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U.S. debt

Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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2/10/2010 12:55:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 12:54:08 PM, Kahvan wrote:
http://www.usdebtclock.org...

what should be done about this? America is spending and increasing its debt ay too much.

It should be repudiated.[1]

[1] http://mises.org...
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/10/2010 1:05:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 12:55:14 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 2/10/2010 12:54:08 PM, Kahvan wrote:
http://www.usdebtclock.org...

what should be done about this? America is spending and increasing its debt ay too much.

It should be repudiated.[1]

Uh, no.

We should pay it down eventually, and keep it down by reducing spending.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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2/10/2010 1:07:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 1:04:11 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Sell Alaska. Or Hawaii.

lol, you can't just sell a state. A state is made up of lots of private property, which the "state" nor the "US" have ownership rights of.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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2/10/2010 1:08:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 1:07:19 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 2/10/2010 1:04:11 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Sell Alaska. Or Hawaii.

lol, you can't just sell a state. A state is made up of lots of private property, which the "state" nor the "US" have ownership rights of.

Sell the rights to govern the state. Essentially, transfer "ownership" if you will.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/10/2010 1:16:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 1:08:40 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 2/10/2010 1:07:19 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 2/10/2010 1:04:11 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Sell Alaska. Or Hawaii.

lol, you can't just sell a state. A state is made up of lots of private property, which the "state" nor the "US" have ownership rights of.

Sell the rights to govern the state. Essentially, transfer "ownership" if you will.

lol, the US can't do that either. They only are given those powers that the states gave them in the constitution.

The "right" to govern the state the state reserves in all cases but those which the constitution provides to be the domain of the Feds.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Reasoning
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2/10/2010 1:27:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 1:05:40 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Uh, no.
We should pay it down eventually, and keep it down by reducing spending.

Uh, no.

It should be repudiated.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
mattrodstrom
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2/10/2010 1:33:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 1:27:55 PM, Reasoning wrote:

Uh, no.

It should be repudiated.

lol. I did like my answer, I thought it was fitting given yours (though admittedly I didn't link to a wall of ideology)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
curious18
Posts: 98
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2/10/2010 1:33:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 12:55:14 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 2/10/2010 12:54:08 PM, Kahvan wrote:
http://www.usdebtclock.org...

what should be done about this? America is spending and increasing its debt ay too much.

It should be repudiated.[1]

[1] http://mises.org...

You're kidding, right? Just sell the government to the highest bidder? I'm sure that will have no concequences in the future.
mattrodstrom
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2/10/2010 1:35:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 1:33:42 PM, curious18 wrote:
At 2/10/2010 12:55:14 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 2/10/2010 12:54:08 PM, Kahvan wrote:
http://www.usdebtclock.org...

what should be done about this? America is spending and increasing its debt ay too much.

It should be repudiated.[1]

[1] http://mises.org...

You're kidding, right? Just sell the government to the highest bidder? I'm sure that will have no concequences in the future.

you quoted the wrong man.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Reasoning
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2/10/2010 1:35:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 1:33:42 PM, curious18 wrote:
You're kidding, right? Just sell the government to the highest bidder? I'm sure that will have no concequences in the future.

Not at all, in fact, just the opposite. Repudiation: the refusal of public authorities to acknowledge or pay a debt[1]

[1] http://www.merriam-webster.com...
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
I-am-a-panda
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2/10/2010 1:36:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 1:35:38 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 2/10/2010 1:33:42 PM, curious18 wrote:
You're kidding, right? Just sell the government to the highest bidder? I'm sure that will have no concequences in the future.

Not at all, in fact, just the opposite. Repudiation: the refusal of public authorities to acknowledge or pay a debt[1]

[1] http://www.merriam-webster.com...

You do realise no nation will lend America money then, as well as severe international consequences.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/10/2010 1:37:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 1:36:49 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 2/10/2010 1:35:38 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 2/10/2010 1:33:42 PM, curious18 wrote:
You're kidding, right? Just sell the government to the highest bidder? I'm sure that will have no concequences in the future.

Not at all, in fact, just the opposite. Repudiation: the refusal of public authorities to acknowledge or pay a debt[1]

[1] http://www.merriam-webster.com...

You do realise no nation will lend America money then
I don't think he would have a problem with that

, as well as severe international consequences.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Reasoning
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2/10/2010 1:38:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 1:36:49 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
You do realise no nation will lend America money then,

That is one of the good effects it will have, yes.

as well as severe international consequences.

China might be a bit upset, but oh well.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
mattrodstrom
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2/10/2010 1:38:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 1:37:45 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:

I don't think he would have a problem with that

I don't know that I would have too much of a prob with that either, I just think, primarily, that we have a moral obligation.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Reasoning
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2/10/2010 1:41:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 1:38:59 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I don't know that I would have too much of a prob with that either, I just think, primarily, that we have a moral obligation.

That is very noble of you and once I would have agreed with you, however, you are sadly mistaken.

"Most people, unfortunately, apply the same analysis to public debt as they do to private. If sanctity of contracts should rule in the world of private debt, shouldn't they be equally as sacrosanct in public debt? Shouldn't public debt be governed by the same principles as private? The answer is no, even though such an answer may shock the sensibilities of most people. The reason is that the two forms of debt-transaction are totally different. If I borrow money from a mortgage bank, I have made a contract to transfer my money to a creditor at a future date; in a deep sense, he is the true owner of the money at that point, and if I don't pay I am robbing him of his just property. But when government borrows money, it does not pledge its own money; its own resources are not liable. Government commits not its own life, fortune, and sacred honor to repay the debt, but ours. This is a horse, and a transaction, of a very different color." - Murray Rothbard[1]

[1] http://mises.org...
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
mattrodstrom
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2/10/2010 1:48:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 1:41:52 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 2/10/2010 1:38:59 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I don't know that I would have too much of a prob with that either, I just think, primarily, that we have a moral obligation.

That is very noble of you and once I would have agreed with you, however, you are sadly mistaken.

"Most people, unfortunately, apply the same analysis to public debt as they do to private. If sanctity of contracts should rule in the world of private debt, shouldn't they be equally as sacrosanct in public debt? Shouldn't public debt be governed by the same principles as private? The answer is no, even though such an answer may shock the sensibilities of most people. The reason is that the two forms of debt-transaction are totally different. If I borrow money from a mortgage bank, I have made a contract to transfer my money to a creditor at a future date; in a deep sense, he is the true owner of the money at that point, and if I don't pay I am robbing him of his just property. But when government borrows money, it does not pledge its own money; its own resources are not liable. Government commits not its own life, fortune, and sacred honor to repay the debt, but ours. This is a horse, and a transaction, of a very different color." - Murray Rothbard[1]

[1] http://mises.org...

I suppose the diff. between me and Rothbard (you) then would be that I am in support of my form of government and would not have myself, or others, forsake it's debts.

I think that having a State (as is roughly spelled out by our constitution) is a good thing, and though it may be coercive in some manners, is a necessity.

I would not forsake it and would not repudiate it's responsibilities.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Reasoning
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2/10/2010 2:05:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 1:48:58 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I suppose the diff. between me and Rothbard (you) then would be that I am in support of my form of government and would not have myself, or others, forsake it's debts.

I think that having a State (as is roughly spelled out by our constitution) is a good thing, and though it may be coercive in some manners, is a necessity.

I would not forsake it and would not repudiate it's responsibilities.

And I completely respect your right to pay off the debt yourself or to form an organization to pay off this debt that you feel you have a moral responsibility to pay off. But I hope that you respect the right of others to not have to pay off this debt that that they did not agree to.

"I propose, then, a seemingly drastic but actually far less destructive way of paying off the public debt at a single blow: out-right debt repudiation. Consider this question: why should the poor, battered citizens of Russia or Poland or the other ex-Communist countries be bound by the debts contracted by their former Communist masters? In the Communist situation, the injustice is clear: that citizens struggling for freedom and for a free-market economy should be taxed to pay for debts contracted by the monstrous former ruling class. But this injustice only differs by degree from "normal" public debt. For, conversely, why should the Communist government of the Soviet Union have been bound by debts contracted by the Czarist government they hated and overthrew? And why should we, struggling American citizens of today, be bound by debts created by a past ruling elite who contracted these debts at our expense? One of the cogent arguments against paying blacks "reparations" for past slavery is that we, the living, were not slaveholders. Similarly, we the living did not contract for either the past or the present debts incurred by the politicians and bureaucrats in Washington." - Murray Rothbard[1]

[1] http://mises.org...
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Reasoning
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2/10/2010 2:11:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 2:09:46 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Yeah, okay - I'd like to see what happens when the United States says "This debt is illegitimate. We're not paying it."

I would as well.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Cody_Franklin
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2/10/2010 2:15:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 2:11:00 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 2/10/2010 2:09:46 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Yeah, okay - I'd like to see what happens when the United States says "This debt is illegitimate. We're not paying it."

I would as well.

By the way, you don't get to be an impartial observer. If our government gets f*cked, we get f*cked.
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
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2/10/2010 3:03:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 3:00:35 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/10/2010 1:04:11 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Sell Alaska. Or Hawaii.

We'll take Alaska. We're connected to it anyway. :D

The federal government can't sell Alaska. Alaska is owned by Alaska.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/10/2010 3:19:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 3:00:35 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/10/2010 1:04:11 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Sell Alaska. Or Hawaii.

We'll take Alaska. We're connected to it anyway. :D

Can't have it. Maybe we'll just Imperialistically take Canada, and exploit it's resources. That would have to be easier than the Middle East deal we've got going.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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2/10/2010 3:27:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 3:19:45 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 2/10/2010 3:00:35 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 2/10/2010 1:04:11 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Sell Alaska. Or Hawaii.

We'll take Alaska. We're connected to it anyway. :D

Can't have it. Maybe we'll just Imperialistically take Canada, and exploit it's resources. That would have to be easier than the Middle East deal we've got going.

No taking canada! You can have the queen though. Canada needs to become a republic.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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2/10/2010 3:31:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 2:11:00 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 2/10/2010 2:09:46 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Yeah, okay - I'd like to see what happens when the United States says "This debt is illegitimate. We're not paying it."

I would as well.

Ugh. [1] Typical. [2] You're hopeless. [3]

[1] http://en.wiktionary.org...
[2] See: any of your posts.
[3] Stop: quoting random stuff, adding nothing to the conversation, and thread-hijacking.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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2/10/2010 3:32:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/10/2010 3:27:16 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
No taking canada! You can have the queen though. Canada needs to become a republic.

How dare you! God save the Queen! Want some tea?