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Does the Left Have Any Intelligent Arguments?

jimtimmy3
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4/23/2014 3:06:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm yet to see them. Whenever someone questions the left's blind faith in the state to do everything, you are either racist or classist.

Whenever someone questions the unscientific nature of egalitarian dogma, you are racist or sexist.

Come to think of it, I haven't heard a real argument from the left in a long time. Calling an opponent racist or sexist or classist is not a real argument btw.

Anyone care to prove me wrong by actually offering an intelligent left wing argument?
el_em_en_oh
Posts: 66
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4/23/2014 3:24:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 3:06:44 PM, jimtimmy3 wrote:
I'm yet to see them. Whenever someone questions the left's blind faith in the state to do everything, you are either racist or classist.

Whenever someone questions the unscientific nature of egalitarian dogma, you are racist or sexist.

Come to think of it, I haven't heard a real argument from the left in a long time. Calling an opponent racist or sexist or classist is not a real argument btw.

Anyone care to prove me wrong by actually offering an intelligent left wing argument?

An EXCELLENT question posed to the Left'leaning members of DDO. I eagerly await any and all reply's to your query!

Don't expect much, my friend, as Lefties are classist/racist perpetuating dolts. I can't think of a time that the country has been more class/race divided (maybe the 1960's?).
Daktoria
Posts: 497
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4/23/2014 4:00:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Leftist thought is built around bullying.

The problem is many conservatives are ruggedly individualist bullies who disrespect who individuals are on the inside that counts. They're anti-intellectual, stuck in their ways, and close minded against creative thinking.

In turn, leftist thought tries to force conservatives to endure a performative contradiction by getting things wrong on purpose and saying they're right "just because" while claiming that conservatives are obviously wrong and trolls.

On the other hand, many leftists are indeed lazy bums who are just trying to straight up bully honest conservatives.
slo1
Posts: 4,308
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4/23/2014 4:23:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 3:06:44 PM, jimtimmy3 wrote:
I'm yet to see them. Whenever someone questions the left's blind faith in the state to do everything, you are either racist or classist.

Whenever someone questions the unscientific nature of egalitarian dogma, you are racist or sexist.

Come to think of it, I haven't heard a real argument from the left in a long time. Calling an opponent racist or sexist or classist is not a real argument btw.

Anyone care to prove me wrong by actually offering an intelligent left wing argument?

How about this?

- Heaven has to be communist because everyone has equal glory and riches.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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4/23/2014 4:29:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 4:23:35 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 4/23/2014 3:06:44 PM, jimtimmy3 wrote:
I'm yet to see them. Whenever someone questions the left's blind faith in the state to do everything, you are either racist or classist.

Whenever someone questions the unscientific nature of egalitarian dogma, you are racist or sexist.

Come to think of it, I haven't heard a real argument from the left in a long time. Calling an opponent racist or sexist or classist is not a real argument btw.

Anyone care to prove me wrong by actually offering an intelligent left wing argument?

How about this?

- Heaven has to be communist because everyone has equal glory and riches.

Equality is a necessary but not sufficient characteristic of communism.
thett3
Posts: 14,334
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4/23/2014 4:35:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Yes, the left has intelligent arguments. You're falsely equivocating the worst kind of leftists who demonize all opposition as racist/sexist with intelligent people who fall to the left on the political spectrum.
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donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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4/23/2014 4:37:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 3:06:44 PM, jimtimmy3 wrote:
I'm yet to see them. Whenever someone questions the left's blind faith in the state to do everything, you are either racist or classist.

Whenever someone questions the unscientific nature of egalitarian dogma, you are racist or sexist.

Come to think of it, I haven't heard a real argument from the left in a long time. Calling an opponent racist or sexist or classist is not a real argument btw.

Anyone care to prove me wrong by actually offering an intelligent left wing argument?

I'll send you a challenge if you care to defend this assumption of yours.
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CJKAllstar
Posts: 408
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4/23/2014 4:39:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 4:00:05 PM, Daktoria wrote:
Leftist thought is built around bullying.

The problem is many conservatives are ruggedly individualist bullies who disrespect who individuals are on the inside that counts. They're anti-intellectual, stuck in their ways, and close minded against creative thinking.

In turn, leftist thought tries to force conservatives to endure a performative contradiction by getting things wrong on purpose and saying they're right "just because" while claiming that conservatives are obviously wrong and trolls.

On the other hand, many leftists are indeed lazy bums who are just trying to straight up bully honest conservatives.

For goodness sake! There is difference between this stupid stereotype that so many left wing people have about the right, and the actual right! Please explain how I am a bully,for what makes the right "bullies".
"Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." - George Orwell
donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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4/23/2014 4:44:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 4:00:05 PM, Daktoria wrote:
Leftist thought is built around bullying.

The problem is many conservatives are ruggedly individualist bullies who disrespect who individuals are on the inside that counts. They're anti-intellectual, stuck in their ways, and close minded against creative thinking.

In turn, leftist thought tries to force conservatives to endure a performative contradiction by getting things wrong on purpose and saying they're right "just because" while claiming that conservatives are obviously wrong and trolls.

On the other hand, many leftists are indeed lazy bums who are just trying to straight up bully honest conservatives.

This was almost as bad as the OP's post. At least the OP only attacked one group of people without warrant or reason.
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progressivedem22
Posts: 1,304
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4/23/2014 4:48:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
*Sigh*

I step out for twelve measly hours and this happens!

Of course "the left" has intelligent arguments. There are doctors, lawyers, Nobel Laureates, et al. who lean to the left of the political spectrum. I'd love for you to point to one leftist on DDO who uses as the crux of their argument "you're racist!" I continue to hear this, but other than monty1, I haven't seen a single person who does this regularly -- and I certainly have not seen an intelligent person do it. I mean, I've seen many people on the right suggest that racism is no longer an issue, which I think is totally and completely misguided, but by pointing that out, I'm not invoking some type of "race card."

But, no, my argument against conservative ideology -- and I attack ideas, not people, and make arguments, not slanderous, baseless assertions pontificating -- is not that they're racist, sexist, or what have you, though some are. It's that they don't have the facts on their side. That's it. And, not to mention, they've become so extreme over the years it's difficult to keep up with them. There is no left-wing equivalent to right-wing climate change denial, for instance. Ezra Klein may want to assert that there is, but I think that view is fundamental wrong (see, I criticized a liberal, so now I'm cool, right?)

Anyway, I'd love to see some actual quotes demonstrating that people "on the left" simply use the race, sex, et al. card instead of making intellectual arguments. Otherwise, this topic is about as much pointless projection as the thread in the religion forum suggesting that atheists be barred from posting in it.
Juan_Pablo
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4/23/2014 4:49:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 3:06:44 PM, jimtimmy3 wrote:
I'm yet to see them. Whenever someone questions the left's blind faith in the state to do everything, you are either racist or classist.

Whenever someone questions the unscientific nature of egalitarian dogma, you are racist or sexist.

A view that opposes egalitarian doctrine is necessarily one that advocates the inequality of man! Jimmy, if you do support such a view that puts you in the same league Hitler. That's just the way it is!

Come to think of it, I haven't heard a real argument from the left in a long time. Calling an opponent racist or sexist or classist is not a real argument btw.

Anyone care to prove me wrong by actually offering an intelligent left wing argument?
n7
Posts: 1,355
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4/23/2014 4:50:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Hasty generalizations, hasty generalizations everywhere.
404 coherent debate topic not found. Please restart the debate with clear resolution.


Uphold Marxist-Leninist-Maoist-Sargonist-n7ism.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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4/23/2014 4:51:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 3:06:44 PM, jimtimmy3 wrote:
I'm yet to see them. Whenever someone questions the left's blind faith in the state to do everything, you are either racist or classist.

Whenever someone questions the unscientific nature of egalitarian dogma, you are racist or sexist.

Come to think of it, I haven't heard a real argument from the left in a long time. Calling an opponent racist or sexist or classist is not a real argument btw.

Anyone care to prove me wrong by actually offering an intelligent left wing argument?

Jimmy, everytime someone endorses an anti-egalitarian view of humankind, I will ALWAYS respond by calling them on it and associating them with similar believers. If you don't want me to do this, don't endorse anti-egalitarian views!

Otherwise expect it!
Daktoria
Posts: 497
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4/23/2014 4:52:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 4:44:36 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/23/2014 4:00:05 PM, Daktoria wrote:
Leftist thought is built around bullying.

The problem is many conservatives are ruggedly individualist bullies who disrespect who individuals are on the inside that counts. They're anti-intellectual, stuck in their ways, and close minded against creative thinking.

In turn, leftist thought tries to force conservatives to endure a performative contradiction by getting things wrong on purpose and saying they're right "just because" while claiming that conservatives are obviously wrong and trolls.

On the other hand, many leftists are indeed lazy bums who are just trying to straight up bully honest conservatives.

This was almost as bad as the OP's post. At least the OP only attacked one group of people without warrant or reason.

Are you saying leftists don't care about bullying? For example, the point of being moral emotivists, contextualists, and relativists is to transform society into a popularity contest where outcasts are victimized and leftists blame the victim?

Sorry, but I thought some leftists were a little more compassionate than that. I know many don't care because they're really just lazy bums and try to get whatever they will by being wise guys, but I figured they all weren't.
donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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4/23/2014 4:57:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 4:52:59 PM, Daktoria wrote:
At 4/23/2014 4:44:36 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/23/2014 4:00:05 PM, Daktoria wrote:
Leftist thought is built around bullying.

The problem is many conservatives are ruggedly individualist bullies who disrespect who individuals are on the inside that counts. They're anti-intellectual, stuck in their ways, and close minded against creative thinking.

In turn, leftist thought tries to force conservatives to endure a performative contradiction by getting things wrong on purpose and saying they're right "just because" while claiming that conservatives are obviously wrong and trolls.

On the other hand, many leftists are indeed lazy bums who are just trying to straight up bully honest conservatives.

This was almost as bad as the OP's post. At least the OP only attacked one group of people without warrant or reason.


Are you saying leftists don't care about bullying? For example, the point of being moral emotivists, contextualists, and relativists is to transform society into a popularity contest where outcasts are victimized and leftists blame the victim?

Sorry, but I thought some leftists were a little more compassionate than that. I know many don't care because they're really just lazy bums and try to get whatever they will by being wise guys, but I figured they all weren't.

What the hell made you assume I said anything like that? Did you even read my post? I said you and him both attacked an entire group of people without a logic reason (him with Liberals and you with Conservative, and some Liberals also). I can't even imagine how you managed to twist up what I said that badly.
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Daktoria
Posts: 497
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4/23/2014 5:00:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 4:49:13 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 4/23/2014 3:06:44 PM, jimtimmy3 wrote:
I'm yet to see them. Whenever someone questions the left's blind faith in the state to do everything, you are either racist or classist.

Whenever someone questions the unscientific nature of egalitarian dogma, you are racist or sexist.

A view that opposes egalitarian doctrine is necessarily one that advocates the inequality of man! Jimmy, if you do support such a view that puts you in the same league Hitler. That's just the way it is!

Come to think of it, I haven't heard a real argument from the left in a long time. Calling an opponent racist or sexist or classist is not a real argument btw.

Anyone care to prove me wrong by actually offering an intelligent left wing argument?

A view that supports egalitarianism is necessarily one that believes in slavery where elites have to do things against their consent against non-elites.

This is why liberals are bullies. They believe it's permissible for elites to get attacked to drag them down to everyone else's level as long as elites aren't totally destroyed. They don't believe in treating people universally with respect based on who they are as individuals on the inside that counts.

Liberals are also closeminded to creative thinking. Their obsession with equality enslaves creative thinkers against their consent to fit in with what's normal in society. In essence, they're obsessed with the high school popularity contest where everything's about either being cool or being told you're not a team player since you aren't willing to be the clique's tool.
Daktoria
Posts: 497
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4/23/2014 5:01:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 4:57:25 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/23/2014 4:52:59 PM, Daktoria wrote:
At 4/23/2014 4:44:36 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/23/2014 4:00:05 PM, Daktoria wrote:
Leftist thought is built around bullying.

The problem is many conservatives are ruggedly individualist bullies who disrespect who individuals are on the inside that counts. They're anti-intellectual, stuck in their ways, and close minded against creative thinking.

In turn, leftist thought tries to force conservatives to endure a performative contradiction by getting things wrong on purpose and saying they're right "just because" while claiming that conservatives are obviously wrong and trolls.

On the other hand, many leftists are indeed lazy bums who are just trying to straight up bully honest conservatives.

This was almost as bad as the OP's post. At least the OP only attacked one group of people without warrant or reason.


Are you saying leftists don't care about bullying? For example, the point of being moral emotivists, contextualists, and relativists is to transform society into a popularity contest where outcasts are victimized and leftists blame the victim?

Sorry, but I thought some leftists were a little more compassionate than that. I know many don't care because they're really just lazy bums and try to get whatever they will by being wise guys, but I figured they all weren't.

What the hell made you assume I said anything like that? Did you even read my post? I said you and him both attacked an entire group of people without a logic reason (him with Liberals and you with Conservative, and some Liberals also). I can't even imagine how you managed to twist up what I said that badly.

I assumed you're literate and that you understood that when you use broad language that you leave yourself up to interpretation.

If you have a specific point to make, then specify it.
donald.keller
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4/23/2014 5:07:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 5:01:40 PM, Daktoria wrote:
At 4/23/2014 4:57:25 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/23/2014 4:52:59 PM, Daktoria wrote:
At 4/23/2014 4:44:36 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/23/2014 4:00:05 PM, Daktoria wrote:
Leftist thought is built around bullying.

The problem is many conservatives are ruggedly individualist bullies who disrespect who individuals are on the inside that counts. They're anti-intellectual, stuck in their ways, and close minded against creative thinking.

In turn, leftist thought tries to force conservatives to endure a performative contradiction by getting things wrong on purpose and saying they're right "just because" while claiming that conservatives are obviously wrong and trolls.

On the other hand, many leftists are indeed lazy bums who are just trying to straight up bully honest conservatives.

This was almost as bad as the OP's post. At least the OP only attacked one group of people without warrant or reason.


Are you saying leftists don't care about bullying? For example, the point of being moral emotivists, contextualists, and relativists is to transform society into a popularity contest where outcasts are victimized and leftists blame the victim?

Sorry, but I thought some leftists were a little more compassionate than that. I know many don't care because they're really just lazy bums and try to get whatever they will by being wise guys, but I figured they all weren't.

What the hell made you assume I said anything like that? Did you even read my post? I said you and him both attacked an entire group of people without a logic reason (him with Liberals and you with Conservative, and some Liberals also). I can't even imagine how you managed to twist up what I said that badly.

I assumed you're literate and that you understood that when you use broad language that you leave yourself up to interpretation.

If you have a specific point to make, then specify it.

That generalizing Conservatives as ruggedly individualist bullies who disrespect who individuals are on the inside that counts... and are anti-intellectual, stuck in their ways, and close minded against creative thinking is just as wrong as what the OP did.

In reality both sides can be close-minded and stuck in their ways. As for creative thinking, no one is against creative thought... It's certain aspects that people tend to be against. Conservative tend to be against certain types of creativity that they find immoral (like porn), and Liberals tend to also be against certain types. But ultimately it's a personal thing, and you can't generalize even half the group like that.
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Daktoria
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4/23/2014 5:17:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I said "many conservatives", not "conservatives". Don't soundbyte.

I agree with what you said about creative thinking as well. You can see what I said before about liberals and egalitarianism.
jimtimmy3
Posts: 189
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4/23/2014 5:18:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 4:51:30 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 4/23/2014 3:06:44 PM, jimtimmy3 wrote:
I'm yet to see them. Whenever someone questions the left's blind faith in the state to do everything, you are either racist or classist.

Whenever someone questions the unscientific nature of egalitarian dogma, you are racist or sexist.

Come to think of it, I haven't heard a real argument from the left in a long time. Calling an opponent racist or sexist or classist is not a real argument btw.

Anyone care to prove me wrong by actually offering an intelligent left wing argument?

Jimmy, everytime someone endorses an anti-egalitarian view of humankind, I will ALWAYS respond by calling them on it and associating them with similar believers. If you don't want me to do this, don't endorse anti-egalitarian views!

Otherwise expect it!

The problem is that anti egalitarian views are often the correct view. Correct as in factually correct. Not politically correct.

You may find scientific facts that contradict egalitarianism "racist" or "classist" or "feminist", but that doesn't make them any less true.
jimtimmy3
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4/23/2014 5:25:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 4:48:49 PM, progressivedem22 wrote:
*Sigh*

I step out for twelve measly hours and this happens!

Of course "the left" has intelligent arguments. There are doctors, lawyers, Nobel Laureates, et al. who lean to the left of the political spectrum. I'd love for you to point to one leftist on DDO who uses as the crux of their argument "you're racist!" I continue to hear this, but other than monty1, I haven't seen a single person who does this regularly -- and I certainly have not seen an intelligent person do it. I mean, I've seen many people on the right suggest that racism is no longer an issue, which I think is totally and completely misguided, but by pointing that out, I'm not invoking some type of "race card."

But, no, my argument against conservative ideology -- and I attack ideas, not people, and make arguments, not slanderous, baseless assertions pontificating -- is not that they're racist, sexist, or what have you, though some are. It's that they don't have the facts on their side. That's it. And, not to mention, they've become so extreme over the years it's difficult to keep up with them. There is no left-wing equivalent to right-wing climate change denial, for instance. Ezra Klein may want to assert that there is, but I think that view is fundamental wrong (see, I criticized a liberal, so now I'm cool, right?)

Anyway, I'd love to see some actual quotes demonstrating that people "on the left" simply use the race, sex, et al. card instead of making intellectual arguments. Otherwise, this topic is about as much pointless projection as the thread in the religion forum suggesting that atheists be barred from posting in it.

For now, I'm only going to respond to your point about their not being a left wing "equivalent" of climate change denial. Actually there is:

Oddly enough, climate change is an example of this.

It is hardly settled that man is the main cause for climate change.

It is hardly settled that climate change is a bad thing.

And, it is clear that policies like cap and trade wouldn't do much to budge the global temperature but would be economically destructive.

Other examples of left wing ignorance?

I got plenty:

1.) Economics. Left wing talking points on things like the minimum wage and incentive effects of unemployment benefits are absurdly wrong.

2.) History. Leftists are terribly ignorant of the racist, corrupt history of unions and the fact that unions had literally nothing to do with improving living standards. Also ignorance of progressivism itself and the New Deal.

3.) Gender Differences. Sorry folks, feminist dogma is at odds with biology.

4.) Racial differences. Again. Sorry. Racial achievement gaps have nothing to do with "discrimination". Genes play a role and skill differences do to. The science is very clear here. Like it or not.

5.) Organic movement is embarrassingly anti science.

6.) Tons of evidence that health insurance doesn't actually improve health much. Still dogmatic assertions that Obamacare is going to save lives.

There are a lot more examples, but those are just off the top of my head.
Juan_Pablo
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4/23/2014 5:27:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 5:18:30 PM, jimtimmy3 wrote:
At 4/23/2014 4:51:30 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
At 4/23/2014 3:06:44 PM, jimtimmy3 wrote:
I'm yet to see them. Whenever someone questions the left's blind faith in the state to do everything, you are either racist or classist.

Whenever someone questions the unscientific nature of egalitarian dogma, you are racist or sexist.

Come to think of it, I haven't heard a real argument from the left in a long time. Calling an opponent racist or sexist or classist is not a real argument btw.

Anyone care to prove me wrong by actually offering an intelligent left wing argument?

Jimmy, everytime someone endorses an anti-egalitarian view of humankind, I will ALWAYS respond by calling them on it and associating them with similar believers. If you don't want me to do this, don't endorse anti-egalitarian views!

Otherwise expect it!

The problem is that anti egalitarian views are often the correct view. Correct as in factually correct. Not politically correct.

You may find scientific facts that contradict egalitarianism "racist" or "classist" or "feminist", but that doesn't make them any less true.

Let me clear something up: are there people that are more athletic than others? Yes. Are there people that are more intelligent than others? Of course. Are there people who are more driven than others? Again, yes.

Should all people be treated equally in the eyes of the law? Absolutely. Does society have a responsibility to provide equal access to resources that it deems all people must have under the law? Yup.

De facto inequality is a fact of life. Anything can contribute to de facto inequality. A bad car accident can do it; a mental impairment; a natural disaster.

However, the egalitarianism that must be adopted by a civilization in order for it to thrive and be at peace is de jure (legal) egalitarianism--with specifies rights and liberties in the eyes of the law.

What I absolutely have a problem with is attitudes that accept de facto inequality and what to institutionalize that in the law--to begin defending legal inequality.

No. No. No. That is something I will never permit and which I'm willing to fight to the death if it comes to it!
Juan_Pablo
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4/23/2014 5:28:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Correction:

However, the egalitarianism that must be adopted by a civilization in order for it to thrive and be at peace is de jure (legal) egalitarianism--which specifies rights and liberties in the eyes of the law.
jimtimmy3
Posts: 189
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4/23/2014 5:29:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 4:37:45 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/23/2014 3:06:44 PM, jimtimmy3 wrote:
I'm yet to see them. Whenever someone questions the left's blind faith in the state to do everything, you are either racist or classist.

Whenever someone questions the unscientific nature of egalitarian dogma, you are racist or sexist.

Come to think of it, I haven't heard a real argument from the left in a long time. Calling an opponent racist or sexist or classist is not a real argument btw.

Anyone care to prove me wrong by actually offering an intelligent left wing argument?

I'll send you a challenge if you care to defend this assumption of yours.

Not gonna debate you. Here's why:

1.) I posed a question. No assertion was made.

2.) Don't like formal debates.

3.) I actually am "left wing" on lots of issues. I'm a libertarian across the board.
progressivedem22
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4/23/2014 5:41:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Well, this will be fun.

At 4/23/2014 5:25:17 PM, jimtimmy3 wrote:
At 4/23/2014 4:48:49 PM, progressivedem22 wrote:
*Sigh*

I step out for twelve measly hours and this happens!

Of course "the left" has intelligent arguments. There are doctors, lawyers, Nobel Laureates, et al. who lean to the left of the political spectrum. I'd love for you to point to one leftist on DDO who uses as the crux of their argument "you're racist!" I continue to hear this, but other than monty1, I haven't seen a single person who does this regularly -- and I certainly have not seen an intelligent person do it. I mean, I've seen many people on the right suggest that racism is no longer an issue, which I think is totally and completely misguided, but by pointing that out, I'm not invoking some type of "race card."

But, no, my argument against conservative ideology -- and I attack ideas, not people, and make arguments, not slanderous, baseless assertions pontificating -- is not that they're racist, sexist, or what have you, though some are. It's that they don't have the facts on their side. That's it. And, not to mention, they've become so extreme over the years it's difficult to keep up with them. There is no left-wing equivalent to right-wing climate change denial, for instance. Ezra Klein may want to assert that there is, but I think that view is fundamental wrong (see, I criticized a liberal, so now I'm cool, right?)

Anyway, I'd love to see some actual quotes demonstrating that people "on the left" simply use the race, sex, et al. card instead of making intellectual arguments. Otherwise, this topic is about as much pointless projection as the thread in the religion forum suggesting that atheists be barred from posting in it.


For now, I'm only going to respond to your point about their not being a left wing "equivalent" of climate change denial. Actually there is:

I asked you for quotes proving the crux of your topic, not for you to go on some massive right-wing rampage of points that we disagree on -- which you don't properly understand, anyway, but that's a subject for another thread -- and then point to them as "left-wing" ignorance.

Oddly enough, climate change is an example of this.

It is hardly settled that man is the main cause for climate change.

This is exactly my point. Yes, it is settled. 97.1% of peer-reviewed academic papers attest to the fact that anthropogenic climate change is a thing. 97.1% of scientists are 100% sure that this is an issue. Stop fooling yourself.

It is hardly settled that climate change is a bad thing.

2.9% of scientists -- I'm sure many of whom have been funded by the Koch brothers, who love to protect their precious fossil fuel investments -- don't accept it. Would you rather be on the side of the 2.9% or the 97.1%?

It's also curious that many, many, many of the anti-climate change arguments boil down to "God controls the weather!" which I'd hope we both can agree is utterly absurd.

And, it is clear that policies like cap and trade wouldn't do much to budge the global temperature but would be economically destructive.

You're saying it's clear as though there is comprehensive data on it, though there is not. It's merely an assertion. That's your problem, actually. You back up assertions with more assertions.

But we actually agree on one thing: cap and trade wouldn't do much. It's far too modest a proposal to have much of an impact, but it's a start.

Other examples of left wing ignorance?

I got plenty:

This should be good....

1.) Economics. Left wing talking points on things like the minimum wage and incentive effects of unemployment benefits are absurdly wrong.

Absolutely not, and it's stunning that every time right-wingers and left-wingers debate this issue -- and point out that productivity has dwarfed median income growth, that if we were to adjust for inflation the minimum wage would be significantly higher than it is today, that even data from the Congressional Research Service (a meta-study, mind you) says that there is "no discernible impact on unemployment" (and they also said the same thing about tax cuts, actually ) -- the right-winger usually needs to fall back on "freedom" or some complete nonsense.

There is an ignorance problem when it comes to economics, but it isn't the left who's guilty of it, my friend.

2.) History. Leftists are terribly ignorant of the racist, corrupt history of unions and the fact that unions had literally nothing to do with improving living standards. Also ignorance of progressivism itself and the New Deal.

Assertion upon assertion upon assertion. I'd love some actual facts.

3.) Gender Differences. Sorry folks, feminist dogma is at odds with biology.

More assertions. Where are your facts?

4.) Racial differences. Again. Sorry. Racial achievement gaps have nothing to do with "discrimination". Genes play a role and skill differences do to. The science is very clear here. Like it or not.

More assertions! This is fun. Where are your facts?

5.) Organic movement is embarrassingly anti science.

Assertions. Where are your facts?

6.) Tons of evidence that health insurance doesn't actually improve health much. Still dogmatic assertions that Obamacare is going to save lives.

There is no evidence of this whatsoever. You are not only wrong, but embarrassingly wrong on this. AND, ObamaCare was a Republican healthcare plan implemented in 2006 by the 2012 GOP nominee, which conservatives seem to be very ignorant of.

There are a lot more examples, but those are just off the top of my head.

No, those aren't example. You're embarrassing yourself with assertion upon assertion upon assertion upon assertion. You are unwilling to step out of your bubble -- your same bubble that led many on Fox to claim that "Romney would win the election in a landslide" -- and accept that you could just be wrong. But here's the difference between you and me: we could have a civil disagreement on the minimum wage, and I wouldn't throw around the "ignorant" card, or make hasty generalizations to demonize my opposition -- at least without facts. You have no facts. All you have is ideology and dogma.
Juan_Pablo
Posts: 2,052
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4/23/2014 5:43:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 5:25:17 PM, jimtimmy3 wrote:
At 4/23/2014 4:48:49 PM, progressivedem22 wrote:
*Sigh*

I step out for twelve measly hours and this happens!

Of course "the left" has intelligent arguments. There are doctors, lawyers, Nobel Laureates, et al. who lean to the left of the political spectrum. I'd love for you to point to one leftist on DDO who uses as the crux of their argument "you're racist!" I continue to hear this, but other than monty1, I haven't seen a single person who does this regularly -- and I certainly have not seen an intelligent person do it. I mean, I've seen many people on the right suggest that racism is no longer an issue, which I think is totally and completely misguided, but by pointing that out, I'm not invoking some type of "race card."

But, no, my argument against conservative ideology -- and I attack ideas, not people, and make arguments, not slanderous, baseless assertions pontificating -- is not that they're racist, sexist, or what have you, though some are. It's that they don't have the facts on their side. That's it. And, not to mention, they've become so extreme over the years it's difficult to keep up with them. There is no left-wing equivalent to right-wing climate change denial, for instance. Ezra Klein may want to assert that there is, but I think that view is fundamental wrong (see, I criticized a liberal, so now I'm cool, right?)

Anyway, I'd love to see some actual quotes demonstrating that people "on the left" simply use the race, sex, et al. card instead of making intellectual arguments. Otherwise, this topic is about as much pointless projection as the thread in the religion forum suggesting that atheists be barred from posting in it.


For now, I'm only going to respond to your point about their not being a left wing "equivalent" of climate change denial. Actually there is:

Oddly enough, climate change is an example of this.

It is hardly settled that man is the main cause for climate change.

It is hardly settled that climate change is a bad thing.

And, it is clear that policies like cap and trade wouldn't do much to budge the global temperature but would be economically destructive.

Other examples of left wing ignorance?

I got plenty:

1.) Economics. Left wing talking points on things like the minimum wage and incentive effects of unemployment benefits are absurdly wrong.

2.) History. Leftists are terribly ignorant of the racist, corrupt history of unions and the fact that unions had literally nothing to do with improving living standards. Also ignorance of progressivism itself and the New Deal.

3.) Gender Differences. Sorry folks, feminist dogma is at odds with biology.

4.) Racial differences. Again. Sorry. Racial achievement gaps have nothing to do with "discrimination". Genes play a role and skill differences do to. The science is very clear here. Like it or not.

5.) Organic movement is embarrassingly anti science.

6.) Tons of evidence that health insurance doesn't actually improve health much. Still dogmatic assertions that Obamacare is going to save lives.

There are a lot more examples, but those are just off the top of my head.

Jimtimmy, you have the right to your beliefs. But I have the right to tell you that many of the views you just listed are utter, destructive garbage! You're part of the problem at this moment and not part of the solution.
donald.keller
Posts: 3,709
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4/23/2014 5:46:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 5:29:49 PM, jimtimmy3 wrote:
At 4/23/2014 4:37:45 PM, donald.keller wrote:
At 4/23/2014 3:06:44 PM, jimtimmy3 wrote:
I'm yet to see them. Whenever someone questions the left's blind faith in the state to do everything, you are either racist or classist.

Whenever someone questions the unscientific nature of egalitarian dogma, you are racist or sexist.

Come to think of it, I haven't heard a real argument from the left in a long time. Calling an opponent racist or sexist or classist is not a real argument btw.

Anyone care to prove me wrong by actually offering an intelligent left wing argument?

I'll send you a challenge if you care to defend this assumption of yours.

Not gonna debate you. Here's why:

1.) I posed a question. No assertion was made.

Your entire post was an assertion. You didn't say "Is this true?" You said "This is true, prove me wrong." You specifically challenged everyone to prove you wrong.

2.) Don't like formal debates.

Then leave. Seriously, this is a debate site.

3.) I actually am "left wing" on lots of issues. I'm a libertarian across the board.

And your point? You made a claim. Either defend it or concede.
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MyDinosaurHands
Posts: 203
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4/23/2014 5:54:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 4:35:03 PM, thett3 wrote:
Yes, the left has intelligent arguments. You're falsely equivocating the worst kind of leftists who demonize all opposition as racist/sexist with intelligent people who fall to the left on the political spectrum.
Guess what I used to type this..

Careful! Don't laugh too hard.
progressivedem22
Posts: 1,304
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4/23/2014 5:54:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Also, no one has advocated for complete equality. None of us, so far as I know, want the wealth distribution to resemble line of perfect equality, even though Sweden's Lorenz curve is actually quite similar. We simply want a more equal society and think that tried-and-failed right-wing policies need to be dumped in the ash heap of history.
jimtimmy3
Posts: 189
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4/23/2014 6:09:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/23/2014 5:41:37 PM, progressivedem22 wrote:
Well, this will be fun.

At 4/23/2014 5:25:17 PM, jimtimmy3 wrote:
At 4/23/2014 4:48:49 PM, progressivedem22 wrote:
*Sigh*

I step out for twelve measly hours and this happens!

Of course "the left" has intelligent arguments. There are doctors, lawyers, Nobel Laureates, et al. who lean to the left of the political spectrum. I'd love for you to point to one leftist on DDO who uses as the crux of their argument "you're racist!" I continue to hear this, but other than monty1, I haven't seen a single person who does this regularly -- and I certainly have not seen an intelligent person do it. I mean, I've seen many people on the right suggest that racism is no longer an issue, which I think is totally and completely misguided, but by pointing that out, I'm not invoking some type of "race card."

But, no, my argument against conservative ideology -- and I attack ideas, not people, and make arguments, not slanderous, baseless assertions pontificating -- is not that they're racist, sexist, or what have you, though some are. It's that they don't have the facts on their side. That's it. And, not to mention, they've become so extreme over the years it's difficult to keep up with them. There is no left-wing equivalent to right-wing climate change denial, for instance. Ezra Klein may want to assert that there is, but I think that view is fundamental wrong (see, I criticized a liberal, so now I'm cool, right?)

Anyway, I'd love to see some actual quotes demonstrating that people "on the left" simply use the race, sex, et al. card instead of making intellectual arguments. Otherwise, this topic is about as much pointless projection as the thread in the religion forum suggesting that atheists be barred from posting in it.


For now, I'm only going to respond to your point about their not being a left wing "equivalent" of climate change denial. Actually there is:

I asked you for quotes proving the crux of your topic, not for you to go on some massive right-wing rampage of points that we disagree on -- which you don't properly understand, anyway, but that's a subject for another thread -- and then point to them as "left-wing" ignorance.

Oddly enough, climate change is an example of this.

It is hardly settled that man is the main cause for climate change.

This is exactly my point. Yes, it is settled. 97.1% of peer-reviewed academic papers attest to the fact that anthropogenic climate change is a thing. 97.1% of scientists are 100% sure that this is an issue. Stop fooling yourself.

97% figure is totally bogus:

http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com...


It is hardly settled that climate change is a bad thing.

2.9% of scientists -- I'm sure many of whom have been funded by the Koch brothers, who love to protect their precious fossil fuel investments -- don't accept it. Would you rather be on the side of the 2.9% or the 97.1%?

Ad hominem against the koch brothers... and the bogus statistic again. Wonderful.


It's also curious that many, many, many of the anti-climate change arguments boil down to "God controls the weather!" which I'd hope we both can agree is utterly absurd.

Ya. I've never even heard that argument. But, it really isn't that much more absurd than silly environmentalist claims about population growth (for example).


And, it is clear that policies like cap and trade wouldn't do much to budge the global temperature but would be economically destructive.

You're saying it's clear as though there is comprehensive data on it, though there is not. It's merely an assertion. That's your problem, actually. You back up assertions with more assertions.

But we actually agree on one thing: cap and trade wouldn't do much. It's far too modest a proposal to have much of an impact, but it's a start.

It's not even really a start. But, there is data. Some good stuff about this and related issues can be found in this excellent book:

http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com...


Other examples of left wing ignorance?

I got plenty:

This should be good....

It is.


1.) Economics. Left wing talking points on things like the minimum wage and incentive effects of unemployment benefits are absurdly wrong.

Absolutely not, and it's stunning that every time right-wingers and left-wingers debate this issue -- and point out that productivity has dwarfed median income growth, that if we were to adjust for inflation the minimum wage would be significantly higher than it is today, that even data from the Congressional Research Service (a meta-study, mind you) says that there is "no discernible impact on unemployment" (and they also said the same thing about tax cuts, actually ) -- the right-winger usually needs to fall back on "freedom" or some complete nonsense.


There is an ignorance problem when it comes to economics, but it isn't the left who's guilty of it, my friend.

Ya, it is the left. The right, to my knowledge, don't deny supply and demand and incentives when inconvenient. The left do.


2.) History. Leftists are terribly ignorant of the racist, corrupt history of unions and the fact that unions had literally nothing to do with improving living standards. Also ignorance of progressivism itself and the New Deal.

Assertion upon assertion upon assertion. I'd love some actual facts.

Ugh. I don't feel like dragging down links for all these claims now. But, I'll briefly explain the new deal. The New Deal artificially propped up wages and set an environment of regime uncertainty that stifled growth. There is data to support this, but I don't feel like digging it up right now. Will later if i have time.


3.) Gender Differences. Sorry folks, feminist dogma is at odds with biology.

More assertions. Where are your facts?

Do you seriously dispute that genders have biological mental differences?


4.) Racial differences. Again. Sorry. Racial achievement gaps have nothing to do with "discrimination". Genes play a role and skill differences do to. The science is very clear here. Like it or not.

More assertions! This is fun. Where are your facts?

Ditto. Do you seriously dispute this?


5.) Organic movement is embarrassingly anti science.

Assertions. Where are your facts?

I thought people were aware that these were settled scientific questions. I guess the left hasnt gotten the memo.


6.) Tons of evidence that health insurance doesn't actually improve health much. Still dogmatic assertions that Obamacare is going to save lives.

There is no evidence of this whatsoever. You are not only wrong, but embarrassingly wrong on this. AND, ObamaCare was a Republican healthcare plan implemented in 2006 by the 2012 GOP nominee, which conservatives seem to be very ignorant of.

Ever heard of Oregon. And, ya, Republicans suck.


There are a lot more examples, but those are just off the top of my head.

No, those aren't example. You're embarrassing yourself with assertion upon assertion upon assertion upon assertion. You are unwilling to step out of your bubble -- your same bubble that led many on Fox to claim that "Romney would win the election in a landslide" -- and accept that you could just be wrong. But here's the difference between you and me: we could have a civil disagreement on the minimum wage, and I wouldn't throw around the "ignorant" card, or make hasty generalizations to demonize my opposition -- at least without facts. You have no facts. All you have is ideology and dogma.

Wow. Do you realize that I'm a libertar