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Pledge Of Allegiance

indago
Posts: 51
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4/28/2014 6:38:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
From The Associated Press 22 April 2014:
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A family is suing a New Jersey school district, contending that the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance discriminates against atheist children. ...the phrase, added in 1954, "marginalizes atheist and humanist kids as something less than ideal patriots."
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http://hosted.ap.org...

"under God": added during the era of the McCarthy hearings.

Now, why would we want to be continually reminded of the McCarthy hearings with the "under God" designation in a pledge of allegiance? That period was a dastardly stain on our history. It should be removed from the pledge. Actually, the whole pledge of allegiance should be eliminated.
DanT
Posts: 5,693
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4/28/2014 7:03:47 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/28/2014 6:38:02 PM, indago wrote:
From The Associated Press 22 April 2014:
------------------------------------------------------------
A family is suing a New Jersey school district, contending that the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance discriminates against atheist children. ...the phrase, added in 1954, "marginalizes atheist and humanist kids as something less than ideal patriots."
------------------------------------------------------------

http://hosted.ap.org...

"under God": added during the era of the McCarthy hearings.

Now, why would we want to be continually reminded of the McCarthy hearings with the "under God" designation in a pledge of allegiance? That period was a dastardly stain on our history. It should be removed from the pledge. Actually, the whole pledge of allegiance should be eliminated.

Making children invoke God's name as they swear an oath of allegiance to the Federal Government can also violate the 1st amendment rights of the faithful. If they invoke God's name without realizing what they are pledging, they would be using God's name in vain.
"Chemical weapons are no different than any other types of weapons."~Lordknukle
indago
Posts: 51
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4/29/2014 10:14:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Considering the term allegiance, and the hierarchical relationship between the people, the State, and the federal government, as recorded in Article Ten of the Bill of Rights, the pledge of allegiance to the flag, and to the United States, should be abolished. All who work for government should be required, every morning, to pledge their allegiance to the people whom they serve; and to reaffirm their oath to uphold the Constitution. This would be a daily reminder of their status, and their servile position. It is predictable that their attitude would change.

We rejected the feudal society concept that pervaded the European continent, why should we now embrace such a concept here?
drhead
Posts: 1,475
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4/29/2014 2:21:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/28/2014 6:38:02 PM, indago wrote:
From The Associated Press 22 April 2014:
------------------------------------------------------------
A family is suing a New Jersey school district, contending that the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance discriminates against atheist children. ...the phrase, added in 1954, "marginalizes atheist and humanist kids as something less than ideal patriots."
------------------------------------------------------------

http://hosted.ap.org...

"under God": added during the era of the McCarthy hearings.

Now, why would we want to be continually reminded of the McCarthy hearings with the "under God" designation in a pledge of allegiance? That period was a dastardly stain on our history. It should be removed from the pledge. Actually, the whole pledge of allegiance should be eliminated.

I can actually understand arguments in favor of removing the pledge. When you are in elementary school and are being forced to say the pledge of allegiance every day, while you are too young to truly understand its meaning and implications, what meaning does it even have? You're just being forced to say some words. That is the only meaning it has. You could literally rename it to "These Words I Have to Say Every Morning" and it wouldn't change how students mentally process it at all.

It's like having your parents tell you to "say the magic words" followed by you letting out a forced, almost reluctant "Thank you, Mom/Dad". You're too young at that age to appreciate or even hold an informed opinion of the nation you live in. But just as you will eventually look back on what your parents did for you and you will get an opportunity to see what they did that other parents wouldn't do for you so you can actually appreciate what they did, the same thing will happen for you and your country (or not, if you end up holding a negative opinion of your country. Which can happen with your parents, too). Then you'll realize how incredibly empty your expressions of gratitude were up to that point...
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"You reject religion... calling it a sickness, to what ends??? Are you a Homosexual??" - Dogknox
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indago
Posts: 51
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4/30/2014 7:22:58 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/29/2014 2:21:28 PM, drhead wrote:
At 4/28/2014 6:38:02 PM, indago wrote:
From The Associated Press 22 April 2014:
------------------------------------------------------------
A family is suing a New Jersey school district, contending that the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance discriminates against atheist children. ...the phrase, added in 1954, "marginalizes atheist and humanist kids as something less than ideal patriots."
------------------------------------------------------------

http://hosted.ap.org...

"under God": added during the era of the McCarthy hearings.

Now, why would we want to be continually reminded of the McCarthy hearings with the "under God" designation in a pledge of allegiance? That period was a dastardly stain on our history. It should be removed from the pledge. Actually, the whole pledge of allegiance should be eliminated.

I can actually understand arguments in favor of removing the pledge. When you are in elementary school and are being forced to say the pledge of allegiance every day, while you are too young to truly understand its meaning and implications, what meaning does it even have? You're just being forced to say some words. That is the only meaning it has. You could literally rename it to "These Words I Have to Say Every Morning" and it wouldn't change how students mentally process it at all.

It's like having your parents tell you to "say the magic words" followed by you letting out a forced, almost reluctant "Thank you, Mom/Dad". You're too young at that age to appreciate or even hold an informed opinion of the nation you live in. But just as you will eventually look back on what your parents did for you and you will get an opportunity to see what they did that other parents wouldn't do for you so you can actually appreciate what they did, the same thing will happen for you and your country (or not, if you end up holding a negative opinion of your country. Which can happen with your parents, too). Then you'll realize how incredibly empty your expressions of gratitude were up to that point...

"Critics feel that the pledge is incompatible with democracy and freedom, and suggest that pledges of allegiance are features of totalitarian states like Nazi Germany."

http://en.wikipedia.org...

"Words uttered under coercion are proof of loyalty to nothing but self-interest. Love of country must spring from willing hearts and free minds, inspired by a fair administration of wise laws enacted by the people's elected representatives within the bounds of express constitutional prohibitions." " Justice Hugo Black

"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein." " Justice Robert Jackson

http://www.oyez.org...
indago
Posts: 51
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4/30/2014 7:24:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
"Francis Bellamy, the author of the Pledge, was a former Baptist minister who preached that Jesus was a socialist. He was allied ideologically with his cousin, Edward Bellamy, one of the most renowned socialists of the late 19th century. Strongly opposed to the evils of capitalism, Francis advocated income taxation, central banking, nationalized education, nationalization of industry, and other tenets of socialism. A primary objective of his was to replace the existing federalist view of the country (where states are sovereign) in the public's mind with a nationalist one that would open the way to creating a centralized government.

When provided the opportunity to write a pledge to the American flag in a campaign to sell flags to public schools, Bellamy turned to the words and principles of socialism. Put simply, if American youth could to be taught "loyalty to the State", it would pave the way for the socialist utopia that was described in his famous socialist cousin Edward Bellamy"s "Looking Backward". The central idea of "one nation" in the pledge was especially important for achieving his vision of the kind of consolidated, monopoly government necessary for a socialism to be adopted. Additionally, he considered adding the socialist bywords, "liberty, fraternity and equality", but knew that state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans.

As Bellamy believed youth should be trained in devotion to the State, the public schools as a government institution were the perfect setting for planting the requisite fervent loyalty and patriotism. To promote the Pledge nationwide, a "National Public School Celebration" was held 1892 on Columbus Day. It was the first government sponsored propaganda event on behalf of the Pledge of Allegiance. It was a massive campaign that involved government schools and politicians throughout the country. Not only was the Pledge recited en mass for the first time at the behest of government, but public schools were promoted while private schools, especially parochial ones, were criticized."

http://en.wikipedia.org...
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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4/30/2014 11:25:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
It has to have a fairly big influence on the people because it has to be a good part of the reason why Americans are easily maneuvered into supporting their country's wars. If it was abandoned then the children wouldn't have that so essential start in life that indoctrinates them the same way Christianity does to them.

For that reason there will always be huge resistance by those who control the emotions of the people to letting it go. At the same time they would be letting go of their grasp on those who do their bidding in their so numerous wars of aggression.

For decent people with the inclination to fight against it, there's the real reason to do so. There can't be a better cause or indeed, a better time, as the world matures militarily by becoming nuclear capable of defending itself. Not to mention even that the torture has gone on so long now that there has to be millions and millions of people in foreign lands thinking about revenge. Some of them are eventually going to be clever enough to act it out!
indago
Posts: 51
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5/12/2014 10:30:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
"The very idea of a pledge of allegiance, in any form, is completely at odds with what is often called "the American Creed," inspired by the 17th-century philosopher John Locke"s theory of natural rights and government by popular consent. The concept of "allegiance" is feudal. In medieval Europe, the liegeman, or subject, pledged allegiance to his liege lord. But in Lockean America, there is no government outside of society to which the members of the society could pledge allegiance, even if they wanted to."

http://www.salon.com...

"The book tells the story of Julian West, a young American who, towards the end of the 19th century, falls into a deep, hypnosis-induced sleep and wakes up one hundred and thirteen years later. He finds himself in the same location (Boston, Massachusetts), but in a totally changed world: It is the year 2000 and, while he was sleeping, the United States has been transformed into a socialist utopia. The remainder of the book outlines Bellamy's thoughts about improving the future. The major themes include problems associated with capitalism, a proposed socialist solution of a nationalisation of all industry, the use of an "industrial army" to organize production and distribution, as well as how to ensure free cultural production under such conditions.

The young man readily finds a guide, Doctor Leete, who shows him around and explains all the advances of this new age; including drastically reduced working hours for people performing menial jobs and almost instantaneous, Internet-like delivery of goods. Everyone retires with full benefits at age 45, and may eat in any of the public kitchens. The productive capacity of America is nationally owned, and the goods of society are equally distributed to its citizens. ...Bellamy labeled the philosophy behind the vision "nationalism", and his work inspired the formation of more than 160 Nationalist Clubs to propagate his ideas.

Despite the "ethical" character of his socialism (though he was initially reluctant to use the term "socialism"), Bellamy's ideas somewhat reflect classical Marxism."

"the nation is the sole employer and capitalist"

http://en.wikipedia.org...