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Israel and Hamas: A More Nuanced Look

HPWKA
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7/21/2014 1:05:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is in response to an earlier thread, which had some predictable and extremely shallow discussion on the recent Israel/Palestinian conflict. I broke off into a new thread because (i) I hate picking it up after 30 posts or so, and (ii) the thread broke off into a different sub-topic. My points are as follows.

Yes Hamas is firing rockets, yes we can all agree this isn't ideal, but a few things need to be considered when discussing this topic.

(i) Why is Hamas firing these rockets? This latest flareup between Israel and Hamas began around June, in the context of the abduction of the Israeli-teens in the occupied West Bank. Israel claimed Hamas was responsible (despite presenting no evidence), and proceeded to invade the West Bank, capturing 500 Palestinians without charge (many of whom were Hamas members of the internationally recognized Palestinian Unity Government), damaging civilian infrastructure, and killing around 18 Palestinians during this time span.

Heavy Hamas rocket-fire began in response, and Hamas's conditions for ending their barrage have been consistent. They want Israel to release the Palestinian prisoners and ease the blockade on Gaza. These are reasonable conditions.

(ii) Do Hamas Rockets pose any threat, and are they legally/morally justified?. Hamas has fired thousands of rockets/projectiles, and killed two people. Contrary to what US media would have us believe, Israel is not facing a significant threat to its security.
International Law is clear that peoples (Palestinians) subject to alien occupation by another peoples (what Israel is defined as) have the right to physically resist the occupation. However, IL is also clear that the targeting of civilians is nearly always impermissible (which Hamas rocket attacks do). On balance, Hamas's justification is a grey-area.

(iii) Is Israel's response morally/legally justified? In response to Hamas's rocket-attacks, Israel has now killed about 500 Palestinians, 70-80% of which were clearly civilians (UN). Israel claims the large number of civilian casualties is due to Hamas's use of "human-shields" (intentionally/forcibly surrounding their rocket-launchers with civilians). They also claim that they are using "advanced warning systems", to help reduce casualties, but that Palestinians often don't listen/evacuate a dangerous area. There are a few problems with these protests.

Firstly, many of Israel airstrikes/raids haven't even targeted specific Hamas weapons/rockets. Dozens of Palestinians have been killed in seemingly bizarre instances, where Israel drops a bomb on a cafe, a wide-open beach, a highway, etc.. instances where there was no threat of a Hamas attack, or evidence of a Hamas presence at all. Phone-call/flyer warnings are not only almost non-existent in these circumstances, but aren't any sort of justification regardless.

Secondly, many of Israel's strikes have destroyed homes/families, simply for being associated with Hamas. IE, a cousin of a family is suspected of being in Hamas, so all related houses are now potentially targets for full-scale bombing. This is commonly referred to as "collective punishment", and is completely illegal/morally reprehensible. Many of these situations entail the use of "early-warnings" by Israel, though once again, such warnings don't justify the impending destruction. Furthermore, the UN/Human Rights Organizations have documented numerous cases where Israel's "warning-shot" on the roof has killed civilians.

Thirdly, in the case where Israel bombs a location they suspect of containing Hamas-rocket-launch sites/operatives, but which also contains a large amount of civilians. No investigation has been launched yet, but Israel's protest about Hamas using "human-shields" is suspect for the following reason. Israel attempted to use this justification in the last major Gaza-War, and when the UN and Human Rights Organizations investigated, they found "no consistent use" of human-shields by Hamas.

The last major issue I'd like to highlight is the issue of proportionality. In essence, Israel is obligated under International Law, to ensure their military response (assuming its justified, which according to the above, it almost never is) is directly in proportion to the threat they are facing. IE, if I flick a rubber-band at you, you aren't allowed to blow up my house.

Since its clear Hamas poses almost ZERO threat to Israel, its equally clear that Israel's military response has disregarded proportionality, meaning, the few times Israel actually has a legitimate/legal military target (house full of Hamas rocket-launchers/no civilians or proven human shields), its response ends up being completely illegal/immoral/unjustified.

This is the conflict as it stands today. The UN is contemplating Israel's guilt for war-crimes (they have the same info I presented above), and of course, everyone condemns Hamas's continued rocket-attacks. I just wanted to put this conflict in the proper perspective, as I felt like the previous thread had a CNN-like superficial glaze to it, lacking in any real substantive/critical dialogue.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
YYW
Posts: 36,243
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7/21/2014 3:44:43 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 1:05:27 PM, HPWKA wrote:
This is in response to an earlier thread, which had some predictable and extremely shallow discussion on the recent Israel/Palestinian conflict. I broke off into a new thread because (i) I hate picking it up after 30 posts or so, and (ii) the thread broke off into a different sub-topic. My points are as follows.

Yes Hamas is firing rockets, yes we can all agree this isn't ideal, but a few things need to be considered when discussing this topic.

(i) Why is Hamas firing these rockets? This latest flareup between Israel and Hamas began around June, in the context of the abduction of the Israeli-teens in the occupied West Bank. Israel claimed Hamas was responsible (despite presenting no evidence), and proceeded to invade the West Bank, capturing 500 Palestinians without charge (many of whom were Hamas members of the internationally recognized Palestinian Unity Government), damaging civilian infrastructure, and killing around 18 Palestinians during this time span.

Heavy Hamas rocket-fire began in response, and Hamas's conditions for ending their barrage have been consistent. They want Israel to release the Palestinian prisoners and ease the blockade on Gaza. These are reasonable conditions.

Hamas is firing rockets at civilians because they are a terrorist organization, devoid of all political legitimacy, whose sole objective is to kill Jews. Hamas has no interest in peace, just as they have no interest in coexistence with Israel. As long as Hamas exists, its members will do everything they can to kill Israelis -specifically Israeli civilians- as a means of pursuing its religious and political objectives.

(ii) Do Hamas Rockets pose any threat, and are they legally/morally justified?. Hamas has fired thousands of rockets/projectiles, and killed two people. Contrary to what US media would have us believe, Israel is not facing a significant threat to its security.
International Law is clear that peoples (Palestinians) subject to alien occupation by another peoples (what Israel is defined as) have the right to physically resist the occupation. However, IL is also clear that the targeting of civilians is nearly always impermissible (which Hamas rocket attacks do). On balance, Hamas's justification is a grey-area.

Hamas propagates a false narrative of victimhood meant to manipulate western media, and poison them against Israel. This is how Hamas has been shielded from international pressure to discontinue its terrorist activities, and to stop putting innocent Palestinians in harm's way.

The state of existence that Hamas and the Palestinian Authority have allowed Palestinians to live in is tragic, deplorable and nothing less than a moral outrage all of humanity because they place innocent people (both Palestinians and Israelis) in harms way, if not outrightly targeting them (in the case of Israelis) to being complicit in their death (Palestinians).

Hamas has no justification, no legitimacy and it is a moral tragedy that anyone sympathizes with their cause in any way.

(iii) Is Israel's response morally/legally justified? In response to Hamas's rocket-attacks, Israel has now killed about 500 Palestinians, 70-80% of which were clearly civilians (UN). Israel claims the large number of civilian casualties is due to Hamas's use of "human-shields" (intentionally/forcibly surrounding their rocket-launchers with civilians). They also claim that they are using "advanced warning systems", to help reduce casualties, but that Palestinians often don't listen/evacuate a dangerous area. There are a few problems with these protests.

Firstly, many of Israel airstrikes/raids haven't even targeted specific Hamas weapons/rockets. Dozens of Palestinians have been killed in seemingly bizarre instances, where Israel drops a bomb on a cafe, a wide-open beach, a highway, etc.. instances where there was no threat of a Hamas attack, or evidence of a Hamas presence at all. Phone-call/flyer warnings are not only almost non-existent in these circumstances, but aren't any sort of justification regardless.

Secondly, many of Israel's strikes have destroyed homes/families, simply for being associated with Hamas. IE, a cousin of a family is suspected of being in Hamas, so all related houses are now potentially targets for full-scale bombing. This is commonly referred to as "collective punishment", and is completely illegal/morally reprehensible. Many of these situations entail the use of "early-warnings" by Israel, though once again, such warnings don't justify the impending destruction. Furthermore, the UN/Human Rights Organizations have documented numerous cases where Israel's "warning-shot" on the roof has killed civilians.

Thirdly, in the case where Israel bombs a location they suspect of containing Hamas-rocket-launch sites/operatives, but which also contains a large amount of civilians. No investigation has been launched yet, but Israel's protest about Hamas using "human-shields" is suspect for the following reason. Israel attempted to use this justification in the last major Gaza-War, and when the UN and Human Rights Organizations investigated, they found "no consistent use" of human-shields by Hamas.

The last major issue I'd like to highlight is the issue of proportionality. In essence, Israel is obligated under International Law, to ensure their military response (assuming its justified, which according to the above, it almost never is) is directly in proportion to the threat they are facing. IE, if I flick a rubber-band at you, you aren't allowed to blow up my house.

Since its clear Hamas poses almost ZERO threat to Israel, its equally clear that Israel's military response has disregarded proportionality, meaning, the few times Israel actually has a legitimate/legal military target (house full of Hamas rocket-launchers/no civilians or proven human shields), its response ends up being completely illegal/immoral/unjustified.

This is the conflict as it stands today. The UN is contemplating Israel's guilt for war-crimes (they have the same info I presented above), and of course, everyone condemns Hamas's continued rocket-attacks. I just wanted to put this conflict in the proper perspective, as I felt like the previous thread had a CNN-like superficial glaze to it, lacking in any real substantive/critical dialogue.

Israel targets Hamas strongholds based on actionable intelligence it receives. Hamas is widely known to use schools, mosques and hospitals as munitions dumps and operations areas so that when Israel defends itself it looks as if Israel is targeting civilians. The fact that Hamas blurs the lines between civilians and combatants further abrogates any possibility of legitimacy, because they actively place innocent Palestinians in harms way to the indented effect of manipulating international media. It is disgusting, morally reprehensible and disgraceful in every way.
YYW
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7/21/2014 4:00:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
http://www.haaretz.com...

Top six reasons why I hate Hamas

6. Because Hamas is a cruel, fanatic, fundamentalist, reactionary, totalitarian, misogynistic, Holocaust denying, human rights-abusing, anti-democratic, anti-American, anti-Western, anti-Christian, anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic movement that embraces terror, sanctifies martyrdom, glorifies death and condemned the killing of Osama bin Laden.

5. Because Hamas abuses Palestinians, denies their civil rights, incites them to hatred, imposes Sharia law, bans books, stifles freedoms and oppresses women. Because it puts Palestinians in harm's way, uses them as human shields, views their suffering as a strategic asset and regards their death, the more the better, as a great victory for the cause.

4. Because, given a game-changing opportunity as the first truly if not wholly independent Palestinian regime with imperfect but nonetheless genuine autonomy, Hamas not only failed to carry out the first obligation of a government to work for the betterment of its people, but also squandered a chance to turn Gaza into a springboard for complete Palestinian independence in the West Bank and Gaza along the 1967 borders with East Jerusalem as its capital.

If Hamas had devoted the eight years that it has been in power since Israel"s disengagement to building a prosperous and thriving Gaza, it would not only have improved the lives of Palestinians but would have provided a powerful and irresistible argument for further Israeli withdrawals and greater Palestinian empowerment. Instead, by making Gaza into a rocket-launching, tunnel-digging, terrorist-training and hatred-spewing garrison state, Hamas turned Israelis and many of their supporters abroad against further concessions and thus condemned Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza to many more years of oppression and despair.

3. Because Hamas is a true enemy of peace. Because its longstanding and successful campaign of undermining any and all negotiated agreements began over 20 years ago, after the Oslo Accords, when its first in a series of suicide bombings inflamed Israeli public opinion and sparked the fire that would eventually consume Yitzhak Rabin and went on from there to undercut Shimon Peres" and pave the way for Oslo-hating Benjamin Netanyahu's rise to power. Because its suicide bombings at the start of the last decade and its incessant rocket fire ever since have continued to erode Israeli support for peace and to turn its adherents into a now endangered minority.

2. Because Hamas is responsible for the wanton killing of hundreds of innocent Israeli civilians, the maiming of thousands, the emotional ruin of tens of thousands and the terrorizing of millions. Because it is a homicidal terrorist group that targets innocent Israeli men, women and children; because it brought murder and mayhem to Israeli towns and cities; because it blew up buses, destroyed shopping malls, decimated restaurants, detonated hotel lobbies and purposely pinpointed young teens at a Tel Aviv disco in order to tear out Israel"s heart and turn it to black.

1. Because Hamas" fanatic rejectionism and dogmatic all-or-nothingism has enfeebled proponents of peace and empowered its resistors; because its malicious cruelty and waves of terror have embittered Israelis and made them cold; because its suicide bombings and inhuman destruction of human life have traumatized and scarred a generation of Israelis, especially the younger. Because brutality begets savagery and barbarity spawns wickedness and ruthlessness erases compassion and fosters callousness instead.

Because although the occupation itself has hardened Israeli hearts and turned them callous, it is Hamas that planted the seed of the poisoned plant that is now infecting Israeli society with chauvinism and ethnocentrism and intolerance and racism and bloodthirstiness and anti-democratic tendencies. Because the more Hamas" persists in its horrid ways, the greater the danger that Israel will follow in its path.

Because Israel, alas, has proven too weak to withstand Hamas" satanic pull. Because, if it isn"t stopped, it will soon be hard to tell the two apart. And because, I suspect, that will suit Hamas just fine.
Mineva
Posts: 336
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7/21/2014 4:25:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 1:05:27 PM, HPWKA wrote:
This is in response to an earlier thread, which had some predictable and extremely :shallow discussion on the recent Israel/Palestinian conflict. I broke off into a new thread :because (i) I hate picking it up after 30 posts or so, and (ii) the thread broke off into a :different sub-topic. My points are as follows.

Hi, please dont feel responsible yourself to make an explanation about the events. Muslim countries have to be strong and we dont have to explain anything. We simply will proceed on our way and other countries will be comply with it. Turkey will be the leader of muslim countries, support them. Such simple.
iconic05
Posts: 3
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7/21/2014 5:25:11 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
2) I watched a video of a tactical strike hitting a target in Gaza. The blast radius was just big enough to destroy the building that was being targeted, without spilling over to the surrounding areas marked "civilian" on the map. The problem being the secondary explosion that happened 10 seconds after the tactical strike: the stockpile of rpg's, grenade launchers, surface to air missiles, etc that Hamas had been storing in that building (in a heavily populated civilian area) caused a secondary explosion 3 times the size of the initial blast which killed dozens of civilians. Israel didn't put that stock-pile of weapons in that building, nor could they have any way of knowing there was such a large stockpile of weapons in that building. Now they are sending in ground forces to avoid things like that happening in the future, so they can be sure of what they are blowing up before they do, because they can't trust that the Palestinians are following the guidelines of the accords & agreements in place.

3) Israel moving ground forces into Gaza is a move to preserve innocent lives. The international community complained about the tactics Israel was using with their Air Force & the ensuing civilian casualties. So now they are going to secure the area with their Army - I would say that's pretty moral wouldn't you?
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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7/21/2014 8:37:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 5:25:11 PM, iconic05 wrote:
2) I watched a video of a tactical strike hitting a target in Gaza. The blast radius was just big enough to destroy the building that was being targeted, without spilling over to the surrounding areas marked "civilian" on the map. The problem being the secondary explosion that happened 10 seconds after the tactical strike: the stockpile of rpg's, grenade launchers, surface to air missiles, etc that Hamas had been storing in that building (in a heavily populated civilian area) caused a secondary explosion 3 times the size of the initial blast which killed dozens of civilians. Israel didn't put that stock-pile of weapons in that building, nor could they have any way of knowing there was such a large stockpile of weapons in that building. Now they are sending in ground forces to avoid things like that happening in the future, so they can be sure of what they are blowing up before they do, because they can't trust that the Palestinians are following the guidelines of the accords & agreements in place.

This is an anecdote. Can we get a reputable source that verifies this actually happens, and if so, that it happens frequently?

3) Israel moving ground forces into Gaza is a move to preserve innocent lives. The international community complained about the tactics Israel was using with their Air Force & the ensuing civilian casualties. So now they are going to secure the area with their Army - I would say that's pretty moral wouldn't you?

The fact that a ground invasion is less immoral/illegal then what Israel was doing before, isn't very redeeming. Their methods are still in gross violation of international law, as well as commonly accepted moral cannons.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
YYW
Posts: 36,243
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7/21/2014 9:04:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 8:37:55 PM, HPWKA wrote:
The fact that a ground invasion is less immoral/illegal then what Israel was doing before, isn't very redeeming. Their methods are still in gross violation of international law, as well as commonly accepted moral cannons.

#conformationbias
jh1234l
Posts: 580
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7/22/2014 8:52:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 9:04:19 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/21/2014 8:37:55 PM, HPWKA wrote:
The fact that a ground invasion is less immoral/illegal then what Israel was doing before, isn't very redeeming. Their methods are still in gross violation of international law, as well as commonly accepted moral cannons.

#conformationbias

Hamas is a terrorist organization that killed 2 civillians, while Israel is a legitimate government that killed 500 civillians.

#Humanrights
#Disagreement=naziantizionism
#HailIsrael

Plus, Israeli organizations made use of editing wikipedia to introduce Pro-Israel statements and such. (http://en.wikipedia.org...)

Yeah, Hamas is trying to use propaganda. Guess what? Both sides are using it.

I disagree with Hamas because they are trying to separate a piece of land from Israel, even though Israel should own it, but this blatant disregard for Human Rights violations made by Israel and all the evidence and facts, handwaving away all the evidence against the alleged "human shields" with an assertion that everything is based on " actionable intelligence"? It's just illogical.
My political compass:
Economic Left/Right: -1.00
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1 square right of Nelson Mandela, 2 squares down from Francois Hollande
George_Clinton
Posts: 14
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7/22/2014 11:57:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 8:52:42 AM, jh1234l wrote:
At 7/21/2014 9:04:19 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/21/2014 8:37:55 PM, HPWKA wrote:
The fact that a ground invasion is less immoral/illegal then what Israel was doing before, isn't very redeeming. Their methods are still in gross violation of international law, as well as commonly accepted moral cannons.

#conformationbias

Hamas is a terrorist organization that killed 2 civillians, while Israel is a legitimate government that killed 500 civillians.

#Humanrights
#Disagreement=naziantizionism
#HailIsrael

Plus, Israeli organizations made use of editing wikipedia to introduce Pro-Israel statements and such. (http://en.wikipedia.org...)

Yeah, Hamas is trying to use propaganda. Guess what? Both sides are using it.

I disagree with Hamas because they are trying to separate a piece of land from Israel, even though Israel should own it, but this blatant disregard for Human Rights violations made by Israel and all the evidence and facts, handwaving away all the evidence against the alleged "human shields" with an assertion that everything is based on " actionable intelligence"? It's just illogical.

You know Israel announces most of its plans publicly so that civilians can evacuate the area, reducing civilian casualties (even though it may even make it harder to accomplish set goals, as hamas can merely move what Israel wants elsewhere). But instead, Hamas orders its civilians to stay in place. Why? Well they know they cant win, so keeping them there = civilian casualties, which = bad press... So basically, Israel is actually attacking in defense and trying to reduce civilian casualties, whereas Hamas is doing EVERYTHING it can in order to INCREASE its civilian casualties, so people like you rage at Israel. Which means Hamas loses militarily, but win with international opinion... Which is what matters to them.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,463
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7/22/2014 2:58:45 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 3:44:43 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/21/2014 1:05:27 PM, HPWKA wrote:
This is in response to an earlier thread, which had some predictable and extremely shallow discussion on the recent Israel/Palestinian conflict. I broke off into a new thread because (i) I hate picking it up after 30 posts or so, and (ii) the thread broke off into a different sub-topic. My points are as follows.

Yes Hamas is firing rockets, yes we can all agree this isn't ideal, but a few things need to be considered when discussing this topic.

(i) Why is Hamas firing these rockets? This latest flareup between Israel and Hamas began around June, in the context of the abduction of the Israeli-teens in the occupied West Bank. Israel claimed Hamas was responsible (despite presenting no evidence), and proceeded to invade the West Bank, capturing 500 Palestinians without charge (many of whom were Hamas members of the internationally recognized Palestinian Unity Government), damaging civilian infrastructure, and killing around 18 Palestinians during this time span.

Heavy Hamas rocket-fire began in response, and Hamas's conditions for ending their barrage have been consistent. They want Israel to release the Palestinian prisoners and ease the blockade on Gaza. These are reasonable conditions.

Hamas is firing rockets at civilians because they are a terrorist organization, devoid of all political legitimacy, whose sole objective is to kill Jews. Hamas has no interest in peace, just as they have no interest in coexistence with Israel. As long as Hamas exists, its members will do everything they can to kill Israelis -specifically Israeli civilians- as a means of pursuing its religious and political objectives.


Nice. I knew as soon as I read 'nuanced' that I was going to read nonsense, so thanks for this.
This space for rent.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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7/22/2014 7:24:14 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 1:05:27 PM, HPWKA wrote:
Since its clear Hamas poses almost ZERO threat to Israel
They do pose a threat to Israel, but this state manages to defend itself. On the other hand, Hamas is building tunnels, weapons, everything else needed to fire countless amounts of rockets to provoke the response of Israel. Why don't you ask yourself why they don't build security basements/bunker for their civilians? Why they don't urge them to hide and save their lives, rather than PRAISE them and ADVISE them for staying on targeted areas that will very likely be bombed and result in death? Try again, loser.
YYW
Posts: 36,243
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7/22/2014 7:30:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I have a theory that either HPWKA is affiliated with Hamas or he is out of touch with objective reality. Perhaps both.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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7/22/2014 7:35:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 7:30:54 PM, YYW wrote:
I have a theory that either HPWKA is affiliated with Hamas or he is out of touch with objective reality. Perhaps both.
Hamas knows reality very well. Few people can pull off this sort of tactic that makes use of civilian lives as if it meant nothing, and yet have the world sympathize with them.
YYW
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7/22/2014 7:37:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 7:35:33 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/22/2014 7:30:54 PM, YYW wrote:
I have a theory that either HPWKA is affiliated with Hamas or he is out of touch with objective reality. Perhaps both.
Hamas knows reality very well. Few people can pull off this sort of tactic that makes use of civilian lives as if it meant nothing, and yet have the world sympathize with them.

Then HPWKA is just a liar, if he's affiliated with Hamas.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,215
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7/22/2014 9:06:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 7:35:33 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/22/2014 7:30:54 PM, YYW wrote:
I have a theory that either HPWKA is affiliated with Hamas or he is out of touch with objective reality. Perhaps both.
Hamas knows reality very well. Few people can pull off this sort of tactic that makes use of civilian lives as if it meant nothing, and yet have the world sympathize with them.

Hamas
Promotes
War
Killing
And genocide.
jh1234l
Posts: 580
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7/22/2014 10:11:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 11:57:28 AM, George_Clinton wrote:
At 7/22/2014 8:52:42 AM, jh1234l wrote:
At 7/21/2014 9:04:19 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/21/2014 8:37:55 PM, HPWKA wrote:
The fact that a ground invasion is less immoral/illegal then what Israel was doing before, isn't very redeeming. Their methods are still in gross violation of international law, as well as commonly accepted moral cannons.

#conformationbias

Hamas is a terrorist organization that killed 2 civillians, while Israel is a legitimate government that killed 500 civillians.

#Humanrights
#Disagreement=naziantizionism
#HailIsrael

Plus, Israeli organizations made use of editing wikipedia to introduce Pro-Israel statements and such. (http://en.wikipedia.org...)

Yeah, Hamas is trying to use propaganda. Guess what? Both sides are using it.

I disagree with Hamas because they are trying to separate a piece of land from Israel, even though Israel should own it, but this blatant disregard for Human Rights violations made by Israel and all the evidence and facts, handwaving away all the evidence against the alleged "human shields" with an assertion that everything is based on " actionable intelligence"? It's just illogical.

You know Israel announces most of its plans publicly so that civilians can evacuate the area, reducing civilian casualties (even though it may even make it harder to accomplish set goals, as hamas can merely move what Israel wants elsewhere). But instead, Hamas orders its civilians to stay in place. Why? Well they know they cant win, so keeping them there = civilian casualties, which = bad press... So basically, Israel is actually attacking in defense and trying to reduce civilian casualties, whereas Hamas is doing EVERYTHING it can in order to INCREASE its civilian casualties, so people like you rage at Israel. Which means Hamas loses militarily, but win with international opinion... Which is what matters to them.

"Phone-call/flyer warnings are not only almost non-existent in these circumstances, but aren't any sort of justification regardless."

"when the UN and Human Rights Organizations investigated, they found "no consistent use" of human-shields by Hamas."

All you are doing is using emotion. BIG CAPITAL LETTERS, unfounded assertions, and presenting a false dilemma between a terrorist organization and a government that does not care about collateral damage.
My political compass:
Economic Left/Right: -1.00
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1 square right of Nelson Mandela, 2 squares down from Francois Hollande
ethang5
Posts: 4,084
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7/25/2014 10:10:22 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 1:05:27 PM, HPWKA wrote:
This is in response to an earlier thread, which had some predictable and extremely shallow discussion on the recent Israel/Palestinian conflict. I broke off into a new thread because (i) I hate picking it up after 30 posts or so, and (ii) the thread broke off into a different sub-topic. My points are as follows.

Yes Hamas is firing rockets, yes we can all agree this isn't ideal, but a few things need to be considered when discussing this topic.

(i) Why is Hamas firing these rockets?

Since it's obviously not to kill Israelis, it must be to get Israel to hit back so they can cry and get international support. It's a people-in-exchange-for-political-power ploy.

Heavy Hamas rocket-fire began in response, and Hamas's conditions for ending their barrage have been consistent. They want Israel to release the Palestinian prisoners and ease the blockade on Gaza. These are reasonable conditions.

Untrue. The blockade is also upheld by the Egyptians. Fellow Muslims. Why? Because Egypt knows what Israel knows, that the moment you ease the blockade, the terrorists will import bombs and missiles to use on the innocent and will export terrorists to bomb innocents in markets and schools. Released Palestinian prisoners will immediately become jihadi fighters. Those conditions are absurd. Even the Muslim nation of Egypt know this.

(ii) Do Hamas Rockets pose any threat, and are they legally/morally justified?. Hamas has fired thousands of rockets/projectiles, and killed two people. Contrary to what US media would have us believe, Israel is not facing a significant threat to its security.

Right, because the Israelis invested heavily in Iron Dome and cellars. We should wait till one of those rockets hits a school bus full 3rd graders. The absurdity of this comment is astonishing.

(iii) Is Israel's response morally/legally justified? In response to Hamas's rocket-attacks, Israel has now killed about 500 Palestinians, 70-80% of which were clearly civilians (UN). Israel claims the large number of civilian casualties is due to Hamas's use of "human-shields" (intentionally/forcibly surrounding their rocket-launchers with civilians). They also claim that they are using "advanced warning systems", to help reduce casualties, but that Palestinians often don't listen/evacuate a dangerous area. There are a few problems with these protests.

Why do Palestinians apologists treat the Palestinians as if they are not capable of being responsible for their decisions? They voted Hamas in. They refuse to move, but yet the blame falls on evil Israel?

Firstly, many of Israel airstrikes/raids haven't even targeted specific Hamas weapons/rockets. Dozens of Palestinians have been killed in seemingly bizarre instances, where Israel drops a bomb on a cafe, a wide-open beach, a highway, etc.. instances where there was no threat of a Hamas attack, or evidence of a Hamas presence at all. Phone-call/flyer warnings are not only almost non-existent in these circumstances, but aren't any sort of justification regardless.

Do you really think it is Israel's intent to kill innocent civilians? Are you aware that Israel can easily kill almost every single person in Gaza? In the Afgani & Iraqi wars, Americans had friendly fire episodes. Accidents don't require "justifications". If an army can fire by on it's own forces accidentally, wouldn't it be even more probable to mistake enemy civilians?

Thirdly, in the case where Israel bombs a location they suspect of containing Hamas-rocket-launch sites/operatives, but which also contains a large amount of civilians. No investigation has been launched yet, but Israel's protest about Hamas using "human-shields" is suspect for the following reason. Israel attempted to use this justification in the last major Gaza-War, and when the UN and Human Rights Organizations investigated, they found "no consistent use" of human-shields by Hamas.

Hamas Rockets Found in Second United Nations School
http://www.thewire.com...

The last major issue I'd like to highlight is the issue of proportionality. In essence, Israel is obligated under International Law, to ensure their military response (assuming its justified, which according to the above, it almost never is) is directly in proportion to the threat they are facing. IE, if I flick a rubber-band at you, you aren't allowed to blow up my house.

If you knew I would blow up your house, how responsible are you if you flick a rubber-band at me?

The thing is, your idea of proportionality would have the fighting go on forever. That means in the long run, more death and longer suffering for everyone. Sacrifice more people so as to observe the letter of the law. That is legalism.

Since its clear Hamas poses almost ZERO threat to Israel, its equally clear that Israel's military response has disregarded proportionality, meaning, the few times Israel actually has a legitimate/legal military target (house full of Hamas rocket-launchers/no civilians or proven human shields), its response ends up being completely illegal/immoral/unjustified.

It is easy to claim that Hamas poses almost ZERO threat to Israel as you sit in your nice lawn drinking Iced tea and all your kids at the zoo for an outing. Hamas is a threat to the entire world. Perhaps you don't know their history.

This is the conflict as it stands today. The UN is contemplating Israel's guilt for war-crimes (they have the same info I presented above), and of course, everyone condemns Hamas's continued rocket-attacks. I just wanted to put this conflict in the proper perspective, as I felt like the previous thread had a CNN-like superficial glaze to it, lacking in any real substantive/critical dialogue.

Your post was drenched in naive dis-ingenuousness. Your definition of "proper perspective must be, "The way I personally see things".

Thank God you aren't the judge of whats "proper".
Wocambs
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7/25/2014 10:13:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/21/2014 1:05:27 PM, HPWKA wrote:

Thanks for making that post. The people ridiculing you have been deluded into thinking that 'international opinion' matters on this issue. The only opinion that matters is that of the United States, which will not abandon its support for Israel no matter how many times Israel breaches international law (something the US itself is fond of doing). They also seem to be implying that there is some kind of anti-Israel agenda in the media - why would this be the case? It's an absurd conspiracy theory. As is the idea that Palestinian civilians are sacrificing themselves in their hundreds merely to generate some meaningless bad press. It's prejudice. A contemporary democracy vs. the 'backwards terrorists'.
ethang5
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7/25/2014 10:15:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 7:30:54 PM, YYW wrote:
I have a theory that either HPWKA is affiliated with Hamas or he is out of touch with objective reality. Perhaps both.

Nah, he just sounds like the privileged liberal who hasn't a clue about the true nature of the people he defends.
YYW
Posts: 36,243
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7/25/2014 10:17:28 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/22/2014 9:06:27 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/22/2014 7:35:33 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/22/2014 7:30:54 PM, YYW wrote:
I have a theory that either HPWKA is affiliated with Hamas or he is out of touch with objective reality. Perhaps both.
Hamas knows reality very well. Few people can pull off this sort of tactic that makes use of civilian lives as if it meant nothing, and yet have the world sympathize with them.

Hamas
Promotes
War
Killing
And genocide.

Boom.
Wocambs
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7/25/2014 11:23:40 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/25/2014 10:15:18 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 7/22/2014 7:30:54 PM, YYW wrote:
I have a theory that either HPWKA is affiliated with Hamas or he is out of touch with objective reality. Perhaps both.

Nah, he just sounds like the privileged liberal who hasn't a clue about the true nature of the people he defends.

So you defend Israel knowing it to be a serial violator of international law? As Chomsky says, by official definitions it is a terrorist state.
ethang5
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7/25/2014 11:57:38 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/25/2014 11:23:40 AM, Wocambs wrote:
At 7/25/2014 10:15:18 AM, ethang5 wrote:
At 7/22/2014 7:30:54 PM, YYW wrote:
I have a theory that either HPWKA is affiliated with Hamas or he is out of touch with objective reality. Perhaps both.

Nah, he just sounds like the privileged liberal who hasn't a clue about the true nature of the people he defends.

So you defend Israel knowing it to be a serial violator of international law? As Chomsky says, by official definitions it is a terrorist state.

Anything can be said. Idiots do it all day. Lets look at facts on the ground.

Egypt, an Islamic state who's official position is pro-hamas has blocked its border with Gaza. Why?

Ask most doofus liberals where they would like to go, Israel or Gaza, and the ones who still have a grasp on reality will say Israel. Why?

What is the only democratic state in the middle east?

Israel's courts commonly rule against Israel and in favor of Palestine. Would that occur if Palestine had any sort of court system?

Why do the "innocent" Palestinians dance in the street when Israeli civilians are killed? Why doesn't the Israeli public do that when Palestinians (even evil ones) are killed?

Evil is judged by intent, not by acts. Which is why the guy who tried to bomb a kindergarten but was stopped is more evil than the guy who killed 3 people by accident though no one was killed by the first guy.

Sending thousands of rockets into cities populated by civilians is a war crime, but the people with broken moral compasses will not see that.

Placing and launching rockets from schools and homes is a war crime, but the people with broken moral compasses will not see that.

In Israel, citizens can demonstrate and voice their opinions, even if it is in opposition to the policy of the government. Know what would happen if a group of Palestinians did the equivalent in Gaza?

Yet, people like you, under no threat, unwilling to sacrifice anything yourself, dismissive of the people who do sacrifice to keep you in pizza and colas, have the nerve to castigate Israel.

It is morally repulsive enough to make me puke. If it didn't mean death for us all, I would suggest that we do what the liberals advise with Palestine. But thank God, just like in the time of Hitler, there are still a few men who know what reality is, who do not think popularity equals right. A few men who don't care if evil is offended by being pointed out.
Wocambs
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7/25/2014 12:27:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/25/2014 11:57:38 AM, ethang5 wrote:
Yet, people like you, under no threat, unwilling to sacrifice anything yourself, dismissive of the people who do sacrifice to keep you in pizza and colas, have the nerve to castigate Israel.

It is morally repulsive enough to make me puke. If it didn't mean death for us all, I would suggest that we do what the liberals advise with Palestine. But thank God, just like in the time of Hitler, there are still a few men who know what reality is, who do not think popularity equals right. A few men who don't care if evil is offended by being pointed out.

You're going to take the moral high ground while being a perfect example of a hypocrite? Your argument is literally 'Whatever Israel do, Hamas are worse' - a fallacy at best. What don't you understand about the idea that you have to apply the same standards to yourself as you do others? What don't you understand about the fact that international law does not let you establish blockades or annex land whenever you feel like it?

The reason I am so keen to criticise Israel is because 'we' approve of and support their crimes. This makes us quite responsible for those crimes. Indulging in moral condemnation of Hamas while being completely blind to the evil we are supporting is pure hypocrisy, and judging from what I've seen in this forum it desperately needs to be pointed out.
ethang5
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7/25/2014 1:06:06 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/25/2014 12:27:59 PM, Wocambs wrote:
At 7/25/2014 11:57:38 AM, ethang5 wrote:

Yet, people like you, under no threat, unwilling to sacrifice anything yourself, dismissive of the people who do sacrifice to keep you in pizza and colas, have the nerve to castigate Israel.

It is morally repulsive enough to make me puke. If it didn't mean death for us all, I would suggest that we do what the liberals advise with Palestine. But thank God, just like in the time of Hitler, there are still a few men who know what reality is, who do not think popularity equals right. A few men who don't care if evil is offended by being pointed out.

You're going to take the moral high ground while being a perfect example of a hypocrite? Your argument is literally 'Whatever Israel do, Hamas are worse' - a fallacy at best.

That is not my argument. I was responding to your post. What does Israel do? Defend itself? The blockade was put up because Hamas kept importing weapons with which to attack Israel. They let their people starve and use the aid money to buy missiles. That itself is a crime.

The wall was put up because they kept sending 15 year old boys to die in the restaurants and markets of Israel. What would you have them do?

Israel has agreed to a two state solution, Hamas has refused to renounce their desire to run Israel into the sea. Israels actions, though harsh, are in response to Hamas. I am not a violent person, but I would wring the neck of anyone who tried to harm my daughter. And I would not apologize for it. And I would dismiss as a moral moron anyone who concluded that my justification was, "Whatever I did, my daughter's attacker was worse."

What don't you understand about the idea that you have to apply the same standards to yourself as you do others? What don't you understand about the fact that international law does not let you establish blockades or annex land whenever you feel like it?

Israel did not do those things "because they felt like it". Think man! Israel can eliminate the Palestinians. If they are so evil and unrestrained, why don't they do it? When I say you have a broken moral compass, it isn't just rhetoric. You really see good and evil and switch them. Sort of like moral dyslexia.

The reason I am so keen to criticise Israel is because 'we' approve of and support their crimes.

In Yahoo news I read about a girl who had gone to a holocaust site and taken a unremarkable pic of herself slightly smiling. People wrote to her and insulted her and claimed she had "offended" them! What nonsense!

Do you also "approve" of Hamas' crimes? Do you even admit they commit crimes? Virtually the entire United Nations condemn Israel and winks at the Palestinians crimes. What you say about the situation is so removed from reality I'm also beginning to wonder if you're related to Hamas in some way.

This makes us quite responsible for those crimes.

Yes, this is the new fad at the U.N. and beggar countries. The international Community (ie the US, Brits, France, Germany) is responsible because it didn't do anything! Yet as their policies fail in Sudan, Somalia, Greece, Afghanistan, Haiti, Congo, Syria, Mali, Ukraine,,,,,etc, etc, not a single one of them will say, "Hey, wait a minute."

The only crimes I'm responsible for are my own.

Indulging in moral condemnation of Hamas while being completely blind to the evil we are supporting is pure hypocrisy,

What evils are we supporting? The blockade? Roadblocks? Protecting Israeli Citizens? Shooting down their missiles? What?

... and judging from what I've seen in this forum it desperately needs to be pointed out.

Yes. Of course since you MUST be right you will never question your judgement or look at your compass. Yet you would be safer in Israel than in Gaza even if the anti-Israel bias you show were known to the populations there.

Lord help us if people like you are ever in the majority.
Wocambs
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7/25/2014 4:52:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/25/2014 1:06:06 PM, ethang5 wrote:
The blockade was put up because Hamas kept importing weapons with which to attack Israel. They let their people starve and use the aid money to buy missiles

The blockade does what it was intended to do. Cripple the economy and increase the suffering of the people.

The wall was put up because they kept sending 15 year old boys to die in the restaurants and markets of Israel. What would you have them do?

"contrary to the picture portrayed by the state, the settlement-expansion plans played a substantial role in the planning of the Barrier's route.

The report shows that not only were security-related reasons of secondary importance in certain locations, in cases when they conflicted with settlement expansion, the planners opted for expansion, even at the expense of compromised security. This desire for settlement expansion led to an increase in the violation of Palestinians' human rights" http://www.btselem.org...

Israel has agreed to a two state solution, Hamas has refused to renounce their desire to run Israel into the sea. Israels actions, though harsh, are in response to Hamas

"I say this because in their reconciliation announcement Fateh and Hamas made it clear that the unity government and the desired subsequent negotiations with Israel would be based on three important principles that have long been an Israeli and American demand, and that the Quartet in 2006 specifically demanded from Hamas: that Hamas adhere to three conditions of non-violence, adherence to previous agreements, and acceptance of Israel"s right to exist. On this basis, it was assumed, Palestinian negotiators would speak for all Palestinians, and Israel, the United States and other countries could deal with Hamas.

Well, the national unity agreement between Fatah and Hamas last week precisely mentioned that Hamas had agreed to these three demands; the UN Secretary General"s special representative to the Arab-Israeli peace process, Robert Serry, made it clear after meeting Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas that the national unity government would respect the existing PLO commitments that include recognition of Israel, non-violence, and adherence to previous agreements. In other words, the UN sees the Palestinian unity agreement terms as having met the conditions that the Quartet set on 30 Jan 2006.

So what did Israel do in return for Hamas meetings its conditions, with the United States in tow? It immediately ended the negotiations and told President Abbas that he had to choose between peace with Israel or a "pact" with Hamas."
http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu...+(Belfer+Center+for+Science+and+International+Affairs+-+Middle+East)

Israel did not do those things "because they felt like it". Think man! Israel can eliminate the Palestinians. If they are so evil and unrestrained, why don't they do it?

You mean literally commit a genocide? Their current strategy seems to be working just fine. Encroach, steal land and resources,build settlements, divide the land the Palestinians do have into cantons... They're clearly unwilling to have serious peace talks, so peace can't be a plan of theirs.

Do you also "approve" of Hamas' crimes? Do you even admit they commit crimes? Virtually the entire United Nations condemn Israel and winks at the Palestinians crimes. What you say about the situation is so removed from reality I'm also beginning to wonder if you're related to Hamas in some way.

Presumably they do commit crimes, but as I've said, this isn't about me supporting Hamas over Israel but rather criticising both - and as the publication I referred to above points out, the Palestinians are clearly more interested in putting an end to this than the Israelis are. Plus, what the U.N. thinks doesn't mean anything so long as the US protects Israel and sanctions all of its wrongdoing... speaking of which.

Yes, this is the new fad at the U.N. and beggar countries. The international Community (ie the US, Brits, France, Germany) is responsible because it didn't do anything! Yet as their policies fail in Sudan, Somalia, Greece, Afghanistan, Haiti, Congo, Syria, Mali, Ukraine,,,,,etc, etc, not a single one of them will say, "Hey, wait a minute."

The only crimes I'm responsible for are my own.

The US supports Israel, while fully aware of the crimes it commits, and has little interest in preventing further immoral behaviour. It supports Israel economically, militarily and diplomatically. This is very significant support indeed. You are a US citizen. If your government is behaving immorally, and you support that immorality, then aren't you a little bit responsible? Don't you live in a democracy?

What evils are we supporting? The blockade? Roadblocks? Protecting Israeli Citizens? Shooting down their missiles? What?

An illegal blockade which cripples the economy, an illegal wall, illegal settlement expansion, illegal movement of Palestinians, illegal demolition, the killing of thousands of civilians in response to

"B'Tselem"s research indicates that, from June 2004 to 23 July 2014, 26 Israeli civilians (four of them minors) and two foreign nationals were killed in Israel by Palestinian rocket and mortar fire. In addition, five soldiers were killed, three in Israel and two in the Gaza Strip. Another Israeli civilian and three foreign nationals were killed by rocket fire at settlements in the Gaza Strip, before they were evacuated. Palestinian rocket fire also killed at least 11 Palestinians (eight of them minors).One Israeli civilian (a minor inIsrael) and one soldier (in the Gaza Strip) were killed by an anti-tank missile fire.

A total of 48 persons have been killed by rocket and mortar fire, and two persons have been killed by anti-tank missiles." http://www.btselem.org...

You must ask at what point does it become a little absurd to claim it is 'self-defence' when the casualties work out at hundreds of Palestinians to one Israeli? The New Israeli Torah reads 'A thousand eyes for an eye; a thousand teeth for a tooth', does it?

Yes. Of course since you MUST be right you will never question your judgement or look at your compass. Yet you would be safer in Israel than in Gaza even if the anti-Israel bias you show were known to the populations there.

Lord help us if people like you are ever in the majority.

I think my moral compass is just fine. I'm applying it to both sides; don't write me off as a pro-Hamas lunatic. You eat up any excuse the Israelis offer for their continued aggression. Again, why is that relevant? Why do the living standards of the Israelis justify their savage behaviour towards the Palestinians?

Sorry, but your only responses to me so far have been to claim that:
1. I'm wrong because absolutely everything the Israelis do is to prevent the tiny death toll of Israelis from increasing

While an admirable goal, this is clearly not their only or even primary objective, as is clear from the empirical evidence

2. I'm wrong because I love Hamas but Israel is a better place to live than Gaza or the West Bank

Firstly, I obviously don't love Hamas. What similarities do you think I have with Islamic conservatives? Basically none at all. I would absolutely prefer to live in Israel. But this is irrelevant. The South of England has higher living standards than the North does - I guess this means David Cameron ought to get the army to march on Tyneside to stop the flow of pregnant teenagers and common criminals.
Dazz
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7/30/2014 12:30:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/25/2014 10:17:28 AM, YYW wrote:
At 7/22/2014 9:06:27 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/22/2014 7:35:33 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 7/22/2014 7:30:54 PM, YYW wrote:
I have a theory that either HPWKA is affiliated with Hamas or he is out of touch with objective reality. Perhaps both.
Hamas knows reality very well. Few people can pull off this sort of tactic that makes use of civilian lives as if it meant nothing, and yet have the world sympathize with them.

Hamas
Promotes
War
Killing
And genocide.

Boom.

Can you explain me in general what's the story of Hamas, GAZA and Israel attacks with political background. In that context, I would like to know your personal opinion then, how you see it.
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
Rational_Thinker9119
Posts: 9,054
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7/31/2014 2:50:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I used to have a different opinion on this not too long ago, but I would have to say that Israel is a terrorist state which engages in countless war crimes. For one, their settlements of the West Bank after 1967 are illegal according to article 49 of the 4th Geneva Convention, which clearly state that that civilians cannot be moved into territories it occupies. Israel clearly violates The Principles of International Humanitarian Law. The principle of distinction says that one must not fire unless it does everything it can to distinguish between civilians and militants (Israel still murdered the four kids on the beach, along with other civilians as well which clearly show they target civilians; they can't be that sloppy). They also violate the principle of proportion by bashing Gaza with massive attacks that have killed over 1,300 people so far (most of them civilians), while the weaker rockets from Hamas have only killed 2 Israeli citizens. Also, Israel violates the 4th Geneva Convention again by using collective punishment. Many of the houses they target are family members of people they believe to be in Hamas; but that is collective punishment and is illegal. The Dahiya doctrine which was put forth by the Israeli general Gadi Eizenkot calls for asymmetrical warfare and deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure (we see this these days in Gaza). Again, more war crimes. Also, don't think Isreal is the friend of the USA. They have been caught spying on Americans, and they also have shot down American ships and murdered the passengers in cold blood (remember the USS Liberty?).
Cermank
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7/31/2014 3:56:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
I feel a lot the problem in the arguments comes down to the inharent tribal nature of the conflict at hand. It is possible to have an opinion on the subject without supporting either sides.

Hamas- right now, are a hypocritical organization. Their political wing is a complete mess. Their military wing is pretty good though- and has actively stopped people from firing at Israel. There were arrests of teh terror cells shooting and teh whole deal.

http://www.timesofisrael.com...

http://www.timesofisrael.com...

An Israeli army general says Hamas is stopping attacks against Israel and even "keeps the peace" when the IDF operates along the border.
http://972mag.com...

Hamas did not fire a single rocket since the 2012 ceasefire.

They did fire off once Israel started rounding up Palestinians as a response to the kidnapping and subsequent death of the 3 israeli teens. Or the killing of the two Palestinians in the protest- I'm not sure where this started. Its not important though.

There has been a distinct propoganda on both sides in this argument. In no way am I undermining Hamas, who have behaved despicably by pushing innocent people before the bombs. This is despicable- but I'm not sure of whether there exists a dichotomy between the extremist hamas and 'moderate' hamas. Evidence points to the affirmative though, and especially since its from Israeli source (2), it is enough for me, i suppose.

But Israel IS killing innocent civilians. 1000s of people have died till date owing to its missiles- missiles it doesn't need to shoot- given its higher technological skills and incompetence of Hamas. The issue of unnecessary force does come into play. Its killing innocent people and its people are cheering it on by proclaiming that there 'need be no schools in Gaza since there are no children left there'.

tldr, both of them are scum. Israel isn't any better, and both of them need to address themselves to solve the issue rather than pointing at the other one to behave.
Dazz
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7/31/2014 7:51:51 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 7/31/2014 2:50:00 AM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
I used to have a different opinion on this not too long ago, but I would have to say that Israel is a terrorist state which engages in countless war crimes. For one, their settlements of the West Bank after 1967 are illegal according to article 49 of the 4th Geneva Convention, which clearly state that that civilians cannot be moved into territories it occupies. Israel clearly violates The Principles of International Humanitarian Law. The principle of distinction says that one must not fire unless it does everything it can to distinguish between civilians and militants (Israel still murdered the four kids on the beach, along with other civilians as well which clearly show they target civilians; they can't be that sloppy). They also violate the principle of proportion by bashing Gaza with massive attacks that have killed over 1,300 people so far (most of them civilians), while the weaker rockets from Hamas have only killed 2 Israeli citizens. Also, Israel violates the 4th Geneva Convention again by using collective punishment. Many of the houses they target are family members of people they believe to be in Hamas; but that is collective punishment and is illegal. The Dahiya doctrine which was put forth by the Israeli general Gadi Eizenkot calls for asymmetrical warfare and deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure (we see this these days in Gaza). Again, more war crimes. Also, don't think Isreal is the friend of the USA. They have been caught spying on Americans, and they also have shot down American ships and murdered the passengers in cold blood (remember the USS Liberty?).

Hey has your account been hacked? ;) Anyway apart to my surprise, it's good to see someone has a heart with mind. I can't understand the psychic of the people, who can't distinguish the brutality of Israel and start attributing the reasons to Hamas. Whatever the reason is, fact is civilians are being attacked that's unjustified. It's just terrible to think if that has happened to our family that's what happening in GAZA. Your provided principle of distinction and the principle of proportion are the powerful facts that can't be ignored. Thanks to raise your voice for Humanity and Justice. I owe you respect for it!
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~