Total Posts:132|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Flat vs. Fair tax?

comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 5:58:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Which do you like and why?

Or progressive taxes for you dirty liberals out there!
(jk)

Or tell me what you think is the best and why?
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 6:55:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
And for you anarchist that will come on and say things like, "duh, I don't believe in taxes!"

Look your system of government does not work, so please!
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 7:18:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 6:55:52 AM, comoncents wrote:
And for you anarchist that will come on and say things like, "duh, I don't believe in taxes!"

I don't believe in income taxes!!

I'd kind of rather see sales taxes on luxury goods... this could probably only support a significantly smaller Fed. govt.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mongoose
Posts: 3,500
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 8:42:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 7:18:47 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/7/2010 6:55:52 AM, comoncents wrote:
And for you anarchist that will come on and say things like, "duh, I don't believe in taxes!"

I don't believe in income taxes!!

I'd kind of rather see sales taxes on luxury goods... this could probably only support a significantly smaller Fed. govt.

All that does is hurt the companies that produce luxury items. And the people employed there.
It is odd when one's capacity for compassion is measured not in what he is willing to do by his own time, effort, and property, but what he will force others to do with their own property instead.
collegekitchen7
Posts: 974
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 9:30:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 7:18:47 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/7/2010 6:55:52 AM, comoncents wrote:
And for you anarchist that will come on and say things like, "duh, I don't believe in taxes!"

I don't believe in income taxes!!

I'd kind of rather see sales taxes on luxury goods... this could probably only support a significantly smaller Fed. govt.

IMO that's bad economics.

taxing luxury goods causes incentives not to buy luxury goods. It also gives incentives to buy goods online from other countries. And it also gives other countries less incentives to buy our goods as the tax artificially raises their price.

Sales tax is a ridiculously bad idea.
: At 3/24/2010 1:38:15 PM, Mirza wrote:
: But it's human nature. You're born inside your mother, so what's wrong with having some sexual activity with her?

: At 3/18/2010 6:48:05 AM, kelly224 wrote:
: read some credible history books, unplug from the matrix.

: At 3/21/2010 4:13:56 PM, Scott_Mann wrote:
: Stocks would not go up 30% over something that hasn't even happened yet.

: At 3/21/2010 6:06:10 PM, banker wrote:
: It apears you have a wierd grasp of english..! its only second to
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 9:49:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 9:30:53 AM, collegekitchen7 wrote:
At 3/7/2010 7:18:47 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/7/2010 6:55:52 AM, comoncents wrote:
And for you anarchist that will come on and say things like, "duh, I don't believe in taxes!"

I don't believe in income taxes!!

I'd kind of rather see sales taxes on luxury goods... this could probably only support a significantly smaller Fed. govt.

IMO that's bad economics.

taxing luxury goods causes incentives not to buy luxury goods. It also gives incentives to buy goods online from other countries. And it also gives other countries less incentives to buy our goods as the tax artificially raises their price.

Sales tax is a ridiculously bad idea.

I don't think it is that bad, so far.

Fair tax?
I like it so far.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:03:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I love taxes, as long as their being spent on useful things rather than trillion dollar wars.

I think that the same percentage amount of taxes should be taken from everybody. I don't see any other way.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
collegekitchen7
Posts: 974
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:03:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 9:49:47 AM, comoncents wrote:
I don't think it is that bad, so far.

Fair tax?
I like it so far.

Well technically this forum is about 2 different things.

1. Income vs Sales Tax

2. Progressive vs Flat tax.

Sales tax is economically stupid as it artificially lowers the supply of goods thus causing less goods to be bought.

It is easier to avoid by buying luxuries elsewhere thus taxes have to be raised which furthers the incentive to avoid them which essentially leads to stagflation.

People don't stop working because of an income tax. However people do stop buying because of a sale tax.

http://i46.tinypic.com...

Essentially you could provide the same graph to labor, however businesses are not paying the taxes the employees are. So since the graph would be applied to the employee and people aren't going to be discouraged from working due to an income tax it doesn't apply whereas it does to sales taxes.

People can be dissuaded from buying luxuries. They can't be dissuaded from working.
: At 3/24/2010 1:38:15 PM, Mirza wrote:
: But it's human nature. You're born inside your mother, so what's wrong with having some sexual activity with her?

: At 3/18/2010 6:48:05 AM, kelly224 wrote:
: read some credible history books, unplug from the matrix.

: At 3/21/2010 4:13:56 PM, Scott_Mann wrote:
: Stocks would not go up 30% over something that hasn't even happened yet.

: At 3/21/2010 6:06:10 PM, banker wrote:
: It apears you have a wierd grasp of english..! its only second to
collegekitchen7
Posts: 974
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:05:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 11:03:44 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I love taxes, as long as their being spent on useful things rather than trillion dollar wars.

I think that the same percentage amount of taxes should be taken from everybody. I don't see any other way.

What are your feelings on Sales vs income tax?
: At 3/24/2010 1:38:15 PM, Mirza wrote:
: But it's human nature. You're born inside your mother, so what's wrong with having some sexual activity with her?

: At 3/18/2010 6:48:05 AM, kelly224 wrote:
: read some credible history books, unplug from the matrix.

: At 3/21/2010 4:13:56 PM, Scott_Mann wrote:
: Stocks would not go up 30% over something that hasn't even happened yet.

: At 3/21/2010 6:06:10 PM, banker wrote:
: It apears you have a wierd grasp of english..! its only second to
collegekitchen7
Posts: 974
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:06:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Furthermore on the issue of sales vs income.

With sales you are taxing non-income people (i.e. retirees, seniors, elderly people on a fixed income) while the income tax you aren't taxing these individuals.

With a sales tax you are taxing non US citizens with an income tax you are not taxing these individuals.
: At 3/24/2010 1:38:15 PM, Mirza wrote:
: But it's human nature. You're born inside your mother, so what's wrong with having some sexual activity with her?

: At 3/18/2010 6:48:05 AM, kelly224 wrote:
: read some credible history books, unplug from the matrix.

: At 3/21/2010 4:13:56 PM, Scott_Mann wrote:
: Stocks would not go up 30% over something that hasn't even happened yet.

: At 3/21/2010 6:06:10 PM, banker wrote:
: It apears you have a wierd grasp of english..! its only second to
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:14:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 11:03:44 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I love taxes, as long as their being spent on useful things rather than trillion dollar wars.

I think that the same percentage amount of taxes should be taken from everybody. I don't see any other way.

Try making a ton of money and watching how much they take.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:19:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 11:03:59 AM, collegekitchen7 wrote:
At 3/7/2010 9:49:47 AM, comoncents wrote:
I don't think it is that bad, so far.

Fair tax?
I like it so far.

Well technically this forum is about 2 different things.

1. Income vs Sales Tax

2. Progressive vs Flat tax.

Sales tax is economically stupid as it artificially lowers the supply of goods thus causing less goods to be bought.


If you do not have an income tax, you are making more money therefore it will not be much.
Corporate tax would be out, income tax will be out.
No more working under the table, so my taxes will not go up b/c of under the table work.
It will not cost goods to be bought less, if you had the money from the income tax.

It is easier to avoid by buying luxuries elsewhere thus taxes have to be raised which furthers the incentive to avoid them which essentially leads to stagflation.

People don't stop working because of an income tax. However people do stop buying because of a sale tax.


I have.
My wife has stopped taken over time b/c it is not worth it. She kills herself for little money.
She is a nurse and they are always calling b/c they are short.
She has to turn them down b/c it is not worth it.

We do it all of the time.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:21:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm in favour of progressive tax. The more you make, the more you're using and able to contribute to society, the more you should have to pay to maintain these services. Flat tax just plays a part in making the poor poorer.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:26:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 11:21:58 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm in favour of progressive tax. The more you make, the more you're using and able to contribute to society, the more you should have to pay to maintain these services. Flat tax just plays a part in making the poor poorer.

In other words, why should the poor have to pay for something they can't even afford to use?
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:27:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 11:06:49 AM, collegekitchen7 wrote:
Furthermore on the issue of sales vs income.

With sales you are taxing non-income people (i.e. retirees, seniors, elderly people on a fixed income) while the income tax you aren't taxing these individuals.

No, they have a prebate.
"Under the Fair Tax, you don't pay tax on your pension, you don't pay taxes on stock sales, you don't pay taxes on the proceeds of the sale of your house, you don't pay taxes on your savings account or withdrawals from your IRA.

You will also receive, untaxed until used to buy new goods or services, a prebate each and every month based on the number of people in your household. Not based on your income or marital status, but on the size of your household. As a senior, you will receive a smaller prebate than a young couple with a couple of kids, but then, you will not be spending as much for the basic necessities of life."

http://www.fairtax.org...
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:29:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 11:21:58 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm in favour of progressive tax. The more you make, the more you're using and able to contribute to society, the more you should have to pay to maintain these services. Flat tax just plays a part in making the poor poorer.

How?
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:30:27 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 11:26:06 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 3/7/2010 11:21:58 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm in favour of progressive tax. The more you make, the more you're using and able to contribute to society, the more you should have to pay to maintain these services. Flat tax just plays a part in making the poor poorer.

In other words, why should the poor have to pay for something they can't even afford to use?

You should really read about it.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:31:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 6:55:52 AM, comoncents wrote:
And for you anarchist that will come on and say things like, "duh, I don't believe in taxes!"

Look your system of government does not work, so please!
First, it's not just anarchists, second, anarchists don't have a system of government but a system of nongovernment.

Third, saying things don't work requires a demonstration.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
collegekitchen7
Posts: 974
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:32:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 11:19:32 AM, comoncents wrote:
If you do not have an income tax, you are making more money therefore it will not be much.
Yes
Corporate tax would be out, income tax will be out.
Yes
No more working under the table, so my taxes will not go up b/c of under the table work.
Assumption. People will always cheat taxes.
It will not cost goods to be bought less, if you had the money from the income tax.
Non Sequitur.

Non US citizens, non working members (elders), People making less than 5010 (college students).

These are the factions to which this statement does not apply.

I have.
Biased sample. Furthermore if your wife was taking in no income you would not stop working. Also I doubt you quit because of taxes.

My wife has stopped taken over time b/c it is not worth it. She kills herself for little money.
Again taking less work =/= being unemployed.
: At 3/24/2010 1:38:15 PM, Mirza wrote:
: But it's human nature. You're born inside your mother, so what's wrong with having some sexual activity with her?

: At 3/18/2010 6:48:05 AM, kelly224 wrote:
: read some credible history books, unplug from the matrix.

: At 3/21/2010 4:13:56 PM, Scott_Mann wrote:
: Stocks would not go up 30% over something that hasn't even happened yet.

: At 3/21/2010 6:06:10 PM, banker wrote:
: It apears you have a wierd grasp of english..! its only second to
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:34:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 11:05:08 AM, collegekitchen7 wrote:
At 3/7/2010 11:03:44 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I love taxes, as long as their being spent on useful things rather than trillion dollar wars.

I think that the same percentage amount of taxes should be taken from everybody. I don't see any other way.

What are your feelings on Sales vs income tax?

I see no problem with sales tax nor income tax. A lot of income tax money comes back to you at the end of the year anyways.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:36:40 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 11:32:18 AM, collegekitchen7 wrote:
It will not cost goods to be bought less, if you had the money from the income tax.
Non Sequitur.

Non US citizens, non working members (elders), People making less than 5010 (college students).


The truth: The FairTax actually eliminates and reimburses all federal taxes for those below the poverty line. This is accomplished through the universal prebate and by eliminating the highly regressive FICA payroll tax. Today, low and moderate income Americans pay far more in FICA taxes than income taxes. Those spending at twice the poverty level pay a FairTax of only 11.5 percent -- a rate much lower than the income and payroll tax burden they bear today. Meanwhile, the wealthy pay the 23 percent retail sales tax on their retail purchases.

Under the federal income tax, slow economic growth and recessions have a disproportionately adverse impact on lower-income families. Breadwinners in these families are more likely to lose their jobs, are less likely to have the resources to weather bad economic times, and are more in need of the initial employment opportunities that a dynamic, growing economy provides. Retaining the present tax system makes economic progress needlessly slow and frustrates attempts at upward mobility through hard work and savings, thus harming low-income taxpayers the most.

In contrast, the FairTax dramatically improves economic growth and wage rates for all, but especially for lower-income families and individuals. In addition to receiving the monthly FairTax prebate, these taxpayers are freed from regressive payroll taxes, the federal income tax, and the compliance burdens associated with each. They pay no more business taxes hidden in the price of goods and services, and used goods are tax free.

How can the FairTax generate lower net tax rates for everyone and still pay for the same real government expenditures? The answer is two-fold. Firstly, the tax base is dramatically widened by including consumer spending from the underground economy (estimated at $1.5 trillion annually), and by including illegal immigrants, those who escape their fair share today through loopholes and gimmicks. In addition, 40 million foreign tourists a year will become American taxpayers as consumers here. Secondly, not everyone's average net tax burden falls. For households whose major economic resource is accumulated wealth, the FairTax will deliver a net tax hike compared to the current system.

Consider, for example, your typical billionaire, of which America now has more than 400. These fortunate few are invested primarily in equities on which they pay taxes at a 15 percent rate, whether their income comes in the form of capital gains or dividends. In addition to having the income from their wealth taxed at a low rate, the principal of their wealth is completely untaxed either directly or indirectly. Assuming they and their heirs spend only the income earned on the wealth each year, the tax rate today is 15 percent. In contrast, under the FairTax, the effective tax rate is 23 percent. Hence, the very wealthy will pay more taxes when the FairTax is enacted. In a nutshell, those who spend more will pay more but low, moderate and middle income taxpayers will benefit from the greatest gains in reduced tax liabilities.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:36:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 11:14:29 AM, comoncents wrote:
At 3/7/2010 11:03:44 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I love taxes, as long as their being spent on useful things rather than trillion dollar wars.

I think that the same percentage amount of taxes should be taken from everybody. I don't see any other way.

Try making a ton of money and watching how much they take.

10% is 10% whether you make $3,000 a year or 3,000,000 a year.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:37:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 11:31:12 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 3/7/2010 6:55:52 AM, comoncents wrote:
And for you anarchist that will come on and say things like, "duh, I don't believe in taxes!"

Look your system of government does not work, so please!
First, it's not just anarchists, second, anarchists don't have a system of government but a system of nongovernment.


Sorry anarchist and your dumb a$$.
collegekitchen7
Posts: 974
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:37:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 11:27:32 AM, comoncents wrote:
No, they have a prebate.
"Under the Fair Tax, you don't pay tax on your pension, you don't pay taxes on stock sales, you don't pay taxes on the proceeds of the sale of your house, you don't pay taxes on your savings account or withdrawals from your IRA.

You will also receive, untaxed until used to buy new goods or services, a prebate each and every month based on the number of people in your household. Not based on your income or marital status, but on the size of your household. As a senior, you will receive a smaller prebate than a young couple with a couple of kids, but then, you will not be spending as much for the basic necessities of life."

Prebate idea is also economically backward as you receive the rebate before you purchase goods.

Meaning that I can withrdraw 10,000 from my IRA, receive a prebate. Save the prebate or spend it in another country thus making money off uncle sam and reducing tax collection. Meaning that all prebates can generate negative tax dollars which cost the working income that is being taxed through sales tax even higher than before.
: At 3/24/2010 1:38:15 PM, Mirza wrote:
: But it's human nature. You're born inside your mother, so what's wrong with having some sexual activity with her?

: At 3/18/2010 6:48:05 AM, kelly224 wrote:
: read some credible history books, unplug from the matrix.

: At 3/21/2010 4:13:56 PM, Scott_Mann wrote:
: Stocks would not go up 30% over something that hasn't even happened yet.

: At 3/21/2010 6:06:10 PM, banker wrote:
: It apears you have a wierd grasp of english..! its only second to
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:38:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 11:34:59 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/7/2010 11:05:08 AM, collegekitchen7 wrote:
At 3/7/2010 11:03:44 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I love taxes, as long as their being spent on useful things rather than trillion dollar wars.

I think that the same percentage amount of taxes should be taken from everybody. I don't see any other way.

What are your feelings on Sales vs income tax?

I see no problem with sales tax nor income tax. A lot of income tax money comes back to you at the end of the year anyways.

I make more than you and I pay a lot more than I get back.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:38:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 11:26:06 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 3/7/2010 11:21:58 AM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I'm in favour of progressive tax.

We know.

The more you make, the more you're using

Non sequitur.

able to contribute to society

People don't work for society, they work for themselves.

the more you should have to pay to maintain these services.

What services? The services that promote laziness, you mean? People should pay for their own services.

Flat tax just plays a part in making the poor poorer.

Right. Because it's so unfair that everybody is taxed at the same percentage. Everyone pays an equal percentage. The rich still pay much more.

In other words, why should the poor have to pay for something they can't even afford to use?

Why should the poor receive something that they do not deserve?

Taxing the rich just reduces incentives to become rich, which just hurts everyone.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:39:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 11:36:52 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/7/2010 11:14:29 AM, comoncents wrote:
At 3/7/2010 11:03:44 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
I love taxes, as long as their being spent on useful things rather than trillion dollar wars.

I think that the same percentage amount of taxes should be taken from everybody. I don't see any other way.

Try making a ton of money and watching how much they take.

10% is 10% whether you make $3,000 a year or 3,000,000 a year.

That is not how it works.
I get put in a different bracket than you do that has a higher %.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:40:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'd prefer to see user fees instead of taxes, with a slight surplus profit to allow for the funding of services that should have no fees at the point of service such as the NHS.

So a road tax/road toll system for car users for instance, but income tax, no capital gains tax, no corporation tax.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/7/2010 11:42:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/7/2010 11:40:41 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I'd prefer to see user fees instead of taxes

Free-rider problem.

with a slight surplus profit to allow for the funding of services that should have no fees at the point of service such as the NHS.

Uhh, what? Do you realize how much that costs? You can't fund that among other things simply with user fees.