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Palestinians are not really a nationality.

Chimera
Posts: 178
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8/6/2014 10:46:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I don't really see the point of this video. Just because the Palestinians never had a formal 'state' per se doesn't mean that the ancestors of people whom we call 'Palestinians' didn't live in the West Bank or the Gaza Strip. Palestinians (like all indigenous peoples) have a right to self-determination, even if their 'nationality' is an artificial creation. By the logic of this video, Syrian nationality is artificial as well (the term 'Syria' being created by the Romans to distinguish it from Assyria). However, we don't go around questioning whether Syria has a right to exist do we?
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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8/6/2014 10:58:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/6/2014 10:46:35 PM, Chimera wrote:
I don't really see the point of this video. Just because the Palestinians never had a formal 'state' per se doesn't mean that the ancestors of people whom we call 'Palestinians' didn't live in the West Bank or the Gaza Strip. Palestinians (like all indigenous peoples) have a right to self-determination, even if their 'nationality' is an artificial creation. By the logic of this video, Syrian nationality is artificial as well (the term 'Syria' being created by the Romans to distinguish it from Assyria). However, we don't go around questioning whether Syria has a right to exist do we?
Should everyone have self-determination on a state level? What about the many indigenous groups in South America? Should the immigrants in USA have a right to establish states of their own? At what point does a people get the right to form a state? Lastly, perhaps you can shed light on who Palestinians are.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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8/6/2014 11:02:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/6/2014 10:46:35 PM, Chimera wrote:
Palestinians (like all indigenous peoples) have a right to self-determination,
Additionally - I have not seen good evidence that Palestinians are indigenous to the area. They seem to have migrated to the area in recent modern periods. If you have evidence, present it.
Chimera
Posts: 178
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8/7/2014 12:48:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/6/2014 10:58:34 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 8/6/2014 10:46:35 PM, Chimera wrote:
I don't really see the point of this video. Just because the Palestinians never had a formal 'state' per se doesn't mean that the ancestors of people whom we call 'Palestinians' didn't live in the West Bank or the Gaza Strip. Palestinians (like all indigenous peoples) have a right to self-determination, even if their 'nationality' is an artificial creation. By the logic of this video, Syrian nationality is artificial as well (the term 'Syria' being created by the Romans to distinguish it from Assyria). However, we don't go around questioning whether Syria has a right to exist do we?
Should everyone have self-determination on a state level?

"All peoples have the rights of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."

This is part of the Charter of the United Nations and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. It is stated in Common Article 1, paragraph 1. I believe all peoples have a right to self-determination of this level. If their autonomy is threatened, then they may form states to further pursue their 'economic, social, and cultural development'.

What about the many indigenous groups in South America?

Many of these groups have already participated in self-determination by living in tribes. Self-determination doesn't necessarily imply secession/independence.

Should the immigrants in USA have a right to establish states of their own?

This isn't self-determination either. 'Immigrants' in the U.S. aren't necessarily a people. They are humans yes, but they don't really constitute a cultural group, since they are composed of many of these groups. They aren't really a collective people, but more a blending composition of such.

At what point does a people get the right to form a state?

When they have been denied the right to independence and their autonomy as a people has been threatened and/or hindered.

Lastly, perhaps you can shed light on who Palestinians are.

I can admit that calling them 'Palestinians' may not be a completely accurate way to name them (However, I would blame the British for that). But the people who we currently call 'Palestinians' (again, not an accurate title, but it stuck) are peoples who are descended from the Jews and Christians who used to live in the region. The video was accurate in the sense of the etymology of the term 'Palestine' being artificial and being created by the Romans. I don't think the British should have named the mandate 'Palestine', but it's too late to change it now.

Additionally - I have not seen good evidence that Palestinians are indigenous to the area. They seem to have migrated to the area in recent modern periods. If you have evidence, present it.

Most Palestinians are related to Christians and Jews who lived in the region for centuries (converting to Islam during the Muslim conquests of the region). If we are making a comparison to the right of Israeli self-determination and Palestinian self-determination, one can look at genetics. In the Y-chromosome pools of both ethnic groups, the 70% of the Israeli Jews tested belonged to the same pool as 82% of the Palestinian Muslims tested. So, they are not migrants. However, they hold a much different cultural background to the Jews since they (in theory) formed a separate identity after the Muslim conquests in the region, which radically transformed their culture and ideology. So, in a cultural sense, I think they have a right to self-determination since they have such a different culture to the Jewish people.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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8/7/2014 1:14:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/7/2014 12:48:23 AM, Chimera wrote:
"All peoples have the rights of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development."

This is part of the Charter of the United Nations and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. It is stated in Common Article 1, paragraph 1. I believe all peoples have a right to self-determination of this level. If their autonomy is threatened, then they may form states to further pursue their 'economic, social, and cultural development'.
I didn't ask for the opinion of the UN. In fact, I will gladly reject its authority on the matter.

Many of these groups have already participated in self-determination by living in tribes. Self-determination doesn't necessarily imply secession/independence.
Irrelevant. I asked whether or not every people should have right to self-determination on a state level.

This isn't self-determination either. 'Immigrants' in the U.S. aren't necessarily a people. They are humans yes, but they don't really constitute a cultural group, since they are composed of many of these groups. They aren't really a collective people, but more a blending composition of such.
Nor did I claim they were all one people. They have different groups among themselves, such as Muslims. Suppose the Muslims share very similar cultural values, all know Arabic, and so forth. Should they be able to form a state to say, practice Shari'a Law? Most countries would not allow independent courts to deal with their matters.

When they have been denied the right to independence and their autonomy as a people has been threatened and/or hindered.
In the case of Palestinians, there are many solutions rather than forming a state of their own. For instance, Palestine could be a political entity within Israel. This is the self-determination you are referring to.

I can admit that calling them 'Palestinians' may not be a completely accurate way to name them (However, I would blame the British for that). But the people who we currently call 'Palestinians' (again, not an accurate title, but it stuck) are peoples who are descended from the Jews and Christians who used to live in the region.
They share genetic similarities to MANY other groups of people, thus your argument does not hold. Why do they not go to Egypt and Jordan to ask for their right to self-determination?

Most Palestinians are related to Christians and Jews who lived in the region for centuries (converting to Islam during the Muslim conquests of the region). If we are making a comparison to the right of Israeli self-determination and Palestinian self-determination, one can look at genetics. In the Y-chromosome pools of both ethnic groups, the 70% of the Israeli Jews tested belonged to the same pool as 82% of the Palestinian Muslims tested. So, they are not migrants. However, they hold a much different cultural background to the Jews since they (in theory) formed a separate identity after the Muslim conquests in the region, which radically transformed their culture and ideology. So, in a cultural sense, I think they have a right to self-determination since they have such a different culture to the Jewish people.
Your argument is illogical. Suppose both share 90% of the genetic pool. However, the 10% of the Jews stems from the land of Israel, and the 10% of the Palestinians from Jordan. Additionally, suppose that the 90% they share is from Sardinia, Greece, Syria, Egypt, and so forth. This would still make the Jews more indigenous than the Palestinians in the land of Israel. However, if you are asserting that they have a right to self-determination in the "region" as opposed to Israel only, then this would mean that they have a right to seek self-determination in neighbouring countries.
Mineva
Posts: 336
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8/7/2014 6:45:52 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/6/2014 5:11:45 PM, Installgentoo wrote:
At 8/6/2014 12:30:04 PM, CountCheechula wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

Wow, a YouTube video! What academic journal did you get that from?

LoL

Actually Palestina area was a region with different folks, Jews were only one of these folks. As I read once upon a time they attacks other folks and creates their kingdom there. I think today what they constantly tells "we had a kingdom there" is the exactly this.
slo1
Posts: 4,354
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8/7/2014 6:53:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 8/6/2014 12:30:04 PM, CountCheechula wrote:
https://www.youtube.com...

So are you arguing that they are all Israelies and should be given immediate citizenship to Isreal?

The reality is that it is to isreal's percieved benefit to keep them as Palestinians so they may have an enemy that is not part of its own state. They also have a stated purpose of a jewish identity which is jepardized if too many non jews are allowed to become citizens. Thay is why they spend money to recruit Jews to emmigrate, but not on non jewish emmigration.