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Teacher Tenure abolished in California

ClassicRobert
Posts: 2,487
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6/11/2014 3:47:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Teacher tenure in California was ruled unconstitutional. I'm hugely in favor of the abolishment of k-12 teacher tenure- it seems like a classic example of placing teachers before the students. What are your thoughts?

http://www.npr.org...
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dylancatlow
Posts: 12,255
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6/11/2014 4:16:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Tenure as practiced currently is so obviously unsound, that it's hard to see how it was ever adopted in the first place. Yes, let's make it nearly impossible to fire teachers, that'll motivate them! LOL
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/12/2014 9:12:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/11/2014 4:16:28 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Tenure as practiced currently is so obviously unsound, that it's hard to see how it was ever adopted in the first place.
Not hard at all, it's the same sort of guild/cartel politics that gives us medical licensure or agricultural and oil subsidies.

A small number of people are benefited by something that the majority are harmed by, but for the small number of people that issue really really matters, so it affects how they vote, whereas for the large number it's a relatively minor part of their lives, which they don't find worth the investment of their attention.
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IrishWolverine
Posts: 11
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6/12/2014 3:17:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I never understood why it should be neigh impossible to fire people who suck at their job(regardless of how "vital" that job is).
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Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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6/12/2014 3:28:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/12/2014 3:17:05 PM, IrishWolverine wrote:
I never understood why it should be neigh impossible to fire people who suck at their job(regardless of how "vital" that job is).

In the case of teachers, is it because they suck at their job, or are the students not trying (think inner-city schools where half the people don't show up)?
How exactly do you grade performance on a teacher?
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Jjjohn
Posts: 16
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6/12/2014 3:29:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/12/2014 9:12:54 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 6/11/2014 4:16:28 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Tenure as practiced currently is so obviously unsound, that it's hard to see how it was ever adopted in the first place.
Not hard at all, it's the same sort of guild/cartel politics that gives us medical licensure or agricultural and oil subsidies.

A small number of people are benefited by something that the majority are harmed by, but for the small number of people that issue really really matters, so it affects how they vote, whereas for the large number it's a relatively minor part of their lives, which they don't find worth the investment of their attention.

I'd like to see non-anecdotal evidence that a large number of people are harmed by the conditions of employment for teachers in some states.
IrishWolverine
Posts: 11
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6/12/2014 3:59:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/12/2014 3:28:59 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
In the case of teachers, is it because they suck at their job, or are the students not trying (think inner-city schools where half the people don't show up)?
How exactly do you grade performance on a teacher?

I'm not a big fan of the public school system in general, I think the whole thing needs a major overhaul with new priorities and tactics. Because of this, I know it's unfair to blame teachers for a lot of things; they're often under pressure to get a certain type of result out of their students even if it's a counterproductive one that's just for show(i.e., standardized tests). Several of my aunts are teachers too, so they know a lot of what goes on behind the scenes. I'm specifically thinking of the teachers with anger issues, the ones who throw their kids under the bus to get ahead, the weird ones(seriously, how do so many teachers get hired that end up exposing themselves to kids inappropriately?)

Also, some people just aren't cut out for teaching. It's a somewhat subjective area I know, but you can just tell when a teacher don't connect with their students: they don't have the disposition or the enthusiasm for it, or they're just plain boring. If students aren't coming to class, I would look into the methods employed and determine if the kids are skipping because they just don't want to apply themselves, or it's because their class is boring/not challenging. Even as a kid, I could tell which teachers loved their subject matter, and which were just there because they were stuck.

This answer is a bit rambling, but again, it's because I partially blame the public school system and its bureaucratic expectations.
"I'm the best there is at what I do, but what I do best isn't very nice. " ///

"You either die a hero...or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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6/12/2014 10:37:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/12/2014 3:29:20 PM, Jjjohn wrote:
At 6/12/2014 9:12:54 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 6/11/2014 4:16:28 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
Tenure as practiced currently is so obviously unsound, that it's hard to see how it was ever adopted in the first place.
Not hard at all, it's the same sort of guild/cartel politics that gives us medical licensure or agricultural and oil subsidies.

A small number of people are benefited by something that the majority are harmed by, but for the small number of people that issue really really matters, so it affects how they vote, whereas for the large number it's a relatively minor part of their lives, which they don't find worth the investment of their attention.

I'd like to see non-anecdotal evidence that a large number of people are harmed by the conditions of employment for teachers in some states.

Premise 1: Receiving less quality of teacher per tax dollar taken is a harm to taxpayers who at some point in their life interact with public education.
Premise 2: Tenure lowers quality of teacher per tax dollar.
Premise 3: Premise 1 described a LOT of taxpayers.
Conclusion. Yes, a large number of people are harmed in relatively minor ways by educational tenure.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.