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Odessa massacre.

ararmer1919
Posts: 362
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5/3/2014 10:45:41 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Will this be the tipping point that finally gives Putin the opportunity to invade Eastern Ukraine? Is this, as the article says, proof that Ukraine can no longer protect its citizens?

And for the more extreme folks here, could this be some sort of conspiracy? Fingers have been pointed at both sides for secretly being behind this incident. (For the record the US intelligence had made the prediction that Russia would stage something like this in Odessa over a month ago, similar to the apartment bombings on Moscow that helped secure favor for Russias invasion and conquest of Georgia several years ago.

http://rt.com...
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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5/3/2014 11:27:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/3/2014 10:45:41 AM, ararmer1919 wrote:
Will this be the tipping point that finally gives Putin the opportunity to invade Eastern Ukraine? Is this, as the article says, proof that Ukraine can no longer protect its citizens?

And for the more extreme folks here, could this be some sort of conspiracy? Fingers have been pointed at both sides for secretly being behind this incident. (For the record the US intelligence had made the prediction that Russia would stage something like this in Odessa over a month ago, similar to the apartment bombings on Moscow that helped secure favor for Russias invasion and conquest of Georgia several years ago.


http://rt.com...

We can look at some facts and then some possibilities:

First fact is that either side would have been morally right in taking the Ukraine by free and fair elections.

The present government exists illegally.

Yanukovich was and is the elected leader of the Ukraine.

And there is a real possibility that the slaughter of Russia favouring Ukrainians will go on until Putin's hand is forced. It's possible that he wants to wait until it's too very obvious that he would be acting to save the people. However, it's also possible that he won't act and will wait until after the upcoming elections. He may be confident that the people will choose to be on the side of Russia.

But if Putin acts to save the people from the Ukriane's illegal terrorist government then it's also possible that the US/Nato would see the Ukraine as the dispensable pawn in the game in order to set the propaganda stage against Russia in the eyes of the world. At the moment the EU is watching and is not yet being cooperative toward the US/Nato. It needs to win over Germany's support.
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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5/3/2014 11:32:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
http://rt.com...

I've brought myself up to date on the Odessa killings and it seems that it's a stretch too far to attempt to say that this was done by those loyal to Russia. But I would be interested in hearing US/Nato claims that it was?
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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5/3/2014 11:41:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/3/2014 10:45:41 AM, ararmer1919 wrote:
Will this be the tipping point that finally gives Putin the opportunity to invade Eastern Ukraine? Is this, as the article says, proof that Ukraine can no longer protect its citizens?

And for the more extreme folks here, could this be some sort of conspiracy? Fingers have been pointed at both sides for secretly being behind this incident. (For the record the US intelligence had made the prediction that Russia would stage something like this in Odessa over a month ago, similar to the apartment bombings on Moscow that helped secure favor for Russias invasion and conquest of Georgia several years ago.


http://rt.com...

Yiou made the mistake of using RT as a source. Also, its not just the US who has identified Russian miscontent. The Turks as well
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Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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5/3/2014 11:45:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/3/2014 10:45:41 AM, ararmer1919 wrote:
Will this be the tipping point that finally gives Putin the opportunity to invade Eastern Ukraine? Is this, as the article says, proof that Ukraine can no longer protect its citizens?

And for the more extreme folks here, could this be some sort of conspiracy? Fingers have been pointed at both sides for secretly being behind this incident. (For the record the US intelligence had made the prediction that Russia would stage something like this in Odessa over a month ago, similar to the apartment bombings on Moscow that helped secure favor for Russias invasion and conquest of Georgia several years ago.


http://rt.com...

Yeah, further research reveals its not a massacre.The people attacked were rebels, and had been warned several times prior. A more reliable source....

http://www.express.co.uk...
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monty1
Posts: 1,084
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5/3/2014 11:50:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/3/2014 11:41:52 AM, Jifpop09 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 10:45:41 AM, ararmer1919 wrote:
Will this be the tipping point that finally gives Putin the opportunity to invade Eastern Ukraine? Is this, as the article says, proof that Ukraine can no longer protect its citizens?

And for the more extreme folks here, could this be some sort of conspiracy? Fingers have been pointed at both sides for secretly being behind this incident. (For the record the US intelligence had made the prediction that Russia would stage something like this in Odessa over a month ago, similar to the apartment bombings on Moscow that helped secure favor for Russias invasion and conquest of Georgia several years ago.


http://rt.com...

Yiou made the mistake of using RT as a source. Also, its not just the US who has identified Russian miscontent. The Turks as well

And I've also sourced Huffpost to find out whether the US/Nato are making the claim that pro-Russians are responsible for the fires that killed so many pro-Russians. They aren't and I think it's because they understand that it would be a stretch too far.

They will and are claiming that it was due to Russian provoked violence but that doesn't meet the equivalence of the Georgia incident as was being suggested by the OP.

And so, there's no issue to bemoan the referencing of RT and it's story line.
ararmer1919
Posts: 362
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5/3/2014 12:01:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/3/2014 11:32:40 AM, monty1 wrote:
http://rt.com...

I've brought myself up to date on the Odessa killings and it seems that it's a stretch too far to attempt to say that this was done by those loyal to Russia. But I would be interested in hearing US/Nato claims that it was?

Oh I wasn't saying that either sides governments or media are saying that. I only asked that (more out of the desire for amusement rather then serious dialogue) based off of scanning the comment sections of various news groups websites, including RT. There is a concerning number of people from both sides who seem to think that this was a false flag attack much like the Nazi Reichstag fire. Pro Russians blaming the CIA and what not.
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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5/3/2014 12:06:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/3/2014 12:01:25 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 11:32:40 AM, monty1 wrote:
http://rt.com...

I've brought myself up to date on the Odessa killings and it seems that it's a stretch too far to attempt to say that this was done by those loyal to Russia. But I would be interested in hearing US/Nato claims that it was?

Oh I wasn't saying that either sides governments or media are saying that. I only asked that (more out of the desire for amusement rather then serious dialogue) based off of scanning the comment sections of various news groups websites, including RT. There is a concerning number of people from both sides who seem to think that this was a false flag attack much like the Nazi Reichstag fire. Pro Russians blaming the CIA and what not.

What's the point of making the assertion of it being a false flag incident similar to Georgia and then reversing yourself on it?

I think you've already been sidelined in this thread and so I'll hope that your friend jifpop understands what's just happened. It could be the last test of his credibility I'm going to offer him.
ararmer1919
Posts: 362
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5/3/2014 12:07:03 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/3/2014 11:27:07 AM, monty1 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 10:45:41 AM, ararmer1919 wrote:
Will this be the tipping point that finally gives Putin the opportunity to invade Eastern Ukraine? Is this, as the article says, proof that Ukraine can no longer protect its citizens?

And for the more extreme folks here, could this be some sort of conspiracy? Fingers have been pointed at both sides for secretly being behind this incident. (For the record the US intelligence had made the prediction that Russia would stage something like this in Odessa over a month ago, similar to the apartment bombings on Moscow that helped secure favor for Russias invasion and conquest of Georgia several years ago.


http://rt.com...

We can look at some facts and then some possibilities:

First fact is that either side would have been morally right in taking the Ukraine by free and fair elections.

The present government exists illegally.

Yanukovich was and is the elected leader of the Ukraine.

Do you think Yanukovich should be returned to power?

And there is a real possibility that the slaughter of Russia favouring Ukrainians will go on until Putin's hand is forced. It's possible that he wants to wait until it's too very obvious that he would be acting to save the people. However, it's also possible that he won't act and will wait until after the upcoming elections. He may be confident that the people will choose to be on the side of Russia.

Do you believe civilian deaths would end if Russia was to intervene?

But if Putin acts to save the people from the Ukriane's illegal terrorist government then it's also possible that the US/Nato would see the Ukraine as the dispensable pawn in the game in order to set the propaganda stage against Russia in the eyes of the world. At the moment the EU is watching and is not yet being cooperative toward the US/Nato. It needs to win over Germany's support.

I disagree. The EU has been more then willing to back the Ukraine, and even has taken personal initiative to put pressure on Russia to deescalate the tension. The sanctions the EU put out a few days ago. And many of the members of the EU really don't want to see a stronger Russia on their borders. The only thing that has kept them from acting in a more aggressive way is their dependency on Russian natural gas, which in a few years may not be a factor any longer.
ararmer1919
Posts: 362
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5/3/2014 12:09:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/3/2014 12:06:42 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 12:01:25 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 11:32:40 AM, monty1 wrote:
http://rt.com...

I've brought myself up to date on the Odessa killings and it seems that it's a stretch too far to attempt to say that this was done by those loyal to Russia. But I would be interested in hearing US/Nato claims that it was?

Oh I wasn't saying that either sides governments or media are saying that. I only asked that (more out of the desire for amusement rather then serious dialogue) based off of scanning the comment sections of various news groups websites, including RT. There is a concerning number of people from both sides who seem to think that this was a false flag attack much like the Nazi Reichstag fire. Pro Russians blaming the CIA and what not.

What's the point of making the assertion of it being a false flag incident similar to Georgia and then reversing yourself on it?

I think you've already been sidelined in this thread and so I'll hope that your friend jifpop understands what's just happened. It could be the last test of his credibility I'm going to offer him.

Your missing the point lol. It was a gag. I wanted to see if I could get any crazy conspiracy guys ranting on here. Honestly I figured you would. I knew you would be the first person to comment here.
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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5/3/2014 12:18:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/3/2014 12:07:03 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 11:27:07 AM, monty1 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 10:45:41 AM, ararmer1919 wrote:
Will this be the tipping point that finally gives Putin the opportunity to invade Eastern Ukraine? Is this, as the article says, proof that Ukraine can no longer protect its citizens?

And for the more extreme folks here, could this be some sort of conspiracy? Fingers have been pointed at both sides for secretly being behind this incident. (For the record the US intelligence had made the prediction that Russia would stage something like this in Odessa over a month ago, similar to the apartment bombings on Moscow that helped secure favor for Russias invasion and conquest of Georgia several years ago.


http://rt.com...

We can look at some facts and then some possibilities:

First fact is that either side would have been morally right in taking the Ukraine by free and fair elections.

The present government exists illegally.

Yanukovich was and is the elected leader of the Ukraine.

Do you think Yanukovich should be returned to power?

And there is a real possibility that the slaughter of Russia favouring Ukrainians will go on until Putin's hand is forced. It's possible that he wants to wait until it's too very obvious that he would be acting to save the people. However, it's also possible that he won't act and will wait until after the upcoming elections. He may be confident that the people will choose to be on the side of Russia.

Do you believe civilian deaths would end if Russia was to intervene?

But if Putin acts to save the people from the Ukriane's illegal terrorist government then it's also possible that the US/Nato would see the Ukraine as the dispensable pawn in the game in order to set the propaganda stage against Russia in the eyes of the world. At the moment the EU is watching and is not yet being cooperative toward the US/Nato. It needs to win over Germany's support.

I disagree. The EU has been more then willing to back the Ukraine, and even has taken personal initiative to put pressure on Russia to deescalate the tension. The sanctions the EU put out a few days ago. And many of the members of the EU really don't want to see a stronger Russia on their borders. The only thing that has kept them from acting in a more aggressive way is their dependency on Russian natural gas, which in a few years may not be a factor any longer.

Your disagreemen with me on the fact that Germany is not cooperating is again showing that you are wrong and are making statements off the top of your head without researching them first.

http://yougov.co.uk...

And that kind of behaviour of yours is getting too consistent to bother responding to anymore until you improve your behaviour.
ararmer1919
Posts: 362
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5/3/2014 3:37:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/3/2014 12:18:48 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 12:07:03 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 11:27:07 AM, monty1 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 10:45:41 AM, ararmer1919 wrote:
Will this be the tipping point that finally gives Putin the opportunity to invade Eastern Ukraine? Is this, as the article says, proof that Ukraine can no longer protect its citizens?

And for the more extreme folks here, could this be some sort of conspiracy? Fingers have been pointed at both sides for secretly being behind this incident. (For the record the US intelligence had made the prediction that Russia would stage something like this in Odessa over a month ago, similar to the apartment bombings on Moscow that helped secure favor for Russias invasion and conquest of Georgia several years ago.


http://rt.com...

We can look at some facts and then some possibilities:

First fact is that either side would have been morally right in taking the Ukraine by free and fair elections.

The present government exists illegally.

Yanukovich was and is the elected leader of the Ukraine.

Do you think Yanukovich should be returned to power?

And there is a real possibility that the slaughter of Russia favouring Ukrainians will go on until Putin's hand is forced. It's possible that he wants to wait until it's too very obvious that he would be acting to save the people. However, it's also possible that he won't act and will wait until after the upcoming elections. He may be confident that the people will choose to be on the side of Russia.

Do you believe civilian deaths would end if Russia was to intervene?

But if Putin acts to save the people from the Ukriane's illegal terrorist government then it's also possible that the US/Nato would see the Ukraine as the dispensable pawn in the game in order to set the propaganda stage against Russia in the eyes of the world. At the moment the EU is watching and is not yet being cooperative toward the US/Nato. It needs to win over Germany's support.

I disagree. The EU has been more then willing to back the Ukraine, and even has taken personal initiative to put pressure on Russia to deescalate the tension. The sanctions the EU put out a few days ago. And many of the members of the EU really don't want to see a stronger Russia on their borders. The only thing that has kept them from acting in a more aggressive way is their dependency on Russian natural gas, which in a few years may not be a factor any longer.

Your disagreemen with me on the fact that Germany is not cooperating is again showing that you are wrong and are making statements off the top of your head without researching them first.

http://yougov.co.uk...

And that kind of behaviour of yours is getting too consistent to bother responding to anymore until you improve your behaviour.

Ok. Let's get this straightened out. You are not wrong. But neither am I. Were just not on the same page here. Sure. It looks like a small majority of ordinary people in German or France are either against or unsure/undecided about actions against Russia, such as sanctions. So you are right in this area. However I am right because the governments of both these nations are ALL ABOUT the current sanctions and are in fact pressing for even more sanctions. And in the end, that's what matters. The civilians can say no all they want but guess what? The sanctions are happening and will continue to happen and nothing the opinion polls say will change that. Am I or am I not right. Think hard. Do you think the people of France are going to have a Pro Russian revolution and overthrow their governments in order to stop their government from sanctioning Russia? Lol.
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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5/3/2014 6:34:39 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/3/2014 3:37:17 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 12:18:48 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 12:07:03 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 11:27:07 AM, monty1 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 10:45:41 AM, ararmer1919 wrote:
Will this be the tipping point that finally gives Putin the opportunity to invade Eastern Ukraine? Is this, as the article says, proof that Ukraine can no longer protect its citizens?

And for the more extreme folks here, could this be some sort of conspiracy? Fingers have been pointed at both sides for secretly being behind this incident. (For the record the US intelligence had made the prediction that Russia would stage something like this in Odessa over a month ago, similar to the apartment bombings on Moscow that helped secure favor for Russias invasion and conquest of Georgia several years ago.


http://rt.com...

We can look at some facts and then some possibilities:

First fact is that either side would have been morally right in taking the Ukraine by free and fair elections.

The present government exists illegally.

Yanukovich was and is the elected leader of the Ukraine.

Do you think Yanukovich should be returned to power?

And there is a real possibility that the slaughter of Russia favouring Ukrainians will go on until Putin's hand is forced. It's possible that he wants to wait until it's too very obvious that he would be acting to save the people. However, it's also possible that he won't act and will wait until after the upcoming elections. He may be confident that the people will choose to be on the side of Russia.

Do you believe civilian deaths would end if Russia was to intervene?

But if Putin acts to save the people from the Ukriane's illegal terrorist government then it's also possible that the US/Nato would see the Ukraine as the dispensable pawn in the game in order to set the propaganda stage against Russia in the eyes of the world. At the moment the EU is watching and is not yet being cooperative toward the US/Nato. It needs to win over Germany's support.

I disagree. The EU has been more then willing to back the Ukraine, and even has taken personal initiative to put pressure on Russia to deescalate the tension. The sanctions the EU put out a few days ago. And many of the members of the EU really don't want to see a stronger Russia on their borders. The only thing that has kept them from acting in a more aggressive way is their dependency on Russian natural gas, which in a few years may not be a factor any longer.

Your disagreemen with me on the fact that Germany is not cooperating is again showing that you are wrong and are making statements off the top of your head without researching them first.

http://yougov.co.uk...

And that kind of behaviour of yours is getting too consistent to bother responding to anymore until you improve your behaviour.

Ok. Let's get this straightened out. You are not wrong. But neither am I. Were just not on the same page here. Sure. It looks like a small majority of ordinary people in German or France are either against or unsure/undecided about actions against Russia, such as sanctions. So you are right in this area. However I am right because the governments of both these nations are ALL ABOUT the current sanctions and are in fact pressing for even more sanctions. And in the end, that's what matters. The civilians can say no all they want but guess what? The sanctions are happening and will continue to happen and nothing the opinion polls say will change that. Am I or am I not right. Think hard. Do you think the people of France are going to have a Pro Russian revolution and overthrow their governments in order to stop their government from sanctioning Russia? Lol.

It's not a few people in Germany, it's Merkel herself and her government. And once again you shoot your mouth off before you learn anything about the situation. You're a complete waste of fukking time and I'm finished with you.
ararmer1919
Posts: 362
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5/3/2014 9:16:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/3/2014 6:34:39 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 3:37:17 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 12:18:48 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 12:07:03 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 11:27:07 AM, monty1 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 10:45:41 AM, ararmer1919 wrote:
Will this be the tipping point that finally gives Putin the opportunity to invade Eastern Ukraine? Is this, as the article says, proof that Ukraine can no longer protect its citizens?

And for the more extreme folks here, could this be some sort of conspiracy? Fingers have been pointed at both sides for secretly being behind this incident. (For the record the US intelligence had made the prediction that Russia would stage something like this in Odessa over a month ago, similar to the apartment bombings on Moscow that helped secure favor for Russias invasion and conquest of Georgia several years ago.


http://rt.com...

We can look at some facts and then some possibilities:

First fact is that either side would have been morally right in taking the Ukraine by free and fair elections.

The present government exists illegally.

Yanukovich was and is the elected leader of the Ukraine.

Do you think Yanukovich should be returned to power?

And there is a real possibility that the slaughter of Russia favouring Ukrainians will go on until Putin's hand is forced. It's possible that he wants to wait until it's too very obvious that he would be acting to save the people. However, it's also possible that he won't act and will wait until after the upcoming elections. He may be confident that the people will choose to be on the side of Russia.

Do you believe civilian deaths would end if Russia was to intervene?

But if Putin acts to save the people from the Ukriane's illegal terrorist government then it's also possible that the US/Nato would see the Ukraine as the dispensable pawn in the game in order to set the propaganda stage against Russia in the eyes of the world. At the moment the EU is watching and is not yet being cooperative toward the US/Nato. It needs to win over Germany's support.

I disagree. The EU has been more then willing to back the Ukraine, and even has taken personal initiative to put pressure on Russia to deescalate the tension. The sanctions the EU put out a few days ago. And many of the members of the EU really don't want to see a stronger Russia on their borders. The only thing that has kept them from acting in a more aggressive way is their dependency on Russian natural gas, which in a few years may not be a factor any longer.

Your disagreemen with me on the fact that Germany is not cooperating is again showing that you are wrong and are making statements off the top of your head without researching them first.

http://yougov.co.uk...

And that kind of behaviour of yours is getting too consistent to bother responding to anymore until you improve your behaviour.

Ok. Let's get this straightened out. You are not wrong. But neither am I. Were just not on the same page here. Sure. It looks like a small majority of ordinary people in German or France are either against or unsure/undecided about actions against Russia, such as sanctions. So you are right in this area. However I am right because the governments of both these nations are ALL ABOUT the current sanctions and are in fact pressing for even more sanctions. And in the end, that's what matters. The civilians can say no all they want but guess what? The sanctions are happening and will continue to happen and nothing the opinion polls say will change that. Am I or am I not right. Think hard. Do you think the people of France are going to have a Pro Russian revolution and overthrow their governments in order to stop their government from sanctioning Russia? Lol.

It's not a few people in Germany, it's Merkel herself and her government. And once again you shoot your mouth off before you learn anything about the situation. You're a complete waste of fukking time and I'm finished with you.

So you are going to sit there and deny that either the French or German governments have instituted economic sanctions? Is that what I'm hearing? Because you know you can just go to google real quick and find a the exact list of all the different sanctions enacted by both those nations and 23 others against Russia over the course of the last few months as well as an overwhelming number of promises and threats of further sanctions in the future. Many of which were spearheaded by Merkel herself. So... What what point are you trying to make.

Oh wait let me guess. That's all Amerinazi propaganda and there actually hasn't been a single sanction enacted against Russia. Or oh wait. The American government/CIA were actually the ones who infiltrated and/or forced the governments of those poor countries to enact the sanctions. By order of the Jews of course.
Jifpop09
Posts: 2,243
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5/3/2014 9:22:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/3/2014 9:16:19 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 6:34:39 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 3:37:17 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 12:18:48 PM, monty1 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 12:07:03 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 11:27:07 AM, monty1 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 10:45:41 AM, ararmer1919 wrote:
Will this be the tipping point that finally gives Putin the opportunity to invade Eastern Ukraine? Is this, as the article says, proof that Ukraine can no longer protect its citizens?

And for the more extreme folks here, could this be some sort of conspiracy? Fingers have been pointed at both sides for secretly being behind this incident. (For the record the US intelligence had made the prediction that Russia would stage something like this in Odessa over a month ago, similar to the apartment bombings on Moscow that helped secure favor for Russias invasion and conquest of Georgia several years ago.


http://rt.com...

We can look at some facts and then some possibilities:

First fact is that either side would have been morally right in taking the Ukraine by free and fair elections.

The present government exists illegally.

Yanukovich was and is the elected leader of the Ukraine.

Do you think Yanukovich should be returned to power?

And there is a real possibility that the slaughter of Russia favouring Ukrainians will go on until Putin's hand is forced. It's possible that he wants to wait until it's too very obvious that he would be acting to save the people. However, it's also possible that he won't act and will wait until after the upcoming elections. He may be confident that the people will choose to be on the side of Russia.

Do you believe civilian deaths would end if Russia was to intervene?

But if Putin acts to save the people from the Ukriane's illegal terrorist government then it's also possible that the US/Nato would see the Ukraine as the dispensable pawn in the game in order to set the propaganda stage against Russia in the eyes of the world. At the moment the EU is watching and is not yet being cooperative toward the US/Nato. It needs to win over Germany's support.

I disagree. The EU has been more then willing to back the Ukraine, and even has taken personal initiative to put pressure on Russia to deescalate the tension. The sanctions the EU put out a few days ago. And many of the members of the EU really don't want to see a stronger Russia on their borders. The only thing that has kept them from acting in a more aggressive way is their dependency on Russian natural gas, which in a few years may not be a factor any longer.

Your disagreemen with me on the fact that Germany is not cooperating is again showing that you are wrong and are making statements off the top of your head without researching them first.

http://yougov.co.uk...

And that kind of behaviour of yours is getting too consistent to bother responding to anymore until you improve your behaviour.

Ok. Let's get this straightened out. You are not wrong. But neither am I. Were just not on the same page here. Sure. It looks like a small majority of ordinary people in German or France are either against or unsure/undecided about actions against Russia, such as sanctions. So you are right in this area. However I am right because the governments of both these nations are ALL ABOUT the current sanctions and are in fact pressing for even more sanctions. And in the end, that's what matters. The civilians can say no all they want but guess what? The sanctions are happening and will continue to happen and nothing the opinion polls say will change that. Am I or am I not right. Think hard. Do you think the people of France are going to have a Pro Russian revolution and overthrow their governments in order to stop their government from sanctioning Russia? Lol.

It's not a few people in Germany, it's Merkel herself and her government. And once again you shoot your mouth off before you learn anything about the situation. You're a complete waste of fukking time and I'm finished with you.

So you are going to sit there and deny that either the French or German governments have instituted economic sanctions? Is that what I'm hearing? Because you know you can just go to google real quick and find a the exact list of all the different sanctions enacted by both those nations and 23 others against Russia over the course of the last few months as well as an overwhelming number of promises and threats of further sanctions in the future. Many of which were spearheaded by Merkel herself. So... What what point are you trying to make.

Oh wait let me guess. That's all Amerinazi propaganda and there actually hasn't been a single sanction enacted against Russia. Or oh wait. The American government/CIA were actually the ones who infiltrated and/or forced the governments of those poor countries to enact the sanctions. By order of the Jews of course.

Lol
Leader of the DDO Revolution Party
monty1
Posts: 1,084
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5/4/2014 11:57:57 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
jifpop, he's not smart enough to understand that we were talking about energy sector sanctions and everybody knows that other meaningless sanctions have already been enacted by some European countries which includes Germany.

Why don't you pick up on the argument with him because frankly, I consider him a waste of energy?

Let's see if you are up to it?
Bemouh
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5/4/2014 7:10:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/3/2014 12:07:03 PM, ararmer1919 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 11:27:07 AM, monty1 wrote:
At 5/3/2014 10:45:41 AM, ararmer1919 wrote:
Will this be the tipping point that finally gives Putin the opportunity to invade Eastern Ukraine? Is this, as the article says, proof that Ukraine can no longer protect its citizens?

And for the more extreme folks here, could this be some sort of conspiracy? Fingers have been pointed at both sides for secretly being behind this incident. (For the record the US intelligence had made the prediction that Russia would stage something like this in Odessa over a month ago, similar to the apartment bombings on Moscow that helped secure favor for Russias invasion and conquest of Georgia several years ago.


http://rt.com...

We can look at some facts and then some possibilities:

First fact is that either side would have been morally right in taking the Ukraine by free and fair elections.

The present government exists illegally.

Yanukovich was and is the elected leader of the Ukraine.

Do you think Yanukovich should be returned to power?

And there is a real possibility that the slaughter of Russia favouring Ukrainians will go on until Putin's hand is forced. It's possible that he wants to wait until it's too very obvious that he would be acting to save the people. However, it's also possible that he won't act and will wait until after the upcoming elections. He may be confident that the people will choose to be on the side of Russia.

Do you believe civilian deaths would end if Russia was to intervene?

But if Putin acts to save the people from the Ukriane's illegal terrorist government then it's also possible that the US/Nato would see the Ukraine as the dispensable pawn in the game in order to set the propaganda stage against Russia in the eyes of the world. At the moment the EU is watching and is not yet being cooperative toward the US/Nato. It needs to win over Germany's support.

I disagree. The EU has been more then willing to back the Ukraine, and even has taken personal initiative to put pressure on Russia to deescalate the tension. The sanctions the EU put out a few days ago. And many of the members of the EU really don't want to see a stronger Russia on their borders. The only thing that has kept them from acting in a more aggressive way is their dependency on Russian natural gas, which in a few years may not be a factor any longer.

Ararmer, the way you look at it somewhat speaks a sound way of how anyone would see this, it might be a logical way of thinking yes, but let me tell you this, (Take in account the fact that I'm from the EU) at the early start of the Ukrainian revolution, in November/December 2013, when Russia was barely involved in this whole conflict, we (*The Netherlands) and many other European countries have already started counting, counting the days we can live without Russia, in this, I take The Netherlands as an example, not only because it's my country of residence, but also because The Netherlands has had a 600-year alliance with the Russian Federation and its predecessors. The Netherlands has a major transit and passage port (Europort) in South-Holland province, and major urban projects, to power all this, The Netherlands relies on Russian oil and gas, the National Institute of Strategic Planning and Statistics has figured out that The Netherlands would be economically dead after 43 days without Russian resources. This would have major consequences for the EU and economic import/export throughout the European continent, many trucks of the distributors that export these products from the Europort throughout Europe rely on the same Russian oil for their fuel, considering that these trucks mostly come from Poland, Romania, Serbia, Hungary and Bulgaria, these countries mostly rely on the products getting exported from the Europort and the Port of Antwerp.

Coming to that point, many of the international infrastructure in Europe, including the Port of Antwerp and Berlin International Airport, rely on the same oil and gas, the impact of a boycott from the Russian oil and gas from Gazprom would lead to big issues all across Europe and the Balkan region, at this moment, and at least the two coming decades still, there is no provider for the amount of resources these international infrastructures need.

On the political side, The Netherlands wasn't all-in for the sanctions sanctioned against Russia, but with pressure of the NATO, President Obama and Chancellor Merkel, the governing coalition parties of the Dutch parliament had no choice but to follow in order to remain one front with it's western partners. If we look at the national opposition parties on local base and national, they don't want to be involved in this, at this moment, we are fighting a war in South Sudan, Mali and the Central African Republic and soon to deploy more troops into the area.

Many aspects of the European side and national politics in Europe don't get shown on international news broadcasting agencies like BBC, CNN or Al-Jazeera.

As a European citizen and actively politically involved member of organizations I'll tell you how we get to hear it behind the scenes..: The reason why Ukraine wasn't taken in as a member of the European Union, is because most European countries can't afford to lose Russia as it's ally. For at least the coming few years, Ukraine won't even be eligible to become a full-EU member, and the only reason that a few weeks ago a cooperation was signed, is because we as Europe rely on the gas transport from Russia to Europe that runs through Ukraine.

If Putin and the Russian Federation would choose to step into the Ukrainian conflict, and conduct a military intervention, from the European side, I can tell you that Ukraine is on it's own, that's exactly the reason why the NATO and EU troops weren't stationed IN Ukraine but OUTSIDE Ukraine, Ukraine isn't a NATO member, nor is it an EU member, the EU won't defend Ukraine in this case, as for NATO.. it needs to get really bad, before they decide to step into Ukraine, their current military buildup is to secure the safety of the NATO members in the Baltic region, and the Balkan region, but not for Ukraine. Solely because Europe has too much at stake to be able to take on Russia, and can't afford to lose the imported recourses.

I hope you appreciate my European input, it might shine a different light on the whole case :)
Nulles Evadit - Cross Corps