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Republika Srpska - Independent?

Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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2/18/2010 4:46:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
What is your position on Republika Srpska (i.e. Serb Republic), the entity in Bosnia and Herzegovina? I personally believe that anybody who supports the entity in being independent has no proper understanding of politics. The entity was made in order to separate two religious and ethnic groups in Bosnia, not as a possible country. I see no reason for why anybody would want it to be independent. In fact it would make the Muslims and Christians hate each other even more, because then they would never learn how to live with each other.

What do you think?
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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2/18/2010 4:52:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I agree, though it isn't as if I can't say those that are asking for independence are completely wrong in their position. Serbs aren't welcome in Bosnia, and they don't want to be a part of Bosnia - is it really smart to keep them together?

I'd rather try to keep the conversation going towards keeping them united - but I know that to force them together after all other options fail isn't right.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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2/18/2010 5:00:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
History tells us that the only reason Serbs want their own land is because they want a Great Serbia. WW1 is a hint. Also, why did Serbia not want Kosovo to be independent? They are as much Muslims as Bosnians.

And they can leave peacefully together, but the politicians don't let them do so. When all we hear from the nationalist politicians is "I love Serb Republic, but I also like Bosnia", we already know that they fantasize about an independent Serb Republic. The democracy in Bosnia gives equal rights to all ethnic groups in Bosnia, then what would it change if the Serbs got their own land?

I know that in Bosnia, people have no problem with each other, as long as the politicians don't call for nationalism, and the biggest nationalists are the Serbs. For instance, if you watch Eurovision, you can clearly see how the Serb audience is applauding loudly for the Bosnian, Croatian etc. singers, and the other way around, and they also give high points to each other, which is a sign of friendship. Once the politicians scream, "We won't let them control Serb Republic!", you know what the citizens think of. It's unacceptable. I think the Bosnian government should invest highly in military, so that any attempt to ruin Bosnia would be crushed.
Volkov
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2/18/2010 5:11:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Serbs are not always necessarily focused on the idea of "Greater Serbia." At the moment, most Serbs are worried about no longer being pariahs on their own continent. This doesn't mean they'll be silent as historical parts of their country like Kosovo leave, which was at the heart of the Serbian medieval culture. Nor will they stay silent when in another country, Serbians there are being denied the chance to leave. The idea that Serbia is supposed to be a tame tiger, never biting the hand that feeds, even as that hand chops off parts of its body, is one that is both hypocritical and cruel at once.

The day the federal Bosnian government marches into Sprska is the day the new Balkan War occurs, and if it does, I wouldn't blame Serbia for anything. If there are a people that want to be independent, regardless of how much compromise is made to keep them, there is no excuse for the use of military force against them. No excuse. I don't care if they're the worst Serbian nationalists you can dream up. They have a right to their own determination.

And Eurovision is not a good measure of ethnic tensions. I worked with a Bosnian Serb for a time, probably seven months back now, and he visits fairly often. I asked him all about this, and he said that you could cut the tension with a knife. Its there, everyday, simmering under the surface. Its a pot that is close to boiling over.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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2/18/2010 5:32:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/18/2010 5:11:15 PM, Volkov wrote:
Serbs are not always necessarily focused on the idea of "Greater Serbia." At the moment, most Serbs are worried about no longer being pariahs on their own continent. This doesn't mean they'll be silent as historical parts of their country like Kosovo leave, which was at the heart of the Serbian medieval culture. Nor will they stay silent when in another country, Serbians there are being denied the chance to leave. The idea that Serbia is supposed to be a tame tiger, never biting the hand that feeds, even as that hand chops off parts of its body, is one that is both hypocritical and cruel at once.

The day the federal Bosnian government marches into Sprska is the day the new Balkan War occurs, and if it does, I wouldn't blame Serbia for anything. If there are a people that want to be independent, regardless of how much compromise is made to keep them, there is no excuse for the use of military force against them. No excuse. I don't care if they're the worst Serbian nationalists you can dream up. They have a right to their own determination.

And Eurovision is not a good measure of ethnic tensions. I worked with a Bosnian Serb for a time, probably seven months back now, and he visits fairly often. I asked him all about this, and he said that you could cut the tension with a knife. Its there, everyday, simmering under the surface. Its a pot that is close to boiling over.
Similarly with what you've said, Bosnians don't want their land to be taken away from them either, like the Serbians do not want Kosovo to be taken.

Why should we allow Serbs to take away the land which also belongs to Bosnians? If they don't want to live alongside Bosnians (which they have no reason not to], they can move to Serbia. There are also Croats in Bosnia. Should we also let them take 1/3 of Bosnia? Then Bosnians would be left with literally nothing. They wouldn't have the pride of being Bosnians. Just because many Serbs want their own land does not mean that we should give it to them. The sovereignty of Bosnia is clear, so with the democracy there any person can govern, whether Muslim or Christian, Serb or Bosnian.

Perhaps the Bosnian Serb you've spoken to thinks badly of the situation there, but I myself am a Bosnian and have lived there a bit less than 50% of my life, and I also visit the country every year. I think the people there can live peacefully, and SFRY is a great example of that. Nobody questioned your religion or ethnic background. So they should keep the land whole, give equal rights, and stop yelling about Serb Republic, because that is not a country. Their country is Bosnia.
Volkov
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2/18/2010 5:50:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The problem, Mirza, is that you're asking Serbs to belong to a country that they do not want to belong to. Not how it currently is. I mean, the difference of opinion that you yourself note between my friend and you, both people who have lived in Bosnia, is pretty damning evidence that no one is on the same page. There are different views and before there can be any reconciliation, you must be on the same page. And telling the Serbs that their country is Bosnia, is not being on the same page, or even in the middle.

Now, I understand what you're saying. I don't disagree, either. But just as you know that Bosnians themselves would be at a loss if both the Serbs and the Croatians asked for their own land, you need to realize that the Serbs feel at a loss by being told that they must adhere to Bosnia's ideals if they want to continue living in their homes. You can't simply ask them to leave and go to Serbia - maybe they don't feel any loyalty to Serbia, any more than you as a Muslim feel loyalty to Iraq, Iran, or Qatar. Its your home that you feel loyal to, not just the broader ideal.

Besides, Bosnia recognizes Srpska's borders and lands. They have set borders out that are accepted by the international community as well as their federal department. You can't really argue they're taking unmarked land when its clearly marked. :P
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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2/18/2010 6:09:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Think about it. Each year there are more and more Muslims in Denmark. How fair would i be if one day, Muslims wanted their own land in order to wear the burka (in case it becomes banned) and so forth? Would it be justifiable if the non-Muslim Danes gave a piece of their land to Muslims, just so that the Muslims can live freely? No, this would not be fair. Besides, there is not one single law in Bosnia that makes the Serbs feel bad. In fact, if you watch Bosnian media, you can see how it's mainly Serbs who always keep saying they hate Bosnians etc., while they give no reason for that. They only use the war as their reason. But who was the victim in the war? The Muslims. The Serbs honored a Hitler-like criminal, and still scream to set him free.

Bosnians on the other side, deserve Bosnia as their land because they have never oppressed Serbs [not as beginners]. They are offering Serbs to live peacefully with them, but the Serbs refuse. Do you know that when Bosnia played vs Serbia a couple of years ago [soccer], people from Serb Republic went to Serbia and cheered for Serbia, and violently attacked the very few Bosnians in the stadium. They were thousands against a couple of Bosnians. Why did they not cheer for Bosnia? Why not stay neutral? This simply shows that they want a Serb Republic and Serbia to be united, or at least near that level. I will always object to that. You Bosnian Serb friend may not be on my side, but why? If he loves Bosnia as a whole, then he's on my side. Or does he want me to support his nationalist view? Never. Bosnia must always be a whole country. I'd personally invest in military if I were the president. No worthless nationalists should ruin my country. Serb Republic is also a beautiful and historical part of Bosnia, and they expect us to give it away? Then Croats would take Herzegovina. Rather an all-out war than a worthless defeat. Look at the 90's, and see what Serbs did to Bosnians. Can any Bosnian Serb refer to one law that is oppressing him? One Muslim politician? No, absolutely not. Look up Radovan Karadzic. Look up Milorad Dodik. All they want is an independent Serb Republic. Why not work on a reunited Bosnia? Did we solve the major racial discrimination problems in USA by splitting USA into 3/4 for white people and 1/4 for black people? Or did we stand up as human beings and called for equality and justice?
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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2/18/2010 11:33:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/18/2010 4:46:43 PM, Mirza wrote:
What is your position on Republika Srpska (i.e. Serb Republic), the entity in Bosnia and Herzegovina? I personally believe that anybody who supports the entity in being independent has no proper understanding of politics. The entity was made in order to separate two religious and ethnic groups in Bosnia, not as a possible country. I see no reason for why anybody would want it to be independent. In fact it would make the Muslims and Christians hate each other even more, because then they would never learn how to live with each other.

What do you think?

They have been living together for centuries and they still hate each other!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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2/19/2010 4:43:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
They only started hating each other after the war in the 90's broke out. Everybody loved each under under the rule of Josip Broz Tito. That is because nobody yelled "Serbia" or "Bosnia" all the time, but Yugoslavia. My family and relatives lived under Tito's ruling there. They say everything was perfect. Nobody looked at your religion or ethnicity.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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2/19/2010 7:52:30 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/19/2010 4:43:44 AM, Mirza wrote:
They only started hating each other after the war in the 90's broke out. Everybody loved each under under the rule of Josip Broz Tito. That is because nobody yelled "Serbia" or "Bosnia" all the time, but Yugoslavia. My family and relatives lived under Tito's ruling there. They say everything was perfect. Nobody looked at your religion or ethnicity.

Bull.
Stable rule merely held the hatred in suspension, but you don't just wave a magic wand and remove ethnic tensions in the balkans.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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2/19/2010 7:58:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/18/2010 6:09:18 PM, Mirza wrote:
Bosnia must always be a whole country. I'd personally invest in military if I were the president. No worthless nationalists should ruin my country. Serb Republic is also a beautiful and historical part of Bosnia, and they expect us to give it away?

Why do you care so much about Bosnia remaining 1 country??

If there's a whole big group of people in a wide swath of land within it who don't wish to remain in your govt. ... Why force them to?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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2/19/2010 9:08:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/18/2010 4:46:43 PM, Mirza wrote:
What is your position on Republika Srpska (i.e. Serb Republic), the entity in Bosnia and Herzegovina? I personally believe that anybody who supports the entity in being independent has no proper understanding of politics. The entity was made in order to separate two religious and ethnic groups in Bosnia, not as a possible country. I see no reason for why anybody would want it to be independent. In fact it would make the Muslims and Christians hate each other even more, because then they would never learn how to live with each other.

What do you think?

I favor the No State Solution.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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2/19/2010 10:01:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/19/2010 9:08:40 AM, Reasoning wrote:
I favor the No State Solution.

Oh, that's so witty and contributes to so much!

Reasoning, I always enjoy a good chat... but try actually offering something worthwhile to the topic, instead of your own, non-related, political bias.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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2/19/2010 10:12:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Mirza, there is a large difference between Muslims in Denmark, and Serbs in Bosnia. In one situation, they are immigrants; the other are a people that have occupied the land for centuries, and have been at war several times with the neighbors around them, causing those neighbors to distinguish them from any other population.

Besides, you attack them for using the war, then you turn around and use the war to attack them! It doesn't help anything. The war doesn't justify Bosnia's expulsion, or Serbian guilt trips. There is a lot more history behind it than that. And I'm not going to simply watch Bosnia media on it - are you just trying to set up bias?

And while you're entire paragraph there rails against Serbs trying to split things apart, you're simply trying to ask for the reverse - incorporate the Serbs, whether they like it or not. How is that any solution? They have the right to determination, a right that the Bosnians also recognize. You can't argue against it unless you want to oppress the Serbs the same way they oppressed the Bosnians.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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2/20/2010 10:39:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/19/2010 10:12:22 AM, Volkov wrote:
Mirza, there is a large difference between Muslims in Denmark, and Serbs in Bosnia. In one situation, they are immigrants; the other are a people that have occupied the land for centuries, and have been at war several times with the neighbors around them, causing those neighbors to distinguish them from any other population.
I am also talking about the Danes who convert to Islam. Denmark belongs to them, too. So what if 40% of the Danish population wants 50% of the country for them, merely because they want Islamic laws? Even if it should happen in 200 years, as with the case of Serbs in Bosnia. The land belongs to all who are there, mainly Bosnians. Now you know very well that Serbs from there are called Bosnian Serbs, which means that they are a part of a country that is a whole. The Dayton agreement was made not to split Serbs and ethnic Bosnians, but to make a little distinction between them. If this agreement faces its end, then no country in the entire world with entities like Bosnia will remain whole. Think about China, Russia, USA etc. How would you react if a state in Canada wanted to get independent? It wouldn't be fair. Just because there's no violent history behind does not mean that there won't be. Yet I'm sure that if you love your country you won't be fine with it. Nor am I when some people who are getting a fair treatment want to split, because this is just going to create a Great Serbia. Do you expect a more peaceful Balkan then? Either they learn how to live like under Tito's ruling, or it won't get better.

And whoever thinks that they did not like each other back then is very misinformed. I come from there and my entire relatives/family have lived under Tito's ruling, and none of them would ever think of disliking Serbs, Croats, whatever there is.

Besides, you attack them for using the war, then you turn around and use the war to attack them! It doesn't help anything. The war doesn't justify Bosnia's expulsion, or Serbian guilt trips. There is a lot more history behind it than that. And I'm not going to simply watch Bosnia media on it - are you just trying to set up bias?
I attack them for using a war that would not help, and they knew it very well. What kind of a help is it to kill 8-9,000 Muslim males in Srebrenica over a few days? Is that a good way to get a hold of Bosnia? By military invention I mean defense, not oppression. When Macedonia and Slovenia got out of Yugoslavia, who touched them? Those bigoted Serbian leaders went there for 10 days. 10 days! In Bosnia they were for 3-4 years and slaughtered every innocent Muslim soul. Even Croats, whom Bosnians did nothing to at all, started killing Muslims. My family was driven out of their flat by Croats. Is this defense? Of course I want Bosnian military to defend it, and there are much better ways of defending than killing innocent people.

And while you're entire paragraph there rails against Serbs trying to split things apart, you're simply trying to ask for the reverse - incorporate the Serbs, whether they like it or not. How is that any solution? They have the right to determination, a right that the Bosnians also recognize. You can't argue against it unless you want to oppress the Serbs the same way they oppressed the Bosnians.
In Yugoslavia, there were republics. One for Serbs, one for Bosnians, and so forth. Just because many Serbs lived in Bosnia does not give them the right to steal a piece of Bosnian land. The land belongs to Bosnians, whether Bosnian Serbs or ethnic Bosnians. Nobody must split it. There are also Croats, then they would have just as much right to take 1/3 of Bosnia. So it would be nothing for ethnic Bosnians like me. Is this fair to you?

There are also many gay people in America. There are black people. There are Spanish, native Americans. Should we give them all a state of their own, not a part of USA any longer? Perhaps because they have the right for to their own government? It's nonsense. Blacks in the US have been there just as much as Serbs have been in Bosnia. What gives Serbs mre right to take 49% of Bosnia? Absolutely nothing. And if Serb Republic gets to split, then all the republics in Russia, China, in the maybe even USA (even though that's supposed to be a bit different), they would all be independent. Is this how we shall achieve peace. Definitely not. Bosnia is how it is. The Serb Republic was never meant to be a country (officially), therefore it would break all international standards by getting independent. The country gives equal rights to everybody, therefore it's just about getting the nationalists' minds settled, whether they are of Muslims or Serbs. Just accept that it's only going to be good if they start tolerating each other, which they can.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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2/20/2010 12:13:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/20/2010 10:44:44 AM, Mirza wrote:
And it would be nice with an edit button to correct some misspellings.

Yea, I agree. I officially decree that the reform party must rally for an edit button to be added!