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Ukraine

Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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3/2/2010 11:09:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Ding dong the witch dead! Which old witch? That Tymoshenko b*tch! - http://www.cbc.ca...

Hehe. Anyways, what are folk's thoughts on the situation in Ukraine? I'm personally glad that blow-up doll look-alike Tymoshenko is getting kicked out of her office as Prime Minister; she's done nothing for the country and deserves no post.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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3/2/2010 11:24:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
It's an important example of Eastern European democracy going through growing pains. It also has big consequences for you Euros who rely on Russian oil traversing through Ukraine.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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3/2/2010 12:47:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 11:24:13 AM, Volkov wrote:
It's an important example of Eastern European democracy going through growing pains. It also has big consequences for you Euros who rely on Russian oil traversing through Ukraine.

Europe has all the military capabilities of Russia plus the added pwnage of NATO.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/2/2010 12:49:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 12:47:49 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

Europe has all the military capabilities of Russia plus the added pwnage of being friends with the US
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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3/2/2010 12:51:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 12:49:38 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/2/2010 12:47:49 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

Europe has all the military capabilities of Russia plus the added pwnage of being the United State's little sister
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/2/2010 12:53:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 12:51:16 PM, Nags wrote:
Europe has all the military capabilities of Russia plus the added pwnage of being the United State's little sister

I'd withdraw my comment if I could...

Yours was more well put.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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3/2/2010 12:58:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 12:51:16 PM, Nags wrote:
At 3/2/2010 12:49:38 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/2/2010 12:47:49 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

Europe has all the military capabilities of Russia plus the added pwnage of being the United State's friend who is being recognised as the cooler kid on the block, meanwhile the U.S. owes trillions to China
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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3/2/2010 1:01:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 12:53:24 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
I'd withdraw my comment if I could...

Yours was more well put.

Thank you, sir. I do admit, however, I never would have wrote my comment if it weren't for yours.

At 3/2/2010 12:58:05 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 3/2/2010 12:51:16 PM, Nags wrote:
At 3/2/2010 12:49:38 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/2/2010 12:47:49 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Europe has all the military capabilities of Russia plus the added pwnage of being the United State's friend who is being recognised as the cooler kid on the block

Not lolzworthy.

The US would absolutely wreck China in a war.

Good point.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/2/2010 1:04:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 12:47:49 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

Europe has all the military capabilities of Russia plus the added pwnage of being the United State's friend who is being recognised as the Vastly militarily superior kid on the block, which is actually relevant to the conversation as I was earlier talking about Russia being a threat to Europe, not who owes who money, as if I were I'd recognize that ALL of Europe really ought to be paying a lot more for that military tech we're basically given by the US.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/2/2010 1:06:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 12:58:05 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 3/2/2010 12:51:16 PM, Nags wrote:
At 3/2/2010 12:49:38 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/2/2010 12:47:49 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

Europe has all the military capabilities of Russia plus the added pwnage of being the United State's friend who is being recognised as the cooler kid on the block, meanwhile the U.S. owes trillions to China

https://www.cia.gov...

Several European countries are listed higher than the United States, including France which is the very essence of what is thought of when one refers to "Europe." Hell, Italy basically has triple going on.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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3/2/2010 1:07:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 1:01:11 PM, Nags wrote:

The US would absolutely wreck China in a war.

Good point.

Lulzoar, not before losing Taiwan and maybe South Korea.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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3/2/2010 1:49:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 12:47:49 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Europe has all the military capabilities of Russia plus the added pwnage of NATO.

... So, what, you're going to invade Russia for oil? Military power has nothing to do with what I said.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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3/2/2010 1:52:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 1:49:12 PM, Volkov wrote:
... So, what, you're going to invade Russia for oil?
That is always a fail.

But USA is good at invasions so the government over there would be more optimistic I think.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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3/2/2010 1:56:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 1:52:42 PM, Mirza wrote:
USA is good at invasions

Huh? As in, good at starting invasions and good at losing the intentions of the invasion, then yes, you would be correct.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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3/2/2010 1:59:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 1:56:17 PM, Nags wrote:
At 3/2/2010 1:52:42 PM, Mirza wrote:
USA is good at invasions

Huh? As in, good at starting invasions and good at losing the intentions of the invasion, then yes, you would be correct.

I think we did really well in the First Gulf War, Korea and D-Day. Look at history as a whole.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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3/2/2010 2:00:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 1:56:17 PM, Nags wrote:
Huh? As in, good at starting invasions and good at losing the intentions of the invasion, then yes, you would be correct.
Good at getting in and still having a very powerful force.

The reason that USA fails in wars like Iraq and Afghanistan is that they don't fight their enemies face-to-face. It's more of defense than stealth.

As for the Vietnam War, the U.S. was clearly the man there, and won the battle looking from a military perspective, but it lost a political battle.

Invading Russia would be an all-out war, and Americans are good at that. Without nukes though... Then there would be no winner.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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3/2/2010 2:04:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 1:49:12 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 3/2/2010 12:47:49 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Europe has all the military capabilities of Russia plus the added pwnage of NATO.

... So, what, you're going to invade Russia for oil? Military power has nothing to do with what I said.

Right, but it eliminates one usefulness of Ukraine.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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3/2/2010 2:06:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 2:04:48 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Right, but it eliminates one usefulness of Ukraine.

... No, because you still need to transfer that gas, and cheaply. The best way to do it is through Ukraine, unless you're also going to invade Belarus and Turkey.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/2/2010 2:07:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 2:04:48 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:

Right, but it eliminates one usefulness of Ukraine.

So invade Russia b/c you don't like paying attention to Ukraine?

"Ukraine is not weak!"
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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3/2/2010 2:08:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 2:00:12 PM, Mirza wrote:
As for the Vietnam War, the U.S. was clearly the man there, and won the battle looking from a military perspective, but it lost a political battle.

Actually, from a military perspective, we had no chance. Their guerrilla warfare was far superior to our strategy. We cannot beat the terrorists for this same reason.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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3/2/2010 2:09:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 2:06:17 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 3/2/2010 2:04:48 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Right, but it eliminates one usefulness of Ukraine.

... No, because you still need to transfer that gas, and cheaply. The best way to do it is through Ukraine, unless you're also going to invade Belarus and Turkey.

Actually Turkey is pretty desperate to be part of the EU.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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3/2/2010 2:10:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 2:09:21 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Actually Turkey is pretty desperate to be part of the EU.

Doesn't mean they'll make anything cheap.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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3/2/2010 2:10:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 1:59:27 PM, wjmelements wrote:
I think we did really well in the First Gulf War

You mean the same war we are fighting today?

Korea

The first mini-war within the Cold War? Also, take a look at Korea today. How good does it look? This war was more a UN War, then a US invasion, anyway.

and D-Day.

We were talking about invasions of countries, not really amphibious warfare.

Look at history as a whole.

I did.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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3/2/2010 2:11:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 2:08:03 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Actually, from a military perspective, we had no chance. Their guerrilla warfare was far superior to our strategy. We cannot beat the terrorists for this same reason.
Compare the death tolls. USA had much fewer soldier losses than the opposition.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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3/2/2010 2:13:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 2:00:12 PM, Mirza wrote:
As for the Vietnam War, the U.S. was clearly the man there, and won the battle looking from a military perspective, but it lost a political battle.

No. The US lost the Vietnam War on all fronts.

Invading Russia would be an all-out war, and Americans are good at that. Without nukes though... Then there would be no winner.

I don't see the purpose.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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3/2/2010 2:18:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 2:10:59 PM, Nags wrote:
The first mini-war within the Cold War? Also, take a look at Korea today. How good does it look? This war was more a UN War, then a US invasion, anyway.

Actually, the US troops went into Kore under the guise of UN direction and support, but everyone knows why they actually went in there: to stop Communist expansion from the north, to keep the Chinese-allied North Koreans from gaining key bases and positions near Japan, and to maintain the West's foothold in East Asia, outside of Japan and Taiwan. These are all US interests, Nags. That's kinda why US generals were in charge; why US armed forces made up the bulk of logistics and personnel; and why the US directed the entire operation even if they called themselves "UN advisers" at the time.

Korea was a US war - not a "UN" war.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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3/2/2010 2:23:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 2:13:24 PM, Nags wrote:
No. The US lost the Vietnam War on all fronts.
No it didn't. USA crushed the enemy. Over 1 million casualties on the enemies of the U.S. Is that a defeat from a military perspective? Not at all. There is a correlation between a military and political victory, but in this case the U.S. won the military battle but lost the political.

I don't see the purpose.
I was just pointing it out.

And there can be. One reason is that they may want to defend Georgia if it joins NATO.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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3/2/2010 2:28:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 2:18:09 PM, Volkov wrote:
Actually, the US troops went into Korea under the guise of UN direction and support, but everyone knows why they actually went in there: to stop Communist expansion from the north, to keep the Chinese-allied North Koreans from gaining key bases and positions near Japan, and to maintain the West's foothold in East Asia, outside of Japan and Taiwan. These are all US interests, Nags. That's kinda why US generals were in charge; why US armed forces made up the bulk of logistics and personnel; and why the US directed the entire operation even if they called themselves "UN advisers" at the time.

I never said the US didn't have supposed "interests." US Generals were in charge because the US was the clear superpower at the time, not because the US had interests in East Asia.

Korea was a US war - not a "UN" war.

The US had the most troops in the UN and were the strongest. The UN planned and declared or war, not the US Congress. US led the UN, but the it was a UN war, not a US.