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How would you classify John Locke?

comoncents
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2/27/2010 4:50:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
It is no telling that John Locke influenced heavily the government we have today.
But if we had him here today what would he say about what is going on?

How would you classify him?
Libertarian, classical liberal, what?

When he influenced "all men are created equal, did he really just man men and not women? (we know Jefferson did)

What would he think about women's rights, gay rights and freeing the blacks?
(the Founders would have scoffed at women having rights, they would have thought it an abomination to be gays, they would have freed the blacks at some point.)
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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2/27/2010 3:19:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/27/2010 4:50:56 AM, comoncents wrote:
What would he think about women's rights, gay rights and freeing the blacks?
(the Founders would have scoffed at women having rights, they would have thought it an abomination to be gays, they would have freed the blacks at some point.)

Woah, woah, woah. You're going to have to back up the first two statements.

At 2/27/2010 3:15:22 PM, Puck wrote:
Deceased.

... boom boom

Ba dum chshhhhhhh.
comoncents
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2/27/2010 7:56:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/27/2010 3:19:28 PM, Nags wrote:
At 2/27/2010 4:50:56 AM, comoncents wrote:
What would he think about women's rights, gay rights and freeing the blacks?
(the Founders would have scoffed at women having rights, they would have thought it an abomination to be gays, they would have freed the blacks at some point.)

Woah, woah, woah. You're going to have to back up the first two statements.

At 2/27/2010 3:15:22 PM, Puck wrote:
Deceased.

... boom boom

Ba dum chshhhhhhh.

Which statements.
Ragnar_Rahl
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2/27/2010 8:46:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
did he really just man men and not women? (we know Jefferson did)
Curiosity piqued, reference pl0x.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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2/27/2010 8:47:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/27/2010 7:56:18 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 2/27/2010 3:19:28 PM, Nags wrote:
At 2/27/2010 4:50:56 AM, comoncents wrote:
What would he think about women's rights, gay rights and freeing the blacks?
(the Founders would have scoffed at women having rights, they would have thought it an abomination to be gays, they would have freed the blacks at some point.)

Woah, woah, woah. You're going to have to back up the first two statements.
Which statements.

"the Founders would have scoffed at women having rights, they would have thought it an abomination to be gays"

What?
Reasoning
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2/27/2010 8:49:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/27/2010 8:44:32 PM, comoncents wrote:
Does anyone here really like Locke?

I consider myself a non-proviso Lockean in property rights.

"The Lockean Proviso is a portion of John Locke's labor theory of property which says that though individuals have a right to acquire private property from nature, that they must leave "enough and as good in common...to others." - Wikipedia[1]

I see no such need to leave "enough and as good in common...to others." That being said I am not an absolutist propertarian. But I have a more nuanced view.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
comoncents
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2/27/2010 8:54:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/27/2010 8:47:44 PM, Nags wrote:
At 2/27/2010 7:56:18 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 2/27/2010 3:19:28 PM, Nags wrote:
At 2/27/2010 4:50:56 AM, comoncents wrote:
What would he think about women's rights, gay rights and freeing the blacks?
(the Founders would have scoffed at women having rights, they would have thought it an abomination to be gays, they would have freed the blacks at some point.)

Woah, woah, woah. You're going to have to back up the first two statements.
Which statements.

"the Founders would have scoffed at women having rights,

John Adams received a letter from Abigail Adams trying to advocate for the men to remember the women when writing the Declaration Of Independence. John scoffed and sent a letter back telling her to shut it and realize it is the age of men.

Than when writing the declaration it said all Men are created equal.

Not men and women.
The women suffered just as much if not more than men did during the revolution.
But did not get anything but this idea of republican motherhood.

they would have thought it an abomination to be gays"


They would not have been able to comprehend such a thing at the time.
This part is my belief the first part is fact.
comoncents
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2/27/2010 8:57:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/27/2010 8:46:27 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
did he really just man men and not women? (we know Jefferson did)
Curiosity piqued, reference pl0x.

Not only Jefferson but all of them.
He did put pen to paper though.
Ragnar_Rahl
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2/27/2010 8:59:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Reference pl0x means what it sounds like.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
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2/27/2010 8:59:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
As in, source.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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2/27/2010 9:00:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/27/2010 8:54:30 PM, comoncents wrote:
John Adams received a letter from Abigail Adams trying to advocate for the men to remember the women when writing the Declaration Of Independence. John scoffed and sent a letter back telling her to shut it and realize it is the age of men.

Link?

Than when writing the declaration it said all Men are created equal.

Not men and women.

Men = mankind.

The women suffered just as much if not more than men did during the revolution.
But did not get anything but this idea of republican motherhood.

This isn't really a point.

They would not have been able to comprehend such a thing at the time.
This part is my belief the first part is fact.

Fair enough, although the first part isn't really a fact.
Reasoning
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2/27/2010 9:01:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/27/2010 9:00:24 PM, Nags wrote:
At 2/27/2010 8:54:30 PM, comoncents wrote:
John Adams received a letter from Abigail Adams trying to advocate for the men to remember the women when writing the Declaration Of Independence. John scoffed and sent a letter back telling her to shut it and realize it is the age of men.

Link?

I have heard it as well. I will see if I can find a link.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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2/27/2010 9:02:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/27/2010 9:00:24 PM, Nags wrote:
At 2/27/2010 8:54:30 PM, comoncents wrote:
John Adams received a letter from Abigail Adams trying to advocate for the men to remember the women when writing the Declaration Of Independence. John scoffed and sent a letter back telling her to shut it and realize it is the age of men.

Link?


ABIGAIL ADAMS TO JOHN ADAMS

"I long to hear that you have declared an independency. And, by the way, in the new code of laws which I suppose it will be necessary for you to make, I desire you would remember the ladies and be more generous and favorable to them than your ancestors.

"Do not put such unlimited power into the hands of the husbands.

"Remember, all men would be tyrants if they could. If particular care and attention is not paid to the ladies, we are determined to foment a rebellion, and will not hold ourselves bound by any laws in which we have no voice or representation.

"That your sex are naturally tyrannical is a truth so thoroughly established as to admit of no dispute; but such of you as wish to be happy willingly give up -- the harsh tide of master for the more tender and endearing one of friend.

"Why, then, not put it out of the power of the vicious and the lawless to use us with cruelty and indignity with impunity?

"Men of sense in all ages abhor those customs which treat us only as the (servants) of your sex; regard us then as being placed by Providence under your protection, and in imitation of the Supreme Being make use of that power only for our happiness."

APRIL 14, 1776
JOHN ADAMS TO ABIGAIL ADAMS

"As to your extraordinary code of laws, I cannot but laugh.

"We have been told that our struggle has loosened the bonds of government everywhere; that children and apprentices were disobedient; that schools and colleges were grown turbulent; that Indians slighted their guardians, and negroes grew insolent to their masters.

"But your letter was the first intimation that another tribe, more numerous and powerful than all the rest, were grown discontented.

"This is rather too coarse a compliment, but you are so saucy, I won't blot it out.

"Depend upon it, we know better than to repeal our masculine systems. Although they are in full force, you know they are little more than theory. We dare not exert our power in its full latitude. We are obliged to go fair and softly, and, in practice, you know we are the subjects.

"We have only the name of masters, and rather than give up this, which would completely subject us to the despotism of the petticoat, I hope General Washington and all our brave heroes would fight."

http://www.thelizlibrary.org...
comoncents
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2/27/2010 9:07:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/27/2010 8:59:34 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
As in, source.

It is in the words themselves.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal"

He meant what he wrote.
All MEN are created equal.

http://www.thelizlibrary.org...
http://www.ushistory.org...
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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2/27/2010 9:10:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/27/2010 9:01:09 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 2/27/2010 9:00:24 PM, Nags wrote:
Men = mankind.


Not when written there.

Proof?

Besides, where does the Constitution ever say "men" or "man"? I just took a look at it, and didn't say anything. In the Declaration of Independence, yes, but not in the Constitution.
comoncents
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2/27/2010 9:14:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/27/2010 9:10:30 PM, Nags wrote:
At 2/27/2010 9:01:09 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 2/27/2010 9:00:24 PM, Nags wrote:
Men = mankind.


Not when written there.

Proof?


You would have to know American history.
At the time that is how it was.
This letter from Adams to Adams should be proof enough on how the stance was between men's rights and women's.

When they wrote those words they meant it as man and not women.
In that day a woman gave up her rights the day she got married.
That is, in theory, a reason why they changed their last names to the the husbands.

Besides, where does the Constitution ever say "men" or "man"? I just took a look at it, and didn't say anything. In the Declaration of Independence, yes, but not in the Constitution.

I did not say the constitution.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/27/2010 9:17:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/27/2010 9:07:49 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 2/27/2010 8:59:34 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
As in, source.

It is in the words themselves.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal"

He meant what he wrote.
All MEN are created equal.
Lots of writers from once upon a time would have said "men." "People" makes you sound like some kind of socialist.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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2/27/2010 9:18:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/27/2010 9:14:35 PM, comoncents wrote:
You would have to know American history.
At the time that is how it was.
This letter from Adams to Adams should be proof enough on how the stance was between men's rights and women's.

When they wrote those words they meant it as man and not women.

I'm not going to believe you just because. Some references would be nice.

In that day a woman gave up her rights the day she got married.
That is, in theory, a reason why they changed their last names to the the husbands.

I guess...

Besides, where does the Constitution ever say "men" or "man"? I just took a look at it, and didn't say anything. In the Declaration of Independence, yes, but not in the Constitution.

I did not say the constitution.

K
comoncents
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2/27/2010 9:19:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/27/2010 9:17:16 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/27/2010 9:07:49 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 2/27/2010 8:59:34 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
As in, source.

It is in the words themselves.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal"

He meant what he wrote.
All MEN are created equal.
Lots of writers from once upon a time would have said "men." "People" makes you sound like some kind of socialist.

But when written in that day, they meant MEN not anything else.
Xer
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2/27/2010 9:19:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/27/2010 8:59:21 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Reference pl0x means what it sounds like.

Pl0x doesn't sound like please. Nor does plox.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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2/27/2010 9:49:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/27/2010 9:19:41 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 2/27/2010 9:17:16 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/27/2010 9:07:49 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 2/27/2010 8:59:34 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
As in, source.

It is in the words themselves.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal"

He meant what he wrote.
All MEN are created equal.
Lots of writers from once upon a time would have said "men." "People" makes you sound like some kind of socialist.

But when written in that day, they meant MEN not anything else.

Reference pl0x?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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2/27/2010 9:54:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/27/2010 9:52:54 PM, Koopin wrote:
The real question is how would you describe Jack Shepard?

Part of a really crappy show.