Total Posts:122|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Government Vs. Children

FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 7:59:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
To what extent should the government have a say in what children can and cannot do? And why?
Should children be able to smoke, drink and have sex?
Is there a theory of principle behind this or is your answer simply based off of consequence?
If you do answer no and it is because of consequence does that logic not also expand to giving the government that power over adults as well?

NOTE: I'm just asking questions, not making statements...besides this one.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:11:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Children should be held to the same standard as adults, clearly. Obviously they have the same capacity to rationally make decisions - even if they don't even yet have a proper grasp of the English language to even understand what laws exist and don't exist. Libertarians are totally right. Why don't we give 5 year olds drivers licenses to boot (assuming they have tools to reach the pedals, like midgets do). I mean, why would we not give them to 5 year olds but give them to 16 year olds? Also, parents who forbid their 4 year olds from having sex with 40 year olds are wrong for infringing upon their kid's rights. We should essentially let children do whatever they want, and if they happen to be raped or taken advantage of in some way, I guess that's their problem. I'm sure that will make society a better place with mentally well citizens.
President of DDO
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:12:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:11:04 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Children should be held to the same standard as adults, clearly. Obviously they have the same capacity to rationally make decisions - even if they don't even yet have a proper grasp of the English language to even understand what laws exist and don't exist. Libertarians are totally right. Why don't we give 5 year olds drivers licenses to boot (assuming they have tools to reach the pedals, like midgets do). I mean, why would we not give them to 5 year olds but give them to 16 year olds? Also, parents who forbid their 4 year olds from having sex with 40 year olds are wrong for infringing upon their kid's rights. We should essentially let children do whatever they want, and if they happen to be raped or taken advantage of in some way, I guess that's their problem. I'm sure that will make society a better place with mentally well citizens.

I really can't tell if you are joking or not.
kfc
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:13:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:11:04 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Children should be held to the same standard as adults, clearly. Obviously they have the same capacity to rationally make decisions - even if they don't even yet have a proper grasp of the English language to even understand what laws exist and don't exist. Libertarians are totally right. Why don't we give 5 year olds drivers licenses to boot (assuming they have tools to reach the pedals, like midgets do). I mean, why would we not give them to 5 year olds but give them to 16 year olds? Also, parents who forbid their 4 year olds from having sex with 40 year olds are wrong for infringing upon their kid's rights. We should essentially let children do whatever they want, and if they happen to be raped or taken advantage of in some way, I guess that's their problem. I'm sure that will make society a better place with mentally well citizens.

So in other words, by consequence it's ok.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:14:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:12:51 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 3/23/2010 8:11:04 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Children should be held to the same standard as adults, clearly. Obviously they have the same capacity to rationally make decisions - even if they don't even yet have a proper grasp of the English language to even understand what laws exist and don't exist. Libertarians are totally right. Why don't we give 5 year olds drivers licenses to boot (assuming they have tools to reach the pedals, like midgets do). I mean, why would we not give them to 5 year olds but give them to 16 year olds? Also, parents who forbid their 4 year olds from having sex with 40 year olds are wrong for infringing upon their kid's rights. We should essentially let children do whatever they want, and if they happen to be raped or taken advantage of in some way, I guess that's their problem. I'm sure that will make society a better place with mentally well citizens.

I really can't tell if you are joking or not.

But I can tell that YOU are.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:15:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:14:14 PM, FREEDO wrote:

But I can tell that YOU are.

In what? That the Government should not have complete control over the schools?
kfc
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:16:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:11:04 PM, theLwerd wrote:
Children should be held to the same standard as adults, clearly.

I disagree.

Obviously they have the same capacity to rationally make decisions

There has been come scientific evidence that shows that this tends not to be the case.

- even if they don't even yet have a proper grasp of the English language to even understand what laws exist and don't exist.

I don't even understand what laws do and s not exist. There are os many of them I don't think anyone knows all of them.

Libertarians are totally right.

That goes without saying.

Why don't we give 5 year olds drivers licenses to boot (assuming they have tools to reach the pedals, like midgets do).

That assumes that drivers licenses are legitimate.

I mean, why would we not give them to 5 year olds but give them to 16 year olds?

You make a good point.

Also, parents who forbid their 4 year olds from having sex with 40 year olds are wrong for infringing upon their kid's rights.

That depends on what you mean by forbid.

We should essentially let children do whatever they want,

I disagree.

and if they happen to be raped or taken advantage of in some way, I guess that's their problem.

Well that would be their problem but I would hope that you would also be concerned.

I'm sure that will make society a better place with mentally well citizens.

Citizen is a derogatory term. Please use individual.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:17:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:15:58 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 3/23/2010 8:14:14 PM, FREEDO wrote:

But I can tell that YOU are.

In what? That the Government should not have complete control over the schools?

No, you were kidding that you didn't know she was kidding. Cause if you really didn't that would make you pretty stupid, which I don't think you are.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:19:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:17:34 PM, FREEDO wrote:

No, you were kidding that you didn't know she was kidding. Cause if you really didn't that would make you pretty stupid, which I don't think you are.

Depends on the definition of stupid. If it's not knowing if L is being sarcastic or not, than yes, I am stupid.
kfc
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:19:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:19:01 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 3/23/2010 8:17:34 PM, FREEDO wrote:

No, you were kidding that you didn't know she was kidding. Cause if you really didn't that would make you pretty stupid, which I don't think you are.

Depends on the definition of stupid. If it's not knowing if L is being sarcastic or not, than yes, I am stupid.

I try not to stalk L like everyone else does, so I don't really know her views.
kfc
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:20:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:19:01 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 3/23/2010 8:17:34 PM, FREEDO wrote:

No, you were kidding that you didn't know she was kidding. Cause if you really didn't that would make you pretty stupid, which I don't think you are.

Depends on the definition of stupid. If it's not knowing if L is being sarcastic or not, than yes, I am stupid.

Alrighty then, thanks for clearing that up. :)
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:22:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:22:03 PM, Koopin wrote:
And your views on Government and Children are what?

Don't know, that why I'm asking.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:23:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:22:03 PM, Koopin wrote:
And your views on Government and Children are what?

"If the individual has a right to govern himself, all external government is tyranny." - Benjamin Tucker
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:24:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Why don't we give 5 year olds drivers licenses to boot (assuming they have tools to reach the pedals, like midgets do). I mean, why would we not give them to 5 year olds but give them to 16 year olds?
The license to drive on a given road is or should be a contractual privilege? The ability to drive on one's OWN road or the road of any parties that consent to it is the right-- and if any 5 year olds happen to own a road they should be free to drive on it. But it is a stupid business model for a road owner to allow them on a road that exists for everyday transportation purposes. Now, the road owner has the right to do it, and the kid has the right to accept, but the road owner can't claim he's operating much of a safe road without at least a competence test more comprehensive than looking at birth dates anyway.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:24:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:23:12 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I tend to be very pro-youth rights.

Do you think children above the age of 13 should be allowed to drink and smoke?
kfc
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:24:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:23:12 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I tend to be very pro-youth rights.

Yes!

"A racist will state many reasons as to why a certain race is undeserving of equal treatment and respect. A misogynist can list a myriad of reasons as to why women are inferior to men as a gender. As with other forms of irrational group prejudice, the ageist will provide you with many excuses for treating children with less regard and respect than they themselves deserve to be treated." - James C. Talbot
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:26:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:24:39 PM, Koopin wrote:
At 3/23/2010 8:23:12 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I tend to be very pro-youth rights.

Do you think children above the age of 13 should be allowed to drink and smoke?

Probably somewhere between 13 and 16, still contemplating.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:27:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:24:51 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 3/23/2010 8:23:12 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I tend to be very pro-youth rights.

Yes!

"A racist will state many reasons as to why a certain race is undeserving of equal treatment and respect. A misogynist can list a myriad of reasons as to why women are inferior to men as a gender. As with other forms of irrational group prejudice, the ageist will provide you with many excuses for treating children with less regard and respect than they themselves deserve to be treated." - James C. Talbot

That statement highly appeals to me but it's not good enough.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:27:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:24:39 PM, Koopin wrote:
Do you think children above the age of 13 should be allowed to drink and smoke?

Uhh, duh.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:29:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:26:45 PM, FREEDO wrote:

Probably somewhere between 13 and 16, still contemplating.

I see....

So basically legal lung cancer and liver disease for kids. SOUND GREAT!!!
kfc
belle
Posts: 4,113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:30:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:24:51 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 3/23/2010 8:23:12 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I tend to be very pro-youth rights.

Yes!

"A racist will state many reasons as to why a certain race is undeserving of equal treatment and respect. A misogynist can list a myriad of reasons as to why women are inferior to men as a gender. As with other forms of irrational group prejudice, the ageist will provide you with many excuses for treating children with less regard and respect than they themselves deserve to be treated." - James C. Talbot

except that theres clear evidence children don't have the mental capacity adults do :P

16/18/whatever may be arbitrary but it doesn't follow that the differences are nonexistent. we just suck at defining them clearly
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:31:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:30:40 PM, belle wrote:
At 3/23/2010 8:24:51 PM, Reasoning wrote:
At 3/23/2010 8:23:12 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I tend to be very pro-youth rights.

Yes!

"A racist will state many reasons as to why a certain race is undeserving of equal treatment and respect. A misogynist can list a myriad of reasons as to why women are inferior to men as a gender. As with other forms of irrational group prejudice, the ageist will provide you with many excuses for treating children with less regard and respect than they themselves deserve to be treated." - James C. Talbot

except that theres clear evidence children don't have the mental capacity adults do :P

16/18/whatever may be arbitrary but it doesn't follow that the differences are nonexistent. we just suck at defining them clearly

Your entirely right.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:32:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
This is just an idea that I've had in my head for a while.

We could keep the set age of majority but offer some sort of test that wouod grant anyone that passed it before reaching the mAjority would be granted the 'Right of Consent.' I couldn't tell you exactly what that test would be comprised of but I imagine that it would involve justifying positions on many different issues. This 'Right of Consent' would grant minors all the rights that they would have recieved upon reqching the age of majority and upon passing the test would legally be considered adults.
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:32:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:11:09 PM, Koopin wrote:
As a home-schooler, I beleive the Government should not have forced public schooling. Like Germany...

Isn't you being home-schooled proof that the government doesn't have forced public schooling?
President of DDO
Koopin
Posts: 12,090
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
3/23/2010 8:33:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/23/2010 8:30:40 PM, belle wrote:

except that theres clear evidence children don't have the mental capacity adults do :P

16/18/whatever may be arbitrary but it doesn't follow that the differences are nonexistent. we just suck at defining them clearly

Yes, and young children are more easy to manipulate. The Alcohol companies would play none stop commercials.
kfc