Total Posts:127|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Israel Vs. Hamas

Seido
Posts: 77
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/20/2014 11:18:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
What are your opinions in regard to the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza? Who do you side with? What do you think both sides should do?

I personally side with Israel. I firmly believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own, so long as some changes to their constitutions and charters are made. However, I am staunchly against Hamas. They are a terrorist organization, were elected within Gaza despite an agreement with Israel to not elect them, have been launching rockets at civilian targets, and have allocated their funds and energy to harming Israel as opposed to helping their own people in Gaza. I wish that Israel would be more cautious with their strikes against Hamas, and that they would use special forces more often against them, but believe that they have the right to defend themselves against these terrorists.
YYW
Posts: 36,423
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 12:00:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 11:18:21 PM, Seido wrote:
What are your opinions in regard to the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza? Who do you side with? What do you think both sides should do?

I personally side with Israel. I firmly believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own, so long as some changes to their constitutions and charters are made. However, I am staunchly against Hamas. They are a terrorist organization, were elected within Gaza despite an agreement with Israel to not elect them, have been launching rockets at civilian targets, and have allocated their funds and energy to harming Israel as opposed to helping their own people in Gaza. I wish that Israel would be more cautious with their strikes against Hamas, and that they would use special forces more often against them, but believe that they have the right to defend themselves against these terrorists.

I side with Israel against Hamas, but I object to a two state solution. I think the only way that Palestinians are ever going to have the kind of lives that are decent by western standards is the entire area controlled by the Palestinian authority is absorbed into Israel. I also think that Palestinians who are not members of Hamas should have the full rights of Israeli citizens.
Tsar of DDO
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 12:08:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The loss of civilians is horrific. Nobody should question that. However, the blame for the conflict currently lies on the hands of Hamas, who are a pathetic excuse for an organisation that is supposed to be helping its people. That they dare constantly fire rockets into neighbouring territory, knowing it will eventually result in deaths and military retaliation, to thereafter using innocent humans as shields and PR, is disgusting, immoral, and justifies Israel in blowing each and every of the Hamas fighters up to dust pieces.

Israel should do more to avoid civilian casualties, but to think that because civilians are dying that a country and its people should do nothing about constant aggression is pathetic.
Seido
Posts: 77
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 12:11:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 12:00:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/20/2014 11:18:21 PM, Seido wrote:
What are your opinions in regard to the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza? Who do you side with? What do you think both sides should do?

I personally side with Israel. I firmly believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own, so long as some changes to their constitutions and charters are made. However, I am staunchly against Hamas. They are a terrorist organization, were elected within Gaza despite an agreement with Israel to not elect them, have been launching rockets at civilian targets, and have allocated their funds and energy to harming Israel as opposed to helping their own people in Gaza. I wish that Israel would be more cautious with their strikes against Hamas, and that they would use special forces more often against them, but believe that they have the right to defend themselves against these terrorists.

I side with Israel against Hamas, but I object to a two state solution. I think the only way that Palestinians are ever going to have the kind of lives that are decent by western standards is the entire area controlled by the Palestinian authority is absorbed into Israel. I also think that Palestinians who are not members of Hamas should have the full rights of Israeli citizens.

Is it really fair for us to decide that they can't have their own state though? I agree with you in regard to Hamas and allowing Palestinian citizens to become Israeli citizens, but shouldn't they have the right to decide whether they want to join Israel or form their own state? Then again, I suppose that Israel could be threatened by a Palestinian state should such a thing be formed using some of the current language within the charters and constitutions of the PLO and Fatah.
YYW
Posts: 36,423
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 12:17:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 12:11:48 AM, Seido wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:00:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/20/2014 11:18:21 PM, Seido wrote:
What are your opinions in regard to the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza? Who do you side with? What do you think both sides should do?

I personally side with Israel. I firmly believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own, so long as some changes to their constitutions and charters are made. However, I am staunchly against Hamas. They are a terrorist organization, were elected within Gaza despite an agreement with Israel to not elect them, have been launching rockets at civilian targets, and have allocated their funds and energy to harming Israel as opposed to helping their own people in Gaza. I wish that Israel would be more cautious with their strikes against Hamas, and that they would use special forces more often against them, but believe that they have the right to defend themselves against these terrorists.

I side with Israel against Hamas, but I object to a two state solution. I think the only way that Palestinians are ever going to have the kind of lives that are decent by western standards is the entire area controlled by the Palestinian authority is absorbed into Israel. I also think that Palestinians who are not members of Hamas should have the full rights of Israeli citizens.

Is it really fair for us to decide that they can't have their own state though?

Yes, because by allowing Palestinians to rule themselves, they are inheriting the leadership infrastructure that has failed to purge Palestine of Hamas up until this point. That condemns all innocent Palestinian civilians to a life of near third world existence, because the PA doesn't care about what's best for Palestinians. It cares only for making it easier for Hamas to receive rockets from Iran, to launch into Israel.

I agree with you in regard to Hamas and allowing Palestinian citizens to become Israeli citizens, but shouldn't they have the right to decide whether they want to join Israel or form their own state?

No, because of the incredibly dangerous precedent that sets for the international political order.

Then again, I suppose that Israel could be threatened by a Palestinian state should such a thing be formed using some of the current language within the charters and constitutions of the PLO and Fatah.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,423
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 12:17:01 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 12:11:48 AM, Seido wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:00:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/20/2014 11:18:21 PM, Seido wrote:
What are your opinions in regard to the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza? Who do you side with? What do you think both sides should do?

I personally side with Israel. I firmly believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own, so long as some changes to their constitutions and charters are made. However, I am staunchly against Hamas. They are a terrorist organization, were elected within Gaza despite an agreement with Israel to not elect them, have been launching rockets at civilian targets, and have allocated their funds and energy to harming Israel as opposed to helping their own people in Gaza. I wish that Israel would be more cautious with their strikes against Hamas, and that they would use special forces more often against them, but believe that they have the right to defend themselves against these terrorists.

I side with Israel against Hamas, but I object to a two state solution. I think the only way that Palestinians are ever going to have the kind of lives that are decent by western standards is the entire area controlled by the Palestinian authority is absorbed into Israel. I also think that Palestinians who are not members of Hamas should have the full rights of Israeli citizens.

Is it really fair for us to decide that they can't have their own state though?

Yes, because by allowing Palestinians to rule themselves, they are inheriting the leadership infrastructure that has failed to purge Palestine of Hamas up until this point. That condemns all innocent Palestinian civilians to a life of near third world existence, because the PA doesn't care about what's best for Palestinians. It cares only for making it easier for Hamas to receive rockets from Iran, to launch into Israel.

I agree with you in regard to Hamas and allowing Palestinian citizens to become Israeli citizens, but shouldn't they have the right to decide whether they want to join Israel or form their own state?

No, because of the incredibly dangerous precedent that sets for the international political order.

Then again, I suppose that Israel could be threatened by a Palestinian state should such a thing be formed using some of the current language within the charters and constitutions of the PLO and Fatah.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,423
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 12:18:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 12:08:28 AM, Mirza wrote:
The loss of civilians is horrific. Nobody should question that. However, the blame for the conflict currently lies on the hands of Hamas, who are a pathetic excuse for an organisation that is supposed to be helping its people. That they dare constantly fire rockets into neighbouring territory, knowing it will eventually result in deaths and military retaliation, to thereafter using innocent humans as shields and PR, is disgusting, immoral, and justifies Israel in blowing each and every of the Hamas fighters up to dust pieces.

Israel should do more to avoid civilian casualties, but to think that because civilians are dying that a country and its people should do nothing about constant aggression is pathetic.

That's what the ground incursion is about. It's more messy, but less likely to result in mass civilian casualties than carpet bombing the Gaza Strip and more likely to actually kill members of Hamas -which should be Israel's principal priority.
Tsar of DDO
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 12:23:44 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 12:18:25 AM, YYW wrote:
That's what the ground incursion is about. It's more messy, but less likely to result in mass civilian casualties than carpet bombing the Gaza Strip and more likely to actually kill members of Hamas -which should be Israel's principal priority.
Indeed. Nonetheless, inserting special forces should have been considered earlier. Mistake on the part of Israel.

With that said, I wonder if it is comical or sad that Muslim leaders' courage only extends to the point of condemning Israel's actions, yet doing nothing about it, ever? If they should do anything, it is to help eradicate Hamas. It is, however, interesting how the idea of unity and brotherhood among the people and countries in those areas is so pathetically weak, yet some people still think it is anything more than a thing you'd daydream about.
Seido
Posts: 77
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 12:24:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 12:17:01 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:11:48 AM, Seido wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:00:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/20/2014 11:18:21 PM, Seido wrote:
What are your opinions in regard to the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza? Who do you side with? What do you think both sides should do?

I personally side with Israel. I firmly believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own, so long as some changes to their constitutions and charters are made. However, I am staunchly against Hamas. They are a terrorist organization, were elected within Gaza despite an agreement with Israel to not elect them, have been launching rockets at civilian targets, and have allocated their funds and energy to harming Israel as opposed to helping their own people in Gaza. I wish that Israel would be more cautious with their strikes against Hamas, and that they would use special forces more often against them, but believe that they have the right to defend themselves against these terrorists.

I side with Israel against Hamas, but I object to a two state solution. I think the only way that Palestinians are ever going to have the kind of lives that are decent by western standards is the entire area controlled by the Palestinian authority is absorbed into Israel. I also think that Palestinians who are not members of Hamas should have the full rights of Israeli citizens.

Is it really fair for us to decide that they can't have their own state though?

Yes, because by allowing Palestinians to rule themselves, they are inheriting the leadership infrastructure that has failed to purge Palestine of Hamas up until this point. That condemns all innocent Palestinian civilians to a life of near third world existence, because the PA doesn't care about what's best for Palestinians. It cares only for making it easier for Hamas to receive rockets from Iran, to launch into Israel.

I agree with you in regard to Hamas and allowing Palestinian citizens to become Israeli citizens, but shouldn't they have the right to decide whether they want to join Israel or form their own state?

No, because of the incredibly dangerous precedent that sets for the international political order.

Then again, I suppose that Israel could be threatened by a Palestinian state should such a thing be formed using some of the current language within the charters and constitutions of the PLO and Fatah.

But why should it be up to us, the western world, to decide how the Palestinians should live? Wouldn't it be wiser, particularly coming from the standpoint of the western belief in liberty and freedom, to let the Palestinians vote to decide whether or not they should be incorporated into Israel? And so far as I'm aware, the majority of the PA, particularly the ruling authority, Fatah, doesn't support Hamas.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 12:28:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Seido, Perhaps a Palestinian state could function in theory. However, a state must be founded on some ground principles that have deep roots. You cannot merely form a state with a wholly new constitution and expect things to have changed immediately. The mentality of people must be subject to change. Palestinians will have to reach the point where they see Israel as a legitimate country and not an enemy. Until then, a Palestinian state would likely not produce a good outcome.

Furthermore, it is possible to create entities akin to the model in Bosnia and Herzegovina, where the majority Palestinians have their own, and the Jews theirs, and create a balance of power internally this way. It would be similar to Palestinians simply gaining Israeli statehood and merging with everyone else, but have more territorial and political autonomy.
YYW
Posts: 36,423
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 12:30:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 12:24:13 AM, Seido wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:17:01 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:11:48 AM, Seido wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:00:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/20/2014 11:18:21 PM, Seido wrote:
What are your opinions in regard to the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza? Who do you side with? What do you think both sides should do?

I personally side with Israel. I firmly believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own, so long as some changes to their constitutions and charters are made. However, I am staunchly against Hamas. They are a terrorist organization, were elected within Gaza despite an agreement with Israel to not elect them, have been launching rockets at civilian targets, and have allocated their funds and energy to harming Israel as opposed to helping their own people in Gaza. I wish that Israel would be more cautious with their strikes against Hamas, and that they would use special forces more often against them, but believe that they have the right to defend themselves against these terrorists.

I side with Israel against Hamas, but I object to a two state solution. I think the only way that Palestinians are ever going to have the kind of lives that are decent by western standards is the entire area controlled by the Palestinian authority is absorbed into Israel. I also think that Palestinians who are not members of Hamas should have the full rights of Israeli citizens.

Is it really fair for us to decide that they can't have their own state though?

Yes, because by allowing Palestinians to rule themselves, they are inheriting the leadership infrastructure that has failed to purge Palestine of Hamas up until this point. That condemns all innocent Palestinian civilians to a life of near third world existence, because the PA doesn't care about what's best for Palestinians. It cares only for making it easier for Hamas to receive rockets from Iran, to launch into Israel.

I agree with you in regard to Hamas and allowing Palestinian citizens to become Israeli citizens, but shouldn't they have the right to decide whether they want to join Israel or form their own state?

No, because of the incredibly dangerous precedent that sets for the international political order.

Then again, I suppose that Israel could be threatened by a Palestinian state should such a thing be formed using some of the current language within the charters and constitutions of the PLO and Fatah.

But why should it be up to us, the western world, to decide how the Palestinians should live?

The reason I take issue with that question should be pretty clear: in order for any change to happen, the Palestinian people have to, themselves, buy into it. That the United States would be brokering the deal doesn't mean that Palestinians aren't deciding how they should live.

Wouldn't it be wiser, particularly coming from the standpoint of the western belief in liberty and freedom, to let the Palestinians vote to decide whether or not they should be incorporated into Israel?

No, because it won't be Palestinians who make that choice, but Hamas and the Palestinian Authority, who will chose a path that will lead to their self preservation rather than what is best for Palestinian civilians. What must occur is what a rational Palestinian citizen would chose from an array of options when acting in his own self interest, and that choice is to become a part of Israel. The radical Jews on the border who are erecting illegal settlements can get over themselves. It's time to make peace with the neighbors, and welcome them home.
Tsar of DDO
ChosenWolff
Posts: 3,361
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 12:38:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 11:18:21 PM, Seido wrote:
What are your opinions in regard to the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza?
Hamas, stop sending bombs. It doesn't help anything.
Who do you side with? What do you think both sides should do?
Israel should recognize the Gaza authority, but not the Tel Aviv area of Palestine. I side with Hezbollah Lebanon

I personally side with Israel.
For the most part, I do as well.
I firmly believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own, so long as some changes to their constitutions and charters are made.
What about a lack of farms and water? Palestine has all of the fresh water in Israel.
However, I am staunchly against Hamas.
They remind me of the KKK in the way they dress.
They are a terrorist organization,
What about the political wing?
were elected within Gaza despite an agreement with Israel to not elect them, have been launching rockets at civilian targets,
I like to be fair in these situations, and will affirm that many of Israels air strikes have been careless and wreckless.
and have allocated their funds and energy to harming Israel as opposed to helping their own people in Gaza.
It's a slanted situation. The actual body of Hamas, in theory, isn't actually that evil. It is like the GOP. Motivated by radical elements and moderate elements masquerading for the same cause.
I wish that Israel would be more cautious with their strikes against Hamas,
Israel has killed an extreme amount of civilians over the past decade. It isn't even excusable at this point.
and that they would use special forces more often against them,
Costly and usually results in violent escalation. The Palestine authority has a policy of shoot first if they catch Israel in their borders.
but believe that they have the right to defend themselves against these terrorists.
Meh?
How about NO elections?

#onlyonedeb8
YYW
Posts: 36,423
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 12:42:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 12:24:13 AM, Seido wrote:

Btw. this is just an FYI because you seem like a nice kid... ChosenWolff is probably not someone who is worth having a conversation with. I don't think he means to be quite.. well, the way he is, but I have never known anyone who interacted with him in a pleasant or productive way. The fact that he claims to support Hamas should tell you all you need to know about him.

Good luck.
Tsar of DDO
Seido
Posts: 77
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 12:43:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Wouldn't it be easiest to conduct a vote of everyone that lives in Palestine, and the majority gets to decide whether the West Bank joins Israel or not? In regard to what Mirza said, Palestine is founded on ideals, many of which are listed in their constitutions and charter. They also do recognize Israel, at least as of the agreement that they made a while ago. Some of the lines in their charters and constitution though are a bit anti-Israel.
YYW
Posts: 36,423
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 12:44:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 12:43:11 AM, Seido wrote:
Wouldn't it be easiest to conduct a vote of everyone that lives in Palestine, and the majority gets to decide whether the West Bank joins Israel or not? In regard to what Mirza said, Palestine is founded on ideals, many of which are listed in their constitutions and charter. They also do recognize Israel, at least as of the agreement that they made a while ago. Some of the lines in their charters and constitution though are a bit anti-Israel.

I cannot see how a vote of that kind could occur without people being killed by Hamas.
Tsar of DDO
Seido
Posts: 77
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 12:46:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 12:44:38 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:43:11 AM, Seido wrote:
Wouldn't it be easiest to conduct a vote of everyone that lives in Palestine, and the majority gets to decide whether the West Bank joins Israel or not? In regard to what Mirza said, Palestine is founded on ideals, many of which are listed in their constitutions and charter. They also do recognize Israel, at least as of the agreement that they made a while ago. Some of the lines in their charters and constitution though are a bit anti-Israel.

I cannot see how a vote of that kind could occur without people being killed by Hamas.

I mean within the West Bank. Hamas is not strongly located within the West Bank, and wouldn't have the ability to do much of anything. Any time that I refer to the Palestinian Authority or creating a Palestinian state, I am talking strictly about the West Bank. Gaza must first get rid of Hamas before it can even be dealt with.
YYW
Posts: 36,423
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 12:51:36 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 12:46:59 AM, Seido wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:44:38 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:43:11 AM, Seido wrote:
Wouldn't it be easiest to conduct a vote of everyone that lives in Palestine, and the majority gets to decide whether the West Bank joins Israel or not? In regard to what Mirza said, Palestine is founded on ideals, many of which are listed in their constitutions and charter. They also do recognize Israel, at least as of the agreement that they made a while ago. Some of the lines in their charters and constitution though are a bit anti-Israel.

I cannot see how a vote of that kind could occur without people being killed by Hamas.

I mean within the West Bank. Hamas is not strongly located within the West Bank, and wouldn't have the ability to do much of anything. Any time that I refer to the Palestinian Authority or creating a Palestinian state, I am talking strictly about the West Bank. Gaza must first get rid of Hamas before it can even be dealt with.

I am afraid that they would chose to rule themselves, which would be very much not in their best interest. As Mizra said, the existence of a Palestinian state legitimizes both statehood being merited by ethnic identity (which I take huge issue with) as well as legitimizes Israel's being a Jewish state first (which I also take huge issue with).

On a pragmatic level, a Palestinian state is going to become a safe haven and base of operation for Hamas and Hamas's compatriots. That is unacceptable, because it jeopardizes Israel's security as surely as it -just as in the status quo- puts innocent Palestinians in the middle of Hamas's aggression and Israel's legitimate self defense.

A one state solution grants Palestinian citizens the full rights of Israeli citizens, while ensures that Israel will be able to hold Hamas at bay.
Tsar of DDO
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 12:56:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 12:00:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/20/2014 11:18:21 PM, Seido wrote:
What are your opinions in regard to the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza? Who do you side with? What do you think both sides should do?

I personally side with Israel. I firmly believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own, so long as some changes to their constitutions and charters are made. However, I am staunchly against Hamas. They are a terrorist organization, were elected within Gaza despite an agreement with Israel to not elect them, have been launching rockets at civilian targets, and have allocated their funds and energy to harming Israel as opposed to helping their own people in Gaza. I wish that Israel would be more cautious with their strikes against Hamas, and that they would use special forces more often against them, but believe that they have the right to defend themselves against these terrorists.

I side with Israel against Hamas, but I object to a two state solution. I think the only way that Palestinians are ever going to have the kind of lives that are decent by western standards is the entire area controlled by the Palestinian authority is absorbed into Israel. I also think that Palestinians who are not members of Hamas should have the full rights of Israeli citizens.

Would not then Israel cease to be a "Jewish" state?
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
Seido
Posts: 77
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 12:57:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 12:38:04 AM, ChosenWolff wrote:
At 7/20/2014 11:18:21 PM, Seido wrote:
What are your opinions in regard to the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza?
Hamas, stop sending bombs. It doesn't help anything.
Who do you side with? What do you think both sides should do?
Israel should recognize the Gaza authority, but not the Tel Aviv area of Palestine. I side with Hezbollah Lebanon

I personally side with Israel.
For the most part, I do as well.
I firmly believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own, so long as some changes to their constitutions and charters are made.
What about a lack of farms and water? Palestine has all of the fresh water in Israel.
However, I am staunchly against Hamas.
They remind me of the KKK in the way they dress.
They are a terrorist organization,
What about the political wing?
were elected within Gaza despite an agreement with Israel to not elect them, have been launching rockets at civilian targets,
I like to be fair in these situations, and will affirm that many of Israels air strikes have been careless and wreckless.
and have allocated their funds and energy to harming Israel as opposed to helping their own people in Gaza.
It's a slanted situation. The actual body of Hamas, in theory, isn't actually that evil. It is like the GOP. Motivated by radical elements and moderate elements masquerading for the same cause.
I wish that Israel would be more cautious with their strikes against Hamas,
Israel has killed an extreme amount of civilians over the past decade. It isn't even excusable at this point.
and that they would use special forces more often against them,
Costly and usually results in violent escalation. The Palestine authority has a policy of shoot first if they catch Israel in their borders.
but believe that they have the right to defend themselves against these terrorists.
Meh?

Recognize the Gazan authority? You mean Hamas, a terrorist organization that was elected illegally? Their election within Gaza directly violated the agreement Israel made with the Palestinians only shortly before 2006. In regard to Palestine having their own state, it's up to them. The West Bank should have a vote where every individual votes to decide the fate of the West Bank. If the Palestinians wish for the West Bank to become its own nation despite not having the resources to survive, that's their fault. As for their political wing, that doesn't matter much. They're still an organization that kills civilians, illegally has control over Gaza, and pours its funds and energy into further endangering civilians as opposed to protecting them. Whether part of their group is peaceful or not doesn't matter, as a large portion of it is still violent and is supported by the peaceful regime. And the GOP comparison is a horrible faulty comparison. Last time I checked, the republican party doesn't condone, nor take part in firing rockets upon civilian targets. In regard to Israel killing civilians, we must be practical. Hamas is firing rockets into Israel and is endangering civilians and retains the right to respond with force. There is only so much that Israel can do without putting either Palestinians at risk, or their own people at risk. Bombing, special forces, and a full ground invasion are really the only three practical routes, all of which endanger civilian lives. It sucks, and Israel should try a bit harder to make sure that the civilians have a chance to get out of harms way, but otherwise, it would simply be silly to say that Israel doesn't have the right to respond to Hamas' attacks. And yes, a special forces attack would be costly, but it often works. Look at what the US did with Osama. It would likely ensure a much lower civilian casualty rate, a higher chance to eliminate Palestinian militants, and would help bring this conflict to an end.
YYW
Posts: 36,423
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 1:00:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 12:56:55 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:00:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/20/2014 11:18:21 PM, Seido wrote:
What are your opinions in regard to the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza? Who do you side with? What do you think both sides should do?

I personally side with Israel. I firmly believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own, so long as some changes to their constitutions and charters are made. However, I am staunchly against Hamas. They are a terrorist organization, were elected within Gaza despite an agreement with Israel to not elect them, have been launching rockets at civilian targets, and have allocated their funds and energy to harming Israel as opposed to helping their own people in Gaza. I wish that Israel would be more cautious with their strikes against Hamas, and that they would use special forces more often against them, but believe that they have the right to defend themselves against these terrorists.

I side with Israel against Hamas, but I object to a two state solution. I think the only way that Palestinians are ever going to have the kind of lives that are decent by western standards is the entire area controlled by the Palestinian authority is absorbed into Israel. I also think that Palestinians who are not members of Hamas should have the full rights of Israeli citizens.

Would not then Israel cease to be a "Jewish" state?

If Israel and Palestine became one state, then Israel would not be a Jewish state, and that is best for Israelis as well as Palestinians.
Tsar of DDO
Seido
Posts: 77
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 1:01:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 12:51:36 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:46:59 AM, Seido wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:44:38 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:43:11 AM, Seido wrote:
Wouldn't it be easiest to conduct a vote of everyone that lives in Palestine, and the majority gets to decide whether the West Bank joins Israel or not? In regard to what Mirza said, Palestine is founded on ideals, many of which are listed in their constitutions and charter. They also do recognize Israel, at least as of the agreement that they made a while ago. Some of the lines in their charters and constitution though are a bit anti-Israel.

I cannot see how a vote of that kind could occur without people being killed by Hamas.

I mean within the West Bank. Hamas is not strongly located within the West Bank, and wouldn't have the ability to do much of anything. Any time that I refer to the Palestinian Authority or creating a Palestinian state, I am talking strictly about the West Bank. Gaza must first get rid of Hamas before it can even be dealt with.

I am afraid that they would chose to rule themselves, which would be very much not in their best interest. As Mizra said, the existence of a Palestinian state legitimizes both statehood being merited by ethnic identity (which I take huge issue with) as well as legitimizes Israel's being a Jewish state first (which I also take huge issue with).

On a pragmatic level, a Palestinian state is going to become a safe haven and base of operation for Hamas and Hamas's compatriots. That is unacceptable, because it jeopardizes Israel's security as surely as it -just as in the status quo- puts innocent Palestinians in the middle of Hamas's aggression and Israel's legitimate self defense.

A one state solution grants Palestinian citizens the full rights of Israeli citizens, while ensures that Israel will be able to hold Hamas at bay.

But shouldn't the Palestinians have the right to decide whether or not they wish to rule over themselves? It might not be in their best interests, but so long as they aren't harming Israel, the US, or our allies by harboring terrorists, or through direct confrontations, I fail to see where we really have the right to tell them what they can and cannot do. I fully agree with you that a Palestinian state likely wouldn't be within the best interests of the Palestinians, but they will always have the ability to try to become a part of Israel once again.
Seido
Posts: 77
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 1:02:48 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 1:00:18 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:56:55 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:00:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/20/2014 11:18:21 PM, Seido wrote:
What are your opinions in regard to the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza? Who do you side with? What do you think both sides should do?

I personally side with Israel. I firmly believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own, so long as some changes to their constitutions and charters are made. However, I am staunchly against Hamas. They are a terrorist organization, were elected within Gaza despite an agreement with Israel to not elect them, have been launching rockets at civilian targets, and have allocated their funds and energy to harming Israel as opposed to helping their own people in Gaza. I wish that Israel would be more cautious with their strikes against Hamas, and that they would use special forces more often against them, but believe that they have the right to defend themselves against these terrorists.

I side with Israel against Hamas, but I object to a two state solution. I think the only way that Palestinians are ever going to have the kind of lives that are decent by western standards is the entire area controlled by the Palestinian authority is absorbed into Israel. I also think that Palestinians who are not members of Hamas should have the full rights of Israeli citizens.

Would not then Israel cease to be a "Jewish" state?

If Israel and Palestine became one state, then Israel would not be a Jewish state, and that is best for Israelis as well as Palestinians.

So long as Israel lost its title as a Jewish state democratically and retained its western and democratic ideals in doing so, I more or less agree with you. On the other hand though, the main point of Israel was to provide a safe haven and a state for Jews, ethnically speaking, after the atrocities that they had been subjected to over the past few millennia.
bsh1
Posts: 27,504
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 1:03:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 1:00:18 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:56:55 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:00:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/20/2014 11:18:21 PM, Seido wrote:
What are your opinions in regard to the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza? Who do you side with? What do you think both sides should do?

I personally side with Israel. I firmly believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own, so long as some changes to their constitutions and charters are made. However, I am staunchly against Hamas. They are a terrorist organization, were elected within Gaza despite an agreement with Israel to not elect them, have been launching rockets at civilian targets, and have allocated their funds and energy to harming Israel as opposed to helping their own people in Gaza. I wish that Israel would be more cautious with their strikes against Hamas, and that they would use special forces more often against them, but believe that they have the right to defend themselves against these terrorists.

I side with Israel against Hamas, but I object to a two state solution. I think the only way that Palestinians are ever going to have the kind of lives that are decent by western standards is the entire area controlled by the Palestinian authority is absorbed into Israel. I also think that Palestinians who are not members of Hamas should have the full rights of Israeli citizens.

Would not then Israel cease to be a "Jewish" state?

If Israel and Palestine became one state, then Israel would not be a Jewish state, and that is best for Israelis as well as Palestinians.

Then it seems as if Israel might not as well have been created. The Israelis claim a right to exists--and I would argue that their claim is not just that Israel has a right to exist, but that it has a right to exist as a Jewish state. Merging it with Palestine would naturally assail this right that the Israelis have upheld they have.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
YYW
Posts: 36,423
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 1:03:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 1:01:00 AM, Seido wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:51:36 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:46:59 AM, Seido wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:44:38 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:43:11 AM, Seido wrote:
Wouldn't it be easiest to conduct a vote of everyone that lives in Palestine, and the majority gets to decide whether the West Bank joins Israel or not? In regard to what Mirza said, Palestine is founded on ideals, many of which are listed in their constitutions and charter. They also do recognize Israel, at least as of the agreement that they made a while ago. Some of the lines in their charters and constitution though are a bit anti-Israel.

I cannot see how a vote of that kind could occur without people being killed by Hamas.

I mean within the West Bank. Hamas is not strongly located within the West Bank, and wouldn't have the ability to do much of anything. Any time that I refer to the Palestinian Authority or creating a Palestinian state, I am talking strictly about the West Bank. Gaza must first get rid of Hamas before it can even be dealt with.

I am afraid that they would chose to rule themselves, which would be very much not in their best interest. As Mizra said, the existence of a Palestinian state legitimizes both statehood being merited by ethnic identity (which I take huge issue with) as well as legitimizes Israel's being a Jewish state first (which I also take huge issue with).

On a pragmatic level, a Palestinian state is going to become a safe haven and base of operation for Hamas and Hamas's compatriots. That is unacceptable, because it jeopardizes Israel's security as surely as it -just as in the status quo- puts innocent Palestinians in the middle of Hamas's aggression and Israel's legitimate self defense.

A one state solution grants Palestinian citizens the full rights of Israeli citizens, while ensures that Israel will be able to hold Hamas at bay.

But shouldn't the Palestinians have the right to decide whether or not they wish to rule over themselves?

Not if their deciding to rule themselves is against their best interest.

It might not be in their best interests, but so long as they aren't harming Israel, the US, or our allies by harboring terrorists, or through direct confrontations, I fail to see where we really have the right to tell them what they can and cannot do.

This might just be a philosophical difference, and it's usually where I get called an imperialist in discussions. I do not believe that people have a right to make decisions that will harm others and themselves. Allowing Palestine to rule itself is allowing it to hurt itself and Israel, I am never going to support that kind of an outcome.

I fully agree with you that a Palestinian state likely wouldn't be within the best interests of the Palestinians, but they will always have the ability to try to become a part of Israel once again.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,423
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 1:06:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 1:03:21 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/21/2014 1:00:18 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:56:55 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:00:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/20/2014 11:18:21 PM, Seido wrote:
What are your opinions in regard to the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza? Who do you side with? What do you think both sides should do?

I personally side with Israel. I firmly believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own, so long as some changes to their constitutions and charters are made. However, I am staunchly against Hamas. They are a terrorist organization, were elected within Gaza despite an agreement with Israel to not elect them, have been launching rockets at civilian targets, and have allocated their funds and energy to harming Israel as opposed to helping their own people in Gaza. I wish that Israel would be more cautious with their strikes against Hamas, and that they would use special forces more often against them, but believe that they have the right to defend themselves against these terrorists.

I side with Israel against Hamas, but I object to a two state solution. I think the only way that Palestinians are ever going to have the kind of lives that are decent by western standards is the entire area controlled by the Palestinian authority is absorbed into Israel. I also think that Palestinians who are not members of Hamas should have the full rights of Israeli citizens.

Would not then Israel cease to be a "Jewish" state?

If Israel and Palestine became one state, then Israel would not be a Jewish state, and that is best for Israelis as well as Palestinians.

Then it seems as if Israel might not as well have been created. The Israelis claim a right to exists--and I would argue that their claim is not just that Israel has a right to exist, but that it has a right to exist as a Jewish state. Merging it with Palestine would naturally assail this right that the Israelis have upheld they have.

You might be onto something, or not, but solving this problem doesn't require readjudicating history. It only requires that we make choices based on what the situation at hand is.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,423
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 1:07:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 1:02:48 AM, Seido wrote:
At 7/21/2014 1:00:18 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:56:55 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:00:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/20/2014 11:18:21 PM, Seido wrote:
What are your opinions in regard to the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza? Who do you side with? What do you think both sides should do?

I personally side with Israel. I firmly believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own, so long as some changes to their constitutions and charters are made. However, I am staunchly against Hamas. They are a terrorist organization, were elected within Gaza despite an agreement with Israel to not elect them, have been launching rockets at civilian targets, and have allocated their funds and energy to harming Israel as opposed to helping their own people in Gaza. I wish that Israel would be more cautious with their strikes against Hamas, and that they would use special forces more often against them, but believe that they have the right to defend themselves against these terrorists.

I side with Israel against Hamas, but I object to a two state solution. I think the only way that Palestinians are ever going to have the kind of lives that are decent by western standards is the entire area controlled by the Palestinian authority is absorbed into Israel. I also think that Palestinians who are not members of Hamas should have the full rights of Israeli citizens.

Would not then Israel cease to be a "Jewish" state?

If Israel and Palestine became one state, then Israel would not be a Jewish state, and that is best for Israelis as well as Palestinians.

So long as Israel lost its title as a Jewish state democratically and retained its western and democratic ideals in doing so, I more or less agree with you. On the other hand though, the main point of Israel was to provide a safe haven and a state for Jews, ethnically speaking, after the atrocities that they had been subjected to over the past few millennia.

You're right about what an objective was at one point in time. I don't think anyone is under the belief that Jews need protection from the Nazi's now.
Tsar of DDO
GOP
Posts: 453
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 1:10:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/20/2014 11:18:21 PM, Seido wrote:
What are your opinions in regard to the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza? Who do you side with? What do you think both sides should do?

My opinion is that Israel has a very good reason for using its military might against Hamas, and I side with them. I think Hamas should stop trying to attack them, and Israel should always be prepared to defend itself.

Read what comedian Bill Maher says about this issue; it pretty much sums up what I think about the issue: http://www.ijreview.com...
Seido
Posts: 77
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 1:12:37 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 1:07:50 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/21/2014 1:02:48 AM, Seido wrote:
At 7/21/2014 1:00:18 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:56:55 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 7/21/2014 12:00:24 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/20/2014 11:18:21 PM, Seido wrote:
What are your opinions in regard to the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza? Who do you side with? What do you think both sides should do?

I personally side with Israel. I firmly believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own, so long as some changes to their constitutions and charters are made. However, I am staunchly against Hamas. They are a terrorist organization, were elected within Gaza despite an agreement with Israel to not elect them, have been launching rockets at civilian targets, and have allocated their funds and energy to harming Israel as opposed to helping their own people in Gaza. I wish that Israel would be more cautious with their strikes against Hamas, and that they would use special forces more often against them, but believe that they have the right to defend themselves against these terrorists.

I side with Israel against Hamas, but I object to a two state solution. I think the only way that Palestinians are ever going to have the kind of lives that are decent by western standards is the entire area controlled by the Palestinian authority is absorbed into Israel. I also think that Palestinians who are not members of Hamas should have the full rights of Israeli citizens.

Would not then Israel cease to be a "Jewish" state?

If Israel and Palestine became one state, then Israel would not be a Jewish state, and that is best for Israelis as well as Palestinians.

So long as Israel lost its title as a Jewish state democratically and retained its western and democratic ideals in doing so, I more or less agree with you. On the other hand though, the main point of Israel was to provide a safe haven and a state for Jews, ethnically speaking, after the atrocities that they had been subjected to over the past few millennia.

You're right about what an objective was at one point in time. I don't think anyone is under the belief that Jews need protection from the Nazi's now.

To be fair, antisemitism is still pretty rampant throughout the world, particularly within the Middle East.

And in regard to doing something against their own interests, I suppose we might just differ on that belief system. If Palestine's founding harmed others, I'd agree with you, but so long as Palestine's founding doesn't cause harm to anyone but itself, I don't really see where its our right to step in and say they can't have their own state. I will concede though, particularly with a lot of the ideals that the Fatah and PLO were founded on do pose a threat to Israel, and if they aren't changed, Palestine would have a very high chance of becoming a threat. If that was to occur though, then we could step in and say that they can't have their own state.
Seido
Posts: 77
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/21/2014 1:13:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 1:10:15 AM, GOP wrote:
At 7/20/2014 11:18:21 PM, Seido wrote:
What are your opinions in regard to the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza? Who do you side with? What do you think both sides should do?

My opinion is that Israel has a very good reason for using its military might against Hamas, and I side with them. I think Hamas should stop trying to attack them, and Israel should always be prepared to defend itself.

Read what comedian Bill Maher says about this issue; it pretty much sums up what I think about the issue: http://www.ijreview.com...

Lol, yeah, I saw that a few days ago. I watch Bill Maher every week. Gotta love him.