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Republicans and Democrats

comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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3/24/2010 4:55:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
So I have been interested in the origins of the party's and to my surprise this is what I have found...

Thomas Jefferson= Jefferson's Democratic republican= Andrew Jackson= Jackson's Democratic republican...
Small government, conservative, constitutionalist.

All of this stems to the modern day Democrats.
The democrats can trace their origins to Thomas Jefferson and small government.
(more conservative)
.......................................................................................................................

John Adams= Federalist= Alexander Hamilton = big government= Federalists= National Republicans= Lincoln Republican= Modern day Republican party

All of this stems to modern day Republicans.
The Republicans can trace their origins to John Adams and big government.
(more liberal)
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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3/24/2010 8:10:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/24/2010 5:15:21 PM, mongeese wrote:
There was an ideological swap somewhere along the lines. Republicans became conservative, and Democrats became liberal.

Thats irrelevant.
You should join the party and try to get it back to its roots.

Republicans have not shown themselves to be about small government as of late.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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3/24/2010 8:15:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/24/2010 8:10:40 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 3/24/2010 5:15:21 PM, mongeese wrote:
There was an ideological swap somewhere along the lines. Republicans became conservative, and Democrats became liberal.

Thats irrelevant.
You should join the party and try to get it back to its roots.

Why change one party when I can be part of the party I agree with more? I don't think I have enough influence to change the entire Democratic Party, sorry.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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3/24/2010 8:20:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/24/2010 8:10:40 PM, comoncents wrote:
Republicans have not shown themselves to be about small government as of late.

...and the Democrats have? The GOP, or at least the Tea Party movement and Rand Paul for Senate, is much more small government than the Democrats will ever be.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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3/24/2010 8:44:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/24/2010 8:10:40 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 3/24/2010 5:15:21 PM, mongeese wrote:
There was an ideological swap somewhere along the lines. Republicans became conservative, and Democrats became liberal.

Thats irrelevant.
You should join the party and try to get it back to its roots.

Republicans have not shown themselves to be about small government as of late.

I disagree, you should join a party based on what it stands for today, not what it stood for 150+ years ago.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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3/24/2010 10:33:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
There were a couple of key moments that caused the shifts. Free history lesson:

During and following the Reconstruction era social issues were at the forefront. Republicans were liberal on social issues while Democrats were on the conservative side. Since social issues were foremost in the minds of voters, economic liberals and conservative existed in both parties.

After the Great Depression economic issues became the priority. Herbert Hoover led the Republicans toward economic conservatism, alienating economic liberals. As a result, liberals flocked to the opposing party, the Democrats. Social issues were less of a concern, and the Democratic leadership actively tried to avoid pushing social issues because they had social liberals and conservatives alike.

This New Deal Coalition lasted until economic issues became less of a concern and the Democrats adopted the Civil Rights agenda. This alienated social conservatives, who shifted over to the Republican party.

This is the party alignment we have had for the past few decades. Some analysts believe there is another shift going on right now following the "Great Recession."
HandsOff
Posts: 504
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3/24/2010 10:36:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/24/2010 8:10:40 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 3/24/2010 5:15:21 PM, mongeese wrote:
There was an ideological swap somewhere along the lines. Republicans became conservative, and Democrats became liberal.

Thats irrelevant.
You should join the party and try to get it back to its roots.

Republicans have not shown themselves to be about small government as of late.

both parties blow. you know which party you need to vote with if you want to be like our founding fathers.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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3/25/2010 7:55:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/24/2010 10:36:19 PM, HandsOff wrote:
both parties blow. you know which party you need to vote with if you want to be like our founding fathers.

None of them? Because no modern party accurately represents what these semi-mythical men believed?
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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3/25/2010 8:03:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/24/2010 10:33:40 PM, JBlake wrote:
This New Deal Coalition lasted until economic issues became less of a concern and the Democrats adopted the Civil Rights agenda. This alienated social conservatives, who shifted over to the Republican party.
Yo can't look at Kennedy and judge the entire Democratic Party at that time. See: http://en.wikipedia.org...
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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3/25/2010 8:09:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/25/2010 8:03:53 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Yo can't look at Kennedy and judge the entire Democratic Party at that time. See: http://en.wikipedia.org...

Wallace was a southern Democrat though, and they're a pretty different breed, even today. Also note Wallace broke off and ran against Nixon and Humphrey in '68, especially after in '64, the south voted Republican against Johnson and his Civil Rights, and then Nixon came and supported the Civil Rights after, which is why Wallace broke off and formed the "American Independent Party."
JBlake
Posts: 4,634
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3/25/2010 10:23:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/25/2010 8:03:53 PM, wjmelements wrote:
At 3/24/2010 10:33:40 PM, JBlake wrote:
This New Deal Coalition lasted until economic issues became less of a concern and the Democrats adopted the Civil Rights agenda. This alienated social conservatives, who shifted over to the Republican party.
Yo can't look at Kennedy and judge the entire Democratic Party at that time. See: http://en.wikipedia.org...

I wasn't judging based on single politicians. The Democratic party ultimately adopted the Civil Rights agenda (gradually slightly before, during, and after Kennedy). As this was occurring, it alienated more and more social conservatives within the party (read: southern democrats). They shifted over to the Republican party as social issues became the priority.

I don't know where you got the idea that I was talking about Kennedy since I did not mention him at all. I was speaking very broadly and using generalizations to explain why and when the parties shifted over time.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/25/2010 10:30:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
On one of the political compasses it showed statistics where people who identified with certain parties appeared on the chart and the average Democrat scored more small government than the average Republican.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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3/25/2010 10:38:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/25/2010 10:30:11 PM, FREEDO wrote:
On one of the political compasses it showed statistics where people who identified with certain parties appeared on the chart and the average Democrat scored more small government than the average Republican.

It depends on the context and what this test focuses on.

I have no doubts that a lot of Democratic supporters would prefer a "smaller government," that is to say a smaller role for the government, in social and foreign policy issues, and some want to start taking some steps to reduce the role of government in the markets. But most Democrats are also going to say "government should provide welfare, healthcare, etc." - aka. providing services they think the government is supposed to do, which wouldn't necessarily make them think it was a "big government" move, even though it is.

Now, if this test focuses on mainly social issues and the like, and extrapolates its results from that, then yes, Democrats will probably seem more on the side of "smaller government." The average Republican will seem more interventionist, because they are in social issues, even though most are probably against healthcare, welfare, etc. But, the test won't focus on that, so the results aren't reliable in the context you want it in.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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3/26/2010 11:12:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/25/2010 7:55:19 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 3/24/2010 10:36:19 PM, HandsOff wrote:
both parties blow. you know which party you need to vote with if you want to be like our founding fathers.

None of them? Because no modern party accurately represents what these men believed?

Yeah. It really would have to be a mix the two.

Or, maybe, conservative progressives with the constitution as their starting point.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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3/26/2010 11:58:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/26/2010 11:12:12 AM, comoncents wrote:
Or, maybe, conservative progressives with the constitution as their starting point.

How 'bout some Progressive Conservatives? http://en.wikipedia.org...
belle
Posts: 4,113
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3/26/2010 12:03:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/26/2010 11:58:35 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 3/26/2010 11:12:12 AM, comoncents wrote:
Or, maybe, conservative progressives with the constitution as their starting point.

How 'bout some Progressive Conservatives? http://en.wikipedia.org...

lol. because centrist is such a dirty word.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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3/26/2010 3:23:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/26/2010 11:58:35 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 3/26/2010 11:12:12 AM, comoncents wrote:
Or, maybe, conservative progressives with the constitution as their starting point.

How 'bout some Progressive Conservatives? http://en.wikipedia.org...

But you do not like that party, right?
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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3/26/2010 3:29:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/26/2010 3:23:45 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 3/26/2010 11:58:35 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 3/26/2010 11:12:12 AM, comoncents wrote:
Or, maybe, conservative progressives with the constitution as their starting point.

How 'bout some Progressive Conservatives? http://en.wikipedia.org...

But you do not like that party, right?

This would describe some of the founders

The other half of the founders would have been conservative liberals.
Or something like that.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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3/26/2010 3:51:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/26/2010 3:29:09 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 3/26/2010 3:23:45 PM, comoncents wrote:
At 3/26/2010 11:58:35 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 3/26/2010 11:12:12 AM, comoncents wrote:
Or, maybe, conservative progressives with the constitution as their starting point.

How 'bout some Progressive Conservatives? http://en.wikipedia.org...

But you do not like that party, right?

I don't like their successors. And their provincial (state to you) counterparts.

This would describe some of the founders

The other half of the founders would have been conservative liberals.
Or something like that.

They'd be classical liberals - liberal conservatives, if you must.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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3/26/2010 4:04:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/26/2010 3:51:17 PM, Volkov wrote:

They'd be classical liberals - liberal conservatives, if you must.

Some of them would be.
Adams, Washington, Hamilton, John Marshall...

but others would be more strict.
Jefferson, Monroe, Jackson, Franklin...
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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3/26/2010 4:05:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/26/2010 4:04:07 PM, comoncents wrote:
Some of them would be.
Adams, Washington, Hamilton, John Marshall...

but others would be more strict.
Jefferson, Monroe, Jackson, Franklin...

The closest I can pin them to, and this isn't a great comparison, is the British Whigs. They're classical liberals.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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3/26/2010 4:06:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/26/2010 4:04:07 PM, comoncents wrote:
Some of them would be.
Adams, Washington, Hamilton, John Marshall...

but others would be more strict.
Jefferson, Monroe, Jackson, Franklin...

Uhh... no. You have those mixed up.
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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3/26/2010 4:11:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/26/2010 4:05:57 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 3/26/2010 4:04:07 PM, comoncents wrote:

I think these are more liberal.
Bigger government, etc.
I would not say classical liberals for these guys
Some of them would be.
Adams, Washington, Hamilton, John Marshall...


I think these are more conservative.
Smaller government, etc.
I would say classical liberal for these guys.
but others would be more strict.
Jefferson, Monroe, Jackson, Franklin...

The closest I can pin them to, and this isn't a great comparison, is the British Whigs. They're classical liberals.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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3/26/2010 4:13:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/26/2010 4:11:03 PM, comoncents wrote:
The closest I can pin them to, and this isn't a great comparison, is the British Whigs. They're classical liberals.

I call them Whigs as well because they, like the British Whigs, were opposed to a strong central authority figure - be it the monarch or the presidency. Maybe it isn't such a bad comparison after all.