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America's impending DOOM!?!?

FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/4/2010 11:20:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Sorry, don't mean to go all Glenn beck on ya but...

Seriously, what happens when China stops taking our debt???

Implosion much???

Either inflation and taxes completely ski-rocket or we sell off a few states.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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3/4/2010 11:31:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/4/2010 11:20:13 PM, FREEDO wrote:

Either inflation and taxes completely ski-rocket or we sell off a few states.

Hey, give Canada Alaska! We border it anyway! :D
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,927
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3/4/2010 11:40:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/4/2010 11:31:06 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 3/4/2010 11:20:13 PM, FREEDO wrote:

Either inflation and taxes completely ski-rocket or we sell off a few states.

Hey, give Canada Alaska! We border it anyway! :D

We'll give you Sarah Palin for free.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/4/2010 11:55:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
And this is bad news for China too. If America collapses there goes the majority of China's business. If both America and China collapsed we could go into an global economic depression like the world has never seen before!

Holy sheeezit O_o
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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3/4/2010 11:58:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/4/2010 11:40:49 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/4/2010 11:31:06 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 3/4/2010 11:20:13 PM, FREEDO wrote:

Either inflation and taxes completely ski-rocket or we sell off a few states.

Hey, give Canada Alaska! We border it anyway! :D

We'll give you Sarah Palin for free.

No thanks. Dump her off in China instead.
banker
Posts: 1,370
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3/5/2010 4:13:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Who would have any interest in our gohst towns.?
China has it much batter this way,we do admin work and just donate them our jobs..!
They in effect own us already...!!

In reality they don't need us anymore the products are now going in ever incresing numbers to china,india,brazil,russia..! Even in cars we used to lead,but china now buys more cars then us...!!
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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3/5/2010 8:44:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/5/2010 6:53:19 AM, Koopin wrote:
China, while very populated, is overall a weak nation. Military wise i mean.

They have the second largest military in the world in terms of cost (after us).

China doesn't need us -- how is it in their interest that they loan us money so we can consume the goods that they produce? They THINK they need America, but that illusion is rapidly fading...they recently dumped $34 billion in T-Bills.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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3/5/2010 10:43:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/5/2010 8:44:01 AM, J.Kenyon wrote:
China doesn't need us -- how is it in their interest that they loan us money so we can consume the goods that they produce?

America is still the best market in the world for those wanting to sell their wares. If China pulled out of the American market, they'll have a seriously large hole to fill.

China may not need the US as in, they can never find another alternative; but that would take quite a lot of work, and would take quite a lot of money to do, since not only would they have to diversify like crazy, they'll also have to help build up markets in many of the places they're going to.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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3/5/2010 1:43:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/5/2010 10:43:38 AM, Volkov wrote:
America is still the best market in the world for those wanting to sell their wares. If China pulled out of the American market, they'll have a seriously large hole to fill.

China may not need the US as in, they can never find another alternative; but that would take quite a lot of work, and would take quite a lot of money to do, since not only would they have to diversify like crazy, they'll also have to help build up markets in many of the places they're going to.

Oh gosh, what would happen if the Chinese started consuming their own goods??? Then what? Can't have that! Keynesian fail.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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3/5/2010 1:45:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/5/2010 1:43:34 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
Oh gosh, what would happen if the Chinese started consuming their own goods??? Then what? Can't have that! Keynesian fail.

.... They do consume their own goods. China's biggest market is China. But all their money is made through trade, and not through domestic consumption.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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3/5/2010 1:51:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/4/2010 11:20:13 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Seriously, what happens when China stops taking our debt???

The question is ambiguous, but if you mean "What happens if they demand it?", then the answer is "Absolutely nothing." There is no international being that has absolute sovereignty over the United States.
If they don't want to hold it anymore, they can sell it. There's a market for public debts.

Does anyone know who holds most of China's debt?
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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3/5/2010 1:53:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
People are forgetting 2 factors here:

Despite the figures on paper, the U.S. would hand China it's a** if they went to war.

Firstly, Japan would be able to pull about 2 million (a bit optimistic) to fight along with one of the best navies, which with the fact America has the best navin the world, equates to some serious sea pwnage.

Although China and North Korea have about 4 million troops between en, most of North Koreas troops are under equipped, under trained, and South Korea would easily hold its own.

China would obviously invade Taiwan, but the U.S. navy would basically win the Chinese sea. The only grey area for me is a ground war. The U.S. through history seem to be pretty ineffective when it comes to an actual fight, but I'm sure there are only so many troops China could commit before they fad some form of revolution. And on the dawn a war, the U.S. would simply cancel its debt from China.

Secondly, China is constantly progressing, and the CPOC barely keeps its rule without constant social progress. Eventually, democracy will come when its impossible to implement so much social reform without the massive overhang being left.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
TheSkeptic
Posts: 1,362
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3/5/2010 2:14:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/5/2010 1:53:22 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
People are forgetting 2 factors here:

Despite the figures on paper, the U.S. would hand China it's a** if they went to war.

Firstly, Japan would be able to pull about 2 million (a bit optimistic) to fight along with one of the best navies, which with the fact America has the best navin the world, equates to some serious sea pwnage.

Although China and North Korea have about 4 million troops between en, most of North Koreas troops are under equipped, under trained, and South Korea would easily hold its own.

China would obviously invade Taiwan, but the U.S. navy would basically win the Chinese sea. The only grey area for me is a ground war. The U.S. through history seem to be pretty ineffective when it comes to an actual fight, but I'm sure there are only so many troops China could commit before they fad some form of revolution. And on the dawn a war, the U.S. would simply cancel its debt from China.

Secondly, China is constantly progressing, and the CPOC barely keeps its rule without constant social progress. Eventually, democracy will come when its impossible to implement so much social reform without the massive overhang being left.

I think the focus here is about economic relations, not the military. I'm sure that it's quite unanimous among most military strategists and historians right now that America is currently the top military nation in the world, as it has been for awhile.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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3/5/2010 2:42:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/5/2010 2:14:44 PM, TheSkeptic wrote:

I think the focus here is about economic relations, not the military. I'm sure that it's quite unanimous among most military strategists and historians right now that America is currently the top military nation in the world, as it has been for awhile.

A problem China is quickly going to face is that within 20 year it could be too expensive to produce in, and production could shift to Latin America\ Africa.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Johnicle
Posts: 888
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3/5/2010 3:01:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/5/2010 6:53:19 AM, Koopin wrote:
China, while very populated, is overall a weak nation. Military wise i mean.

um..... no

1. They have nukes...
2. They have technological power to shut off our power grid. Yeah, they hacked our system.
3. Don't worry about this. As long as we still trade with them, they aren't going to hurt us. Even without the money, their economy is booming just off of the interest.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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3/5/2010 3:49:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/5/2010 6:53:19 AM, Koopin wrote:
China, while very populated, is overall a weak nation. Military wise i mean.

Give it 30 years they will be militarily stronger.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
I-am-a-panda
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3/5/2010 3:54:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/5/2010 3:49:22 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 3/5/2010 6:53:19 AM, Koopin wrote:
China, while very populated, is overall a weak nation. Military wise i mean.

Give it 30 years they will be militarily stronger.

But in 30 years they'll have a new array of issues:

- The progressive concessions they give will have to be increased, with each one upping the likelihood of the fall of the CPOC.
- Manufacturers will start to leave China for cheaper labour.
- A new wave of educated Chinese people.

These 3 factors will lead to a very different China. Most people that rule China are from the time of Mao and the cold war.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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3/5/2010 9:18:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/5/2010 1:51:02 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Does anyone know who holds most of China's debt?

Most of China's debt (>95%) is domestic debt, which means that the debt is owed to creditors within their own country. I'm not sure who owns the small percentage of foreign debt, but it's negligible. China's debt is something less than 20% of GDP while the United States debt is about 40% of GDP. GDP isn't an all that accurate measure of economic health and growth. But the numbers are something to think about, anyway.

---

This below is from Peter Schiff's book Crash Proof. I know it's long, but it's definitely worth the read.

I would like to put the ridiculous assumption that the world benefits from America's excess consumption, and has something to fear from its cessation, to rest once and for all. Consider the following analogy:

Suppose six castaways are stranded on a deserted island, five Asians and one American. Further, suppose that the castaways decide to divide the work load among them in the following manner: (for the purpose of simplicity, the only desire the castaways work to satisfy is hunger) one Asian is put in charge of hunting, an other in charge of fishing, and a third in charge of finding vegetation. A fourth is put in charge of preparing the meal, while a fifth is given the task of gathering firewood and tending to the fire. The American is given the job of eating.

So, on our island five Asians work all day to feed one American, who spends his day sunning himself of the beach. He is employed in the equivalent of the service sector, operating a tanning salon which none of the Asians on the island utilize. At the end of the day, the five Asians present a painstakingly prepared feast to the American, who sits at the head of a special table, built by the Asians specifically for this purpose.

Realizing that subsequent banquets will only be forthcoming if the Asians are alive to provide them, he allows them just enough scraps from his table to sustain their labor for the following day.

Modern day economists would say that this American is the lone engine of growth driving the island's economy and that without his ravenous appetite, the Asians on the island would be unemployed. The reality, of course, is that the best thing the Asians could do to improve their lots would be to vote the American off the island. Without the American consuming all of their food, there would be a lot more available for them to eat.

Alternatively, they could spend less time on their food related tasks, devoting the extra time to greater leisure or to satisfying other needs, which previously went unfulfilled since much of their scarce resources are currently devoted to feeding the American.

Now some of you might be thinking that this analogy is flawed, as in the real world economy, Americans pay for their food, so real world Asians providing the meals receive value in exchange for their effort. O.K. lets assume that the American on our island pays for his food in the same manner real world American pay for theirs, buy issuing IOU's. Let's assume that at the end of the meal, the Asians present the American with a bill, which he pays by issuing IOU's claiming to represent future payments of food.

However, all the castaways know that the IOU's can never be collected, as the America has no food, or the means or even the intention, of providing any in the future. But the Asians accept them anyway, and each night add them to the piles of IOUs collected on previous days. Are the Asians better off as a result of this accumulation? Are they any less hungry? Of course not.

Now let's assume another Asian castaway washes up onto the island, and assumes the role of central banker. Now each day the central banker taxes the other Asians on the island by confiscating a portion of the scraps of food the American throws them each day from his table. The central banker than agrees to return these morsels to the other Asians each day, in exchange for each Asian's daily accumulation of the American's IOU's, less a small percentage for himself, because the central banker also has to eat.

Does the existence of a central banker change anything? Do the Asians have any more to eat because their own central banker gives them back a portion of the food he took from them in the first place? Do the American's IOU's have any more value because they can now be exchanged in this manner? Of course not.

Well, if it does not make sense for the six make-believe Asians to support one make-believe American, it does not make sense for billions of real world Asians to support millions of real world Americans. The fact that they do so in exchange for worthless IOU's in no way alters this reality.

There is no question that in the short-run, by allowing the U.S. dollar to collapse (in effect voting millions of American's off the island), there will be some temporary disruptions to Asian economies. Of course there will be some initial losers, particularly among those Asians who currently profit from this arrangement. However, these profits come only at the expense of far greater losses born by the broader Asian population.

In the end, the cessation of America's excess consumption, which is a burden that the Asians now disproportionately bear, not a benefit that they enjoy, will be the best thing that can happen to the Asian people. Like the serfs being liberated from their lords, their scare resources will finally be freed to satisfy their own needs and desires, and their standards of living will rise accordingly. In addition, since their savings would then be available to finance additional capital investments, rather than being squandered by American consumers, their future standards of living will rise that much faster as well.

Unfortunately for Americans, being kicked off the Asian gravy train means its time to get back to work. In simple terms, this means a whole lot more hunting and fishing, and a whole lot less eating.
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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3/5/2010 9:23:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
True2GaGa
Posts: 1,574
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3/5/2010 9:24:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/4/2010 11:40:49 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/4/2010 11:31:06 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 3/4/2010 11:20:13 PM, FREEDO wrote:

Either inflation and taxes completely ski-rocket or we sell off a few states.

Hey, give Canada Alaska! We border it anyway! :D

We'll give you Sarah Palin for free.

10/10
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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3/5/2010 9:29:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/5/2010 9:23:06 PM, Reasoning wrote:
[ Youtube: The World Economy is an Island]

Good vid. I remember seeing Schiff give that speech on (I believe) CNBC before. I've never seen the Ron Paul clip though.