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Ukraine : The big picture

Jevinigh
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4/13/2014 6:14:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Russia is not the big bad wolf that American media makes it out to be. Instead of constant updates of whats happening day to day, lets take a moment to look at the big picture of what is going on, you will see that this situation is not a new one and it is not the product of an expansionist Russia.

First, lets go back to the days when the Russian nation was still forming, in these days Kiev, was known as Kievien rus' and Kiev is widely regarded as the cradle of Russian civilization, but after the mongol invasions concluded at towards the end of the 14th century and the Muscovy (Moscow) grew in power and wealth, the Russian and Ukrainian civilizations diverged for a while. The Northern rus' Grew into the powerful Russian state ( centered on Moscow) while modern day Ukraine came under the control of the Polish-Lithuanian Common wealth in the early 15th century.

Yes, Poland was once a major European power.

So here is where it should start to sound familiar to you. In the late 15th century, dissatisfied with the control of Poland ( and paticularly with the influence of polish culture), the Zaporozhian Cossacks rose to prominence as Pro-Russian elements in Ukraine, wanting to join with the Russians with whom they shared much of their culture and history. It wouldn't be until the 17th century in 1654 that Ukraine would merge with Russia in the Treaty of Pereyaslav which established frame work for the gradual incorporation of Ukraine into the empire, which finished in the 18th century with the partition of Poland.

Fast forward to the February revolution, As the empire came Apart, Ukraine declared it self independent from the Russian republic ( which existed briefly between the death of the Empire and the birth of the Soviet union) and during the conflict of the Russian civil war, Ukraine would be one of the bloodiest Battle grounds in the war, with Ukrainians fighting on all sides of the conflict.

At the conflicts resolution, Ukraine and Russia became the two founding members of the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics. (USSR) and would also be the two primary signatures which dissolved the union in 1991.

How ever, during this time in the Soviet union is where the consequences of many events today stem from. Such As Crimea which has been part of the Russian nation since the 18th century, but in February of 1954, Nikita Khrushchev commissar of the Soviet Union, issued a decree transferring control of Crimea from the Russian Soviet Federation to the Ukrainian Socialist Soviet Republic. At the time was a symbolic gesture marking the 300th Anniversary of Ukrainian-Russian unity.

It was probably not well imagined that only a short time later the Union would fold in 1991, which created a wake of chaos as the dissolved Soviet union was cut into independent republics.

Now into the 1990s several disputes over Crimea and Sevastopol where resolved diplomatically with Ukraine and Russia which involved a partitioning of the Black sea Soviet fleet and lease of Sevastopol naval facilities to the Russians. Crimea as you see is at the pivoting point of issues in relations between the two countries.

Since the 1990's Ukraine has been a Financially unsuccessful nation, in a deep recession during the 90s the Ukrainian economy was less successful in this recent few years the Russian federation as an emerging market power with greater purchasing power has lended money, given fuel discounts to Ukraine before the coup in early 2014.

Today, despite massive domestic unpopularity of the new coup-installed government and resistance especially in south and eastern Ukraine, The Western powers vilify Russia, The question may come to mind. Why?

The United states has a lot to profit from conflict in Ukraine, especially since the U.S. centered financial crisis played such a critical role in the 2009 down turn in Ukraine from which it did not recover. The Money interests profit from military tensions and especially military interests in the United states. These tentiosn and showing of force has been great for military spending arguments and great for sales of military equipment to the Anti-Russian NATO members.
Through out all of time and space, through the infinity of all that is and was and could have been, I met you. It was not by mistake we found each other here.
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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4/13/2014 7:35:35 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
You keep defending Russia, which is ridiculous. When they get kicked out of 7 international organizations, and condemned vocally by over 100 countries, maybe they deserve the hate?
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ararmer1919
Posts: 362
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4/13/2014 10:58:45 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 6:14:48 AM, Jevinigh wrote:
Russia is not the big bad wolf that American media makes it out to be. Instead of constant updates of whats happening day to day, lets take a moment to look at the big picture of what is going on, you will see that this situation is not a new one and it is not the product of an expansionist Russia.


First, lets go back to the days when the Russian nation was still forming, in these days Kiev, was known as Kievien rus' and Kiev is widely regarded as the cradle of Russian civilization, but after the mongol invasions concluded at towards the end of the 14th century and the Muscovy (Moscow) grew in power and wealth, the Russian and Ukrainian civilizations diverged for a while. The Northern rus' Grew into the powerful Russian state ( centered on Moscow) while modern day Ukraine came under the control of the Polish-Lithuanian Common wealth in the early 15th century.

Yes, Poland was once a major European power.

So here is where it should start to sound familiar to you. In the late 15th century, dissatisfied with the control of Poland ( and paticularly with the influence of polish culture), the Zaporozhian Cossacks rose to prominence as Pro-Russian elements in Ukraine, wanting to join with the Russians with whom they shared much of their culture and history. It wouldn't be until the 17th century in 1654 that Ukraine would merge with Russia in the Treaty of Pereyaslav which established frame work for the gradual incorporation of Ukraine into the empire, which finished in the 18th century with the partition of Poland.

Fast forward to the February revolution, As the empire came Apart, Ukraine declared it self independent from the Russian republic ( which existed briefly between the death of the Empire and the birth of the Soviet union) and during the conflict of the Russian civil war, Ukraine would be one of the bloodiest Battle grounds in the war, with Ukrainians fighting on all sides of the conflict.

And almost 300 years ago the 13 colonies were part of the British empire. Yet today how many Americans will you find loyal to the crown and yearning for reunification? This entire argument is irrelevant. A lot has changed since the Russian empire. For instance there was that little fiasco where the Soviet Union butchered 40 million of ots own people. That might have put a dent in public relations.

At the conflicts resolution, Ukraine and Russia became the two founding members of the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics. (USSR) and would also be the two primary signatures which dissolved the union in 1991.

How ever, during this time in the Soviet union is where the consequences of many events today stem from. Such As Crimea which has been part of the Russian nation since the 18th century, but in February of 1954, Nikita Khrushchev commissar of the Soviet Union, issued a decree transferring control of Crimea from the Russian Soviet Federation to the Ukrainian Socialist Soviet Republic. At the time was a symbolic gesture marking the 300th Anniversary of Ukrainian-Russian unity.

This is utterly untrue. It was not a "symbolic gesture". It was an agreement by both parties to transfer control of Crimea to the Ukraine in exchange for the soviet nukes left behind in Ukraine. Obviously Ukraine got the short end of the stick here. Since Russia went back on thier agreement to give Crimea to the Ukraine and respect ukranian sovereignty maybe the US should give Ukraine a few nukes?

It was probably not well imagined that only a short time later the Union would fold in 1991, which created a wake of chaos as the dissolved Soviet union was cut into independent republics.

Now into the 1990s several disputes over Crimea and Sevastopol where resolved diplomatically with Ukraine and Russia which involved a partitioning of the Black sea Soviet fleet and lease of Sevastopol naval facilities to the Russians. Crimea as you see is at the pivoting point of issues in relations between the two countries.

Since the 1990's Ukraine has been a Financially unsuccessful nation, in a deep recession during the 90s the Ukrainian economy was less successful in this recent few years the Russian federation as an emerging market power with greater purchasing power has lended money, given fuel discounts to Ukraine before the coup in early 2014.

Today, despite massive domestic unpopularity of the new coup-installed government and resistance especially in south and eastern Ukraine, The Western powers vilify Russia, The question may come to mind. Why?

According to who? The Russian propaganda machine? Or the Russian agents already proven to be instigating the dissension in the east.

The United states has a lot to profit from conflict in Ukraine, especially since the U.S. centered financial crisis played such a critical role in the 2009 down turn in Ukraine from which it did not recover. The Money interests profit from military tensions and especially military interests in the United states. These tentiosn and showing of force has been great for military spending arguments and great for sales of military equipment to the Anti-Russian NATO members.
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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4/13/2014 11:38:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 10:58:45 AM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 4/13/2014 6:14:48 AM, Jevinigh wrote:
Russia is not the big bad wolf that American media makes it out to be. Instead of constant updates of whats happening day to day, lets take a moment to look at the big picture of what is going on, you will see that this situation is not a new one and it is not the product of an expansionist Russia.


First, lets go back to the days when the Russian nation was still forming, in these days Kiev, was known as Kievien rus' and Kiev is widely regarded as the cradle of Russian civilization, but after the mongol invasions concluded at towards the end of the 14th century and the Muscovy (Moscow) grew in power and wealth, the Russian and Ukrainian civilizations diverged for a while. The Northern rus' Grew into the powerful Russian state ( centered on Moscow) while modern day Ukraine came under the control of the Polish-Lithuanian Common wealth in the early 15th century.

Yes, Poland was once a major European power.

So here is where it should start to sound familiar to you. In the late 15th century, dissatisfied with the control of Poland ( and paticularly with the influence of polish culture), the Zaporozhian Cossacks rose to prominence as Pro-Russian elements in Ukraine, wanting to join with the Russians with whom they shared much of their culture and history. It wouldn't be until the 17th century in 1654 that Ukraine would merge with Russia in the Treaty of Pereyaslav which established frame work for the gradual incorporation of Ukraine into the empire, which finished in the 18th century with the partition of Poland.

Fast forward to the February revolution, As the empire came Apart, Ukraine declared it self independent from the Russian republic ( which existed briefly between the death of the Empire and the birth of the Soviet union) and during the conflict of the Russian civil war, Ukraine would be one of the bloodiest Battle grounds in the war, with Ukrainians fighting on all sides of the conflict.

And almost 300 years ago the 13 colonies were part of the British empire. Yet today how many Americans will you find loyal to the crown and yearning for reunification? This entire argument is irrelevant. A lot has changed since the Russian empire. For instance there was that little fiasco where the Soviet Union butchered 40 million of ots own people. That might have put a dent in public relations.

At the conflicts resolution, Ukraine and Russia became the two founding members of the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics. (USSR) and would also be the two primary signatures which dissolved the union in 1991.

How ever, during this time in the Soviet union is where the consequences of many events today stem from. Such As Crimea which has been part of the Russian nation since the 18th century, but in February of 1954, Nikita Khrushchev commissar of the Soviet Union, issued a decree transferring control of Crimea from the Russian Soviet Federation to the Ukrainian Socialist Soviet Republic. At the time was a symbolic gesture marking the 300th Anniversary of Ukrainian-Russian unity.

This is utterly untrue. It was not a "symbolic gesture". It was an agreement by both parties to transfer control of Crimea to the Ukraine in exchange for the soviet nukes left behind in Ukraine. Obviously Ukraine got the short end of the stick here. Since Russia went back on thier agreement to give Crimea to the Ukraine and respect ukranian sovereignty maybe the US should give Ukraine a few nukes?

It was probably not well imagined that only a short time later the Union would fold in 1991, which created a wake of chaos as the dissolved Soviet union was cut into independent republics.

Now into the 1990s several disputes over Crimea and Sevastopol where resolved diplomatically with Ukraine and Russia which involved a partitioning of the Black sea Soviet fleet and lease of Sevastopol naval facilities to the Russians. Crimea as you see is at the pivoting point of issues in relations between the two countries.

Since the 1990's Ukraine has been a Financially unsuccessful nation, in a deep recession during the 90s the Ukrainian economy was less successful in this recent few years the Russian federation as an emerging market power with greater purchasing power has lended money, given fuel discounts to Ukraine before the coup in early 2014.

Today, despite massive domestic unpopularity of the new coup-installed government and resistance especially in south and eastern Ukraine, The Western powers vilify Russia, The question may come to mind. Why?

According to who? The Russian propaganda machine? Or the Russian agents already proven to be instigating the dissension in the east.

Actually, it seems they have. The rebels are not organized with military equipment...

http://www.debate.org...

The United states has a lot to profit from conflict in Ukraine, especially since the U.S. centered financial crisis played such a critical role in the 2009 down turn in Ukraine from which it did not recover. The Money interests profit from military tensions and especially military interests in the United states. These tentiosn and showing of force has been great for military spending arguments and great for sales of military equipment to the Anti-Russian NATO members.
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monty1
Posts: 1,084
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4/13/2014 11:48:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Kill the rebel maggots and kill all those who promote unrest throughout the world for political and economic gain.

And send the children on this forum who support the unrest and who run off at the mouth to reform school.

But first a trip out to behind the woodshed with their pants down around their ankles.

Cut me a switch kaoss!
Jevinigh
Posts: 14
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4/13/2014 3:45:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 7:35:35 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
You keep defending Russia, which is ridiculous. When they get kicked out of 7 international organizations, and condemned vocally by over 100 countries, maybe they deserve the hate?

1,000,000 people, can be wrong. Just because the U.S. and its Allies condemn Russia doesn't mean Russia is really at fault. The United States in recent years has NOT showed a high degree of competency in foreign affairs nor a suitable understanding of the mechanics of Global Economics. Our current administration is corrupt and inept and Russia ( putin) is not " the good guy" but nor are they this evil dominating power that the U.S. foreign policy wants to make them out to be.

Russia is villified because its economic power structure is independent* of the Financial empire in Wall Street.
Through out all of time and space, through the infinity of all that is and was and could have been, I met you. It was not by mistake we found each other here.
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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4/13/2014 7:31:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 3:45:00 PM, Jevinigh wrote:
At 4/13/2014 7:35:35 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
You keep defending Russia, which is ridiculous. When they get kicked out of 7 international organizations, and condemned vocally by over 100 countries, maybe they deserve the hate?

1,000,000 people, can be wrong. Just because the U.S. and its Allies condemn Russia doesn't mean Russia is really at fault. The United States in recent years has NOT showed a high degree of competency in foreign affairs nor a suitable understanding of the mechanics of Global Economics. Our current administration is corrupt and inept and Russia ( putin) is not " the good guy" but nor are they this evil dominating power that the U.S. foreign policy wants to make them out to be.


Russia is villified because its economic power structure is independent* of the Financial empire in Wall Street.

1) Many of the countries that have been most vocal don't belong to NATO or are MNNA's.

2) By your logic, Russia can do anything that it wants because the US did it also? Do I need to explain this to you?

3) Russia is not dependent on the US in anyway. They are dependent on eastern Europe. All their petroleum, metals, and liquid metals ship to East Europe.

4) What Russia did is wrong, no matter how you put it. They violated 5 treaties, fradulated a referendum, and sent agents to stir unrest. People died, but your to blinded by a hate for the US to see it.
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Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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4/13/2014 7:36:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 10:58:45 AM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 4/13/2014 6:14:48 AM, Jevinigh wrote:
Russia is not the big bad wolf that American media makes it out to be. Instead of constant updates of whats happening day to day, lets take a moment to look at the big picture of what is going on, you will see that this situation is not a new one and it is not the product of an expansionist Russia.


First, lets go back to the days when the Russian nation was still forming, in these days Kiev, was known as Kievien rus' and Kiev is widely regarded as the cradle of Russian civilization, but after the mongol invasions concluded at towards the end of the 14th century and the Muscovy (Moscow) grew in power and wealth, the Russian and Ukrainian civilizations diverged for a while. The Northern rus' Grew into the powerful Russian state ( centered on Moscow) while modern day Ukraine came under the control of the Polish-Lithuanian Common wealth in the early 15th century.

Yes, Poland was once a major European power.

So here is where it should start to sound familiar to you. In the late 15th century, dissatisfied with the control of Poland ( and paticularly with the influence of polish culture), the Zaporozhian Cossacks rose to prominence as Pro-Russian elements in Ukraine, wanting to join with the Russians with whom they shared much of their culture and history. It wouldn't be until the 17th century in 1654 that Ukraine would merge with Russia in the Treaty of Pereyaslav which established frame work for the gradual incorporation of Ukraine into the empire, which finished in the 18th century with the partition of Poland.

Fast forward to the February revolution, As the empire came Apart, Ukraine declared it self independent from the Russian republic ( which existed briefly between the death of the Empire and the birth of the Soviet union) and during the conflict of the Russian civil war, Ukraine would be one of the bloodiest Battle grounds in the war, with Ukrainians fighting on all sides of the conflict.

And almost 300 years ago the 13 colonies were part of the British empire. Yet today how many Americans will you find loyal to the crown and yearning for reunification? This entire argument is irrelevant. A lot has changed since the Russian empire. For instance there was that little fiasco where the Soviet Union butchered 40 million of ots own people. That might have put a dent in public relations.

I debated someone on the history of Ukraine recently. The majority of Poland was anti-russian. They spent 1500 years being thrown around between Russia and Germany, and fought several wars for sovereignty. Her reasoning is weak.

At the conflicts resolution, Ukraine and Russia became the two founding members of the Union of Socialist Soviet Republics. (USSR) and would also be the two primary signatures which dissolved the union in 1991.

How ever, during this time in the Soviet union is where the consequences of many events today stem from. Such As Crimea which has been part of the Russian nation since the 18th century, but in February of 1954, Nikita Khrushchev commissar of the Soviet Union, issued a decree transferring control of Crimea from the Russian Soviet Federation to the Ukrainian Socialist Soviet Republic. At the time was a symbolic gesture marking the 300th Anniversary of Ukrainian-Russian unity.

This is utterly untrue. It was not a "symbolic gesture". It was an agreement by both parties to transfer control of Crimea to the Ukraine in exchange for the soviet nukes left behind in Ukraine. Obviously Ukraine got the short end of the stick here. Since Russia went back on thier agreement to give Crimea to the Ukraine and respect ukranian sovereignty maybe the US should give Ukraine a few nukes?

Anytime a country breaks an international treaty they should be condemned. She has no excuse for defending Russia, or the fraudulent referendum.

It was probably not well imagined that only a short time later the Union would fold in 1991, which created a wake of chaos as the dissolved Soviet union was cut into independent republics.

Now into the 1990s several disputes over Crimea and Sevastopol where resolved diplomatically with Ukraine and Russia which involved a partitioning of the Black sea Soviet fleet and lease of Sevastopol naval facilities to the Russians. Crimea as you see is at the pivoting point of issues in relations between the two countries.

Since the 1990's Ukraine has been a Financially unsuccessful nation, in a deep recession during the 90s the Ukrainian economy was less successful in this recent few years the Russian federation as an emerging market power with greater purchasing power has lended money, given fuel discounts to Ukraine before the coup in early 2014.

Today, despite massive domestic unpopularity of the new coup-installed government and resistance especially in south and eastern Ukraine, The Western powers vilify Russia, The question may come to mind. Why?

According to who? The Russian propaganda machine? Or the Russian agents already proven to be instigating the dissension in the east.

Suprised that she didn't quote RT on this one. Russia has began a censorship campaign since the invasion. They almost have less media freedom then China. The Kremlin reserves the rights to control the population in the event of wartime.

The United states has a lot to profit from conflict in Ukraine, especially since the U.S. centered financial crisis played such a critical role in the 2009 down turn in Ukraine from which it did not recover. The Money interests profit from military tensions and especially military interests in the United states. These tentiosn and showing of force has been great for military spending arguments and great for sales of military equipment to the Anti-Russian NATO members.
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wrichcirw
Posts: 11,196
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4/14/2014 2:17:46 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 7:35:35 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
You keep defending Russia, which is ridiculous. When they get kicked out of 7 international organizations, and condemned vocally by over 100 countries, maybe they deserve the hate?

Most of those "countries" are US puppet states. Most of those "international" organizations have their headquarters in Washington, DC.
At 8/9/2013 9:41:24 AM, wrichcirw wrote:
If you are civil with me, I will be civil to you. If you decide to bring unreasonable animosity to bear in a reasonable discussion, then what would you expect other than to get flustered?
Jevinigh
Posts: 14
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4/14/2014 4:47:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 7:31:27 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 4/13/2014 3:45:00 PM, Jevinigh wrote:
At 4/13/2014 7:35:35 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
You keep defending Russia, which is ridiculous. When they get kicked out of 7 international organizations, and condemned vocally by over 100 countries, maybe they deserve the hate?

1,000,000 people, can be wrong. Just because the U.S. and its Allies condemn Russia doesn't mean Russia is really at fault. The United States in recent years has NOT showed a high degree of competency in foreign affairs nor a suitable understanding of the mechanics of Global Economics. Our current administration is corrupt and inept and Russia ( putin) is not " the good guy" but nor are they this evil dominating power that the U.S. foreign policy wants to make them out to be.


Russia is villified because its economic power structure is independent* of the Financial empire in Wall Street.

1) Many of the countries that have been most vocal don't belong to NATO or are MNNA's.

2) By your logic, Russia can do anything that it wants because the US did it also? Do I need to explain this to you?

3) Russia is not dependent on the US in anyway. They are dependent on eastern Europe. All their petroleum, metals, and liquid metals ship to East Europe.

4) What Russia did is wrong, no matter how you put it. They violated 5 treaties, fradulated a referendum, and sent agents to stir unrest. People died, but your to blinded by a hate for the US to see it.

1) Nato Is putting Military assets in place, Don't be Naive!

2) Boy don't get snippy with me. No, Russia doesn't get a free pass on anything it does. But it does have the right to look at its own interests and it has a right to resolve its own issues.

3) So you Understand, the heads of the American Financial empire are very unhappy about having a relevant power be independent of Wall Street.

4) I laid out the history of the region and the reality on the ground is that Ukraine Coup-government in Kiev is made up of psychopaths and radicals. The unstable and now violent government should be internationally condemned and should have been condemned when they first had their Coup.
Through out all of time and space, through the infinity of all that is and was and could have been, I met you. It was not by mistake we found each other here.
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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4/14/2014 11:31:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
We're now in a situation where the coup installed Kiev gov may try to force Russia to react by mobilizing it's military to start the slaughter of the pro-Russian protesters. UN/Nato works in marvelous ways.

On the positive side of it, Americans are much more of the opinion that Russia is not to blame. But they are unable to take the next logical step and blame their own country through nato interference in Ukraine's affairs.

To be fair though, some in tune people on this forum are not blinded by their country's propaganda efforts.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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4/14/2014 11:55:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
No. I'm totally against the Russian annexation of Crimea. All present borders around the world must be respected, which is a position every nation must adhere to by being members of the UN.

What Russia is doing is its establishing a dangerous precedent. At this moment in history President Putin is committing a very dangerous set of acts that threatens not just the lives of those in that area but of the entire world as well. He is demonstrating to be a very bad leader with a horrible sense of judgement.

Russians inside of the Ukraine could have been protected through diplomatic means . . . instead he has chosen a route that creates an incredible amount of stress in the world.
monty1
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4/14/2014 1:14:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 11:55:53 AM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
No. I'm totally against the Russian annexation of Crimea. All present borders around the world must be respected, which is a position every nation must adhere to by being members of the UN.

What Russia is doing is its establishing a dangerous precedent. At this moment in history President Putin is committing a very dangerous set of acts that threatens not just the lives of those in that area but of the entire world as well. He is demonstrating to be a very bad leader with a horrible sense of judgement.

Russians inside of the Ukraine could have been protected through diplomatic means . . . instead he has chosen a route that creates an incredible amount of stress in the world.

If only you could be taken seriously. The US has been plundering all over the world for decades and somehow Americans can find ways to justify it all. Both Iraq wars set the bar so high that there's absolutely no possibility of further Russian aggression that can even come close to that.

And then, whe the Crimea was allowed a rejerendum in which the people were allowed to make their choice of being a part of Russia or not, it's become laughable at best to even consider a parallel to US aggression.

Yet the US/Nato propaganda has been effective with at least 25% of americans who choose to blame Russia. The facts as I've stated should put those 25% to shame!
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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4/14/2014 1:19:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 1:14:29 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 11:55:53 AM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
No. I'm totally against the Russian annexation of Crimea. All present borders around the world must be respected, which is a position every nation must adhere to by being members of the UN.

What Russia is doing is its establishing a dangerous precedent. At this moment in history President Putin is committing a very dangerous set of acts that threatens not just the lives of those in that area but of the entire world as well. He is demonstrating to be a very bad leader with a horrible sense of judgement.

Russians inside of the Ukraine could have been protected through diplomatic means . . . instead he has chosen a route that creates an incredible amount of stress in the world.

If only you could be taken seriously. The US has been plundering all over the world for decades and somehow Americans can find ways to justify it all. Both Iraq wars set the bar so high that there's absolutely no possibility of further Russian aggression that can even come close to that.

And then, whe the Crimea was allowed a rejerendum in which the people were allowed to make their choice of being a part of Russia or not, it's become laughable at best to even consider a parallel to US aggression.

Yet the US/Nato propaganda has been effective with at least 25% of americans who choose to blame Russia. The facts as I've stated should put those 25% to shame!

False analogy, monty. The U.S. doesn't invade nations to annex their territory . . . we do it to stop territorism, to establish democracy, and sometimes for petty reasons too. But we don't invade to annex territory, which is a serious violation of UN law and international norms!

Russia invaded the Ukraine--not to stop terrorists, not to establish democracy--but to rob, plunder and force people into exodus!

You're totally wrong, monty!
Juan_Pablo
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4/14/2014 1:20:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 1:14:29 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 11:55:53 AM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
No. I'm totally against the Russian annexation of Crimea. All present borders around the world must be respected, which is a position every nation must adhere to by being members of the UN.

What Russia is doing is its establishing a dangerous precedent. At this moment in history President Putin is committing a very dangerous set of acts that threatens not just the lives of those in that area but of the entire world as well. He is demonstrating to be a very bad leader with a horrible sense of judgement.

Russians inside of the Ukraine could have been protected through diplomatic means . . . instead he has chosen a route that creates an incredible amount of stress in the world.

If only you could be taken seriously. The US has been plundering all over the world for decades and somehow Americans can find ways to justify it all. Both Iraq wars set the bar so high that there's absolutely no possibility of further Russian aggression that can even come close to that.

And then, whe the Crimea was allowed a rejerendum in which the people were allowed to make their choice of being a part of Russia or not, it's become laughable at best to even consider a parallel to US aggression.

Yet the US/Nato propaganda has been effective with at least 25% of americans who choose to blame Russia. The facts as I've stated should put those 25% to shame!

Should I set-up residence inside your home and claim it as mine, then force you out to make my point?
ararmer1919
Posts: 362
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4/14/2014 1:33:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 1:14:29 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 11:55:53 AM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
No. I'm totally against the Russian annexation of Crimea. All present borders around the world must be respected, which is a position every nation must adhere to by being members of the UN.

What Russia is doing is its establishing a dangerous precedent. At this moment in history President Putin is committing a very dangerous set of acts that threatens not just the lives of those in that area but of the entire world as well. He is demonstrating to be a very bad leader with a horrible sense of judgement.

Russians inside of the Ukraine could have been protected through diplomatic means . . . instead he has chosen a route that creates an incredible amount of stress in the world.

If only you could be taken seriously. The US has been plundering all over the world for decades and somehow Americans can find ways to justify it all. Both Iraq wars set the bar so high that there's absolutely no possibility of further Russian aggression that can even come close to that.

And then, whe the Crimea was allowed a rejerendum in which the people were allowed to make their choice of being a part of Russia or not, it's become laughable at best to even consider a parallel to US aggression.

Yet the US/Nato propaganda has been effective with at least 25% of americans who choose to blame Russia. The facts as I've stated should put those 25% to shame!

How. How are the Iraq wars precedence? First gulf war was the result of Iraq invading Kuwait and US Ally. Second gulf war was the result of saddam violating over a dozen UN sanctions, treaties, laws and enforcements. How exactly is Russia's invasion an annexation of a sovereign nation for no reason whatsoever in any way relatable?
monty1
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4/14/2014 2:35:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/14/2014 1:33:05 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 1:14:29 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 4/14/2014 11:55:53 AM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
No. I'm totally against the Russian annexation of Crimea. All present borders around the world must be respected, which is a position every nation must adhere to by being members of the UN.

What Russia is doing is its establishing a dangerous precedent. At this moment in history President Putin is committing a very dangerous set of acts that threatens not just the lives of those in that area but of the entire world as well. He is demonstrating to be a very bad leader with a horrible sense of judgement.

Russians inside of the Ukraine could have been protected through diplomatic means . . . instead he has chosen a route that creates an incredible amount of stress in the world.

If only you could be taken seriously. The US has been plundering all over the world for decades and somehow Americans can find ways to justify it all. Both Iraq wars set the bar so high that there's absolutely no possibility of further Russian aggression that can even come close to that.

And then, whe the Crimea was allowed a rejerendum in which the people were allowed to make their choice of being a part of Russia or not, it's become laughable at best to even consider a parallel to US aggression.

Yet the US/Nato propaganda has been effective with at least 25% of americans who choose to blame Russia. The facts as I've stated should put those 25% to shame!

How. How are the Iraq wars precedence? First gulf war was the result of Iraq invading Kuwait and US Ally. Second gulf war was the result of saddam violating over a dozen UN sanctions, treaties, laws and enforcements. How exactly is Russia's invasion an annexation of a sovereign nation for no reason whatsoever in any way relatable?

You are one of the several on this forum who are past the point of it being worthwhile to even try to debate with. If you, juan, jiffypop, and a few more are representative of America's next generation of adults then that's a pretty scary proposition for the world's future.

For Germans of the 30's it took a great orator and the fact that the Treaty of Versailles had enslaved them. For America's youth it's taking much less motivation.