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American Collateral Damage in Iraq

Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/5/2010 2:45:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I don't know if anyone has seen this or heard about it yet, but the website Wikileaks recently got a hold of video from an American Apache helicopter responsible for the deaths of Iraqi civilians and two Reuters reporters in 2007. This is an absolutely real, absolutely horrifying example of the lack of proper ROE (rules of engagement) in the Iraqi theatre, at least as they were back in 2007.

If no charges come out of this, I'll start joining Reasoning and Freedo in their calls for an end to the US state. There is no excuse for that kind of bullsh*t. None.

The video isn't for the faint of heart. Seriously, do not watch this if you don't think you can handle it.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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4/5/2010 2:53:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Let's be honest here - If I was in that helicopter ,and was in the gunners seat, I would be easily convinced the were armed. I mean, the part where they're behind the building and the guy leans out to look would indicate to me something is up.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/5/2010 2:55:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 2:53:37 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Let's be honest here - If I was in that helicopter ,and was in the gunners seat, I would be easily convinced the were armed. I mean, the part where they're behind the building and the guy leans out to look would indicate to me something is up.

Sure, I can understand that - so whats the point of shooting the van picking up bodies? Wheres the acknowledgment after about the wrong committed? Several times there people were shown to have lied - "it looked like a gun" is no bloody excuse after the truth comes out.
I-am-a-panda
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4/5/2010 2:58:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 2:55:49 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/5/2010 2:53:37 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Let's be honest here - If I was in that helicopter ,and was in the gunners seat, I would be easily convinced the were armed. I mean, the part where they're behind the building and the guy leans out to look would indicate to me something is up.

Sure, I can understand that - so whats the point of shooting the van picking up bodies? Wheres the acknowledgment after about the wrong committed? Several times there people were shown to have lied - "it looked like a gun" is no bloody excuse after the truth comes out.

I didn't see that part, and assumed after the group was shot dead, that was it. Anyhow, shooting a van trying to pick up dead bodies is bad, but had they been terrorists, obviously they could not let that happen. Simply put, I don't think the intention there was to kill civilians but rather a combination of misjudgement, trigger happy fingers, and nerves.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/5/2010 3:01:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 2:58:51 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
I didn't see that part, and assumed after the group was shot dead, that was it. Anyhow, shooting a van trying to pick up dead bodies is bad, but had they been terrorists, obviously they could not let that happen. Simply put, I don't think the intention there was to kill civilians but rather a combination of misjudgement, trigger happy fingers, and nerves.

Oh, I have no doubt they didn't want to kill civilians. I'm sure it was misjudgment - that doesn't excuse anything, though. In civilian courts, it's called manslaughter; but apparently for the military, it's nothing. Two reporters died, and countless other civilians. Two children were wounded - children you could see from the camera. And then a tank ran over some guy's body, despite the fact that a chaplain, no less, said they took care not to do that.

It's a disgrace, and there should be people held responsible.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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4/5/2010 3:05:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 3:01:58 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/5/2010 2:58:51 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
I didn't see that part, and assumed after the group was shot dead, that was it. Anyhow, shooting a van trying to pick up dead bodies is bad, but had they been terrorists, obviously they could not let that happen. Simply put, I don't think the intention there was to kill civilians but rather a combination of misjudgement, trigger happy fingers, and nerves.

Oh, I have no doubt they didn't want to kill civilians. I'm sure it was misjudgment - that doesn't excuse anything, though. In civilian courts, it's called manslaughter; but apparently for the military, it's nothing. Two reporters died, and countless other civilians. Two children were wounded - children you could see from the camera. And then a tank ran over some guy's body, despite the fact that a chaplain, no less, said they took care not to do that.

It's a disgrace, and there should be people held responsible.

I agree some sort of punishment should be in place, the same as manslaughter - To make soldiers think twice about shooting so quickly.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/5/2010 3:08:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 3:05:20 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
I agree some sort of punishment should be in place, the same as manslaughter - To make soldiers think twice about shooting so quickly.

What concerns me more is the fact that the gunner was literally hoping for one of the journalists, who was wounded and trying to crawl away, to pick up a "weapon." Then the van came, and away went the gun again. It's a cult of death being created. I'm starting to see why so many people out against violent video games...
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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4/5/2010 3:11:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 3:08:25 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/5/2010 3:05:20 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
I agree some sort of punishment should be in place, the same as manslaughter - To make soldiers think twice about shooting so quickly.

What concerns me more is the fact that the gunner was literally hoping for one of the journalists, who was wounded and trying to crawl away, to pick up a "weapon." Then the van came, and away went the gun again. It's a cult of death being created. I'm starting to see why so many people out against violent video games...

Hey, CoD stops the second you shoot a civilian and makes you restart :P.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/5/2010 3:13:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 3:11:57 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Hey, CoD stops the second you shoot a civilian and makes you restart :P.

That's true, but where's that in the real world?
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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4/5/2010 3:16:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 3:13:01 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/5/2010 3:11:57 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
Hey, CoD stops the second you shoot a civilian and makes you restart :P.

That's true, but where's that in the real world?

The police? Your morality? Banker?
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Volkov
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4/5/2010 3:16:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 3:16:03 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
The police? Your morality? Banker?

Didn't stop the fellas in the Apache, did it.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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4/5/2010 3:21:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 3:16:54 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/5/2010 3:16:03 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
The police? Your morality? Banker?

Didn't stop the fellas in the Apache, did it.

What you didn't see was Banker in a batman costume with dual revolvers charging them shouting "u stpid libs hrting musems..!". That was the last that was ever seen of them.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/5/2010 3:28:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 3:20:42 PM, Nags wrote:
All's fair in love and war.

...or so it goes.

This wasn't 2003, it's 2007. The US was occupying the country, not exactly a situation where you want to be all "WOO TOTAL WAR" as long as you're dumb enough to do it.

The closest thing I saw in the video was a pistol finger pointed at the helicopter-- and I'm sure the troops do worse than that to each other :P. I didn't see the RPG's or AK-47s they were talking about, and even if they were, so what? They could as likely be there to defend themselves from the US's enemy as be there to challenge the US (or the RPG would be pointed at the helicopter and fired).
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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4/5/2010 3:28:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
closest thing *to a threat*
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Scottt_Mann
Posts: 44
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4/5/2010 3:55:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
This is pure BS Volkov. It's war. If you look like a threat you're dead.

That's how you're trained, and its to protect the lives of your fellow soldiers.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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4/5/2010 4:04:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 3:55:45 PM, Scottt_Mann wrote:
This is pure BS Volkov. It's war. If you look like a threat you're dead.

Did you watch the whole video bob? Did the kids (or anyone) in the van look like a threat to you?

Also don't you think soldiers should take the time to look closer and see whether a 'gun' is actually a camera before massacring an entire group of people?
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/5/2010 4:07:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 3:55:45 PM, Scottt_Mann wrote:
This is pure BS Volkov. It's war. If you look like a threat you're dead.

That's how you're trained, and its to protect the lives of your fellow soldiers.

What would you know about it, Askbob? Does it give people an excuse to shoot a van coming around to pick up the dead? Excuse the deaths of two journalists? Excuse people lying under oath about the event? Excuse the deaths of over a dozen civilians?

I don't give a sh*t if its the training or not. They should be held accountable for their actions.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/5/2010 4:10:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 4:08:02 PM, Nags wrote:
Why'd you guys call Scott "bob" and "Askbob"?

Because it is Askbob. Note the actual name is "Scottt_Man"
Scottt_Mann
Posts: 44
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4/5/2010 5:17:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 4:04:37 PM, feverish wrote:
Also don't you think soldiers should take the time to look closer and see whether a 'gun' is actually a camera before massacring an entire group of people?

Apparently you're completely lacking in the knowledge of war. What do you think that bullets and missiles travel at the speed of hours per feet?

You don't have time to look. If its a gun and its pointed at you odds are that you are going to die within a second if you don't kill the other person first. When it's your life versus someone elses you don't have time to make sure, you shoot. That's how war is. It's not checkers or chess to carefully plot out each shot. You think someone is pointing something at you, kill them before they shoot. It's a rather simplistic concept. When the soldiers become robots then the people behind the computers can worry about whether they are a threat or not and take time to look more closely.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/5/2010 5:22:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 5:17:23 PM, Scottt_Mann wrote:
Apparently you're completely lacking in the knowledge of war.

Yeah, I'll listen to you on this. Because, you know, you're oh-so-wise.

Meanwhile, two reporters lie dead and no one is taking responsibility. Two children get shot and no one takes responsibility. Over a dozen civilians are dead, with gunners shooting them down on very crappy ROE and just hoping that a wounded reporter, crawling and what looked like heaving on the sidewalk, would pick up a weapon, and give them an excuse to shoot.

Just shut the f*ck up, Askbob. I'm tired of your bullsh*t.
Scottt_Mann
Posts: 44
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4/5/2010 5:25:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 4:07:11 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 4/5/2010 3:55:45 PM, Scottt_Mann wrote:
This is pure BS Volkov. It's war. If you look like a threat you're dead.

That's how you're trained, and its to protect the lives of your fellow soldiers.

What would you know about it, Askbob? Does it give people an excuse to shoot a van coming around to pick up the dead? Excuse the deaths of two journalists? Excuse people lying under oath about the event? Excuse the deaths of over a dozen civilians?

I don't give a sh*t if its the training or not. They should be held accountable for their actions.

Yes it gives soldiers a right to do anything they deem necessary using their judgment. They absolutely do not need to be held accountable for their actions. I don't know where you got this bizarre concept that people risking their lives to benefit a country are supposed to spend hours inspecting to see if its a gun from far distances before they shoot.

You seriously are being ridiculous. I would understand if we're talking colonial times here, i'd be all for what you're saying. But this isn't colonial times. The enemy isn't wearing bright red suits, they're wearing the clothes of a civilian, walking around with civilians and being sheltered by civilians. What do you expect? It'd be like the minute men vs the redcoats with townsman milling about in red coats of the exact same color pointing things at the minutemen. Then blaming a minuteman for mistaking the townsman for a redcoat. WHAT DO THEY HONESTLY EXPECT. At least US soldiers have a uniform.

Have some common sense.
Scottt_Mann
Posts: 44
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4/5/2010 5:28:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 5:22:13 PM, Volkov wrote:
Meanwhile, two reporters lie dead and no one is taking responsibility. Two children get shot and no one takes responsibility. Over a dozen civilians are dead, with gunners shooting them down on very crappy ROE and just hoping that a wounded reporter, crawling and what looked like heaving on the sidewalk, would pick up a weapon, and give them an excuse to shoot.

Just shut the f*ck up, Askbob. I'm tired of your bullsh*t.

How about you shut the heck up Volkov, until you actually serve in the military or take the time to at least see the other point of view or risk your life for anything your opinion is complete garbage. You've done nothing to refute what I've said besides moan around because someone's daring to challenge you.
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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4/5/2010 5:30:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 2:45:32 PM, Volkov wrote:
If no charges come out of this, I'll start joining Reasoning and Freedo in their calls for an end to the US state. There is no excuse for that kind of bullsh*t. None.

I don't believe you for a second.

You may perfectly believe there is no excuse for the kind of BS, but you think other forms of BS are perfectly fine. Case in point, your response to the Waco Siege (see: http://www.debate.org...). Your response to that was "everything's just dandy" in comparison to this one.
And what's the difference, really?

Both cases, the state's thugs suspected a group of people of being a threat to themselves and "society". Both cases, the individuals in question were harmless. Both cases, large military equipment was used against them. The only significant difference is that Waco was on "American soil" during peacetime and this video was filmed in foreign airspace during wartime.

The fact that you respond strongly to this, the killing of reporters and a couple of reporters and Iraqi civilians by machinegun caliber bullets, but were fine with Waco, the killing of children through burning gas which must have tortured them to death, tells me that you're full of crap.

And that you're not really against the US.
Or that your statement was an exaggeration.

Press charges, I can see you supporting.
Eliminating the US just because of this, I cannot imagine you doing so.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/5/2010 5:32:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 5:28:06 PM, Scottt_Mann wrote:
How about you shut the heck up Volkov, until you actually serve in the military or take the time to at least see the other point of view or risk your life for anything your opinion is complete garbage.

And you've done all this, Askbob? Please, tell me of your credentials. I'm eager to hear.

You've done nothing to refute what I've said besides moan around because someone's daring to challenge you.

Because what you say is bullsh*t. You give excuses to people that weren't in a situation you're describing. You're acting like they're the victims, while the gunner literally sat there, pointing his weapon at a wounded man heaving on the sidewalk, and hoped he would pick up a gun so he could shoot him. Does that sound like someone in the middle of a crisis situation? Do men coming around in a van with children sitting clearly in the window in order to help the wounded and pick up the dead deserve the label of "threat"?

Your points address nothing pertaining to this situation. Trigger-happy helicopter gunners just waiting for the chance to shoot people - that's not watching out for your fellow soldier, that's wanting to murder in cold blood. Get it right.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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4/5/2010 5:33:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/5/2010 5:30:06 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
I don't believe you for a second.

That's 'cause I was exaggerating for purposes of showing just how angry I was. Good job catching that, though.