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Are libertarians better debaters?

HandsOff
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2/28/2010 9:14:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I've noticed both in debates and in the forums that Libertarians seem to be a cut above the rest in their abilities to see things clearly and use reason versus emotion and rationalization to come to their positions. Since debaters are a rare breed and tend to have exceptionally strong reasoning skills, it's no wonder the percentage of libertarians on this site is wildly disproportoinate to that of the general public. But are they better debaters, or just on the right side of the issue more of the time?
Puck
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2/28/2010 9:22:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
It may be confounded by the very issues where the two can differ. Social programs tend to rely on the desire (or duty) to do good - humanitarian based arguments consequently can appear to be appealing to emotional reactions.
InsertNameHere
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2/28/2010 9:25:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Libertarians aren't a rare breed. They seem to make up the majority of this site much to my annoyance as we're like polar opposites.
wjmelements
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2/28/2010 9:35:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/28/2010 9:25:31 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Libertarians aren't a rare breed. They seem to make up the majority of this site much to my annoyance as we're like polar opposites.

Libertarians are a rare breed irl, but they constitute a majority on this site. This is obviously due to the principle of survival of the fittest.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
JBlake
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2/28/2010 9:38:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Handsoff, perhaps your perspective on libertarians as "better" in debate and as "right" about more issues is clouded by your shared ideology?
HandsOff
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2/28/2010 9:41:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/28/2010 9:25:31 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Libertarians aren't a rare breed. They seem to make up the majority of this site much to my annoyance as we're like polar opposites.

That's my point. Libertarians are a very small minority of the general public, but show up in larger numbers on this site-- which you would expect to attract those who have a handle on solid reasoning. By the way, you can't the polar opposite of a libertarian unless your are in favor of wiping out all social freedoms, pushing your religion on others, oppressive taxation and irresponsible spending. Are those your positions?
HandsOff
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2/28/2010 9:46:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/28/2010 9:38:57 PM, JBlake wrote:
Handsoff, perhaps your perspective on libertarians as "better" in debate and as "right" about more issues is clouded by your shared ideology?

You don't have to be biased to point out inconsistencies in logic and emotional appeals. Most liberals and religious nuts will admit we libertarians are just too damn logical. Arguments used to impose religious values and forced simply require more than simple logic to be effective.
PoeJoe
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2/28/2010 9:46:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Libertarians are more prevalent everywhere on the Internet, because younger people (including myself) are likelier to have non-mainstream opinions, and younger people use the Internet more than older people.

That, and to be a libertarian is to be very confident in your beliefs...it's like the gay movement but in a bigger scale. There aren't many gays in the world, but we hear about them a lot, because they are forced to make a big deal about their beliefs. Otherwise, they won't be heard. Heterosexual rights don't need to be spoken all the time...same thing with liberal/conservative ideologies. If you're a libertarian, you have to make a lot of noise, and the Internet is the perfect place for it.
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PoeJoe
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2/28/2010 9:49:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/28/2010 9:46:43 PM, HandsOff wrote:
At 2/28/2010 9:38:57 PM, JBlake wrote:
Handsoff, perhaps your perspective on libertarians as "better" in debate and as "right" about more issues is clouded by your shared ideology?

You don't have to be biased to point out inconsistencies in logic and emotional appeals. Most liberals and religious nuts will admit we libertarians are just too damn logical. Arguments used to impose religious values and forced simply require more than simple logic to be effective.

Logical itself is subjective. You can't say you've completely considered all the logical viewpoints anymore than I can. No one can ever be objectively right...even if they could, you still wouldn't be able to claim that you are objectively right.
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HandsOff
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2/28/2010 10:02:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Logical itself is subjective.

You continue to make my point with your comments. The hope that logic is subjective exactly what liberals and religious republicans rely upon to make their arguments.
PoeJoe
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2/28/2010 10:06:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
For that matter, the statement "libertarians tend to use logic more than statists do" is itself an emotional and subjective response for the very reason that you are not God. You do not objectively know anything, and you can no more say that I am being emotional than I can say you are. Hell, even the words "emotional" and "logical" are subjective, as they are human-defined concepts. You can only prove logic through logic, and you can only disprove emotion through emotion. You have not considered everything that could be considered, and to say that libertarianism is objectively right through the evidence of logic is to be against the very subjectivity that you uphold
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PoeJoe
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2/28/2010 10:09:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/28/2010 10:02:48 PM, HandsOff wrote:
You continue to make my point with your comments. The hope that logic is subjective exactly what liberals and religious republicans rely upon to make their arguments.

I've posted some arguments that in my view are correct.

Disprove them to me. If you are objectively correct, then show me.
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HandsOff
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2/28/2010 10:13:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
You do not objectively know anything, and you can no more say that I am being emotional than I can say you are. Hell, even the words "emotional" and "logical" are subjective, as they are human-defined concepts.

how convenient.
Reasoning
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2/28/2010 10:14:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/28/2010 9:49:32 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
Logical(sic) itself is subjective.

Is that objectively true or would I be just as correct as you if I said that logic is objective?
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
HandsOff
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2/28/2010 10:16:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I've posted some arguments that in my view are correct.

Disprove them to me. If you are objectively correct, then show me.

That would be fun. Present them specifically in a debate challenge and if I disagree with anything you say I will accept.
InsertNameHere
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2/28/2010 10:18:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/28/2010 9:41:38 PM, HandsOff wrote:
At 2/28/2010 9:25:31 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Libertarians aren't a rare breed. They seem to make up the majority of this site much to my annoyance as we're like polar opposites.

That's my point. Libertarians are a very small minority of the general public, but show up in larger numbers on this site-- which you would expect to attract those who have a handle on solid reasoning. By the way, you can't the polar opposite of a libertarian unless your are in favor of wiping out all social freedoms, pushing your religion on others, oppressive taxation and irresponsible spending. Are those your positions?

No, I'm a socialist. That in itself directly opposes libertarianism, at least in the economic aspect.
PoeJoe
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2/28/2010 10:20:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/28/2010 10:14:54 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 2/28/2010 9:49:32 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
Logical(sic) itself is subjective.

Is that objectively true or would I be just as correct as you if I said that logic is objective?

Whether you'd be correct or not we wouldn't objectively know. Because of this, we can assume all knowledge is subjective...we can't possibly have considered everything there is to consider, else we'd be Gods. Therefore, perhaps the only thing we know for sure is that we don't know anything for sure, other than the fact that we can't know if we are objectively correct.

Like I said, you can't say you are objectively right any more than I can, and you can't say that I am being emotional any more than I can say the same of you.
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Volkov
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2/28/2010 10:20:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/28/2010 9:41:38 PM, HandsOff wrote:
That's my point. Libertarians are a very small minority of the general public, but show up in larger numbers on this site-- which you would expect to attract those who have a handle on solid reasoning.

Not necessarily. The common saying is that with the advent of the internet, the freaks finally had a way to get out their voice. :D
PoeJoe
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2/28/2010 10:23:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/28/2010 10:16:04 PM, HandsOff wrote:
I've posted some arguments that in my view are correct.

Disprove them to me. If you are objectively correct, then show me.

That would be fun. Present them specifically in a debate challenge and if I disagree with anything you say I will accept.

I'm new at philosophy, and I consider the forums a better place for learning.

I'm not going to challenge you to a debate until I've established more ground on this topic. Please post your rebuttal here if you want to. I assure you I am open-minded...I mean, I'd have to be to believe in subjectivity.
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HandsOff
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2/28/2010 10:29:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
No, I'm a socialist. That in itself directly opposes libertarianism, at least in the economic aspect.

If you believe the country needs to provide more services and borrow more money we don't have to expand government's currently unaffordable size, then you disagree with libertarians only on economic policy (and whether it's okay to live in an economic fantasy world). You are not our polar opposite.
HandsOff
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2/28/2010 10:33:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm not going to challenge you to a debate until I've established more ground on this topic. Please post your rebuttal here if you want to. I assure you I am open-minded...I mean, I'd have to be to believe in subjectivity.

Make your specific statement. If it doesn't hold up to objective logic, I'll tell you why I think so.
belle
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2/28/2010 10:42:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/28/2010 9:38:57 PM, JBlake wrote:
Handsoff, perhaps your perspective on libertarians as "better" in debate and as "right" about more issues is clouded by your shared ideology?

this was my first thought when reading the thread
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Korashk
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2/28/2010 10:52:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
To answer the topic question, I don't think being a libertarian makes you a better debater, I think that our aptitude for debate and the ability to see things from a more objective viewpoint molds our ideolgies to be more libertarian than your average Joe.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
PoeJoe
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2/28/2010 10:52:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/28/2010 10:33:27 PM, HandsOff wrote:
Make your specific statement. If it doesn't hold up to objective logic, I'll tell you why I think so.

Here are some basic arguments, presented in a pseudo-syllogistic form.

On limited knowledge:
1) All knowledge is inherently limited, because we are not Gods and we cannot possibly have considered all logical points of view on any given subject.
2) Possibly, some of these unconsidered logical points of view could radically change our views on certain issues. Indeed, they could change even how we perceive issues.
3) Because of our limited capacity, we can never say we are objectively correct.
4) Therefore, objective knowledge, insofar as we can possibly know, does not exist.

On logic:
1) Logic is a human-defined concept which is inherently limited.
2) Logic can only be supported by more logic, and thus is self-referential.
3) Therefore, there is no intrinsic reason to believe in logic, as no one can say they are objectively right any more than someone else can say that they are objectively right.

On inherent bias:
1) We can never free ourselves from our personal and societal biases.
2) Everything we perceive is tinged and polluted by these biases.
3) Because we cannot free ourselves from these biases, our logic is inherently biased.
4) Therefore, logic is subjective, and differs from culture to culture, person to person.

All these point to the same thing: that objectivity, insofar as we can know, does not exist.
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Johnicle
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2/28/2010 10:53:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Here is my reasoning for libertarians being on this site:

Debaters are objectively smarter than the average population.
Smarter people realize that the libertarian view is fundamentally smarter.

Therefore, more people on debate.org are libertarian. :D
HandsOff
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2/28/2010 11:05:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Debaters are objectively smarter than the average population.
Smarter people realize that the libertarian view is fundamentally smarter.

sounds like the most logical explanation so far.
HandsOff
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2/28/2010 11:09:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I thought you wanted to debate something like this:

"Logic is useless in determining whether one argument is superior to another becuase all logic is subjective and equally unreliable."
PoeJoe
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2/28/2010 11:13:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/28/2010 11:09:14 PM, HandsOff wrote:
I thought you wanted to debate something like this:

"Logic is useless in determining whether one argument is superior to another becuase all logic is subjective and equally unreliable."

My position is more like: "Logic cannot be proven to be objectively correct, and therefore is essentially useless if you're trying to find out what is objectively correct, given the three main ideas I talked about in my previous post."

Anyway, I take it that you agree with my three main points?
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belle
Posts: 4,113
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2/28/2010 11:15:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/28/2010 11:13:41 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
At 2/28/2010 11:09:14 PM, HandsOff wrote:
I thought you wanted to debate something like this:

"Logic is useless in determining whether one argument is superior to another becuase all logic is subjective and equally unreliable."

My position is more like: "Logic cannot be proven to be objectively correct, and therefore is essentially useless if you're trying to find out what is objectively correct, given the three main ideas I talked about in my previous post."

Anyway, I take it that you agree with my three main points?

basically you're saying everything is essentially useless when trying to determine whether or not something is "objectively true" correct? since consciousness is inherently subjective?
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...