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Does the USA deserve to exist?

joshpleco23
Posts: 76
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3/20/2010 6:40:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
1. The land didn't belong to the people who formed it... And most of the land was stolen from the Indians.

2. The country claims to live by a philosophy where the people decide, however they do not.

3. The country has pushed itself in affairs which it has no business in.

With these free facts into consideration, I personally say no, but what do you say?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/20/2010 6:53:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 6:40:57 PM, joshpleco23 wrote:
1. The land didn't belong to the people who formed it... And most of the land was stolen from the Indians.
How do you steal something where there is no concept of property exactly?


2. The country claims to live by a philosophy where the people decide, however they do not.
There is no such entity as the people, and yet just about every country makes that claim.


3. The country has pushed itself in affairs which it has no business in.
Every government on earth is in affairs it has no business in.

That said, the US government does not deserve to continue to govern. However, no government on earth does, and the US one happens to be the least undeserving.

The USA itself is a jurisdiction, not a person or group of multiple persons, and so cannot deserve anything by definition, the lack of it deserving anything is without implications.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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3/20/2010 6:55:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 6:55:19 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Canada, the US, Australia, Israel, and probably many others were all created from stolen land, let we allow them to exist.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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3/20/2010 6:59:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 6:56:31 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
ffs, another typo. *yet

Hehe...
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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3/20/2010 7:01:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 6:59:46 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/20/2010 6:56:31 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
ffs, another typo. *yet

Hehe...

Yea... This site really needs an edit button...
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/20/2010 7:02:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 7:01:07 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 3/20/2010 6:59:46 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/20/2010 6:56:31 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
ffs, another typo. *yet

Hehe...

Yea... This site really needs an edit button...
Phil's too busy getting his button edited by Poejoe.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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3/20/2010 7:02:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 7:01:07 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 3/20/2010 6:59:46 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/20/2010 6:56:31 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
ffs, another typo. *yet

Hehe...

Yea... This site really needs an edit button...

Yea, that would be awesome!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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3/20/2010 7:13:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 7:01:07 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 3/20/2010 6:59:46 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/20/2010 6:56:31 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
ffs, another typo. *yet

Hehe...

Yea... This site really needs an edit button...

That's what she said!!!!!!!
banker
Posts: 1,370
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3/20/2010 7:52:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Their is a movement suggesting the indians where muslims,and we are on occupied land..!

The term occupents are reserved to infidels.!! While immigrents are reserved for muslims..!!!

Therefore when indians who have been islamic got here. It was migration,then we came it was occupation..!!!
the most important source for muslim Arabs:

"And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".

- Qur'an 17:104 -

Any sincere muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

Ibn Khaldun, one of the most creditable
collegekitchen7
Posts: 974
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3/20/2010 7:57:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 6:55:19 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Israel we shouldn't allow them to exist...! suicide bomb them...! wipe them from the earth...!

Banker
: At 3/24/2010 1:38:15 PM, Mirza wrote:
: But it's human nature. You're born inside your mother, so what's wrong with having some sexual activity with her?

: At 3/18/2010 6:48:05 AM, kelly224 wrote:
: read some credible history books, unplug from the matrix.

: At 3/21/2010 4:13:56 PM, Scott_Mann wrote:
: Stocks would not go up 30% over something that hasn't even happened yet.

: At 3/21/2010 6:06:10 PM, banker wrote:
: It apears you have a wierd grasp of english..! its only second to
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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3/20/2010 7:59:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 7:54:10 PM, Koopin wrote:
Indians fought other Indians for this land.

NATIVE TRIBES!!!!!!!!!!! I despise when people refer to Natives as "Indians." I find it INSULTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (And I usually don't care what people say. For instance, I get pissed off at those "That's so gay" commercials because the phrase itself is protected under the First Amendment. Those types of liberals piss me off.
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
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3/20/2010 8:01:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 7:59:53 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
At 3/20/2010 7:54:10 PM, Koopin wrote:
Indians fought other Indians for this land.

NATIVE TRIBES!!!!!!!!!!! I despise when people refer to Natives as "Indians." I find it INSULTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (And I usually don't care what people say. For instance, I get pissed off at those "That's so gay" commercials because the phrase itself is protected under the First Amendment. Those types of liberals piss me off.

your comment is so gay....
kfc
collegekitchen7
Posts: 974
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3/20/2010 8:01:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 7:59:53 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
NATIVE TRIBES!!!!!!!!!!! I despise when people refer to Natives as "Indians."

They is not native tribess they is indians plain and simple
: At 3/24/2010 1:38:15 PM, Mirza wrote:
: But it's human nature. You're born inside your mother, so what's wrong with having some sexual activity with her?

: At 3/18/2010 6:48:05 AM, kelly224 wrote:
: read some credible history books, unplug from the matrix.

: At 3/21/2010 4:13:56 PM, Scott_Mann wrote:
: Stocks would not go up 30% over something that hasn't even happened yet.

: At 3/21/2010 6:06:10 PM, banker wrote:
: It apears you have a wierd grasp of english..! its only second to
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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3/20/2010 8:02:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 8:01:46 PM, collegekitchen7 wrote:
At 3/20/2010 7:59:53 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
NATIVE TRIBES!!!!!!!!!!! I despise when people refer to Natives as "Indians."

They is not native tribess they is indians plain and simple

Indians are people from india.
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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3/20/2010 8:03:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 8:02:27 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 3/20/2010 8:01:46 PM, collegekitchen7 wrote:
At 3/20/2010 7:59:53 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
NATIVE TRIBES!!!!!!!!!!! I despise when people refer to Natives as "Indians."

They is not native tribess they is indians plain and simple

Indians are people from india.

I KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/20/2010 8:14:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 8:13:01 PM, Puck wrote:
http://img440.imageshack.us...

Epic win.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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3/20/2010 9:39:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 6:40:57 PM, joshpleco23 wrote:
1. The land didn't belong to the people who formed it... And most of the land was stolen from the Indians.


We did not steal anything. It was not their property.

2. The country claims to live by a philosophy where the people decide, however they do not.


What are you talking about? We live by a philosophy that the people decide its representatives and last time I checked we still do.

3. The country has pushed itself in affairs which it has no business in.


Ok.

With these free facts into consideration, I personally say no, but what do you say?

I would say that your crazy if you believe these things.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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3/21/2010 12:25:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 9:39:20 PM, comoncents wrote:
We did not steal anything. It was not their property.

Well to be fair, there were there first.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/21/2010 4:40:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 12:25:46 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 3/20/2010 9:39:20 PM, comoncents wrote:
We did not steal anything. It was not their property.

Well to be fair, there were there first.

But they didn't claim it as property.

Say there's a fish. I look around at all the people there. "Is this your fish?" Nope. I continue asking till I have asked everyone, they all say nope, it's not their fish. So I eat the fish, and all of a sudden they start yelling at me about taking their fish. I'm like "WTF dude, you said it's not your fish."
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Sky_ace25
Posts: 190
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3/21/2010 7:27:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 6:40:57 PM, joshpleco23 wrote:
1. The land didn't belong to the people who formed it... And most of the land was stolen from the Indians.

Define "Stolen", The Indians didn't believe in ownership of the land, thus they did not own it. (egalitarianism) We came and claimed something that was always there and was owned by nobody. Further more the Indians did not "form" the land. The land was "formed" by the splitting of the enormous super-continent Pangaea.

2. The country claims to live by a philosophy where the people decide, however they do not.
Who claims this philosophy? The founding fathers didn't trust the people they considered the "uneducated masses". There is this mentality that exists where Americans believe this country was founded for the people to decide. This is false, and you will find in almost every single country that the more powerful have the most influence. Also, I would like to point out that usually most people who are active in politics are wealthy and old. Thus, it makes sense that they usually enjoy the most benefits.
3. The country has pushed itself in affairs which it has no business in.
A country has the right to intervene with any affair it wishes. This is our ability to act and exert our power. here is no such thing as an affair we have "no business in". For all intended purposes if we wanted to annex Iraq we could annex Iraq. We CHOOSE not to.
With these free facts into consideration, I personally say no, but what do you say?
We are a major Super-power, low taxes (until obamacare passes), and we give some of the most fundamental rights to human beings that are denied by a general majority of countries. Honestly, if the U.S. should be dissolved, by your criteria, you might as well be arguing for a worldly state of anarchy.
Seriously, Pluto is no longer a planet?
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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3/22/2010 6:02:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
The claim that the land of the native americans was not stolen because they had no concept of ownership is absurd and dishonest.

They were clearly there, they clearly used the land to survive, they clearly had a concept that they were using the land for survival. The idea that because they did not carve it up in arbitary lines or have estate agents they did not really own it, is nonsense.

Quite simply their claim on the land was denied because they did not have the military power to enforce, lets be honest here and not resort to arguments that are essentially racist, and more importantly no one believes.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
kelly224
Posts: 952
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3/22/2010 9:17:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 6:53:34 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 3/20/2010 6:40:57 PM, joshpleco23 wrote:
1. The land didn't belong to the people who formed it... And most of the land was stolen from the Indians.
How do you steal something where there is no concept of property exactly?


2. The country claims to live by a philosophy where the people decide, however they do not.
There is no such entity as the people, and yet just about every country makes that claim.


3. The country has pushed itself in affairs which it has no business in.
Every government on earth is in affairs it has no business in.

That said, the US government does not deserve to continue to govern. However, no government on earth does, and the US one happens to be the least undeserving.

The USA itself is a jurisdiction, not a person or group of multiple persons, and so cannot deserve anything by definition, the lack of it deserving anything is without implications.

Does your questions raised answer what the OP asked?...No they don't. SO just because the Indians were not blood thirsty expansionists, then they had no right to govern how they saw fit?...This is typical misguided logic in the form of truth.

To disregard the significance of the American Indians would nullify their assistance to the settlers who would have perished had it not been for the "savages" that helped them make it through.

American history books have given our country this arrogant mentality as to think that "God Bless America" is supposed to diminish the sovereign right of other nations to peacefully coexist for the "terrorists with etiquette" who comprise the moral majority.
kelly224
Posts: 952
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3/22/2010 9:18:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 6:55:19 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
Canada, the US, Australia, Israel, and probably many others were all created from stolen, let we allow them to exist.

so that is supposed to justify it?...Just because Tom, Jane, and Sally are doing it, we are justified?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/22/2010 12:26:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/22/2010 9:17:52 AM, kelly224 wrote:
At 3/20/2010 6:53:34 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 3/20/2010 6:40:57 PM, joshpleco23 wrote:
1. The land didn't belong to the people who formed it... And most of the land was stolen from the Indians.
How do you steal something where there is no concept of property exactly?


2. The country claims to live by a philosophy where the people decide, however they do not.
There is no such entity as the people, and yet just about every country makes that claim.


3. The country has pushed itself in affairs which it has no business in.
Every government on earth is in affairs it has no business in.

That said, the US government does not deserve to continue to govern. However, no government on earth does, and the US one happens to be the least undeserving.

The USA itself is a jurisdiction, not a person or group of multiple persons, and so cannot deserve anything by definition, the lack of it deserving anything is without implications.

Does your questions raised answer what the OP asked?...No they don't. SO just because the Indians were not blood thirsty expansionists, then they had no right to govern how they saw fit?
No one has a right to "govern as they see fit." They have a right to govern only insofar as they do not violate anyone else's rights.

And btw many tribes were "blood thirsty expansionists". The Aztecs among others.


To disregard the significance of the American Indians would nullify their assistance to the settlers who would have perished had it not been for the "savages" that helped them make it through.
How is this relevant to anything?


American history books have given our country this arrogant mentality as to think that "God Bless America" is supposed to diminish the sovereign right of other nations
Sovereignty is not a right. Property is, and it is alienated the moment you violate someone else's right. Currently, no government on earth has any rights. The US is closest to doing so, therefore I support it as the least of evils.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.