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Welfare -- A necessary evil?

Registered_Trademark
Posts: 67
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3/27/2010 9:45:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Recently a family member of mine was discussing with me her frustration with the current system of welfare. She informed me that her neighbour, who is jobless and on welfare, is able to live the same lifestyle as a person who works hard to make a living such as herself. This conversation forced me to seriously reconsider my opinion on the topic of welfare... so members of ddo i ask you to present your opinions of welfare on this forum to help me make up my mind.

Kthanxbye
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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3/27/2010 9:51:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Welfare -- A necessary evil?
Welfare - An Unnecessary Evil.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Registered_Trademark
Posts: 67
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3/27/2010 9:53:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/27/2010 9:51:53 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
Welfare -- A necessary evil?
Welfare - An Unnecessary Evil.

Can you present an argument please...
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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3/27/2010 9:56:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/27/2010 9:53:31 PM, Registered_Trademark wrote:
At 3/27/2010 9:51:53 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
Welfare -- A necessary evil?
Welfare - An Unnecessary Evil.

Can you present an argument please...

If you subsidize something, you increase its prevalence.
You subsidize poverty, you get more!
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
HandsOff
Posts: 504
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3/27/2010 9:59:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/27/2010 9:45:17 PM, Registered_Trademark wrote:
Recently a family member of mine was discussing with me her frustration with the current system of welfare. She informed me that her neighbour, who is jobless and on welfare, is able to live the same lifestyle as a person who works hard to make a living such as herself. This conversation forced me to seriously reconsider my opinion on the topic of welfare... so members of ddo i ask you to present your opinions of welfare on this forum to help me make up my mind.

Kthanxbye

Welfare is a great idea for the truly disabled and helpless. Unfortunately the fed is horrible at deciding who these people are. Instead liberal government shoots for programs that cover a third of the nation or, in the case of the recent health care bill, most of the nation. Then they point to the rare individual cases of truly helpless people as the reason for their policies. The truth is, private charity is much better able to discriminate between the truly helpless and scam artists. There are so few truly helpless people in comparison to those on welfare that private charity and local governments would have little or no problem caring for them without help from the fed.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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3/27/2010 10:01:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
food stamps don't allow people to buy alcohol or hot food therefore they're bad.

its just not right i tell ya... poor people need alcohol to kill the pain. and you KNOW homeless people can't cook with no kitchens. i mean gosh....
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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3/27/2010 10:40:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
As much as I feel welfare is required and beneficial for the disabled, homeless, etc. I do feel that it can be problematic in ways too as many people abuse the system. There are people on welfare who are perfectly capable of working, but go on welfare instead to support drug and alcohol addictions. People like this, of course drain the system of funds that could be going to people who actually need them.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/27/2010 10:42:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/27/2010 9:53:39 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I'm Socialist

lol, for the next couple of days??

or can we count on a week or so?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
comoncents
Posts: 5,647
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3/28/2010 4:59:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Welfare -- A necessary evil?

I think it is at this time and place. I do not like it but how long have you been paying into it. Do you not deserve that money back if it does get abolished?
I do not like it b/c the government messed it up, but if they could find a way to make it based on charitable donations than I would like it.

But it is necessary evil b/c it has been the way of life for a while. People have become dependent on it for a while.

So it is necessary, but is it necessary for the government to be in charge of it?
I don't think so.
USAPitBull63
Posts: 668
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3/28/2010 5:53:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/27/2010 9:51:53 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
Welfare - An Unnecessary Evil.

It's another example of good intentions, bad idea/execution.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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3/28/2010 6:32:07 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I agree with the principle of welfare, as a temporary stop gap. But sadly in Britain we have people who don't want to work and in many cases are recent immigrants who live permanently on welfare, which is utterly wrong.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Volkov
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3/28/2010 7:08:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/28/2010 6:32:07 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I agree with the principle of welfare, as a temporary stop gap. But sadly in Britain we have people who don't want to work and in many cases are recent immigrants who live permanently on welfare, which is utterly wrong.

Exactly my view. Though, a recent seminar I went to showed that, at least in Canada, only 1% of welfare users are people who have abused the system (both known and estimated), though the latter one - recent immigrants who come just to live on welfare - is significantly higher they expect, but not reaching over 10%.

So, in all honesty, if only 1 out of 10 people are using the system in such a way that it can be classified as "abuse," why abolish it and ruin it for the other 9?
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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3/28/2010 8:27:50 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I really don't care how much they "need" it. Their need doesn't impose any obligation on me, nor does it entitle them to anything of mine by virtue of their bad luck. If I lose my job, I'm obviously no more justified in stealing from my neighbor than I am in asking the government to steal from strangers. If my neighbor (or strangers) are feeling charitable, they're free to donate to me out of a sense of good will or benevolence; otherwise, it's up to me to find a (legitimate) way to survive, without leeching off of everyone around me. :P
Cerebral_Narcissist
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3/28/2010 8:34:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/28/2010 7:08:55 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 3/28/2010 6:32:07 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
I agree with the principle of welfare, as a temporary stop gap. But sadly in Britain we have people who don't want to work and in many cases are recent immigrants who live permanently on welfare, which is utterly wrong.

Exactly my view. Though, a recent seminar I went to showed that, at least in Canada, only 1% of welfare users are people who have abused the system (both known and estimated), though the latter one - recent immigrants who come just to live on welfare - is significantly higher they expect, but not reaching over 10%.

So, in all honesty, if only 1 out of 10 people are using the system in such a way that it can be classified as "abuse," why abolish it and ruin it for the other 9?

I dont know what the figures are for over here, but I am guessing its a lot more than 1 in 10.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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3/28/2010 9:45:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I pretty much agree with what Volkov said, but to add one more thought...

If you lose your job or if something horrifically unexpected happens that you had no control over, you'd be pretty down on your luck. But because of welfare, there is a safety net, so that while you do sort of have to pick up the pieces, you aren't screwed 4 life. Overwhelmingly, it is for the greater good to tax everyone for this safety net, because everyone can be the victim of just plain bad luck.

That said, welfare is currently abused a lot, but the way to fix welfare is to reform it, not just entirely get rid of it.

At 3/27/2010 9:53:39 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I'm Socialist

No you aren't. Stop saying that.

The sort of welfare you want is voluntary; you want people to contractually enter into minigovernments that so happen to have socialist tendencies. Your absurd notion of government is called charity, and it will be abused by natural capitalistic forces and is inefficient for the greater good.
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
Korashk
Posts: 4,597
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3/28/2010 9:45:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/28/2010 8:27:50 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
I really don't care how much they "need" it. Their need doesn't impose any obligation on me, nor does it entitle them to anything of mine by virtue of their bad luck. If I lose my job, I'm obviously no more justified in stealing from my neighbor than I am in asking the government to steal from strangers. If my neighbor (or strangers) are feeling charitable, they're free to donate to me out of a sense of good will or benevolence; otherwise, it's up to me to find a (legitimate) way to survive, without leeching off of everyone around me. :P

This is pretty much exactly how I feel about welfare. Why should I care that your life went down the drain?
When large numbers of otherwise-law abiding people break specific laws en masse, it's usually a fault that lies with the law. - Unknown
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/28/2010 9:55:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/28/2010 8:27:50 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
I really don't care how much they "need" it. Their need doesn't impose any obligation on me, nor does it entitle them to anything of mine by virtue of their bad luck. If I lose my job, I'm obviously no more justified in stealing from my neighbor than I am in asking the government to steal from strangers.

If your kids are starving and "that guy" had lots of food, and you had no other means of getting food before they die... would you steal it??

Yes. so, I'd say a Very limited Basic needs social safety net IS justified.

My stealing in that case would be justified.

So would theirs.

If my neighbor (or strangers) are feeling charitable, they're free to donate to me out of a sense of good will or benevolence; otherwise, it's up to me to find a (legitimate) way to survive, without leeching off of everyone around me. :P
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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3/28/2010 9:57:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/28/2010 5:53:07 AM, USAPitBull63 wrote:
At 3/27/2010 9:51:53 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
Welfare - An Unnecessary Evil.

It's another example of good intentions, bad idea/execution.

Evil is a description of end effect. I don't think there's such a thing as "bad intentions".
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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3/28/2010 9:58:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/28/2010 9:45:25 AM, Korashk wrote:
This is pretty much exactly how I feel about welfare. Why should I care that your life went down the drain?

You don't have to. The government does. Hence why the government allocates taxes towards welfare purposes - taxes, that for all intents and purposes, can go wherever the hell the government wants it to go.

So you need not care - the government does it for you.
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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3/28/2010 9:59:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/28/2010 8:27:50 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
I really don't care how much they "need" it. Their need doesn't impose any obligation on me, nor does it entitle them to anything of mine by virtue of their bad luck. If I lose my job, I'm obviously no more justified in stealing from my neighbor than I am in asking the government to steal from strangers. If my neighbor (or strangers) are feeling charitable, they're free to donate to me out of a sense of good will or benevolence; otherwise, it's up to me to find a (legitimate) way to survive, without leeching off of everyone around me. :P

Welcome to libertarianism!
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Volkov
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3/28/2010 10:01:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/28/2010 9:59:36 AM, Reasoning wrote:
Welcome to libertarianism!

He was actually like that before, which only confirms the fact that libertarianism isn't too different in a lot of its core principles than authoritarianism, or at least Cody's brand of it.
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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3/28/2010 10:01:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/28/2010 9:55:41 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/28/2010 8:27:50 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
I really don't care how much they "need" it. Their need doesn't impose any obligation on me, nor does it entitle them to anything of mine by virtue of their bad luck. If I lose my job, I'm obviously no more justified in stealing from my neighbor than I am in asking the government to steal from strangers.

If your kids are starving and "that guy" had lots of food, and you had no other means of getting food before they die... would you steal it??

Yes. so, I'd say a Very limited Basic needs social safety net IS justified.

There are people starving in Africa right now. Why do they have any less of a right to food than someone living in America? In order to be consistent shouldn't you advocate taxation in order to feed starving people in Africa?
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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3/28/2010 10:04:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/28/2010 9:45:25 AM, Korashk wrote:
At 3/28/2010 8:27:50 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
I really don't care how much they "need" it. Their need doesn't impose any obligation on me, nor does it entitle them to anything of mine by virtue of their bad luck. If I lose my job, I'm obviously no more justified in stealing from my neighbor than I am in asking the government to steal from strangers. If my neighbor (or strangers) are feeling charitable, they're free to donate to me out of a sense of good will or benevolence; otherwise, it's up to me to find a (legitimate) way to survive, without leeching off of everyone around me. :P

This is pretty much exactly how I feel about welfare. Why should I care that your life went down the drain?

Because he will make it your problem.

Do you seriously expect people to starve to death quietly? Why should they when they can rob your house and take your stuff?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/28/2010 10:04:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/28/2010 10:01:54 AM, Reasoning wrote:
In order to be consistent shouldn't you advocate taxation in order to feed starving people in Africa?

They're not part of the US

and, yes I would like if they had some Gigantic natural disaster then I'd say some Stabilizing Aid might be necessary.

But in the long run, no. What they need is a productive economy, so... I'd say BUY stuff From Africa, and tinker with their politics to help em :)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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3/28/2010 10:04:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/28/2010 10:01:54 AM, Reasoning wrote:
At 3/28/2010 9:55:41 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/28/2010 8:27:50 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
I really don't care how much they "need" it. Their need doesn't impose any obligation on me, nor does it entitle them to anything of mine by virtue of their bad luck. If I lose my job, I'm obviously no more justified in stealing from my neighbor than I am in asking the government to steal from strangers.

If your kids are starving and "that guy" had lots of food, and you had no other means of getting food before they die... would you steal it??

Yes. so, I'd say a Very limited Basic needs social safety net IS justified.

There are people starving in Africa right now. Why do they have any less of a right to food than someone living in America?

People in Africa...scratch that...EVERYONE has the right to a basic, limited amount of food.

In order to be consistent shouldn't you advocate taxation in order to feed starving people in Africa?

I would be in favor of some of our tax money going to aid Africa. In fact, some of our tax money already does!
Television Rot: http://tvrot.com...
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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3/28/2010 10:05:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/28/2010 10:04:35 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/28/2010 10:01:54 AM, Reasoning wrote:
In order to be consistent shouldn't you advocate taxation in order to feed starving people in Africa?

They're not part of the US

So because they live in Africa they have less of a right to food than someone who happens to have been born in America?
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/28/2010 10:05:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/28/2010 9:57:59 AM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 3/28/2010 5:53:07 AM, USAPitBull63 wrote:
At 3/27/2010 9:51:53 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
Welfare - An Unnecessary Evil.

It's another example of good intentions, bad idea/execution.

Evil is a description of end effect. I don't think there's such a thing as "bad intentions".

........seriously?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/28/2010 10:06:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/28/2010 10:05:43 AM, Reasoning wrote:
At 3/28/2010 10:04:35 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/28/2010 10:01:54 AM, Reasoning wrote:
In order to be consistent shouldn't you advocate taxation in order to feed starving people in Africa?

They're not part of the US

So because they live in Africa they have less of a right to food than someone who happens to have been born in America?

The US has less of a right to steal for'em
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."