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Libertarian Socialism

FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/21/2010 6:18:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I have been called out on Libertarian Socialism. I will now explain what it is and why it is not a contradiction in terms.

People are constantly confused about what Socialism really is because they only see one type of it and that's state-socialism. Even as an Anarcho-Capitalist I knew this.

Stat-socialism eliminates the very purpose of Socialism which is to eliminate the Capitalist hierarchy. The state itself is a hierarchy so this makes no sense.

State=Hierarchy

Capitalism=Hierarchy

Libertarian=Supporter of liberty

Hierarchy=Anti-Liberty

Socialism=Anti-Capitalism

Libertarian Socialism=As much absence of hierarchy as possible

There is no contradiction in terms.

Another hierarchy which I seek to get rid of, that I have already made a thread on, is that of the educational system which would be permitted in an Anarcho-Capitalist society.

I seek two things in a political system: Freedom and cooperation; the keys to a civil society.

Discuss.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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3/21/2010 6:25:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:18:50 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I seek two things in a political system: Freedom and cooperation; the keys to a civil society.

Are you against hierarchies that are voluntary and have nothing to do with you?
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/21/2010 6:29:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
And more to the point, are you prepared to create a hierarchy that consists of the people who tell everyone else that they can't create hierarchies being above those who get told they can't create hierarchies?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
FREEDO
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3/21/2010 6:29:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:25:15 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:18:50 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I seek two things in a political system: Freedom and cooperation; the keys to a civil society.

Are you against hierarchies that are voluntary and have nothing to do with you?

That is a VERY good question. I would say that letting Capitalism go on will indeed end up influencing me because corporations and the such become extremely powerful.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/21/2010 6:30:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:29:58 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:25:15 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:18:50 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I seek two things in a political system: Freedom and cooperation; the keys to a civil society.

Are you against hierarchies that are voluntary and have nothing to do with you?

That is a VERY good question. I would say that letting Capitalism go on will indeed end up influencing me because corporations and the such become extremely powerful.
Therefore you intend to snatch up the power to stop them.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/21/2010 6:31:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:29:40 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
And more to the point, are you prepared to create a hierarchy that consists of the people who tell everyone else that they can't create hierarchies being above those who get told they can't create hierarchies?

I acknowledge that the complete absence of hierarchy is sadly just impossible. I want whatever infrastructure would cause the least.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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3/21/2010 6:32:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:29:58 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:25:15 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:18:50 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I seek two things in a political system: Freedom and cooperation; the keys to a civil society.

Are you against hierarchies that are voluntary and have nothing to do with you?

That is a VERY good question. I would say that letting Capitalism go on will indeed end up influencing me because corporations and the such become extremely powerful.

See R_R's post. It would have been my response.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/21/2010 6:32:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:30:52 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:29:58 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:25:15 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:18:50 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I seek two things in a political system: Freedom and cooperation; the keys to a civil society.

Are you against hierarchies that are voluntary and have nothing to do with you?

That is a VERY good question. I would say that letting Capitalism go on will indeed end up influencing me because corporations and the such become extremely powerful.
Therefore you intend to snatch up the power to stop them.

Yes, I want to stop imperialism.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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3/21/2010 6:33:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:18:50 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I have been called out on Libertarian Socialism. I will now explain what it is and why it is not a contradiction in terms.

People are constantly confused about what Socialism really is because they only see one type of it and that's state-socialism. Even as an Anarcho-Capitalist I knew this.

Stat-socialism eliminates the very purpose of Socialism which is to eliminate the Capitalist hierarchy. The state itself is a hierarchy so this makes no sense.

State=Hierarchy

Capitalism=Hierarchy

Libertarian=Supporter of liberty

Hierarchy=Anti-Liberty

Socialism=Anti-Capitalism

Libertarian Socialism=As much absence of hierarchy as possible

There is no contradiction in terms.

Another hierarchy which I seek to get rid of, that I have already made a thread on, is that of the educational system which would be permitted in an Anarcho-Capitalist society.

I seek two things in a political system: Freedom and cooperation; the keys to a civil society.

Discuss.

How would "libertarian socialism" handle such hierarchies? What entity endowed with power would check other hierarchies and what would prevent that from itself becoming a hierarchy?

Would there be a monopoly on force or on power?

Why should voluntary agreements be subject to undesired third party involvement?

How would hierarchies develop under a purely capitalistic system?

How is capitalism a hierarchy?

What ethical justification is there for the forced transfer of wealth?

What agent or entity would facilitate this transfer of wealth?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/21/2010 6:33:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
btw, there are only two coherent ways to get rid of the hierarchy which places the living above the dead. Universal necromancy (not possible and if it were it would require a hierarchy to enforce the provision of necromancy), or universal murder. Of these two coherent ways, the only possible one is a murderer, therefore, opposition to hierarchy is in actual fact opposition to life itself.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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3/21/2010 6:33:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:31:52 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:29:40 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
And more to the point, are you prepared to create a hierarchy that consists of the people who tell everyone else that they can't create hierarchies being above those who get told they can't create hierarchies?

I acknowledge that the complete absence of hierarchy is sadly just impossible. I want whatever infrastructure would cause the least.

So is this Librertarian Socialism a brand of Anarcho-Capitalism or something?
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/21/2010 6:35:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:33:24 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
btw, there are only two coherent ways to get rid of the hierarchy which places the living above the dead. Universal necromancy (not possible and if it were it would require a hierarchy to enforce the provision of necromancy), or universal murder. Of these two coherent ways, the only possible one is a murderer, therefore, opposition to hierarchy is in actual fact opposition to life itself.

Haha, yur silly.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/21/2010 6:35:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:33:41 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:31:52 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:29:40 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
And more to the point, are you prepared to create a hierarchy that consists of the people who tell everyone else that they can't create hierarchies being above those who get told they can't create hierarchies?

I acknowledge that the complete absence of hierarchy is sadly just impossible. I want whatever infrastructure would cause the least.

So is this Librertarian Socialism a brand of Anarcho-Capitalism or something?

Closer to Anarcho-Syndicalism.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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3/21/2010 6:35:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:33:41 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:31:52 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:29:40 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
And more to the point, are you prepared to create a hierarchy that consists of the people who tell everyone else that they can't create hierarchies being above those who get told they can't create hierarchies?

I acknowledge that the complete absence of hierarchy is sadly just impossible. I want whatever infrastructure would cause the least.

So is this Librertarian Socialism a brand of Anarcho-Capitalism or something?

I take that back, I reread OP.

Read J Kenyon's post.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/21/2010 6:36:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:35:10 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:33:24 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
btw, there are only two coherent ways to get rid of the hierarchy which places the living above the dead. Universal necromancy (not possible and if it were it would require a hierarchy to enforce the provision of necromancy), or universal murder. Of these two coherent ways, the only possible one is a murderer, therefore, opposition to hierarchy is in actual fact opposition to life itself.

Haha, yur silly.
Whatever, life-abolitionist.

lifehater.

Biophobe.

Ooh, I like that one, biophobe.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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3/21/2010 6:37:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:36:14 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:35:10 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:33:24 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
btw, there are only two coherent ways to get rid of the hierarchy which places the living above the dead. Universal necromancy (not possible and if it were it would require a hierarchy to enforce the provision of necromancy), or universal murder. Of these two coherent ways, the only possible one is a murderer, therefore, opposition to hierarchy is in actual fact opposition to life itself.

Haha, yur silly.
Whatever, life-abolitionist.

lifehater.

Biophobe.

Ooh, I like that one, biophobe.

It's called "environmentalist" conventionally, just so you know.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/21/2010 6:39:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:37:15 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:36:14 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:35:10 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:33:24 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
btw, there are only two coherent ways to get rid of the hierarchy which places the living above the dead. Universal necromancy (not possible and if it were it would require a hierarchy to enforce the provision of necromancy), or universal murder. Of these two coherent ways, the only possible one is a murderer, therefore, opposition to hierarchy is in actual fact opposition to life itself.

Haha, yur silly.
Whatever, life-abolitionist.

lifehater.

Biophobe.

Ooh, I like that one, biophobe.

It's called "environmentalist" conventionally, just so you know.

No, those are sentiphobes. They still want life, just not human life-- they want to save endangered whales and slugs and ****.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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3/21/2010 6:40:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:39:12 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:37:15 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:36:14 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:35:10 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:33:24 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
btw, there are only two coherent ways to get rid of the hierarchy which places the living above the dead. Universal necromancy (not possible and if it were it would require a hierarchy to enforce the provision of necromancy), or universal murder. Of these two coherent ways, the only possible one is a murderer, therefore, opposition to hierarchy is in actual fact opposition to life itself.

Haha, yur silly.
Whatever, life-abolitionist.

lifehater.

Biophobe.

Ooh, I like that one, biophobe.

It's called "environmentalist" conventionally, just so you know.

No, those are sentiphobes. They still want life, just not human life-- they want to save endangered whales and slugs and ****.

Oooohh..... okay.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/21/2010 6:42:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:33:02 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:

How would "libertarian socialism" handle such hierarchies? What entity endowed with power would check other hierarchies and what would prevent that from itself becoming a hierarchy?

Like I've said, I don't claim it wouldn't be. I want some sort of enforcement which would cause the least possible hierarchy.

Would there be a monopoly on force or on power?

It really depends, I'm back and forth on it. It could be Minarcho or Anarcho.

Why should voluntary agreements be subject to undesired third party involvement?

Because they grow so much in power that it does eventually effect the third party.

How would hierarchies develop under a purely capitalistic system?

Assuming it is in itself one, that's a given.

How is capitalism a hierarchy?

Seriously? Your "boss" gets basically tyrannical control over you.

What ethical justification is there for the forced transfer of wealth?

I have a blog post on that if you'd like to see.

What agent or entity would facilitate this transfer of wealth?

I don't know.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/21/2010 6:44:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Seriously? Your "boss" gets basically tyrannical control over you.
Tyrant: Obey.

Capitalism: Obey or gtfo off mah property.

See the difference? It's an important one, it's called a choice ^_^.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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3/21/2010 6:45:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:42:51 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:33:02 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:

How is capitalism a hierarchy?

Seriously? Your "boss" gets basically tyrannical control over you.

1) The employer is generally supposed to determine policy, so yeah.

2) Don't like it? Quit.

What ethical justification is there for the forced transfer of wealth?

I have a blog post on that if you'd like to see.

Summarize.

What agent or entity would facilitate this transfer of wealth?

I don't know.

Yeah, thought so.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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3/21/2010 6:46:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:42:51 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:33:02 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
What ethical justification is there for the forced transfer of wealth?

I have a blog post on that if you'd like to see.
Summarize.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/21/2010 6:47:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:36:29 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Okay, so here's the thing: Let's say, somehow, you achieve this abolition of hierarchy. Now, what do you do when someone tries to achieve a little bit more than your brand of "equality" allows for? Are you banning overachievement?

If by overachievent you mean exploitation than yes.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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3/21/2010 6:49:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:47:58 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:36:29 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Okay, so here's the thing: Let's say, somehow, you achieve this abolition of hierarchy. Now, what do you do when someone tries to achieve a little bit more than your brand of "equality" allows for? Are you banning overachievement?

If by overachievent you mean exploitation than yes.

I'm exploiting beans, beef, tomatoes, and peppers right now. It's delicious.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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3/21/2010 6:49:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Amen, Comrade FREEDO. Amen.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/21/2010 6:49:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:44:23 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Seriously? Your "boss" gets basically tyrannical control over you.
Tyrant: Obey.

Capitalism: Obey or gtfo off mah property.

See the difference? It's an important one, it's called a choice ^_^.

The state forces you into it's will while Capitalism manipulates you into it. And once a Capitalist entity becomes powerful enough it basically becomes a state.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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3/21/2010 6:50:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:47:58 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:36:29 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
Okay, so here's the thing: Let's say, somehow, you achieve this abolition of hierarchy. Now, what do you do when someone tries to achieve a little bit more than your brand of "equality" allows for? Are you banning overachievement?

If by overachievent you mean exploitation than yes.

Nope. That's not what I mean. Speaking of the "if-by-X" thing, though, welcome to Fallacyland. Jackass. :) http://en.wikipedia.org...

So, anyway, every time one person outperforms another, they should be chastised for "exploiting" the failings of their fellow workers, and not rewarded? My question is, why is every instance of high performance classified by you as "exploitation"?
belle
Posts: 4,113
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3/21/2010 6:51:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
by eliminating capitalism (dare i say banning it?) you automatically limit freedom of action. teh contradiction stands.

on the other hand, if you don't ban capitalism then how is your system "anti-capitalist"? indoctrination? lol

and really, if your answer most questions is "i don't know" you have some work to do...
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/21/2010 6:51:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/21/2010 6:46:54 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:42:51 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 3/21/2010 6:33:02 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
What ethical justification is there for the forced transfer of wealth?

I have a blog post on that if you'd like to see.
Summarize.

How it works now is this:

A certain person has acquired money somehow. They may have earned it through work, they may have not.

They buy property to start a business. They privately own this property; only they can decide what to do with it.

If there is high consumer demand for the products this business offers than it grows larger.

The larger it grows, the harder it is to operate with less people operating it.

The owner must hire workers.

The owner hires these workers by offering them a certain amount of money from that raked in by the business.

The implication of this is that the workers are required to work harder for less money that the owner would have to if he was operating their job because he is now keeping the difference.

The owner makes more simply because he already has more. In other words; the richer you are, the easier it is to get richer. While those on the bottom remain stuck with less no matter how hard they work.

Though it operates upon voluntary consent of the workers, the workers don't realize what is being done to them.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord