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Christmas

pozessed
Posts: 1,034
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4/13/2014 8:53:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Isn't Christmas being a nationally recognized and respected holiday a contradiction to the first amendment?

Is lying to children for benign reasons worth the distrust that the parent earns after the child learns the truth? Is it wrong to assume that a child who is not lied to by their parent is probably going to have more trust and respect for that parent?
(Santa Claus, for those of you who don't understand the relevance.)

At least I'm adamant enough with these thoughts to think about them when Christmas is nowhere near. Any opinions are appreciated.A279;
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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4/13/2014 9:17:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 8:53:42 AM, pozessed wrote:
Isn't Christmas being a nationally recognized and respected holiday a contradiction to the first amendment?

The only issue is government being closed and/or spending money on it (i.e. decorations)

However, I suppose the argument would be it is celebrated by most, part of the culture if you will, so there is no reason to be open.
If enough people stopped celebrating it (keeping in mind MOST people due, even if not for religious reasons), then it ought to be stopped. For example, if enough people in one town had enough, and demanded their tax dollars not be spent on decorations.

Christmas is very secular, so I don't see the issue.

Is lying to children for benign reasons worth the distrust that the parent earns after the child learns the truth? Is it wrong to assume that a child who is not lied to by their parent is probably going to have more trust and respect for that parent?
(Santa Claus, for those of you who don't understand the relevance.)


Meh.
Is keeping a sense of wonder for children a bad thing?
Besides, Santa is only supposed to bring presents if you are good, thus it is a means to promote good behavior.
My work here is, finally, done.
pozessed
Posts: 1,034
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4/13/2014 9:29:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 9:17:51 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/13/2014 8:53:42 AM, pozessed wrote:
Isn't Christmas being a nationally recognized and respected holiday a contradiction to the first amendment?

The only issue is government being closed and/or spending money on it (i.e. decorations)

However, I suppose the argument would be it is celebrated by most, part of the culture if you will, so there is no reason to be open.
If enough people stopped celebrating it (keeping in mind MOST people due, even if not for religious reasons), then it ought to be stopped. For example, if enough people in one town had enough, and demanded their tax dollars not be spent on decorations.

Christmas is very secular, so I don't see the issue.

Maybe traditions of Christmas are secular, but considering the origin of Christmas is of religious context should propose that it is contradictory to our first amendment.

Is lying to children for benign reasons worth the distrust that the parent earns after the child learns the truth? Is it wrong to assume that a child who is not lied to by their parent is probably going to have more trust and respect for that parent?
(Santa Claus, for those of you who don't understand the relevance.)


Meh.
Is keeping a sense of wonder for children a bad thing?

When does a 5 year old ever lose their sense of wonder?

Besides, Santa is only supposed to bring presents if you are good, thus it is a means to promote good behavior.

I'm sure there are better ways to promote good behavior that doesn't involve destroying part of prepubescents trust in their parent.

Could you give a direct answer to my questions about lying to children that I asked in my OP?
slo1
Posts: 4,359
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4/13/2014 10:42:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 8:53:42 AM, pozessed wrote:
Isn't Christmas being a nationally recognized and respected holiday a contradiction to the first amendment?

Is lying to children for benign reasons worth the distrust that the parent earns after the child learns the truth? Is it wrong to assume that a child who is not lied to by their parent is probably going to have more trust and respect for that parent?
(Santa Claus, for those of you who don't understand the relevance.)

At least I'm adamant enough with these thoughts to think about them when Christmas is nowhere near. Any opinions are appreciated.A279;

There is a strong argument that it is a contradiction. If the majority were not Christian there would be no Christmas day off. o resolve it is as simple as having no religious national holidays and give workers a bank of extra time off to use as they see fit for any religious or other holiday they see fit.

The problem with the majority argument is that unless a country has specific policies to keep religious or ethnic majorities in place like Israel has then the majority is always at risk of becoming a minority and loosing state provided privileges such as time off for a day that has religious importance to individuals..
thett3
Posts: 14,372
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4/13/2014 10:52:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
If literally having a statue of the Ten Commandments at a state Capitol building was ruled to not violate the establishment clause, I would be absolutely stunned if the argument that having national holidays violates that same clause wouldn't be laughed out of court. The court ruled the Ten Commandments were allowed to be there because they served both a religious and secular purpose. Whatever secular purpose there is probably pretty flimsy, but I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say holidays serve a secular purpose.
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monty1
Posts: 1,084
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4/13/2014 11:39:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Santa, Easter bunny, Peter Pan, Jesus, Tinkerbelle, Tooth fairy, and the Celestial teapot are all sky fairies. You can believe in all of them except jesus and the god and still not be religious.

Let's keep Christimas for kids who believe in sky fairies and dump religion for grown ups who should know better.
pozessed
Posts: 1,034
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4/13/2014 12:11:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 10:42:41 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 4/13/2014 8:53:42 AM, pozessed wrote:
Isn't Christmas being a nationally recognized and respected holiday a contradiction to the first amendment?

Is lying to children for benign reasons worth the distrust that the parent earns after the child learns the truth? Is it wrong to assume that a child who is not lied to by their parent is probably going to have more trust and respect for that parent?
(Santa Claus, for those of you who don't understand the relevance.)

At least I'm adamant enough with these thoughts to think about them when Christmas is nowhere near. Any opinions are appreciated.A279;

There is a strong argument that it is a contradiction. If the majority were not Christian there would be no Christmas day off. o resolve it is as simple as having no religious national holidays and give workers a bank of extra time off to use as they see fit for any religious or other holiday they see fit.

The problem with the majority argument is that unless a country has specific policies to keep religious or ethnic majorities in place like Israel has then the majority is always at risk of becoming a minority and loosing state provided privileges such as time off for a day that has religious importance to individuals..

I understand your reasoning. Your stating that because a majority of Americans are Christian, Jewish, or Catholic, etc they request the day off for religious purposes.Hence the government made it a national holiday to try and convenience the majority of our religious sects. I assume I deciphered your thoughts correctly.
My argument still stands that the reasoning behind this national holiday is for religious purpose and not secular purpose. If it wasn't for a few specific religions that consist of the majority of peoples, it probably would not be recognized as a national holiday.
pozessed
Posts: 1,034
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4/13/2014 12:15:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 10:52:29 AM, thett3 wrote:
If literally having a statue of the Ten Commandments at a state Capitol building was ruled to not violate the establishment clause, I would be absolutely stunned if the argument that having national holidays violates that same clause wouldn't be laughed out of court. The court ruled the Ten Commandments were allowed to be there because they served both a religious and secular purpose. Whatever secular purpose there is probably pretty flimsy, but I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say holidays serve a secular purpose.

I agree with you 100%. I do believe that it's improbable that people will realize the bias in the Christmas holiday, that won't keep me from defining my stance on the subject though.
I do agree there is plenty of secular purpose to Christmas, but the fact that it references Christ in it's name makes it no less religious propaganda.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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4/13/2014 1:21:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 9:29:42 AM, pozessed wrote:
At 4/13/2014 9:17:51 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/13/2014 8:53:42 AM, pozessed wrote:
Isn't Christmas being a nationally recognized and respected holiday a contradiction to the first amendment?

The only issue is government being closed and/or spending money on it (i.e. decorations)

However, I suppose the argument would be it is celebrated by most, part of the culture if you will, so there is no reason to be open.
If enough people stopped celebrating it (keeping in mind MOST people due, even if not for religious reasons), then it ought to be stopped. For example, if enough people in one town had enough, and demanded their tax dollars not be spent on decorations.

Christmas is very secular, so I don't see the issue.

Maybe traditions of Christmas are secular, but considering the origin of Christmas is of religious context should propose that it is contradictory to our first amendment.

Let me ask you this:
If it is so popular that the people want to be home for the holiday, in so much as most perceive it unfair to keep a business open on it, why should that not extend to the government?
The fact that, say, 90% (for whatever reason) expect to spend time with family on Christmas (for whatever origin), is it wrong to expect judges, clerks, DMV, IRS agents, and other non-essential government employees to also be at home?

Is lying to children for benign reasons worth the distrust that the parent earns after the child learns the truth? Is it wrong to assume that a child who is not lied to by their parent is probably going to have more trust and respect for that parent?
(Santa Claus, for those of you who don't understand the relevance.)


Meh.
Is keeping a sense of wonder for children a bad thing?

When does a 5 year old ever lose their sense of wonder?

Besides, Santa is only supposed to bring presents if you are good, thus it is a means to promote good behavior.

I'm sure there are better ways to promote good behavior that doesn't involve destroying part of prepubescents trust in their parent.

Could you give a direct answer to my questions about lying to children that I asked in my OP?

I don't think lying to your child in order to give them presents makes the child resent the parent.
My work here is, finally, done.
progressivedem22
Posts: 1,304
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4/13/2014 1:40:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Honestly, technically it's a violation of the separation of church and state, but plenty of secular people celebrate it, so I would say that, so long as it doesn't impinge on the rights of people to choose how or whether they practice -- e.g., with nativity scenes on public property -- I don't see any need to eliminate it as a national holiday.
pozessed
Posts: 1,034
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4/13/2014 2:16:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/13/2014 1:21:31 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/13/2014 9:29:42 AM, pozessed wrote:
At 4/13/2014 9:17:51 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/13/2014 8:53:42 AM, pozessed wrote:
Isn't Christmas being a nationally recognized and respected holiday a contradiction to the first amendment?

The only issue is government being closed and/or spending money on it (i.e. decorations)

However, I suppose the argument would be it is celebrated by most, part of the culture if you will, so there is no reason to be open.
If enough people stopped celebrating it (keeping in mind MOST people due, even if not for religious reasons), then it ought to be stopped. For example, if enough people in one town had enough, and demanded their tax dollars not be spent on decorations.

Christmas is very secular, so I don't see the issue.

Maybe traditions of Christmas are secular, but considering the origin of Christmas is of religious context should propose that it is contradictory to our first amendment.

Let me ask you this:
If it is so popular that the people want to be home for the holiday, in so much as most perceive it unfair to keep a business open on it, why should that not extend to the government?

It should, but does it have to retain the religious context in order to achieve that goal if not it is mere religious propaganda.

The fact that, say, 90% (for whatever reason) expect to spend time with family on Christmas (for whatever origin), is it wrong to expect judges, clerks, DMV, IRS agents, and other non-essential government employees to also be at home?

That's not the point.

Is lying to children for benign reasons worth the distrust that the parent earns after the child learns the truth? Is it wrong to assume that a child who is not lied to by their parent is probably going to have more trust and respect for that parent?
(Santa Claus, for those of you who don't understand the relevance.)


Meh.
Is keeping a sense of wonder for children a bad thing?

When does a 5 year old ever lose their sense of wonder?

Besides, Santa is only supposed to bring presents if you are good, thus it is a means to promote good behavior.

I'm sure there are better ways to promote good behavior that doesn't involve destroying part of prepubescents trust in their parent.

Could you give a direct answer to my questions about lying to children that I asked in my OP?

I don't think lying to your child in order to give them presents makes the child resent the parent.

Do you think children mimic the examples set forth by the people they respect? If so, what do you think the child will exemplify if the people they admire enact deceitful behavior?