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Morals=Politics?

FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/19/2010 10:00:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Are our core more values linked to our political views?

In what way?

And which such particular morals?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/19/2010 10:03:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Morality is the code of which actions lead toward the achievement of which goals. It governs all action anyone has any choice about.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
TheSkeptic
Posts: 1,362
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3/19/2010 10:10:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 10:03:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Morality is the code of which actions lead toward the achievement of which goals. It governs all action anyone has any choice about.

*sigh*
Ragnar_Rahl
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3/19/2010 10:10:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 10:06:59 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Wasn't Machiavelli the one who said that morals should be separated from politics?

look very carefully at that statement.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
TheSkeptic
Posts: 1,362
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3/19/2010 10:19:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 10:10:55 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 3/19/2010 10:06:59 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Wasn't Machiavelli the one who said that morals should be separated from politics?

look very carefully at that statement.

1. To solve that math problem, you should remember the fundamental theorems I taught you.
2. To be morally virtuous, you should not murder the innocent for personal gain.

Look very carefully at these statements. Though there are similarities between the usage of should in some regards, the nature of these statements are much different.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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3/19/2010 10:20:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 10:06:59 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Wasn't Machiavelli the one who said that morals should be separated from politics?

Yes. But the purpose of government is not to stay in power.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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3/19/2010 10:21:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I don't understand what you guys are trying to get at. :S

On another note, my political views are largely influenced by morality.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/19/2010 10:28:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 10:19:06 PM, TheSkeptic wrote:
At 3/19/2010 10:10:55 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 3/19/2010 10:06:59 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Wasn't Machiavelli the one who said that morals should be separated from politics?

look very carefully at that statement.

1. To solve that math problem, you should remember the fundamental theorems I taught you.
2. To be morally virtuous, you should not murder the innocent for personal gain.

Look very carefully at these statements. Though there are similarities between the usage of should in some regards, the nature of these statements are much different.
No, there isn't. You have a goal, you act toward it.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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3/19/2010 10:29:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 10:21:41 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
I don't understand what you guys are trying to get at. :S

trying to imply that "morals should be separate from politics" is a moral claim.

and skeptic, given ragnar's def. both your sentences are moral claims as well.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
belle
Posts: 4,113
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3/19/2010 10:31:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
damn too late.

as for the topic at hand- the one no doubt informs the other. i can't imagine anyone advocating a political program that they thought to be immoral, except in the "ends justify the means" sort of sense.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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3/19/2010 10:32:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 10:31:46 PM, belle wrote:
as for the topic at hand- the one no doubt informs the other. i can't imagine anyone advocating a political program that they thought to be immoral, except in the "ends justify the means" sort of sense.

See conservative foreign policy. http://www.debate.org...
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
TheSkeptic
Posts: 1,362
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3/19/2010 10:36:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
No, there isn't. You have a goal, you act toward it.

Finding a superficial similarity doesn't equate morality to any form of reasoning.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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3/19/2010 10:38:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 10:32:46 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 3/19/2010 10:31:46 PM, belle wrote:
as for the topic at hand- the one no doubt informs the other. i can't imagine anyone advocating a political program that they thought to be immoral, except in the "ends justify the means" sort of sense.

See conservative foreign policy. http://www.debate.org...

yes but if we don't kill them they'll all become terrorists. hence, the ends justify the means
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/19/2010 10:42:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
No one has answered yet which morals mean what in relation to politics.

I heard once that conservatives were strict fathers, liberals were nurturing mothers and Libertarians were rebellious teenagers.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/19/2010 10:42:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 10:03:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Morality is the code of which actions lead toward the achievement of which goals. It governs all action anyone has any choice about.

Don't goals create a situation where you abandon morality to reach a certain goal no matter what? Means justify the end sort of thing.

I see no direct link between goals and morality.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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3/19/2010 10:45:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 10:42:38 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I heard once that conservatives were strict fathers, liberals were nurturing mothers and Libertarians were rebellious teenagers.

Sounds like just a saying.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/19/2010 11:02:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 10:42:43 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/19/2010 10:03:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Morality is the code of which actions lead toward the achievement of which goals. It governs all action anyone has any choice about.

Don't goals create a situation where you abandon morality to reach a certain goal no matter what? Means justify the end sort of thing.
No. Stupidity does. Morality defines how ends justify means. To claim that the end doesn't justify the means is incoherent as such, it's a bad way of saying that it isn't really your end after all.


I see no direct link between goals and morality.
So what the hell is your morality for then anyway?

Finding a superficial similarity doesn't equate morality to any form of reasoning.
There is nothing superficial about it. And I'll note you haven't noted the difference.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Scott_Mann
Posts: 278
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3/19/2010 11:19:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
"Politics is not religion and we should govern on the basis of evidence, not theology."
-Bill Clinton
The more posts you have, the less value they contain.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/19/2010 11:25:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 11:19:50 PM, Scott_Mann wrote:
"Politics is not religion and we should govern on the basis of evidence, not theology."
-Bill Clinton

Fortunately morality is not religion either.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Scott_Mann
Posts: 278
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3/19/2010 11:29:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 11:25:35 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 3/19/2010 11:19:50 PM, Scott_Mann wrote:
"Politics is not religion and we should govern on the basis of evidence, not theology."
-Bill Clinton

Fortunately morality is not religion either.

Under certain circumstances. But religion sets the basis for morality quite often.
The more posts you have, the less value they contain.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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3/20/2010 2:37:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 10:06:59 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Wasn't Machiavelli the one who said that morals should be separated from politics?

Yes... but he is commonly regarded as a bit evil.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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3/20/2010 4:59:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 10:42:38 PM, FREEDO wrote:
No one has answered yet which morals mean what in relation to politics.

I heard once that conservatives were strict fathers, liberals were nurturing mothers and Libertarians were rebellious teenagers.

george lakoff is kind of an idiot when it comes to politics :P

according to his book the liberal "metaphors" are the only ones that aren't totally warped and indicative of character flaw. in context "metaphor" means way of viewing the world that leads to political convictions. his book is an incredibly superficial overview of the differences between various political parties.

if you got the idea from somewhere else... well.... i got the idea from him.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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3/20/2010 6:27:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 10:00:54 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Are our core more values linked to our political views?


Yes, but it all depends on where your moral comes from?

In what way?


Morals should always be in the minds of our leaders

And which such particular morals?

Well, I believe in a social contract.
Morals come from what is socially acceptable.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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3/20/2010 6:29:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 10:20:50 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 3/19/2010 10:06:59 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Wasn't Machiavelli the one who said that morals should be separated from politics?

Yes. But the purpose of government is not to stay in power.

Exactly, he was writing with a monarchy in mind.
King/ Prince!
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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3/20/2010 12:08:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 2:37:50 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/19/2010 10:06:59 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Wasn't Machiavelli the one who said that morals should be separated from politics?

Yes... but he is commonly regarded as a bit evil.

Yea, I have had teachers and such who actually came out and said that he was inspiration for people such as Napoleon, Hitler, and Stalin.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/20/2010 12:16:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 12:08:35 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 3/20/2010 2:37:50 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/19/2010 10:06:59 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Wasn't Machiavelli the one who said that morals should be separated from politics?

Yes... but he is commonly regarded as a bit evil.

Yea, I have had teachers and such who actually came out and said that he was inspiration for people such as Napoleon, Hitler, and Stalin.

From what I could tell he offered no Moral Rationale for WHY Power ought to be centralized under one person... SO instead he was just writing a book on how to be a @sshole.

(though I've heard he alludes to some rationale or something... so I'm gonna reread it; I read it when I was a bit young)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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3/20/2010 12:29:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/19/2010 10:42:38 PM, FREEDO wrote:
No one has answered yet which morals mean what in relation to politics.

I heard once that conservatives were strict fathers, liberals were nurturing mothers and Libertarians were rebellious teenagers.

That statement refers to character and personality, not ethics.
Objectivist
Posts: 1
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4/2/2010 1:28:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Morals does not equal politics. Politics REST on a certain type of morals, or ethics speaking in terms associated with philosophy. Man needs ethics even if he is alone on a desert island. When devising their ethics, most philosophers skip a very important step. They do not ask WHY man needs ethics... what is he trying to achieve? They simply skip right to the what... as in what should ethics be? Ayn Rand was unique in that she stressed the importance of asking why. She came to the conclusion that the purpose of ethics is mans own life. Alone on a desert island, man needs a moral code to guide him in determining what actions are necessary to sustain, further, and fulfill his own life. Once this is understood, the branch of philosophy known as politics takes this moral code and extends it to man living in a social context. Since man's own life is the purpose of morality, and man's basic means of survival is his mind (through the process of reason), he needs a political climate that leaves him free to exercise his mind. The only system that achieves this is Capitalism, the political system that bans the initiation of force, the only thing that can negate man's mind.

Now, of course, this is coming from my perspective, a capitalist. However, I will demonstrate how the opposite morality and politics still follow the same pattern. An ethical code directly opposite of selfishness would be altruism. Alone on a desert island, man can decide that rather that living for himself, he should live "for the earth", or for some god's "will". This code of altruism, when extended to a social setting, leads man to any type of collectivist political system, whether it be socialism, communism, or a mixed welfare economy like we have today. If man has a sacrificial duty to God or the earth, and his purpose is not to further is own life, but to be altruistic, then it only stands to reason that this same morality should be applied to politics in the form of a system that forces him to sacrifice for his neighbors.