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Immigration and cultural identity

ben2974
Posts: 767
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5/21/2014 11:20:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'm interested in knowing about others' views regarding the upholding of cultural integrity within countries like France, Italy, Spain, Japan, China, etc. where there remains a distinct identity. (e.g. France speaks French, separation of church and state, etc).

Would you allow less strict immigration laws if you represented one of these countries? The USA is an example that cannot be used, for obvious reasons. Immigration law severity is dependent on state conditions to be adhered by all incoming immigrants. So, technically a state could allow a huge number of immigrants but they are all subject to the conditions set by the host country (i.e., you must accept this, do that, etc).

For example: What do you think about adding a secondary language for a country like France and Italy where their official language is a major trait of the country. Since the Muslim population is rising in Euro countries (like England and France), should governments recognize Arabic to accommodate them (making Arabic an official language)?

Everything here, I guess, is dependent on how one values culture, and here's my take on this:
I think that it's important for a country to have an identity. I respect the differences in cultures and I think that keeping a culture shows the most respect, rather than mixing cultures.

In order to help give reason to support my above standing, I allude to the issue of interracial/intercultural marriage. I respect races and cultures. We talk about interracial marriage and discuss how it shows mutual understanding and respect for the other kind of person when we interbreed. You may say that because you would find no problem marrying into another race/culture that you accept and respect another culture, but because I respect and accept the culture, I think it is necessary to preserve the culture; so, I will not mix, as that, to me, is a signal for a disregard of culture. If you have a disregard for your partner's identity, how can you say that you respect it?

Also, another reason I find it necessary to keep from intermixing is because *true* understanding/respect of something is when you can look at something else and accept the differences while maintaining your own self. In other words, coexisting is harder to do and therefore a higher achievement for humanity.

America is the prime example of the progress made toward "mutual understanding" and coexisting. It is a melting pot of cultures - that is American culture as it is a land of immigrants. Yes, there are couples from different backgrounds who get together. Fine, whatever. What i'm looking at is the fact that we're a country of immigrants and so a country that boasts diversity. And the fact that we are able to coexist with all the different kinds of backgrounds we all come from (though not yet perfectly of course) is a much bigger accomplishment in and of itself. We are able to respect each individual's culture and at the same time allow each individual to be different.

Concerning the culturally distinct countries: the American individuals with their respective cultures all have their homelands, or countries of origin which of course are host to the held culture of said individual. If that individual can have his identity respected, then those countries of origin should therefore also have their identity respected. So, you can immigrate but should adopt the culture you are immigrating to. That includes adopting the language. Therefore, a rising Muslim population in, say France, should only mean that all those Muslims should learn French.
Mr_Soundboard
Posts: 62
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5/23/2014 5:53:43 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Protection of culture, language and this idea that people coming into another country and not mixing some how dilutes the culture is ridiculous. It is, quite frankly, racist drivel trying to masquerade and something more intelligent.

I'm a British born Pakistani Muslim. I speak English, think in English, have many English traits, mannerisms, dress sense but also have many Pakistani cultural traits and am a practicing Muslim. All these aspects of my life go hand in hand. There can be no separation because then I wouldn't be who I am.

There is this fascist fear, which seems to be rearing it's head again in 21st century Europe, that foreigners are going to invade our streets, our schools, our lands and our people. It's this inability to accept people from varying backgrounds which lead to rampant, fascist nationalism, leading to two world wars.

The UK, for the large part, is far more tolerant than Spain, France or Italy. You, the thread starter, speak of respecting other cultures and yet say that it is a reason for not having interracial relationships/marriag...come on, that's an absolute lie. You just dislike interracial marriage because you can't stand seeing a white man/woman with a person of other backgrounds.

And you finished off by saying Muslims in France should know French, most Muslims in France are from Alegrian, Tunisian backgrounds, I'm pretty sure their french is exceptional, which it obviously is as I've met many of them.

So ultimately, what are you trying to say? That people from different cultural/racial/religious backgrounds should all live in their tiny communities and only interact when they have to?
"Conscience is universal, the ability to adhere to that moral thought is not"
ben2974
Posts: 767
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5/23/2014 5:58:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/23/2014 5:53:43 AM, Mr_Soundboard wrote:
Protection of culture, language and this idea that people coming into another country and not mixing some how dilutes the culture is ridiculous. It is, quite frankly, racist drivel trying to masquerade and something more intelligent.

I'm a British born Pakistani Muslim. I speak English, think in English, have many English traits, mannerisms, dress sense but also have many Pakistani cultural traits and am a practicing Muslim. All these aspects of my life go hand in hand. There can be no separation because then I wouldn't be who I am.

There is this fascist fear, which seems to be rearing it's head again in 21st century Europe, that foreigners are going to invade our streets, our schools, our lands and our people. It's this inability to accept people from varying backgrounds which lead to rampant, fascist nationalism, leading to two world wars.

The UK, for the large part, is far more tolerant than Spain, France or Italy. You, the thread starter, speak of respecting other cultures and yet say that it is a reason for not having interracial relationships/marriag...come on, that's an absolute lie. You just dislike interracial marriage because you can't stand seeing a white man/woman with a person of other backgrounds.

And you finished off by saying Muslims in France should know French, most Muslims in France are from Alegrian, Tunisian backgrounds, I'm pretty sure their french is exceptional, which it obviously is as I've met many of them.

So ultimately, what are you trying to say? That people from different cultural/racial/religious backgrounds should all live in their tiny communities and only interact when they have to?

This thread first picked up in the Philosophy subsection. So, I will refrain from rebutting and hope that you come over to the philosophy forum to check out and eventually repost what you've said here (or hopefully alter it a bit after going through the thread so I won't be repeating things for you).
1Percenter
Posts: 781
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5/29/2014 4:34:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/23/2014 5:53:43 AM, Mr_Soundboard wrote:
Protection of culture, language and this idea that people coming into another country and not mixing some how dilutes the culture is ridiculous. It is, quite frankly, racist drivel trying to masquerade and something more intelligent.

This is observably false. The Hawaiian language has all but died since the islands have been increasingly populated with Americans. And labeling it as "racist" does not dictate objective reality. The only thing that matters is if the observation is true or not.
I'm a British born Pakistani Muslim. I speak English, think in English, have many English traits, mannerisms, dress sense but also have many Pakistani cultural traits and am a practicing Muslim. All these aspects of my life go hand in hand. There can be no separation because then I wouldn't be who I am.

The Pakistani population has some detrimental affects on Britain. Though they account for just 3.4% of all births in Britain, they accounted for 30% of all British children with recessive disorders due to inbreeding, as it was also found that most married Pakistani men are married to their first cousin. The transformative effect of immigration goes both ways. The host culture is effected by the immigrant culture, so it is as reasonable to expect that first cousin marriage will be not only legalized, but adopted by parts of the native population as well. Im sure this will pass as "progress" even though it is regressive and detrimental to society, however.
There is this fascist fear, which seems to be rearing it's head again in 21st century Europe, that foreigners are going to invade our streets, our schools, our lands and our people. It's this inability to accept people from varying backgrounds which lead to rampant, fascist nationalism, leading to two world wars.

Diverse groups of people living together sure doesn't cause peace and harmony. The Croats didn't fight the Vietnamese, they fought the Serbs. The Chechnya don't target the Danish, they target the Russians. The North Koreans don't threaten the Aborigines, they threaten the South Koreans. Importing large numbers of foreigners increases tensions between cultures. Instead of bringing an end to nationalism, multiculturalism is creating ethnic strife.
The UK, for the large part, is far more tolerant than Spain, France or Italy. You, the thread starter, speak of respecting other cultures and yet say that it is a reason for not having interracial relationships/marriag...come on, that's an absolute lie. You just dislike interracial marriage because you can't stand seeing a white man/woman with a person of other backgrounds.

And you finished off by saying Muslims in France should know French, most Muslims in France are from Alegrian, Tunisian backgrounds, I'm pretty sure their french is exceptional, which it obviously is as I've met many of them.

So ultimately, what are you trying to say? That people from different cultural/racial/religious backgrounds should all live in their tiny communities and only interact when they have to?
And the problem with this is...? Humanity is naturally self-segregating. It is desegregation that is I. Indeed if it were not then we wouldn't have disiltinguishable peoples, i.e. The French, Spanish, Japanese, Latins, etc