Total Posts:59|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Russia Needs to Act Soon

monty1
Posts: 1,084
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2014 1:21:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
To save the pro-Russian Ukrainians who are being slaughtered by the illegal Ukraine installed regime. And Russia is within it's legal right to act because it has been requested by Yanukovich who is the Ukraine's lawfully elected leader.
Citrakayah
Posts: 1,500
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2014 2:11:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/2/2014 1:21:49 PM, monty1 wrote:
To save the pro-Russian Ukrainians who are being slaughtered by the illegal Ukraine installed regime. And Russia is within it's legal right to act because it has been requested by Yanukovich who is the Ukraine's lawfully elected leader.

Just so we're clear...

Russia needs to save Ukraine from a regime... installed by Ukraine.
WheezySquash8
Posts: 130
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2014 3:49:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/2/2014 2:11:23 PM, Citrakayah wrote:
At 5/2/2014 1:21:49 PM, monty1 wrote:
To save the pro-Russian Ukrainians who are being slaughtered by the illegal Ukraine installed regime. And Russia is within it's legal right to act because it has been requested by Yanukovich who is the Ukraine's lawfully elected leader.

Just so we're clear...

Russia needs to save Ukraine from a regime... installed by Ukraine.

Amen.
Pacifist Since 3/12/14
Wheezy
debateuser
Posts: 1,094
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2014 11:24:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/2/2014 1:21:49 PM, monty1 wrote:
To save the pro-Russian Ukrainians who are being slaughtered by the illegal Ukraine installed regime. And Russia is within it's legal right to act because it has been requested by Yanukovich who is the Ukraine's lawfully elected leader.

I think the neo Nazis in Ukraine are going to spread Nazism throughout the world. We dont want another hitler like regime. Personally I am not in favour of any sort of racism or any other discrimination. So whoever stops racism will have my best wishes.
Scientific Errors In Religion : Atheists are right that religion is a myth

Read this topic on below link:

http://www.debate.org...
monty1
Posts: 1,084
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2014 12:01:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/3/2014 11:24:51 AM, debateuser wrote:
At 5/2/2014 1:21:49 PM, monty1 wrote:
To save the pro-Russian Ukrainians who are being slaughtered by the illegal Ukraine installed regime. And Russia is within it's legal right to act because it has been requested by Yanukovich who is the Ukraine's lawfully elected leader.

I think the neo Nazis in Ukraine are going to spread Nazism throughout the world. We dont want another hitler like regime. Personally I am not in favour of any sort of racism or any other discrimination. So whoever stops racism will have my best wishes.

Don't worry about Nazism being spread throughout the world, that's a silly idea. Whatever the regime is that is trying to take power in the Ukraine, the only important thing about them is that they are anti-Russia. And so, if they succeed then a force that is anti-Russia will have succeeded.

Agreed?

Then if you agree on that then it would pay you to consider what force would benefit from that result? It most certainly wouldn't be terrorists or neo-Nazis. I would suggest that it would have to be a rightist force from somewhere?
monty1
Posts: 1,084
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2014 12:02:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/3/2014 11:47:35 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
Every comment on this thread has been one of pure stupidity

Comments such as that are just going to relegate you right back to where we started. I'm giving you another chance but I'm losing patience with that kind of behaviour.
debateuser
Posts: 1,094
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2014 12:23:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/3/2014 12:01:00 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 11:24:51 AM, debateuser wrote:
At 5/2/2014 1:21:49 PM, monty1 wrote:
To save the pro-Russian Ukrainians who are being slaughtered by the illegal Ukraine installed regime. And Russia is within it's legal right to act because it has been requested by Yanukovich who is the Ukraine's lawfully elected leader.

I think the neo Nazis in Ukraine are going to spread Nazism throughout the world. We dont want another hitler like regime. Personally I am not in favour of any sort of racism or any other discrimination. So whoever stops racism will have my best wishes.



Then if you agree on that then it would pay you to consider what force would benefit from that result? It most certainly wouldn't be terrorists or neo-Nazis. I would suggest that it would have to be a rightist force from somewhere?

Yes i do agree that a master right racist force might benefit if a right racist force in ukraine succeeds. Nobody wants that. Because if right racism spreads it not only affects the minorities but also the majority of any country. Lots of hate crimes everywhere .

I just hope everyone comes to their senses and start supporting anti-racist forces everywhere .
Scientific Errors In Religion : Atheists are right that religion is a myth

Read this topic on below link:

http://www.debate.org...
Blade-of-Truth
Posts: 5,032
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2014 4:32:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is nothing new if one simply looks at the history of the two countries. The problem is both sides feel they are justified and both are heavily influenced by two opposing forces that are striving for power over the region (mostly the resources as witnessed in Crimea). The only comment I have on this topic is that American soldiers should not be placed on the ground in Ukraine.
Debate.org Deputy Vote Moderator
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DDO Voting Guide: http://www.debate.org...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Need a judge on your debate? Nominate me! http://www.debate.org...
Bemouh
Posts: 19
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/4/2014 2:14:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/2/2014 1:21:49 PM, monty1 wrote:
To save the pro-Russian Ukrainians who are being slaughtered by the illegal Ukraine installed regime. And Russia is within it's legal right to act because it has been requested by Yanukovich who is the Ukraine's lawfully elected leader.

I totally agree, I do believe after the escalations of the past days, it's not long anymore before Russia will step in and act against the crimes comitted by the coup-imposed regime in Kiev.
Nulles Evadit - Cross Corps
Kc1999
Posts: 1,037
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/4/2014 2:28:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 2:14:07 AM, Bemouh wrote:
At 5/2/2014 1:21:49 PM, monty1 wrote:
To save the pro-Russian Ukrainians who are being slaughtered by the illegal Ukraine installed regime. And Russia is within it's legal right to act because it has been requested by Yanukovich who is the Ukraine's lawfully elected leader.

I totally agree, I do believe after the escalations of the past days, it's not long anymore before Russia will step in and act against the crimes comitted by the coup-imposed regime in Kiev.

Glory to Crimean Russia!

Crimea was never Ukranian to start with, and will never be! :D
#NoToMobocracy #BladeStroink
Bemouh
Posts: 19
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/4/2014 2:34:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 2:28:07 AM, Kc1999 wrote:
At 5/4/2014 2:14:07 AM, Bemouh wrote:
At 5/2/2014 1:21:49 PM, monty1 wrote:
To save the pro-Russian Ukrainians who are being slaughtered by the illegal Ukraine installed regime. And Russia is within it's legal right to act because it has been requested by Yanukovich who is the Ukraine's lawfully elected leader.

I totally agree, I do believe after the escalations of the past days, it's not long anymore before Russia will step in and act against the crimes comitted by the coup-imposed regime in Kiev.

Glory to Crimean Russia!

Crimea was never Ukranian to start with, and will never be! :D

Russians sadle their horses slow, but once they ride, they ride fast.
Amen to that.
Nulles Evadit - Cross Corps
neutral
Posts: 4,478
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/4/2014 3:17:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 2:34:21 AM, Bemouh wrote:
At 5/4/2014 2:28:07 AM, Kc1999 wrote:
At 5/4/2014 2:14:07 AM, Bemouh wrote:
At 5/2/2014 1:21:49 PM, monty1 wrote:
To save the pro-Russian Ukrainians who are being slaughtered by the illegal Ukraine installed regime. And Russia is within it's legal right to act because it has been requested by Yanukovich who is the Ukraine's lawfully elected leader.

I totally agree, I do believe after the escalations of the past days, it's not long anymore before Russia will step in and act against the crimes comitted by the coup-imposed regime in Kiev.

Glory to Crimean Russia!

Crimea was never Ukranian to start with, and will never be! :D

Russians sadle their horses slow, but once they ride, they ride fast.
Amen to that.

Does anyone in this thread, so eager for war, actually understand what they are asking Russia to do?

Ukraine is about half a million square miles. How far exactly do you think 40,000 Soldiers are going to get? Can they shoot their way in? Yep. And then what?

What happened when we shot our way into Baghdad? That is when thermal war started correct? What happened when Russia attacked a much smaller Nation that Ukraine? Shot their way into Grozny, Chechnya? You think there is no one there who is mindful of this? You think Afghanistan has faded from Russian memory? That they are unaware of the Cossack traditions of Ukraine?

In comparison, to control Iraq, at the height of the War, we had 200,000 Soldiers on the ground, while the Iraqis fielded 6-700,000 Soldiers, and an additional 6-700,000 police (not to mention thousands of more local militias like the Suna Awakening), that took almost a 2 million Soldiers to control a situation in a country smaller, more arid (less places to hide), and with fewer people.

Does anyone seriously think that a Russian invasion would not immediately result in, at the very least, the former East block members of NATO actively supplying any insurgent force in Ukraine?

Russia last ill thought out venture into Afghanistan, soaking to with billions of dollars in expenses it could ill afford, caused its collapse.

The stupidest thing Russia could possibly do would be to invade. It might start out well for them, but in the modern reality of hyper Nationalism, the result would be a nightmare and virtually guarantee Western encroachment right up to the border of Russia - with that border now minded by an implacable and utterly hostile foe. And that is the best case result from an invasion.

Doe people really think that trumped up propaganda about 'neo-nazis' is a good enough reason to get involved in a war? Good Luck.

Similar arguments were made in 1914 ... look how that turned out. More power to Russia and their supporters who have failed to learn their lessons.
monty1
Posts: 1,084
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/4/2014 11:24:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 3:17:37 AM, neutral wrote:
At 5/4/2014 2:34:21 AM, Bemouh wrote:
At 5/4/2014 2:28:07 AM, Kc1999 wrote:
At 5/4/2014 2:14:07 AM, Bemouh wrote:
At 5/2/2014 1:21:49 PM, monty1 wrote:
To save the pro-Russian Ukrainians who are being slaughtered by the illegal Ukraine installed regime. And Russia is within it's legal right to act because it has been requested by Yanukovich who is the Ukraine's lawfully elected leader.

I totally agree, I do believe after the escalations of the past days, it's not long anymore before Russia will step in and act against the crimes comitted by the coup-imposed regime in Kiev.

Glory to Crimean Russia!

Crimea was never Ukranian to start with, and will never be! :D

Russians sadle their horses slow, but once they ride, they ride fast.
Amen to that.

Does anyone in this thread, so eager for war, actually understand what they are asking Russia to do?

Ukraine is about half a million square miles. How far exactly do you think 40,000 Soldiers are going to get? Can they shoot their way in? Yep. And then what?

What happened when we shot our way into Baghdad? That is when thermal war started correct? What happened when Russia attacked a much smaller Nation that Ukraine? Shot their way into Grozny, Chechnya? You think there is no one there who is mindful of this? You think Afghanistan has faded from Russian memory? That they are unaware of the Cossack traditions of Ukraine?

In comparison, to control Iraq, at the height of the War, we had 200,000 Soldiers on the ground, while the Iraqis fielded 6-700,000 Soldiers, and an additional 6-700,000 police (not to mention thousands of more local militias like the Suna Awakening), that took almost a 2 million Soldiers to control a situation in a country smaller, more arid (less places to hide), and with fewer people.

Does anyone seriously think that a Russian invasion would not immediately result in, at the very least, the former East block members of NATO actively supplying any insurgent force in Ukraine?

Russia last ill thought out venture into Afghanistan, soaking to with billions of dollars in expenses it could ill afford, caused its collapse.

The stupidest thing Russia could possibly do would be to invade. It might start out well for them, but in the modern reality of hyper Nationalism, the result would be a nightmare and virtually guarantee Western encroachment right up to the border of Russia - with that border now minded by an implacable and utterly hostile foe. And that is the best case result from an invasion.

Doe people really think that trumped up propaganda about 'neo-nazis' is a good enough reason to get involved in a war? Good Luck.

Similar arguments were made in 1914 ... look how that turned out. More power to Russia and their supporters who have failed to learn their lessons.

Russia's hand is being forced with the killing of the Russian speaking people of the Ukraine who don't want the US and Nato. If Russia does nothing then that's what they are going to get because it's pretty obvious now that is the US/Nato intention.

It's time to make a stand. And it's not as if the rhetoric on the other side isn't saying the same thing. I see it as better that Russia makes the stand in the Eastern Ukraine rather than from within their own borders. Nuclear war? No, because the US/Nato doesn't play that kind of game. The game is steady encroachment upon Russia.
neutral
Posts: 4,478
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/4/2014 11:50:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 11:24:04 AM, monty1 wrote:
At 5/4/2014 3:17:37 AM, neutral wrote:
At 5/4/2014 2:34:21 AM, Bemouh wrote:
At 5/4/2014 2:28:07 AM, Kc1999 wrote:
At 5/4/2014 2:14:07 AM, Bemouh wrote:
At 5/2/2014 1:21:49 PM, monty1 wrote:
To save the pro-Russian Ukrainians who are being slaughtered by the illegal Ukraine installed regime. And Russia is within it's legal right to act because it has been requested by Yanukovich who is the Ukraine's lawfully elected leader.

I totally agree, I do believe after the escalations of the past days, it's not long anymore before Russia will step in and act against the crimes comitted by the coup-imposed regime in Kiev.

Glory to Crimean Russia!

Crimea was never Ukranian to start with, and will never be! :D

Russians sadle their horses slow, but once they ride, they ride fast.
Amen to that.

Does anyone in this thread, so eager for war, actually understand what they are asking Russia to do?

Ukraine is about half a million square miles. How far exactly do you think 40,000 Soldiers are going to get? Can they shoot their way in? Yep. And then what?

What happened when we shot our way into Baghdad? That is when thermal war started correct? What happened when Russia attacked a much smaller Nation that Ukraine? Shot their way into Grozny, Chechnya? You think there is no one there who is mindful of this? You think Afghanistan has faded from Russian memory? That they are unaware of the Cossack traditions of Ukraine?

In comparison, to control Iraq, at the height of the War, we had 200,000 Soldiers on the ground, while the Iraqis fielded 6-700,000 Soldiers, and an additional 6-700,000 police (not to mention thousands of more local militias like the Suna Awakening), that took almost a 2 million Soldiers to control a situation in a country smaller, more arid (less places to hide), and with fewer people.

Does anyone seriously think that a Russian invasion would not immediately result in, at the very least, the former East block members of NATO actively supplying any insurgent force in Ukraine?

Russia last ill thought out venture into Afghanistan, soaking to with billions of dollars in expenses it could ill afford, caused its collapse.

The stupidest thing Russia could possibly do would be to invade. It might start out well for them, but in the modern reality of hyper Nationalism, the result would be a nightmare and virtually guarantee Western encroachment right up to the border of Russia - with that border now minded by an implacable and utterly hostile foe. And that is the best case result from an invasion.

Doe people really think that trumped up propaganda about 'neo-nazis' is a good enough reason to get involved in a war? Good Luck.

Similar arguments were made in 1914 ... look how that turned out. More power to Russia and their supporters who have failed to learn their lessons.

Russia's hand is being forced with the killing of the Russian speaking people of the Ukraine who don't want the US and Nato. If Russia does nothing then that's what they are going to get because it's pretty obvious now that is the US/Nato intention.

It's time to make a stand. And it's not as if the rhetoric on the other side isn't saying the same thing. I see it as better that Russia makes the stand in the Eastern Ukraine rather than from within their own borders. Nuclear war? No, because the US/Nato doesn't play that kind of game. The game is steady encroachment upon Russia.

Ukraine's Hand is being forces by Russian agents taking over its political institutions in the East.

The idea that Russia is being forced here is erroneous in the extreme.

And if they are 'forced' by their own excuses into an invasion of a country the size of Ukraine with only 40,000 Soldiers? Well, Afghanistan and Iraq were a giant sucking sound, as was Chechnya.

You aren't even Russian Monty, why on earth would you be gang busters about starting a war that Russia, in the long run not only cannot win, but would bring Russia's enemies right onto its borders?

We were provoked is hardly a good reason to do something materially stupid in light of your own national interests.

If Russia want to go in, let them. All the Eastern Members of NATO will flood Ukraine with weapons, Europe will turn to alternate sources of gas, Chechnya will again explode, Central Asian countries will bypass Russia and install alternate pipe lines and Ukraine will suck the soul out of Russia.

Heh, we were provoked by what our own commandos were instigating see!

Therefore we initiated our own collapse and economic malaise. Smart, eh?
monty1
Posts: 1,084
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/4/2014 12:16:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
neutral, As I suggested in my last post, Nato is going to be directly on Russia's borders if Russia doesn't act to save the Russian speaking pro-Russian people. Better for Russia if it stops the encroachment in the Ukraine. I think it would be a wise place to make the stand as there's little doubt that region of Ukraine is favouring Russia.

We see the situation in different ways. You see it as Russian expansionist actions and I see it as US/Nato expansion and encroachment upon Russia.

In my opinion, and also in the opinion of many American political analysts, the US expansionist policies began with the fall of the Soviet Union and subsequently the first war against Iraq. The other equalizing power had become powerless to prevent it. But it most likely stops right about now because Russia is ready to reassert itself in a downscaled and modified way. Russia will protect it's borders and we won't see another Kosovo.

The US/Nato thinks otherwise.

It's playing out in political support for either the US/Nato or Russia and it will continue to do so. Russia fully understands the implications of losing the moral high ground by moving to protect pro-Russian Ukrainians. I think the US/Nato also understands that it's moral high ground is on a shaky footing at the moment if Russia doesn't act. But it also knows it fulfills it's mission for the most part if Russia doesn't act.

A more interesting aspect of the situation is that the Ukraine is most likely more pro-Russian than it is pro-US/Nato.
Zylorarchy
Posts: 209
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/4/2014 12:35:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Russia has damaged Ukraine enough. And Ukraine is not largely in favour of Russia, as the whole unrest started with the previous Ukrainian government favouring closer tides with Russia, over the European Union.

Although the Crimea Referendum was, in my opinion, actually the right course of action. Russia should not initiate a war to protect Pro-Russians who illegally try to take the country for themselves.
"I am not intolerant of religion, I am intolerant of intolerance"
"True freedom is not simply left or right. It is the ability to know when a law is needed, but more importantly, know when one is not"
monty1
Posts: 1,084
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/4/2014 12:53:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 12:35:26 PM, Zylorarchy wrote:
Russia has damaged Ukraine enough. And Ukraine is not largely in favour of Russia, as the whole unrest started with the previous Ukrainian government favouring closer tides with Russia, over the European Union.

Although the Crimea Referendum was, in my opinion, actually the right course of action. Russia should not initiate a war to protect Pro-Russians who illegally try to take the country for themselves.

Yes, it's quite simple to understand. An upstart political movement over threw the Yanukovich government. The US/Nato is supporting that coup. It largely took place in a part of Ukraine that appeared to be pro-US/Nato, and anti-Russia.

That's where the illegality began of course and that's really not debatable. Any duly elected government must be displaced by free and fair elections.

I would suggest that if the US/Nato saw the possibility of installing a US/Nato favourable government in the Ukraine then an election would have been the means to do so. That could not be contested by Russia in a credible way.

We can take sides but neither of us can just proclaim that our side is right and maintain our credibility. Remember that!

Russia took the Crimea in a bloodless referendum. Fact!
The Crimea was overwhelmingly in favour of being pro-Russia. Fact!

Was Russia's move to take the Crimea by referendum an illegal action?
Was Russia's taking of Crimea necessary for Russia due to it's strategic position and it's military installments there? This latter is room to debate. Not the former in regard to the illegal coup.
monty1
Posts: 1,084
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/4/2014 12:57:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I should have also said that it's being implied that the Ukraine would have been favourable to Russia in a free and fair election in which the Crimea was included. What will be the Ukraine's choice if a free and fair election is allowed to take place.

Is Russia holding back from taking military action in order to wait for that to happen?
Is Russia's hand going to be forced before that election can take place?
Is the US/Nato plan to force Russia's hand before that election?
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/4/2014 4:05:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 11:50:20 AM, neutral wrote:
At 5/4/2014 11:24:04 AM, monty1 wrote:
At 5/4/2014 3:17:37 AM, neutral wrote:
At 5/4/2014 2:34:21 AM, Bemouh wrote:
At 5/4/2014 2:28:07 AM, Kc1999 wrote:
At 5/4/2014 2:14:07 AM, Bemouh wrote:
At 5/2/2014 1:21:49 PM, monty1 wrote:
To save the pro-Russian Ukrainians who are being slaughtered by the illegal Ukraine installed regime. And Russia is within it's legal right to act because it has been requested by Yanukovich who is the Ukraine's lawfully elected leader.

I totally agree, I do believe after the escalations of the past days, it's not long anymore before Russia will step in and act against the crimes comitted by the coup-imposed regime in Kiev.

Glory to Crimean Russia!

Crimea was never Ukranian to start with, and will never be! :D

Russians sadle their horses slow, but once they ride, they ride fast.
Amen to that.

Does anyone in this thread, so eager for war, actually understand what they are asking Russia to do?

Ukraine is about half a million square miles. How far exactly do you think 40,000 Soldiers are going to get? Can they shoot their way in? Yep. And then what?

What happened when we shot our way into Baghdad? That is when thermal war started correct? What happened when Russia attacked a much smaller Nation that Ukraine? Shot their way into Grozny, Chechnya? You think there is no one there who is mindful of this? You think Afghanistan has faded from Russian memory? That they are unaware of the Cossack traditions of Ukraine?

In comparison, to control Iraq, at the height of the War, we had 200,000 Soldiers on the ground, while the Iraqis fielded 6-700,000 Soldiers, and an additional 6-700,000 police (not to mention thousands of more local militias like the Suna Awakening), that took almost a 2 million Soldiers to control a situation in a country smaller, more arid (less places to hide), and with fewer people.

Does anyone seriously think that a Russian invasion would not immediately result in, at the very least, the former East block members of NATO actively supplying any insurgent force in Ukraine?

Russia last ill thought out venture into Afghanistan, soaking to with billions of dollars in expenses it could ill afford, caused its collapse.

The stupidest thing Russia could possibly do would be to invade. It might start out well for them, but in the modern reality of hyper Nationalism, the result would be a nightmare and virtually guarantee Western encroachment right up to the border of Russia - with that border now minded by an implacable and utterly hostile foe. And that is the best case result from an invasion.

Doe people really think that trumped up propaganda about 'neo-nazis' is a good enough reason to get involved in a war? Good Luck.

Similar arguments were made in 1914 ... look how that turned out. More power to Russia and their supporters who have failed to learn their lessons.

Russia's hand is being forced with the killing of the Russian speaking people of the Ukraine who don't want the US and Nato. If Russia does nothing then that's what they are going to get because it's pretty obvious now that is the US/Nato intention.

It's time to make a stand. And it's not as if the rhetoric on the other side isn't saying the same thing. I see it as better that Russia makes the stand in the Eastern Ukraine rather than from within their own borders. Nuclear war? No, because the US/Nato doesn't play that kind of game. The game is steady encroachment upon Russia.

Ukraine's Hand is being forces by Russian agents taking over its political institutions in the East.

The idea that Russia is being forced here is erroneous in the extreme.

And if they are 'forced' by their own excuses into an invasion of a country the size of Ukraine with only 40,000 Soldiers? Well, Afghanistan and Iraq were a giant sucking sound, as was Chechnya.

You aren't even Russian Monty, why on earth would you be gang busters about starting a war that Russia, in the long run not only cannot win, but would bring Russia's enemies right onto its borders?

We were provoked is hardly a good reason to do something materially stupid in light of your own national interests.

If Russia want to go in, let them. All the Eastern Members of NATO will flood Ukraine with weapons, Europe will turn to alternate sources of gas, Chechnya will again explode, Central Asian countries will bypass Russia and install alternate pipe lines and Ukraine will suck the soul out of Russia.

Heh, we were provoked by what our own commandos were instigating see!

Therefore we initiated our own collapse and economic malaise. Smart, eh?

Comment of the Year!!! Give this man a medal, for summing up everything I've been saying for three months.
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
Bemouh
Posts: 19
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/4/2014 4:22:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 3:17:37 AM, neutral wrote:
At 5/4/2014 2:34:21 AM, Bemouh wrote:
At 5/4/2014 2:28:07 AM, Kc1999 wrote:
At 5/4/2014 2:14:07 AM, Bemouh wrote:
At 5/2/2014 1:21:49 PM, monty1 wrote:
To save the pro-Russian Ukrainians who are being slaughtered by the illegal Ukraine installed regime. And Russia is within it's legal right to act because it has been requested by Yanukovich who is the Ukraine's lawfully elected leader.

I totally agree, I do believe after the escalations of the past days, it's not long anymore before Russia will step in and act against the crimes comitted by the coup-imposed regime in Kiev.

Glory to Crimean Russia!

Crimea was never Ukranian to start with, and will never be! :D

Russians sadle their horses slow, but once they ride, they ride fast.
Amen to that.

Does anyone in this thread, so eager for war, actually understand what they are asking Russia to do?

Ukraine is about half a million square miles. How far exactly do you think 40,000 Soldiers are going to get? Can they shoot their way in? Yep. And then what?

What happened when we shot our way into Baghdad? That is when thermal war started correct? What happened when Russia attacked a much smaller Nation that Ukraine? Shot their way into Grozny, Chechnya? You think there is no one there who is mindful of this? You think Afghanistan has faded from Russian memory? That they are unaware of the Cossack traditions of Ukraine?

In comparison, to control Iraq, at the height of the War, we had 200,000 Soldiers on the ground, while the Iraqis fielded 6-700,000 Soldiers, and an additional 6-700,000 police (not to mention thousands of more local militias like the Suna Awakening), that took almost a 2 million Soldiers to control a situation in a country smaller, more arid (less places to hide), and with fewer people.

Does anyone seriously think that a Russian invasion would not immediately result in, at the very least, the former East block members of NATO actively supplying any insurgent force in Ukraine?

Russia last ill thought out venture into Afghanistan, soaking to with billions of dollars in expenses it could ill afford, caused its collapse.

The stupidest thing Russia could possibly do would be to invade. It might start out well for them, but in the modern reality of hyper Nationalism, the result would be a nightmare and virtually guarantee Western encroachment right up to the border of Russia - with that border now minded by an implacable and utterly hostile foe. And that is the best case result from an invasion.

Doe people really think that trumped up propaganda about 'neo-nazis' is a good enough reason to get involved in a war? Good Luck.

Similar arguments were made in 1914 ... look how that turned out. More power to Russia and their supporters who have failed to learn their lessons.

Neutral, thanks for your input on this delicate subject, let me present my rebuttal. First of all, I am not eager for war, war is a terrible thing, but sometimes a necessary step to take in order to restore the peace or order in a region, especially one filled with armed insurgency.

Half a square million miles or not, we have to take in account that winning a battle or war isn't all about the size of the battlefield in question, but mostly about the geographical layout of the battlefield itself, because when you know your terrain, you know which strategics and tactics work best in this area.

Personally, I don't think we can compare this situation to the Afghanistan or Iraq war, even though the insurgents are called "terrorists" by the coup-imposed government in Kiev, doesn't mean that they actually are terrorists. Knowing Russia, they don't have to shoot their way in, the (south)eastern part of Ukraine is still in favor of officially elected President Yanukovich and Russia orientated, I don't believe that in the condition of the current escalations Russia would have to shoot until the right-winged Kiev-hired right sector nationalists would open fire on them, as a perfectly natural response Russia would be in their own right to act and defend against this. Chechnya was a total different story, by this time, the armed forces of the Russian Federation weren't reorganized yet, there were a lot of miscommunications and orders that got lost in the oblivion.

To control Iraq, there was a high number of operators and soldiers needed indeed, but why? They didn't have the support of the people, look at Iraq now, and look at what was before the Iraq war, Iraq was better off with Saddam Hussein, the United States leaves a trail of destroyed countries behind, in name of "democracy", look at Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan.. all these countries are worse now, than they were before the wars started. In Ukraine, this isn't the case, Russia has support of a big part of the citizens living in (South-)Eastern Ukraine, and was actually asked to step in, as Putin has states before, he will use military intervention as a last resort, but didn't say he wouldn't. The part where he has the support of the citizens is a big pro for this possibly coming intervention.

Sir, 40,000 Russian troops you say? Acquired intelligence shows that the following Russian forces are moving into it's designated battlestations and locations, we have at this moment, the 2nd Spetsnaz Brigade moving to Novozybkov and a detachment of the 2nd Brigade joining forces with the 39th Mortar Brigade in Lgov, the 106th Airborne Division to Novozybkov, 2nd Mechanized Division to Lgov, 4th armored Division to Lgov, 9th Motor Rifle Brigade to Lgov, 76th Airborne Division to Belgorod, 106th Airborne Division detachment to Belgorod, 27th Motor Rifle Regiment to Belgorod, 16th Spetsnaz Brigade to Belgorod, 23rd Motor Rifle Brigade to Belgorod, 15th Motor Rifle Brigade to Belgorod, 56th Air Assault Brigade moving to Luhansk border, 20th Motorized Brigade moving to Luhansk border, 10th Spetsnaz Brigade moving to Luhansk border, 34th Motorized Brigade rendezvous with 33rd Recon Brigade in Sochi Oblast near the Black Sea, 205th Motor Rifle Brigade moving to Rostov near Donetsk border, 45th Spetsnaz Airborne Regiment moving from Moscow to rendezvous with 22nd Spetsnaz Brigade in Rostov near Donetsk border, 106th Airborne division detachment moving from Belgorod to Rostov near Donetsk border, 15th Motor Rifle Brigade detachment moving to Crimean border with Ukraine, 3rd Spetsnaz Regiment + 31st Air Assault Brigade + 18th Motor Rifle Brigade from Chechnya forces moving to 810th Marines Brigade on Crimea as reinforcements.

These forces are a force bigger than just 40,000 soldiers, it's a mobilization, and in fact, Russia has the favor of this conflict, even if NATO would respond, which I highly doubt, if Russia were to conduct a draft for the military, they would overpower the NATO forces more than they already do at this moment.

Speaking about the NATO, a few of the former Soviet nations that are currently NATO-members, know how bad this can get, and I don't believe them to stay in favor of Ukraine when Russia decides to march in. They know what Russia is capable off, and they will step out of this fight, besides that Russian politics might offer these former Soviets a deal which brings them in a good spot, joining Russian forces and strength, in the end, they are still former Soviets, right? NATO, isn't it obvious how the NATO decided to place all its military power OUTSIDE and AROUND Ukraine? Not in.. not in Ukraine, no, that would be too much of a statement they don't want to make, why? They fear Russia, and we all know it. They are protecting the NATO member states, not Ukraine, trust me on this my friend Neutral, as soon as Russia marches into Ukraine to help out the people that ask Putin for this help, Ukraine is on its own, and not even the CIA, FBI or Blackwater
Nulles Evadit - Cross Corps
neutral
Posts: 4,478
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/5/2014 9:31:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 4:22:10 PM, Bemouh wrote:

Neutral, thanks for your input on this delicate subject, let me present my rebuttal. First of all, I am not eager for war, war is a terrible thing, but sometimes a necessary step to take in order to restore the peace or order in a region, especially one filled with armed insurgency.

Half a square million miles or not, we have to take in account that winning a battle or war isn't all about the size of the ba

[reduced size for space]

all its military power OUTSIDE and AROUND Ukraine? Not in.. not in Ukraine, no, that would be too much of a statement they don't want to make, why? They fear Russia, and we all know it. They are protecting the NATO member states, not Ukraine, trust me on this my friend Neutral, as soon as Russia marches into Ukraine to help out the people that

Its good to see some analysis that is at least thought out, but I have to ask you what you basis is for thinking war here could possibly be successful with only 40,000 Soldiers? What you write about task to troops seems feasible until you actually look at the size of the unit to the size of the task. the size of the border, in some cases is as long as 1,500 MILES. The size of a Russian Brigade is from 3-5000 Soldiers with many of them assigned to artillery and logistics positions. Can a single brigade control a border that large? The answer is no. Not even remotely.

Second, the Russians have the support of SOME of the local populations. The areas outside Crimea are about 50/50 - and the Ukrainians have something of a history of resistance. Contrary to popular belief, the USA has the support of a great deal of the local population in Iraq. I know because I worked very closely with the Iraqis during my tour there. Even with HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Iraqis willing to pick up arms and follow us - the thing that nearly ripped apart our entire effort was the Suna/Shia rift. What do you think the Ukarine/Russian Nationalistic rift will look like? And how can 1/5 as many Soldiers, with a dearth of hundreds of billions of rubles to spend be expected to control a country BIGGER than Iraq?

The parity of troops would leave vast tracts of Ukraine unoccupied. Rebel forces/Ukrainian Nationalists would be able to establish safe havens with the borders of Ukraine, at best, the Russians would be able to disrupt. Inevitable, with the proliferation of asymmetric warfare, IEDs, etc, the Russians would - just as we did - very quickly shoot themselves into an incredibly difficult situation.

Lets also bear in mind that Russia has a history in that region, and its former colonies in in Eastern Europe well remember their treatment - and would have no interest in seeing Russian military success. What would prevent those governments from flooding Ukraine with weapons? One Brigade on a 1500 mile border? In Comparison, the US has a 1,900 mile long border with 21,000 border agents alone ... and we cannot stop the flow of drugs, weapons, and immigrants. They cannot do that without having to dodge IED's and ambushes. Russian paratroopers, trained for direct combat, are, just like US paratroopers, particularly ill equipped to handle the realities of trans national smuggling - lines of access that already clearly exist in Ukraine.

Just bear in mind, we beat Iraq in 100 hours the first time. We shot our way into Baghdad at breath taking speed. Iraq feared us greatly. The real fight began after we shot our way in. The vast majority of our casualties and expenses came AFTER the invasion.

Russia is not stupid, I have worked with their officers in the past, and they understand, perhaps better than any others, that using the military as a political wedge to drive influence is one thing ... but actually shooting themselves into Ukraine would galvanize the Ukrainians and would lead only to a blood bath. A blood bath that, were Russia to pursue it to the bitter end, would drain Russia's already dry coffers and could quite literally lead to yet another devastating economic collapse for the country.

Clausewitz is quite clear, war is a battle of wills, and thinking your enemy fears you to much to fight you is a great way to step unwittingly into a real contest of wills. Russia can shoot itself into Ukraine, doing so would be the dumbest thing it has ever done.
monty1
Posts: 1,084
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/5/2014 11:25:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Russia doesn't want to march into the Ukraine, it wants to protect the will of the people against an illegal and tyrant government. The US/Nato has a real problem in that the people will take care of the situation themselves in the Eastern Ukraine if given a chance to exercise their rights.

It must be made to look like Russia is interfering but that is wearing really thin now. See my new thread on Ron Paul's comments because he's got it all pretty much right.
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/5/2014 2:01:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/5/2014 11:25:28 AM, monty1 wrote:
Russia doesn't want to march into the Ukraine, it wants to protect the will of the people against an illegal and tyrant government. The US/Nato has a real problem in that the people will take care of the situation themselves in the Eastern Ukraine if given a chance to exercise their rights.

It must be made to look like Russia is interfering but that is wearing really thin now. See my new thread on Ron Paul's comments because he's got it all pretty much right.

Lol, more Bull$hit as usual. You accuse Americans of watching propaganda....
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
Bemouh
Posts: 19
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/5/2014 5:37:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/5/2014 9:31:37 AM, neutral wrote:
all its military power OUTSIDE and AROUND Ukraine? Not in.. not in Ukraine, no, that would be too much of a statement they don't want to make, why? They fear Russia, and we all know it. They are protecting the NATO member states, not Ukraine, trust me on this my friend Neutral, as soon as Russia marches into Ukraine to help out the people that

Its good to see some analysis that is at least thought out, but I have to ask you what you basis is for thinking war here could possibly be successful with only 40,000 Soldiers? What you write about task to troops seems feasible until you actually look at the size of the unit to the size of the task. the size of the border, in some cases is as long as 1,500 MILES. The size of a Russian Brigade is from 3-5000 Soldiers with many of them assigned to artillery and logistics positions. Can a single brigade control a border that large? The answer is no. Not even remotely.


Well indeed, I believe an analysis isn't a analysis before it has been thought out, having said that, I took my time to look at some military maps and went to search for references to your given input. I have summed up all Russian military groups that are moving at this moment and I came to the final count of 18 brigades, 7 divisions and 3 regiments of the Russian armed forces. As you said indeed, the average size of a brigade varies from 3000 to 5000 soldiers, so lets take a safe guess and make it 4000 for the statistics, that makes 18 x 4000 = 72.000, (Note, just the brigades already overrule the 40.000 dispatch), let's take a look at the divisions now, a normal division in wartime varies mostly from 10.000 to 15.000 soldiers, considering it's Russia we're talking about now, lets deduct this number to a safe 8000, 7 x 8000 = 56.000, last but not least, the regiments, a regiment is overall the same size as a brigade, so let again take 4000 to play it safe, 3 x 4000 = 12.000, which brings us on a total of, 72.000 + 56.000 + 12.000 = 140.000, this is 100.000 more troops than estimated by the media. I'm not saying you didn't get your facts straight, but may I ask where you got the idea that it was just 40.000 troops?

Now, as you asked, I will give you my answer. What is my basis for thinking war here could possibly successful with 'only 40,000 Soldiers?' First of all, let me express my thoughts in more detail, I don't believe this would start off with a war, but I do believe that sooner or later, the Russian Federation will start to intervene in Eastern Ukraine, the reaction on this however, could spark a war. As I have stated in my earlier reply, the NATO military buildup is solely outside Ukraine, rather bordering Ukraine, as the NATO also has stated, the buildup of forces is purely to safeguard the protection of NATO's counterparts as the Balkan region and the Baltic states, (Note the U.S. Airborne Troops and international fighter squadrons in Poland, Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia) after the arrival of these troops, is was stated again that these military formations were solely for the protection of the NATO member states and military-drills to show off this so called "military muscle"

It is the same reason why the European Union isn't going to grant Ukraine membership in the EU, they have too much to lose from Russia. Which I elaborated in the following topic, you might want to check this out, to see it from the European perspective: https://www.debate.org...

The pro-Russian population in Ukraine is indeed widely spread, but in Eastern-Ukraine, mainly the regions Donetsk and Luhansk are superior in the pro-Russian population, statistics show, 10.000 pro-Russians per 1.000 pro-Ukrainians in Luhansk and 10.000 pro-Russians per 5.000 pro-Ukrainians in Donetsk and 5.000 pro-Russians per 1.000 pro-Ukrainians in Mariupol. We haven't locked on the precise statistics for Slavyansk and Kramatorsk, but the estimated count is 10.000 pro-Russians per 1.000 pro-Ukrainians. Considering the fast majority for pro-Russians in the major Eastern-Ukrainian regions, which is still growing in number as we speak, considering the armed operation of the Ukrainian armed forces in the Eastern-Ukrainian region, the pro-Russian self-defense forces are shooing away the pro-Ukrainians from the regions. At this point the Russian armed forces wouldn't have to shoot their way in anymore, they would have a free way into Ukraine via Luhansk and Donetsk, the only thing they would have to do is bound it's borders creating a military grade checkpoint system and border WITHIN Ukraine, bordering the regions that are considered pro-Russian.

As you said, Russians aren't stupid. When Putin first came to power as elected president, he immediately replaced the already existing government with his own comrades, former KGB officials, buddies from his old soviet times and party members. We all know that Putin is a former KGB operator and former director of the FSB, knowing this we might be able to say that Putin already had a operational plan and strategy for this scenario as the Ukrainian revolution began. I believe I am able to say that at this moment all the Russian forces are just patiently waiting at the Ukrainian border until Putin thinks there is enough pro-Russian support in the Eastern regions to march in with few hostility and big support. We also have to take in mind that the Russian armed forces has a special division of political officers specialized in political warfare and diplomatic/foreign liaison. I dare to say that this division is widely engaged in this conflict in advising the Russian armed forces and Parliament on how to wash this lil' piggy.

If we talk about the U.S. border and Iraq, I do think we talk way different subjects. The U.S. border is mainly thrown up to battle illegal immigration and drug trafficking. This mainly goes about the ongoing dispute with Mexico about this border, when we speak about the Ukrainian-Russian conflict, we talk about a intervention, this doesn't include the whole border, but specifically the borders of the regions in question with the highest rate of pro-Russian activists and protesters. The Iraq conflict was one big mess, stayed too long, made too big of a mess, but this was actually a full size war, not an intervention, you have to keep that in mind. The majority of the population in Eastern-Ukraine are actually asking Putin for a military intervention.

Russia has indeed a history in the region of Eastern-Europe and the Balkan, countries like Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia and Romania aren't happy with the current escalations and Russian military movements, but if we look at Moldova, Georgia, Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan totally support Russia in its movements and actually are sending their own reinforcements to the borders of Ukraine and Black Sea as well. The Russian enclave of Kaliningrad also houses a few Russian divisions, bordering Lithuania and Armenia relies on Russian military support as well, of course as predicted and totally expected, Belarus is in favor of Russia. So, Russia wouldn't suffer too much from a certain military intervention in the Ukraine. Might it happen that Russia does lose it's support from the NATO (already did and considered an enemy) and the EU, then it will still remain a dominating power in its alliances with Pakistan, India and Iran. Not to forget the political and material cooperation with North Korea. Although not said out loud, the backroom politics say that China is in favor of Russia too in this conflict and back them up against any taken sanctions, as stated by the Chinese foreign minister.

Try to see it in this way, Russia's geopolitics are way too advanced to make a mistake, but that also means that it knows how to handle this situation, and how to deal with the border problem.
Nulles Evadit - Cross Corps
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/5/2014 7:10:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/4/2014 2:28:07 AM, Kc1999 wrote:
At 5/4/2014 2:14:07 AM, Bemouh wrote:
At 5/2/2014 1:21:49 PM, monty1 wrote:
To save the pro-Russian Ukrainians who are being slaughtered by the illegal Ukraine installed regime. And Russia is within it's legal right to act because it has been requested by Yanukovich who is the Ukraine's lawfully elected leader.

I totally agree, I do believe after the escalations of the past days, it's not long anymore before Russia will step in and act against the crimes comitted by the coup-imposed regime in Kiev.

Glory to Crimean Russia!

Crimea was never Ukranian to start with, and will never be! :D

Course not, it was the site of a Russian genocide against Crimeans.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/5/2014 7:13:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
we look at Moldova, Georgia, Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan totally support Russia in its movements

Georgia

Georgia.

support Russia

WAT.
Splain yosself.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/5/2014 7:33:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/5/2014 7:13:06 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
we look at Moldova, Georgia, Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan totally support Russia in its movements

Georgia

Georgia.

support Russia

WAT.
Splain yosself.

Moldova doesn't either. I'm not sure if Monty blatantly lied about this, but both of these countries are anti-russian, and have illegal occupations in their countries. Both are looking to ascend to NATO, BECAUSE OF RUSSIA
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
PotBelliedGeek
Posts: 4,298
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/5/2014 7:36:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/5/2014 7:33:38 PM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 5/5/2014 7:13:06 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
we look at Moldova, Georgia, Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan totally support Russia in its movements

Georgia

Georgia.

support Russia

WAT.
Splain yosself.

Moldova doesn't either. I'm not sure if Monty blatantly lied about this, but both of these countries are anti-russian, and have illegal occupations in their countries. Both are looking to ascend to NATO, BECAUSE OF RUSSIA

come to mafia.
Religion Forum Ambassador

HUFFLEPUFF FOR LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!