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Libertarians support other parties

HandsOff
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3/2/2010 9:36:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Let's get this out of the way before anyone loses any sleep tonight. Libertarians sometimes support democrats or republicans depending on which they consider the lesser of two evils. Anyone disagree with that?
GeoLaureate8
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3/2/2010 9:43:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
It seems as if the majority of the population supports the lesser of the two evils, which results in the majority supporting the evil regardless. If everyone instead supported the independents, then they would actually win.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Volkov
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3/2/2010 9:44:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I don't disagree with it, no. I disagree on a lot of things with my own party, but I still support them.

But the question remains why you, someone who just ranted against the GOP along with the Democrats, would even bother with the "lesser evil" approach, when you just compared them as one in the same. I mean, are you working within the party to make changes, or is it just out of familial or some other form of loyalty?
GeoLaureate8
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3/2/2010 9:58:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 9:43:28 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
It seems as if the majority of the population supports the lesser of the two evils, which results in the majority supporting the evil regardless. If everyone instead supported the independents, then they would actually win.

By the way, this doesn't contradict my other assertion about Ron Paul running as a Republican as a good move.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
HandsOff
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3/2/2010 10:01:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
But the question remains why you, someone who just ranted against the GOP along with the Democrats, would even bother with the "lesser evil" approach, when you just compared them as one in the same. I mean, are you working within the party to make changes, or is it just out of familial or some other form of loyalty?

I'd be a registered democrat if they believed in balance budgets and reasonable taxation. I'm a registered republican because they have a few fiscal conservative still among them who have a chance to gain ground. Ron Paul just won their recent staw pole. I also think with each generation, the country naturally becomes more liberal on lifestyle issues. So I'm not preoccupied with republican attempts to impose their silly religious values. Give me a fiscally conservative democrat or a socially liberal conservative. I just think more of the latter exist in the republican party than the former exist in the democratic party. Most democrats I know don't even think we have a spending problem. They think we should spend even more.
Volkov
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3/2/2010 10:08:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
That's fair enough, HandsOff, though I wonder - do you do any campaigning either for or within the party in favour of such ideals?
Ragnar_Rahl
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3/2/2010 10:13:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Seems to me like the best model for the libertarian party is to informally "join the ticket with" (endorse) whichever two-party candidate "bids highest" in terms of libertarian policies. The US system supports pressure-group lobbying, not true independent candidates.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
HandsOff
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3/2/2010 10:36:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 10:08:56 PM, Volkov wrote:
That's fair enough, HandsOff, though I wonder - do you do any campaigning either for or within the party in favour of such ideals?

Hell no. I study and anticipate the stupid decisions that come out of washington and do my best to profit from them. It's been so lucrative that I'm able to spend hours wasting my time on debate.org.
Volkov
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3/2/2010 10:37:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 10:36:26 PM, HandsOff wrote:
Hell no. I study and anticipate the stupid decisions that come out of washington and do my best to profit from them. It's been so lucrative that I'm able to spend hours wasting my time on debate.org.

I see... well, that's a shame.
Ragnar_Rahl
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3/2/2010 10:38:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 10:37:21 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 3/2/2010 10:36:26 PM, HandsOff wrote:
Hell no. I study and anticipate the stupid decisions that come out of washington and do my best to profit from them. It's been so lucrative that I'm able to spend hours wasting my time on debate.org.

I see... well, that's a shame.

Why do you consider it a shame, liberal?

Unless its the profiting thing I guess.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Reasoning
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3/2/2010 10:41:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 10:37:21 PM, Volkov wrote:
I see... well, that's a shame.

Why is that a shame? Is it because he isn't wasting his time in the political process?

Ah, for you that is indeed a shame, the more you can misdirect libertarians into inert processes that waste their time, the easier it is for you to push your state capitalist agenda.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Ragnar_Rahl
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3/2/2010 10:44:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 10:41:38 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 3/2/2010 10:37:21 PM, Volkov wrote:
I see... well, that's a shame.

Why is that a shame? Is it because he isn't wasting his time in the political process?

Ah, for you that is indeed a shame, the more you can misdirect libertarians into inert processes that waste their time, the easier it is for you to push your state capitalist agenda.

Um, dude, his state agenda that can't really be called capitalist relies on a system that is made specifically more difficult the more people who are against it participate in its elections.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
HandsOff
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3/2/2010 10:48:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 10:41:38 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 3/2/2010 10:37:21 PM, Volkov wrote:
I see... well, that's a shame.

Hey, I debate for entertainment and to stengthen my mind. I disagree with the people who are running this country into the poor house. All I can do is make sure I'm not one of those fools who relies on this pathetic government to save them. If you're a liberal, you are depending on the government to save you. If you are like me, you are depending your ability to respond properly to said government's stupid decisions-- so you can save yourself.
Volkov
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3/2/2010 10:50:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
.....

I think its a shame that someone who is involved with the political process (Reasoning, try reading his posts - he's a Republican, you tard) but with the ideals that he has doesn't try harder to help facilitate change within his chosen party. I'd commend someone that cares as much as he claims he does if he did, but, if not, 'tis a shame.
Reasoning
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3/2/2010 10:50:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 10:44:50 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Um, dude, his state agenda that can't really be called capitalist relies on a system that is made specifically more difficult the more people who are against it participate in its elections.

A much smaller minority could cause much more trouble for Volkov by fighting, figuratively, outside the system than inside it. Haven't you read the New Libertarian Manifesto?
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
HandsOff
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3/2/2010 10:53:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 10:50:11 PM, Volkov wrote:
.....

I think its a shame that someone who is involved with the political process (Reasoning, try reading his posts - he's a Republican, you tard) but with the ideals that he has doesn't try harder to help facilitate change within his chosen party. I'd commend someone that cares as much as he claims he does if he did, but, if not, 'tis a shame.

I'm just here to debate, not change anyone. No amount of logic can change a liberal or religious conservative.
Reasoning
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3/2/2010 10:54:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 10:50:11 PM, Volkov wrote:
.....

I think its a shame that someone who is involved with the political process (Reasoning, try reading his posts - he's a Republican, you tard) but with the ideals that he has doesn't try harder to help facilitate change within his chosen party. I'd commend someone that cares as much as he claims he does if he did, but, if not, 'tis a shame.

Ron Paul is a member of the Republican Party and he is one of my heroes. Coincidentally, Paul was also Rothbard's candidate back in 1988.

Any effort Hands Off would devote to politicking would just be time wasted, especially in the Republican Party. I am sure he has much better uses of his time.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Volkov
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3/2/2010 10:56:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 10:48:58 PM, HandsOff wrote:
Hey, I debate for entertainment and to stengthen my mind. I disagree with the people who are running this country into the poor house. All I can do is make sure I'm not one of those fools who relies on this pathetic government to save them. If you're a liberal, you are depending on the government to save you.

Actually, I have a job. Not an amazing job, but one nonetheless. The only thing I've relied on the government for directly lately is getting a copy of my birth certificate from the Registrar General, though I'm certainly glad they have it - I tend to lose a lot of things.

If you are like me, you are depending your ability to respond properly to said government's stupid decisions-- so you can save yourself.

Mhm... I said it was a shame on the basis that I think anyone who cares as much as you claim you do about how these people are running the country into the "poor house," isn't working to try and fix that internally within the party you consider a "lesser evil." You could probably do a lot of good.

But... no, apparently you don't want to, which is a shame to me. Though, its kind of hypocritical on your part too.. I mean, you can sit and complain, or you could get off your arse and do something. Its up to you, of course - but I, like others, judge most on their actions. You, sir, have done nothing but talk on an obscure website, unless you can prove me wrong.
Volkov
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3/2/2010 10:57:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 10:50:41 PM, Reasoning wrote:
A much smaller minority could cause much more trouble for Volkov by fighting, figuratively, outside the system than inside it. Haven't you read the New Libertarian Manifesto?

Ooh, is Reasoning calling for violence? Pseudo-anarchist!
Volkov
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3/2/2010 10:59:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 10:54:30 PM, Reasoning wrote:
Ron Paul is a member of the Republican Party and he is one of my heroes. Coincidentally, Paul was also Rothbard's candidate back in 1988.

Great?

Any effort Hands Off would devote to politicking would just be time wasted, especially in the Republican Party. I am sure he has much better uses of his time.

So maybe he shouldn't come on here, complain about the Republicans, and then admit he is a supporter of one because they're the "lesser evil." If, in fact, this guy had any interest in helping facilitate his ideals among others, he'd be more involved, maybe not within the GOP, but at least somehow, out there, in that big wide world. Not on DDO.
Ragnar_Rahl
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3/2/2010 11:00:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 10:50:41 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 3/2/2010 10:44:50 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Um, dude, his state agenda that can't really be called capitalist relies on a system that is made specifically more difficult the more people who are against it participate in its elections.

A much smaller minority could cause much more trouble for Volkov by fighting, figuratively, outside the system than inside it. Haven't you read the New Libertarian Manifesto?

I read the part you posted on DDO. The sample didn't look promising for investing time in the rest of it. And what the hell do you mean "outside the system?" Where you go, if you don't implement a state, the Marines follow. If you implement an unsatisfactory state by their standards, the Marines might also follow, but you have a fighting chance. Everywhere on earth, the system makes a claim.

What fighting outside the system are you doing? You're on the Internet, a government-created institution. Why aren't you on a private network that doesn't pay its taxes?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
HandsOff
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3/2/2010 11:00:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 10:56:01 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 3/2/2010 10:48:58 PM, HandsOff wrote:
Hey, I debate for entertainment and to stengthen my mind. I disagree with the people who are running this country into the poor house. All I can do is make sure I'm not one of those fools who relies on this pathetic government to save them. If you're a liberal, you are depending on the government to save you.

Actually, I have a job. Not an amazing job, but one nonetheless. The only thing I've relied on the government for directly lately is getting a copy of my birth certificate from the Registrar General, though I'm certainly glad they have it - I tend to lose a lot of things.

If you are like me, you are depending your ability to respond properly to said government's stupid decisions-- so you can save yourself.

Mhm... I said it was a shame on the basis that I think anyone who cares as much as you claim you do about how these people are running the country into the "poor house," isn't working to try and fix that internally within the party you consider a "lesser evil." You could probably do a lot of good.

But... no, apparently you don't want to, which is a shame to me. Though, its kind of hypocritical on your part too.. I mean, you can sit and complain, or you could get off your arse and do something. Its up to you, of course - but I, like others, judge most on their actions. You, sir, have done nothing but talk on an obscure website, unless you can prove me wrong.

I agree 100%. It's hypocritical for me not be involved in ALL the causes I find worthy. But I get quite a bit of enjoyment watching these "brilliant" people run our country into the ground. I love to see bad logic backfire. It also gives me so much spending power.
Reasoning
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3/2/2010 11:01:28 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 10:57:03 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 3/2/2010 10:50:41 PM, Reasoning wrote:
A much smaller minority could cause much more trouble for Volkov by fighting, figuratively, outside the system than inside it. Haven't you read the New Libertarian Manifesto?

Ooh, is Reasoning calling for violence? Pseudo-anarchist!

Apparently you missed the figuratively. Also, apparently real anarchists never advocate violence? Where have you been? There is indeed truth in the "bomb-throwing anarchist" stereotype. Were you not taught about anarchist Spain and their civil war in your government school? What about the anarchists that participated in the Russian Revolution?
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Volkov
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3/2/2010 11:02:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 11:00:34 PM, HandsOff wrote:
I agree 100%. It's hypocritical for me not be involved in ALL the causes I find worthy. But I get quite a bit of enjoyment watching these "brilliant" people run our country into the ground. I love to see bad logic backfire. It also gives me so much spending power.

So you take pleasure in people taking down the country that you live in and similarly are connected to... yet you are a Republican supporter.
Reasoning
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3/2/2010 11:04:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 11:00:33 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
I read the part you posted on DDO. The sample didn't look promising for investing time in the rest of it. And what the hell do you mean "outside the system?"

Counter Economics: Our Means

What fighting outside the system are you doing? You're on the Internet, a government-created institution. Why aren't you on a private network that doesn't pay its taxes?

I'm educating and instilling the spirit of radical libertarianism.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
HandsOff
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3/2/2010 11:04:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 11:02:38 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 3/2/2010 11:00:34 PM, HandsOff wrote:
I agree 100%. It's hypocritical for me not be involved in ALL the causes I find worthy. But I get quite a bit of enjoyment watching these "brilliant" people run our country into the ground. I love to see bad logic backfire. It also gives me so much spending power.

So you take pleasure in people taking down the country that you live in and similarly are connected to... yet you are a Republican supporter.

I think you've overestimated my party affiliation. I simply haven't had the inclination to change to libertarian party since I registered republican in college. I'm not really a republican at all-- just a lazy libertarian.
Reasoning
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3/2/2010 11:05:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 11:02:38 PM, Volkov wrote:
So you take pleasure in people taking down the country that you live in and similarly are connected to... yet you are a Republican supporter.

Just because your a member of a group does not mean that you endorse all actions taken by said group.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Volkov
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3/2/2010 11:05:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 11:01:28 PM, Reasoning wrote:
Apparently you missed the figuratively. Also, apparently real anarchists never advocate violence? Where have you been? There is indeed truth in the "bomb-throwing anarchist" stereotype. Were you not taught about anarchist Spain and their civil war in your government school? What about the anarchists that participated in the Russian Revolution?

Oh, you mean the organized political parties of "anarchists," that were essentially nothing but utopian Marxists that differed only slightly from Lenin's crowd, and were wiped out by Lenin after uniting briefly to destroy Kerensky's Provisional Government, which offered them more in the way of power than Lenin did?

Yeah, they aren't the kind of people you want to be invoking the name of.
Volkov
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3/2/2010 11:06:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 11:04:47 PM, HandsOff wrote:
I think you've overestimated my party affiliation. I simply haven't had the inclination to change to libertarian party since I registered republican in college. I'm not really a republican at all-- just a lazy libertarian.

Well, fair enough, I suppose, though I swear that's a contradiction.
HandsOff
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3/2/2010 11:07:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/2/2010 11:05:21 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 3/2/2010 11:01:28 PM, Reasoning wrote:
ated in the Russian Revolution?

Oh, you mean the organized political parties of "anarchists"....

According to most liberals I know, our founding fathers were anarchists, and the Constitution is an anarchist manifesto.