who was it? It could be anyone from a wealthy business man, Putin, or for all we know the US. I have strong suspicion they were supplied by the Russians though. And, for some reason, of the 100 or so photos we have of the rebels, they all appear to be masked...... (Just saying)

Anyways, in response to the takeover, Ukraine sent a anti terrorist force to suppress the rebels in the city. We actually have no report of what happened yet, but some are saying that the troops have already engaged.

Lastly, Russia has finalized that it will protect eastern Ukraine Russian citizens. Oh boy, Ukraine's in trouble now! Now here is my comprehensive plan for what needs to be done......

- Macedonia needs to be ascended into NATO immediately. No one can deny that the US might get pulled into this conflict. Polls have already been ran, and a lot of the GOP supporters are telling us to intervene (which is ridiculous IMO). Macedonia has been working on NATO membership for awhile now, and this is when we might need them most.

- Contrary to a lot of peoples opinions, I know that Russia wont attack if a third party gets involved before hand. People might disagree with me, but I think a small NATO force should be sent to help the government. I doubt that Russia, who we have reasonable suspicion will intervene, will move in with NATO forces in the area.

- We need to get some kind of support bill through congress quick. This could be anything from the Support Act to the Free media act. I personally think the support act needs to be revised, for some kind of long term payment from Ukraine. The Act is certainly expensive.

- Military support is out of the question in my opinion. But, I would not mind the if we sent intelligence, medical, and tactical support. Those options are much less costly, and if we do, it should not be just us who do.

That's at least what I devised as a reasonable course of action. I'm a bit disappointed in the lack of preparations taken by congress towards Ukraine. Obviously they must of seen one red flag that we could get pulled into this. We don't really have to many options after all these threats we sent the Duma.

All just your wishful thinking while you fail to understand that the propaganda effort needs to succeed before the US congress will make any further warmongering moves. So in the meantime, how about a nice ice cream cone to make you feel better? Bubble gum flavour?
Jifpop09
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4/13/2014 3:04:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Alright, I looked into it further and NATO has drawn the same conclusion I did. Russian troops are in East Ukraine they say.
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Jifpop09
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4/13/2014 3:07:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 3:04:13 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
Alright, I looked into it further and NATO has drawn the same conclusion I did. Russian troops are in East Ukraine they say.

I'm actually done avoiding hypothetical assumptions. This is beyond a doubt. Either Russia is supplying the rebels with Russian hardware, or someones doing it to make it appear that Russia's supplying them (unlikely).

Both NATO and Ukraine accused Russia of being in control of the rebel force. Can't say I disagree.
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monty1
Posts: 1,084
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4/13/2014 7:32:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 3:07:07 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/13/2014 3:04:13 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
Alright, I looked into it further and NATO has drawn the same conclusion I did. Russian troops are in East Ukraine they say.

I'm actually done avoiding hypothetical assumptions. This is beyond a doubt. Either Russia is supplying the rebels with Russian hardware, or someones doing it to make it appear that Russia's supplying them (unlikely).

Both NATO and Ukraine accused Russia of being in control of the rebel force. Can't say I disagree.

Undoubtedly, the propaganda spinning and US bullsh!t is coming out of both your ears and mouth at the same time now.
Jifpop09
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4/13/2014 7:38:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 7:32:16 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/13/2014 3:07:07 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/13/2014 3:04:13 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
Alright, I looked into it further and NATO has drawn the same conclusion I did. Russian troops are in East Ukraine they say.

I'm actually done avoiding hypothetical assumptions. This is beyond a doubt. Either Russia is supplying the rebels with Russian hardware, or someones doing it to make it appear that Russia's supplying them (unlikely).

Both NATO and Ukraine accused Russia of being in control of the rebel force. Can't say I disagree.

Undoubtedly, the propaganda spinning and US bullsh!t is coming out of both your ears and mouth at the same time now.

Coming from the guy who keeps quoting RT. If your not aware, Russia scores 112 ranks lower then the US in media freedom, and the Kremlin reserves near unlimited censorship power. The US government has no stake in propaganda, or does Europe. That would be nationalization and its a communist policy. The sites that been most vocal about ukraine is in fact actually Russian, and it was just censored.
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Jifpop09
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4/13/2014 7:43:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 7:32:16 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/13/2014 3:07:07 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/13/2014 3:04:13 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
Alright, I looked into it further and NATO has drawn the same conclusion I did. Russian troops are in East Ukraine they say.

I'm actually done avoiding hypothetical assumptions. This is beyond a doubt. Either Russia is supplying the rebels with Russian hardware, or someones doing it to make it appear that Russia's supplying them (unlikely).

Both NATO and Ukraine accused Russia of being in control of the rebel force. Can't say I disagree.

Undoubtedly, the propaganda spinning and US bullsh!t is coming out of both your ears and mouth at the same time now.

(The US is better then Canada)
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wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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4/14/2014 2:03:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
If you want to provide a believable update, it would probably behoove you to provide whatever sources led you to make this post.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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4/14/2014 11:40:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 7:43:42 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/13/2014 7:32:16 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/13/2014 3:07:07 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/13/2014 3:04:13 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
Alright, I looked into it further and NATO has drawn the same conclusion I did. Russian troops are in East Ukraine they say.

I'm actually done avoiding hypothetical assumptions. This is beyond a doubt. Either Russia is supplying the rebels with Russian hardware, or someones doing it to make it appear that Russia's supplying them (unlikely).

Both NATO and Ukraine accused Russia of being in control of the rebel force. Can't say I disagree.

Undoubtedly, the propaganda spinning and US bullsh!t is coming out of both your ears and mouth at the same time now.

(The US is better then Canada)

The word 'then' is not a substitute for the word 'than'. My dad can beat up your dad! How about a nice ice cream cone for you? !!!
Jifpop09
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4/14/2014 1:54:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 2:03:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you want to provide a believable update, it would probably behoove you to provide whatever sources led you to make this post.

If I say Russia, you always come to their defense -_-

http://uk.reuters.com...

http://www.cbc.ca...

http://www.reuters.com...

http://www.thewire.com...
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wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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4/14/2014 1:57:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 1:54:40 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:03:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you want to provide a believable update, it would probably behoove you to provide whatever sources led you to make this post.

If I say Russia, you always come to their defense -_-


http://uk.reuters.com...

http://www.cbc.ca...

http://www.reuters.com...

http://www.thewire.com...

It's not that I come to their defense, but that I find your perspective on this specific issue to be extremely one-sided.

"There's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." - GoT
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Jifpop09
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4/14/2014 2:16:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 1:57:12 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:54:40 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:03:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you want to provide a believable update, it would probably behoove you to provide whatever sources led you to make this post.

If I say Russia, you always come to their defense -_-


http://uk.reuters.com...

http://www.cbc.ca...

http://www.reuters.com...

http://www.thewire.com...

It's not that I come to their defense, but that I find your perspective on this specific issue to be extremely one-sided.

"There's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." - GoT

Can't disagree with this, but the evidence of Russian misintent is simply to high to plausibly deny now. The Ukrainian government definitely is not helping the situation, but Russia seems to be the majority of the problem.

You know what, I'll even go ahead and blame the US for some of this, but Russia is certainly the elephant. I'll make another post of what we do know about the situation below this.
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monty1
Posts: 1,084
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4/14/2014 2:23:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 2:16:03 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:57:12 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:54:40 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:03:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you want to provide a believable update, it would probably behoove you to provide whatever sources led you to make this post.

If I say Russia, you always come to their defense -_-


http://uk.reuters.com...

http://www.cbc.ca...

http://www.reuters.com...

http://www.thewire.com...

It's not that I come to their defense, but that I find your perspective on this specific issue to be extremely one-sided.

"There's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." - GoT

Can't disagree with this, but the evidence of Russian misintent is simply to high to plausibly deny now. The Ukrainian government definitely is not helping the situation, but Russia seems to be the majority of the problem.

You know what, I'll even go ahead and blame the US for some of this, but Russia is certainly the elephant. I'll make another post of what we do know about the situation below this.

You're a pretty scary kid. If you are anything near being representative of America's teens then the world is in bigger trouble than it was during Hitler's reign of terror.

I wonder if you really are or you're just a misfit among the few. We know that you're among the 25% or so of Americans that blame Russia but we don't know if that 25% are so adamant as you are.
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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4/14/2014 2:26:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 2:23:25 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:16:03 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:57:12 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:54:40 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:03:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you want to provide a believable update, it would probably behoove you to provide whatever sources led you to make this post.

If I say Russia, you always come to their defense -_-


http://uk.reuters.com...

http://www.cbc.ca...

http://www.reuters.com...

http://www.thewire.com...

It's not that I come to their defense, but that I find your perspective on this specific issue to be extremely one-sided.

"There's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." - GoT

Can't disagree with this, but the evidence of Russian misintent is simply to high to plausibly deny now. The Ukrainian government definitely is not helping the situation, but Russia seems to be the majority of the problem.

You know what, I'll even go ahead and blame the US for some of this, but Russia is certainly the elephant. I'll make another post of what we do know about the situation below this.

You're a pretty scary kid. If you are anything near being representative of America's teens then the world is in bigger trouble than it was during Hitler's reign of terror.

I wonder if you really are or you're just a misfit among the few. We know that you're among the 25% or so of Americans that blame Russia but we don't know if that 25% are so adamant as you are.

Why haven't you been banned yet? Half of the sites prominent users said they want you banned. If you want to debate this, then refute my point, but stop using ad-hominems.
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monty1
Posts: 1,084
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4/14/2014 2:26:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 2:16:03 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:57:12 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:54:40 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:03:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you want to provide a believable update, it would probably behoove you to provide whatever sources led you to make this post.

If I say Russia, you always come to their defense -_-


http://uk.reuters.com...

http://www.cbc.ca...

http://www.reuters.com...

http://www.thewire.com...

It's not that I come to their defense, but that I find your perspective on this specific issue to be extremely one-sided.

"There's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." - GoT

Can't disagree with this, but the evidence of Russian misintent is simply to high to plausibly deny now. The Ukrainian government definitely is not helping the situation, but Russia seems to be the majority of the problem.

You know what, I'll even go ahead and blame the US for some of this, but Russia is certainly the elephant. I'll make another post of what we do know about the situation below this.

And so why not go ahead and tell us how you blame the US in part for this? Let's see how convincing you can make it. I'm betting you just said that in order to try to coax him over to your way of thinking with the proverbial carrot on a stick. Go ahead and prove to us that you're not just a phony mutt.
monty1
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4/14/2014 2:30:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 2:26:06 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:23:25 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:16:03 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:57:12 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:54:40 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:03:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you want to provide a believable update, it would probably behoove you to provide whatever sources led you to make this post.

If I say Russia, you always come to their defense -_-


http://uk.reuters.com...

http://www.cbc.ca...

http://www.reuters.com...

http://www.thewire.com...

It's not that I come to their defense, but that I find your perspective on this specific issue to be extremely one-sided.

"There's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." - GoT

Can't disagree with this, but the evidence of Russian misintent is simply to high to plausibly deny now. The Ukrainian government definitely is not helping the situation, but Russia seems to be the majority of the problem.

You know what, I'll even go ahead and blame the US for some of this, but Russia is certainly the elephant. I'll make another post of what we do know about the situation below this.

You're a pretty scary kid. If you are anything near being representative of America's teens then the world is in bigger trouble than it was during Hitler's reign of terror.

I wonder if you really are or you're just a misfit among the few. We know that you're among the 25% or so of Americans that blame Russia but we don't know if that 25% are so adamant as you are.

Why haven't you been banned yet? Half of the sites prominent users said they want you banned. If you want to debate this, then refute my point, but stop using ad-hominems.

Reason being is that half the site's users are brainwashed Americans who can't abide by an argument that upsets their dogma and refutes their evil agenda that's working in their heads. Banning me or anyone else from a forum that you don't agree with is equivalent to banning the written word. Does that remind you of banning books? Or burning books? Which country has attempted to do that? You fukking little Nazi!
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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4/14/2014 2:32:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 2:30:02 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:26:06 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:23:25 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:16:03 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:57:12 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:54:40 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:03:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you want to provide a believable update, it would probably behoove you to provide whatever sources led you to make this post.

If I say Russia, you always come to their defense -_-


http://uk.reuters.com...

http://www.cbc.ca...

http://www.reuters.com...

http://www.thewire.com...

It's not that I come to their defense, but that I find your perspective on this specific issue to be extremely one-sided.

"There's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." - GoT

Can't disagree with this, but the evidence of Russian misintent is simply to high to plausibly deny now. The Ukrainian government definitely is not helping the situation, but Russia seems to be the majority of the problem.

You know what, I'll even go ahead and blame the US for some of this, but Russia is certainly the elephant. I'll make another post of what we do know about the situation below this.

You're a pretty scary kid. If you are anything near being representative of America's teens then the world is in bigger trouble than it was during Hitler's reign of terror.

I wonder if you really are or you're just a misfit among the few. We know that you're among the 25% or so of Americans that blame Russia but we don't know if that 25% are so adamant as you are.

Why haven't you been banned yet? Half of the sites prominent users said they want you banned. If you want to debate this, then refute my point, but stop using ad-hominems.

Reason being is that half the site's users are brainwashed Americans who can't abide by an argument that upsets their dogma and refutes their evil agenda that's working in their heads. Banning me or anyone else from a forum that you don't agree with is equivalent to banning the written word. Does that remind you of banning books? Or burning books? Which country has attempted to do that? You fukking little Nazi!

Its alright to disagree, but stop acting like a child and using ad hominens. You attacking my arguments by insult is pathetic, and shows you have no actual logic of your own.
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monty1
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4/14/2014 2:40:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I have no need to debate with you jiffypop, I only need to insult you when you start to fall off the rails with your ignorant dogmatic ranting. You're well past the point of reason. I would advise you to watch where your anger with the world takes you as you become big enough and strong enough to intimidate people physically.

Of join up with the KKK so they can watch your back?
Jifpop09
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4/14/2014 2:42:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
What we do know about the Ukraine Crisis

- The organized forces that attacked and occupied Horlivka and Slaviansk are confirmed to be pro-russian.

- The organized forces that attacked and occupied Horlivka and Slaviansk are equipped with Russian fatigues, weapons, and armor.

- The organized forces that attacked and occupied Horlivka and Slaviansk are accompanied by trained and masked soldiers without insignia, presumably Russian.

- The 5 recent attacks throughout east Ukraine have all been concentrated in the Donetsk Oblast.

- Donetsk Oblast is mineral rich.

- Russian mining is the second most profitable business, and is in direct competition with Ukraine.

- Russia has issued a statement saying that they will not invade, but will protect ethnic Russians, and are in support of unification referendums.

What can be reasonably assumed

- The organized rebel force is being supplied and coordinated by Russia.

- The masked agents without insignia are the same Russian agents seen in Crimea.

- Russia might be trying to do what they did in Crimea, in an attempt to monopolize mineral exports, as they just did with oil in Eastern Europe/Central Asia.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyways, this is my theory, and I'm only putting it up to show that Ukraine has reason to be cautious. Not that these things will happen or are happening. But the first part is definitely the conclusions that have been proven BRD.
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monty1
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4/14/2014 2:50:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 1:57:12 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:54:40 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:03:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you want to provide a believable update, it would probably behoove you to provide whatever sources led you to make this post.

If I say Russia, you always come to their defense -_-


http://uk.reuters.com...

http://www.cbc.ca...

http://www.reuters.com...

http://www.thewire.com...

It's not that I come to their defense, but that I find your perspective on this specific issue to be extremely one-sided.

"There's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." - GoT

Do you think he's representative of America's next generation of adults? Or is he just a fringe element that we don't need to be concerned about? Sometimes the perspective we gain from listening to a few on a forum such as this can lead us to believing they are the standard.

And then, even if they are of the fringe, are they still dangerous because of their outspokenness and that a few can be too influencial?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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4/14/2014 2:52:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 2:50:31 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:57:12 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:54:40 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:03:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you want to provide a believable update, it would probably behoove you to provide whatever sources led you to make this post.

If I say Russia, you always come to their defense -_-


http://uk.reuters.com...

http://www.cbc.ca...

http://www.reuters.com...

http://www.thewire.com...

It's not that I come to their defense, but that I find your perspective on this specific issue to be extremely one-sided.

"There's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." - GoT

Do you think he's representative of America's next generation of adults? Or is he just a fringe element that we don't need to be concerned about? Sometimes the perspective we gain from listening to a few on a forum such as this can lead us to believing they are the standard.

And then, even if they are of the fringe, are they still dangerous because of their outspokenness and that a few can be too influencial?

I don't understand how this discussion is about the personal qualities of jifpop or an argument about America's next generation. This is a discussion about the Ukraine.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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4/14/2014 3:02:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 2:52:29 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:50:31 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:57:12 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:54:40 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:03:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you want to provide a believable update, it would probably behoove you to provide whatever sources led you to make this post.

If I say Russia, you always come to their defense -_-


http://uk.reuters.com...

http://www.cbc.ca...

http://www.reuters.com...

http://www.thewire.com...

It's not that I come to their defense, but that I find your perspective on this specific issue to be extremely one-sided.

"There's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." - GoT

Do you think he's representative of America's next generation of adults? Or is he just a fringe element that we don't need to be concerned about? Sometimes the perspective we gain from listening to a few on a forum such as this can lead us to believing they are the standard.

And then, even if they are of the fringe, are they still dangerous because of their outspokenness and that a few can be too influencial?

I don't understand how this discussion is about the personal qualities of jifpop or an argument about America's next generation. This is a discussion about the Ukraine.

The reason being, his ideas are so outright foolish and extremist that it causes me to wonder if there are a lot more of his ilk. Therefore, I can see a real possibility of what's happening in the Ukraine right now with US interference could be only a taste of what's to come. And then, people of his ilk are the sort of people who, if given power, are the type to be advocates of US military action. In fact, he and others like him on this forum have already advocated that. War with Russia? Is that important enough for you to talk about? That's why I'm interested so don't pretend you are rising above it all.

http://rt.com...

CIA director Brennan in the Ukraine. Read something coming from the 'dark' side if you will.

Now that you have betrayed the fact that you know something of which you speak, don't try to pretend that what I'm asking for is irrelevant. It won't sell.
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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4/14/2014 3:06:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 3:02:56 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:52:29 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:50:31 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:57:12 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:54:40 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:03:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you want to provide a believable update, it would probably behoove you to provide whatever sources led you to make this post.

If I say Russia, you always come to their defense -_-


http://uk.reuters.com...

http://www.cbc.ca...

http://www.reuters.com...

http://www.thewire.com...

It's not that I come to their defense, but that I find your perspective on this specific issue to be extremely one-sided.

"There's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." - GoT

Do you think he's representative of America's next generation of adults? Or is he just a fringe element that we don't need to be concerned about? Sometimes the perspective we gain from listening to a few on a forum such as this can lead us to believing they are the standard.

And then, even if they are of the fringe, are they still dangerous because of their outspokenness and that a few can be too influencial?

I don't understand how this discussion is about the personal qualities of jifpop or an argument about America's next generation. This is a discussion about the Ukraine.

The reason being, his ideas are so outright foolish and extremist that it causes me to wonder if there are a lot more of his ilk. Therefore, I can see a real possibility of what's happening in the Ukraine right now with US interference could be only a taste of what's to come. And then, people of his ilk are the sort of people who, if given power, are the type to be advocates of US military action. In fact, he and others like him on this forum have already advocated that. War with Russia? Is that important enough for you to talk about? That's why I'm interested so don't pretend you are rising above it all.

http://rt.com...

CIA director Brennan in the Ukraine. Read something coming from the 'dark' side if you will.

Now that you have betrayed the fact that you know something of which you speak, don't try to pretend that what I'm asking for is irrelevant. It won't sell.


None of the underlined is necessary to this discussion. As it is, of course the US is involved in whatever capacity it can get away with.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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4/14/2014 3:21:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 3:06:52 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 3:02:56 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:52:29 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:50:31 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:57:12 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:54:40 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:03:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you want to provide a believable update, it would probably behoove you to provide whatever sources led you to make this post.

If I say Russia, you always come to their defense -_-


http://uk.reuters.com...

http://www.cbc.ca...

http://www.reuters.com...

http://www.thewire.com...

It's not that I come to their defense, but that I find your perspective on this specific issue to be extremely one-sided.

"There's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." - GoT

Do you think he's representative of America's next generation of adults? Or is he just a fringe element that we don't need to be concerned about? Sometimes the perspective we gain from listening to a few on a forum such as this can lead us to believing they are the standard.

And then, even if they are of the fringe, are they still dangerous because of their outspokenness and that a few can be too influencial?

I don't understand how this discussion is about the personal qualities of jifpop or an argument about America's next generation. This is a discussion about the Ukraine.

The reason being, his ideas are so outright foolish and extremist that it causes me to wonder if there are a lot more of his ilk. Therefore, I can see a real possibility of what's happening in the Ukraine right now with US interference could be only a taste of what's to come. And then, people of his ilk are the sort of people who, if given power, are the type to be advocates of US military action. In fact, he and others like him on this forum have already advocated that. War with Russia? Is that important enough for you to talk about? That's why I'm interested so don't pretend you are rising above it all.

http://rt.com...

CIA director Brennan in the Ukraine. Read something coming from the 'dark' side if you will.

Now that you have betrayed the fact that you know something of which you speak, don't try to pretend that what I'm asking for is irrelevant. It won't sell.


None of the underlined is necessary to this discussion. As it is, of course the US is involved in whatever capacity it can get away with.

I also don't like his constant sourcing of RT. I will give him the fact that its the only news network supporting Russia, but it really falls under the same category as Fox in Bias.

Which is why I've been avoiding using American site sources throughout these posts. Besides using BBC world service (which is one of the fairest networks in the world), the only site which one may determine as biased as CNN, and I think the coverage has been quite fair.

None the less, his constant ad hominens and accusations of me being brainwashed by US/NATO propaganda have no merit. He has shown that he can't have intelligent discussion without resorting to insults .
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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4/14/2014 3:26:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 2:16:03 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:57:12 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:54:40 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:03:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you want to provide a believable update, it would probably behoove you to provide whatever sources led you to make this post.

If I say Russia, you always come to their defense -_-


http://uk.reuters.com...

http://www.cbc.ca...

http://www.reuters.com...

http://www.thewire.com...

It's not that I come to their defense, but that I find your perspective on this specific issue to be extremely one-sided.

"There's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." - GoT

Can't disagree with this, but the evidence of Russian misintent is simply to high to plausibly deny now. The Ukrainian government definitely is not helping the situation, but Russia seems to be the majority of the problem.

And what exactly would be this "evidence of wrongdoing"? What international law has Russia violated, and what is the enforcement body for this law?

I've been fairly consistent myself that all that matters is self-interest in international politics.

You know what, I'll even go ahead and blame the US for some of this, but Russia is certainly the elephant. I'll make another post of what we do know about the situation below this.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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4/14/2014 3:32:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 3:26:54 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:16:03 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:57:12 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:54:40 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:03:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you want to provide a believable update, it would probably behoove you to provide whatever sources led you to make this post.

If I say Russia, you always come to their defense -_-


http://uk.reuters.com...

http://www.cbc.ca...

http://www.reuters.com...

http://www.thewire.com...

It's not that I come to their defense, but that I find your perspective on this specific issue to be extremely one-sided.

"There's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." - GoT

Can't disagree with this, but the evidence of Russian misintent is simply to high to plausibly deny now. The Ukrainian government definitely is not helping the situation, but Russia seems to be the majority of the problem.

And what exactly would be this "evidence of wrongdoing"? What international law has Russia violated, and what is the enforcement body for this law?

I've been fairly consistent myself that all that matters is self-interest in international politics.

You know what, I'll even go ahead and blame the US for some of this, but Russia is certainly the elephant. I'll make another post of what we do know about the situation below this.

1) We know for sure that Russia entered Crimea and denied it had troops for a while. A lot of the rebel unrest regarding referendums can be attributed at least partially to them.

2) They broke a international treaty, and have found having connections to voter fraud. This caused even further unrest within the country, when they could of pursued legal avenues towards protecting ethnic Russians and secession.

3) I don't need to argue that Russian agents are in the country. What their doing there is debatable, but its only stirring the pot.

4) Russia's statements supporting eastern autonomy and secession referendums, and threats that they will protect eastern Ukrainians is only making the unrest grow in strength. No genocide is taking place or will take place. That same accusation in Crimea was bogus.
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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4/14/2014 3:32:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 3:21:23 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 3:06:52 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 3:02:56 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:52:29 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:50:31 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:57:12 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:54:40 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:03:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you want to provide a believable update, it would probably behoove you to provide whatever sources led you to make this post.

If I say Russia, you always come to their defense -_-


http://uk.reuters.com...

http://www.cbc.ca...

http://www.reuters.com...

http://www.thewire.com...

It's not that I come to their defense, but that I find your perspective on this specific issue to be extremely one-sided.

"There's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." - GoT

Do you think he's representative of America's next generation of adults? Or is he just a fringe element that we don't need to be concerned about? Sometimes the perspective we gain from listening to a few on a forum such as this can lead us to believing they are the standard.

And then, even if they are of the fringe, are they still dangerous because of their outspokenness and that a few can be too influencial?

I don't understand how this discussion is about the personal qualities of jifpop or an argument about America's next generation. This is a discussion about the Ukraine.

The reason being, his ideas are so outright foolish and extremist that it causes me to wonder if there are a lot more of his ilk. Therefore, I can see a real possibility of what's happening in the Ukraine right now with US interference could be only a taste of what's to come. And then, people of his ilk are the sort of people who, if given power, are the type to be advocates of US military action. In fact, he and others like him on this forum have already advocated that. War with Russia? Is that important enough for you to talk about? That's why I'm interested so don't pretend you are rising above it all.

http://rt.com...

CIA director Brennan in the Ukraine. Read something coming from the 'dark' side if you will.

Now that you have betrayed the fact that you know something of which you speak, don't try to pretend that what I'm asking for is irrelevant. It won't sell.


None of the underlined is necessary to this discussion. As it is, of course the US is involved in whatever capacity it can get away with.

I also don't like his constant sourcing of RT. I will give him the fact that its the only news network supporting Russia, but it really falls under the same category as Fox in Bias.

Which is why I've been avoiding using American site sources throughout these posts. Besides using BBC world service (which is one of the fairest networks in the world), the only site which one may determine as biased as CNN, and I think the coverage has been quite fair.

From my experience British sources have their own ridiculous bias. The Economist comes off as being a high-minded editorial piece, but in the end that's all it is...someone's opinion, influenced by god-knows-what, and not necessarily an unbiased perspective. It certainly is not a fully factual representation and dwells far too much on the opinions of whomever is writing the articles.

I'd only recommend getting as much factual information you can absent editorial opinion, regardless of source. If Fox news reports facts, that's good enough for me.

None the less, his constant ad hominens and accusations of me being brainwashed by US/NATO propaganda have no merit. He has shown that he can't have intelligent discussion without resorting to insults .

They are quite annoying, no question.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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4/14/2014 3:35:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 3:32:25 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 3:26:54 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:16:03 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:57:12 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:54:40 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:03:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you want to provide a believable update, it would probably behoove you to provide whatever sources led you to make this post.

If I say Russia, you always come to their defense -_-


http://uk.reuters.com...

http://www.cbc.ca...

http://www.reuters.com...

http://www.thewire.com...

It's not that I come to their defense, but that I find your perspective on this specific issue to be extremely one-sided.

"There's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." - GoT

Can't disagree with this, but the evidence of Russian misintent is simply to high to plausibly deny now. The Ukrainian government definitely is not helping the situation, but Russia seems to be the majority of the problem.

And what exactly would be this "evidence of wrongdoing"? What international law has Russia violated, and what is the enforcement body for this law?

I've been fairly consistent myself that all that matters is self-interest in international politics.

You know what, I'll even go ahead and blame the US for some of this, but Russia is certainly the elephant. I'll make another post of what we do know about the situation below this.

1) We know for sure that Russia entered Crimea and denied it had troops for a while. A lot of the rebel unrest regarding referendums can be attributed at least partially to them.

2) They broke a international treaty, and have found having connections to voter fraud. This caused even further unrest within the country, when they could of pursued legal avenues towards protecting ethnic Russians and secession.

What international treaty did they break? Who has substantiated voter fraud?

In the end, do these questions even matter? Can anyone enforce their will against Russia? We don't have a military treaty with the Ukraine, and in the end, that's all that will matter.

3) I don't need to argue that Russian agents are in the country. What their doing there is debatable, but its only stirring the pot.

4) Russia's statements supporting eastern autonomy and secession referendums, and threats that they will protect eastern Ukrainians is only making the unrest grow in strength. No genocide is taking place or will take place. That same accusation in Crimea was bogus.

And who enforces genocide law? What is the record on enforcement of this law?
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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4/14/2014 3:37:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 3:32:41 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 3:21:23 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 3:06:52 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 3:02:56 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:52:29 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:50:31 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:57:12 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:54:40 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:03:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you want to provide a believable update, it would probably behoove you to provide whatever sources led you to make this post.

If I say Russia, you always come to their defense -_-


http://uk.reuters.com...

http://www.cbc.ca...

http://www.reuters.com...

http://www.thewire.com...

It's not that I come to their defense, but that I find your perspective on this specific issue to be extremely one-sided.

"There's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." - GoT

Do you think he's representative of America's next generation of adults? Or is he just a fringe element that we don't need to be concerned about? Sometimes the perspective we gain from listening to a few on a forum such as this can lead us to believing they are the standard.

And then, even if they are of the fringe, are they still dangerous because of their outspokenness and that a few can be too influencial?

I don't understand how this discussion is about the personal qualities of jifpop or an argument about America's next generation. This is a discussion about the Ukraine.

The reason being, his ideas are so outright foolish and extremist that it causes me to wonder if there are a lot more of his ilk. Therefore, I can see a real possibility of what's happening in the Ukraine right now with US interference could be only a taste of what's to come. And then, people of his ilk are the sort of people who, if given power, are the type to be advocates of US military action. In fact, he and others like him on this forum have already advocated that. War with Russia? Is that important enough for you to talk about? That's why I'm interested so don't pretend you are rising above it all.

http://rt.com...

CIA director Brennan in the Ukraine. Read something coming from the 'dark' side if you will.

Now that you have betrayed the fact that you know something of which you speak, don't try to pretend that what I'm asking for is irrelevant. It won't sell.


None of the underlined is necessary to this discussion. As it is, of course the US is involved in whatever capacity it can get away with.

I also don't like his constant sourcing of RT. I will give him the fact that its the only news network supporting Russia, but it really falls under the same category as Fox in Bias.

Which is why I've been avoiding using American site sources throughout these posts. Besides using BBC world service (which is one of the fairest networks in the world), the only site which one may determine as biased as CNN, and I think the coverage has been quite fair.

From my experience British sources have their own ridiculous bias. The Economist comes off as being a high-minded editorial piece, but in the end that's all it is...someone's opinion, influenced by god-knows-what, and not necessarily an unbiased perspective. It certainly is not a fully factual representation and dwells far too much on the opinions of whomever is writing the articles.

I'd only recommend getting as much factual information you can absent editorial opinion, regardless of source. If Fox news reports facts, that's good enough for me.

Technically, the BBC is not British news so much anymore. Listening to them, half their employees seem to be international, as the service is world wide. I'm not sure about the economist as I hardly use it. And my problem with FOX is not the bias. Its the trend they have for making baseless statements and their historical tendency to list wrong facts. A trait shared with RT.

None the less, his constant ad hominens and accusations of me being brainwashed by US/NATO propaganda have no merit. He has shown that he can't have intelligent discussion without resorting to insults .

They are quite annoying, no question.

And despite what he says to me on every forum, I don't want war with Russia, I am pro gun control and welfare, and I don't hate atheists. His tendency to generalize groups based on their stance is losing him respect.
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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4/14/2014 3:44:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 3:35:34 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 3:32:25 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 3:26:54 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:16:03 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:57:12 PM, wrichcirw wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:54:40 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 2:03:59 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you want to provide a believable update, it would probably behoove you to provide whatever sources led you to make this post.

If I say Russia, you always come to their defense -_-


http://uk.reuters.com...

http://www.cbc.ca...

http://www.reuters.com...

http://www.thewire.com...

It's not that I come to their defense, but that I find your perspective on this specific issue to be extremely one-sided.

"There's good and evil on both sides of every war ever fought." - GoT

Can't disagree with this, but the evidence of Russian misintent is simply to high to plausibly deny now. The Ukrainian government definitely is not helping the situation, but Russia seems to be the majority of the problem.

And what exactly would be this "evidence of wrongdoing"? What international law has Russia violated, and what is the enforcement body for this law?

I've been fairly consistent myself that all that matters is self-interest in international politics.

You know what, I'll even go ahead and blame the US for some of this, but Russia is certainly the elephant. I'll make another post of what we do know about the situation below this.

1) We know for sure that Russia entered Crimea and denied it had troops for a while. A lot of the rebel unrest regarding referendums can be attributed at least partially to them.

2) They broke a international treaty, and have found having connections to voter fraud. This caused even further unrest within the country, when they could of pursued legal avenues towards protecting ethnic Russians and secession.

What international treaty did they break? Who has substantiated voter fraud?

I've heard 5 treaties have been broken, but the biggest two were that a secession referendum can not take place unless a group or region is being abuse physically and/or politically by the government. Which the Ukrainian Parliament was not doing.

I also linked the voting fraud thing in one of these 2 weeks back. Russian citizens were connected with secession groups in Crimea. These citizens having ties to high government.

In the end, do these questions even matter? Can anyone enforce their will against Russia? We don't have a military treaty with the Ukraine, and in the end, that's all that will matter.
No, sadly Russia will get their way. The reason I write these posts is to raise awareness, and light up the fact that international law and how it is enforced must be significantly reformed.

3) I don't need to argue that Russian agents are in the country. What their doing there is debatable, but its only stirring the pot.

4) Russia's statements supporting eastern autonomy and secession referendums, and threats that they will protect eastern Ukrainians is only making the unrest grow in strength. No genocide is taking place or will take place. That same accusation in Crimea was bogus.

And who enforces genocide law? What is the record on enforcement of this law?

The UN technically enforces it, which is why Russia would of been required to have the UN intervene. This might of been one of the international laws broken, but I can't confirm it without more research.

Despite what the realpolitik's say, common sense shows that no organized democide or genocide was taken place by citizen groups or the government
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party