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What is racism and how to approach it?

TryingToBeOpenMinded
Posts: 201
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10/3/2014 11:22:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
People talk about racism all the time but I'm not sure if people really knows what it means. What is the definition of racism?

And, is there a legitimate way to approach race?
apb4y
Posts: 480
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10/4/2014 12:04:56 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/3/2014 11:22:25 PM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
People talk about racism all the time but I'm not sure if people really knows what it means. What is the definition of racism?

And, is there a legitimate way to approach race?

"Racism" is when a black man doesn't get what he wants.
TryingToBeOpenMinded
Posts: 201
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10/4/2014 2:01:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2014 12:04:56 AM, apb4y wrote:
At 10/3/2014 11:22:25 PM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
People talk about racism all the time but I'm not sure if people really knows what it means. What is the definition of racism?

And, is there a legitimate way to approach race?

"Racism" is when a black man doesn't get what he wants.

People like you make me incredibly sad. I hope that one day, I can convince you to open your eyes.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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10/4/2014 3:36:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2014 2:01:59 AM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
At 10/4/2014 12:04:56 AM, apb4y wrote:
At 10/3/2014 11:22:25 PM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
People talk about racism all the time but I'm not sure if people really knows what it means. What is the definition of racism?

And, is there a legitimate way to approach race?

"Racism" is when a black man doesn't get what he wants.

People like you make me incredibly sad. I hope that one day, I can convince you to open your eyes.

Well, you can start by actually taking a stand on this topic.
Look at the OP:
You say people don't really know what it is, then you ask others to define it.
Further, you ask us what can be done about a topic that we can't identify.
My work here is, finally, done.
Fly
Posts: 2,044
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10/4/2014 11:22:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/3/2014 11:22:25 PM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
People talk about racism all the time but I'm not sure if people really knows what it means. What is the definition of racism?

And, is there a legitimate way to approach race?

Racism is an underlying belief that certain people groups are inherently superior in important ways based upon certain external physical characteristics.

I believe that we are pretty much all racist to some extent. To address it, one needs to put effort into their education on the subject and somehow turn that knowledge into empathy.

I am starting to notice the prevalence of the phrase "I'm not racist, but..."

That phrase prepares you for the fact that the person is about to say something racist. It also lets you know that they are ignorant of their own racist beliefs.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
apb4y
Posts: 480
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10/4/2014 5:38:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2014 11:22:25 AM, Fly wrote:

I am starting to notice the prevalence of the phrase "I'm not racist, but..."

That phrase prepares you for the fact that the person is about to say something racist. It also lets you know that they are ignorant of their own racist beliefs.

I'm not racist, but I think Hitler had the right idea.
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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10/6/2014 6:20:23 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2014 3:36:33 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 10/4/2014 2:01:59 AM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
At 10/4/2014 12:04:56 AM, apb4y wrote:
At 10/3/2014 11:22:25 PM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
People talk about racism all the time but I'm not sure if people really knows what it means. What is the definition of racism?

And, is there a legitimate way to approach race?

"Racism" is when a black man doesn't get what he wants.

People like you make me incredibly sad. I hope that one day, I can convince you to open your eyes.

Well, you can start by actually taking a stand on this topic.
Look at the OP:
You say people don't really know what it is, then you ask others to define it.
Further, you ask us what can be done about a topic that we can't identify.

Good analysis but for the sake of "custom and usage", ignoring the wordy mistake and focusing on the sense, meaning and purpose is good for health :)
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
Dazz
Posts: 1,163
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10/6/2014 6:28:11 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/3/2014 11:22:25 PM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
People talk about racism all the time but I'm not sure if people really knows what it means. What is the definition of racism?
RACISM is "sense of superiority" based upon "any kind of prejudice" (in my opinion).

And, is there a legitimate way to approach race?
Racism isn't an act, rather can be experienced through different means and ways, those acts may have some legitimate reasoning sometimes. But racism itself is never legitimate morally.
Remove the "I want", remainder is the "peace". ~Al-Ghazali~
"This time will also pass", a dose to cure both; the excitement & the grievance. ~Ayaz~
TryingToBeOpenMinded
Posts: 201
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10/6/2014 2:13:40 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
My definition of racism.

Racism is when you don't treat people equally because you completely rely on a stereotype. At the same time, stereotypes are sometimes valid and need to be factored into decision-making.

Many people stubbornly refuse to admit this but we are not all the same. Some races have brown hair, some are taller, some are smaller, and some live longer. Some groups of people simply have certain characteristics that are proved with statistics.

With that said, it's extremely important to not apply this stereotype to everyone in the subject group. Why? There are several reasons. First, we don't know if the stereotype is caused by genetics or mere happenstance. Second, it would be unfair for the members in that group who don't fit that stereotype. In this country, our democratic vote needs to be counter-balanced with protection of the minority. In other words, just because the majority believes we should hang a minority, we can't do it because protection of the minority trumps democracy.

To apply this principle is difficult because you need to acknowledge the inherent characteristics of different groups but at the same time, you still need to treat each person equally.

Here is an example.

In my part of town, there is a group of immigrant Asians in which there is an abnormally high incidence of crime. So, when you are walking at night through this part of town, do you stick to the main road in visible streetlight or do you cut through alleyways and open yourself up to muggings? Obviously, you need to acknowledge the valid stereotype of these immigrant Asians and stick to the main roads but at the same time, where you have 2 suspects for a crime, you can't rely on stereotypes and point your finger at the Asian.

You need to recognize stereotypes because it's the real world but nevertheless, must treat people equally.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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10/7/2014 8:59:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
To get rid of racism we essentially need to get rid of all mention of race. Simple things like "The Black Student Union" and making people fill in their race on standardized tests only goes to further racism in society.

Constantly pointing out race (It's Hispanic Heritage Month!) only goes to constantly point out how people are inherently different, inherently in that people cannot change their race. Once people have been institutionalized to believe they're inherently different it is not a far leap to think that one is inherently better than the other which breeds racism, vicim playing and other things which damage society.

Only when we can cast race completely aside instead of trying to hammer it home at every possible turn will racism go away.
TryingToBeOpenMinded
Posts: 201
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10/7/2014 10:13:18 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 8:59:26 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
To get rid of racism we essentially need to get rid of all mention of race. Simple things like "The Black Student Union" and making people fill in their race on standardized tests only goes to further racism in society.

Constantly pointing out race (It's Hispanic Heritage Month!) only goes to constantly point out how people are inherently different, inherently in that people cannot change their race. Once people have been institutionalized to believe they're inherently different it is not a far leap to think that one is inherently better than the other which breeds racism, vicim playing and other things which damage society.

Only when we can cast race completely aside instead of trying to hammer it home at every possible turn will racism go away.

I disagree. The problem with your solution is that it ignores the fact that there differences between races. I think it's foolhardy to ignore that.
Fly
Posts: 2,044
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10/7/2014 12:19:22 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 8:59:26 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
To get rid of racism we essentially need to get rid of all mention of race. Simple things like "The Black Student Union" and making people fill in their race on standardized tests only goes to further racism in society.

Constantly pointing out race (It's Hispanic Heritage Month!) only goes to constantly point out how people are inherently different, inherently in that people cannot change their race. Once people have been institutionalized to believe they're inherently different it is not a far leap to think that one is inherently better than the other which breeds racism, vicim playing and other things which damage society.

Only when we can cast race completely aside instead of trying to hammer it home at every possible turn will racism go away.

That is a popular idea in some circles but one I and many others disagree with. Your suggestion opens up a can of worms that is larger than I feel like addressing personally at the moment.

Therefor, I simply suggest that you conduct an Internet search with a phrase such as "colorblindness will not cure racism" or "colorblindness is a form of racism." That way, you will see that your suggestion may not be the cure-all that you seem to think it is.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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10/7/2014 12:58:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 10:13:18 AM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:59:26 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
To get rid of racism we essentially need to get rid of all mention of race. Simple things like "The Black Student Union" and making people fill in their race on standardized tests only goes to further racism in society.

Constantly pointing out race (It's Hispanic Heritage Month!) only goes to constantly point out how people are inherently different, inherently in that people cannot change their race. Once people have been institutionalized to believe they're inherently different it is not a far leap to think that one is inherently better than the other which breeds racism, vicim playing and other things which damage society.

Only when we can cast race completely aside instead of trying to hammer it home at every possible turn will racism go away.

I disagree. The problem with your solution is that it ignores the fact that there differences between races. I think it's foolhardy to ignore that.

Are they differences worth noting? Skin pigmantation? Type of hair? Height? Predisposition to certain illnesses? Are these things worth having a racial society over?
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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10/7/2014 12:58:44 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 12:19:22 PM, Fly wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:59:26 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
To get rid of racism we essentially need to get rid of all mention of race. Simple things like "The Black Student Union" and making people fill in their race on standardized tests only goes to further racism in society.

Constantly pointing out race (It's Hispanic Heritage Month!) only goes to constantly point out how people are inherently different, inherently in that people cannot change their race. Once people have been institutionalized to believe they're inherently different it is not a far leap to think that one is inherently better than the other which breeds racism, vicim playing and other things which damage society.

Only when we can cast race completely aside instead of trying to hammer it home at every possible turn will racism go away.

That is a popular idea in some circles but one I and many others disagree with. Your suggestion opens up a can of worms that is larger than I feel like addressing personally at the moment.

Therefor, I simply suggest that you conduct an Internet search with a phrase such as "colorblindness will not cure racism" or "colorblindness is a form of racism." That way, you will see that your suggestion may not be the cure-all that you seem to think it is.

Thanks for your pointless reply.

If you would like to actually engage in a real debate instead of telling me to Google it feel free to jump back in.
Fly
Posts: 2,044
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10/7/2014 1:24:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 12:58:44 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 10/7/2014 12:19:22 PM, Fly wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:59:26 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
To get rid of racism we essentially need to get rid of all mention of race. Simple things like "The Black Student Union" and making people fill in their race on standardized tests only goes to further racism in society.

Constantly pointing out race (It's Hispanic Heritage Month!) only goes to constantly point out how people are inherently different, inherently in that people cannot change their race. Once people have been institutionalized to believe they're inherently different it is not a far leap to think that one is inherently better than the other which breeds racism, vicim playing and other things which damage society.

Only when we can cast race completely aside instead of trying to hammer it home at every possible turn will racism go away.

That is a popular idea in some circles but one I and many others disagree with. Your suggestion opens up a can of worms that is larger than I feel like addressing personally at the moment.

Therefor, I simply suggest that you conduct an Internet search with a phrase such as "colorblindness will not cure racism" or "colorblindness is a form of racism." That way, you will see that your suggestion may not be the cure-all that you seem to think it is.

Thanks for your pointless reply.

If you would like to actually engage in a real debate instead of telling me to Google it feel free to jump back in.

It's not pointless at all. My point is for you to see that your idea has its flaws. If you are too lazy to look into why that may be the case, then that is you being wilfully ignorant.

See, I have already considered the colorblindness proposal in the past. I used to agree with you. Having researched it, I have found it to be flawed. I don't see the need in me reliving all that research merely to accommodate your laziness. You won't be wasting your time doing the research, is what I am trying to say-- unless you refuse to entertain any ideas other than your own. If that is the case, then you are wasting everyone else's time on this subject because you only desire an echo chamber.

I was polite in my post to you, it seemed to me, at least. You have chosen to be very impolite in your response, for some reason known only to you.

Lack of politeness and civility is certainly no solution to racism. Without realizing it, you are hurting your case.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
TryingToBeOpenMinded
Posts: 201
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10/7/2014 1:35:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 12:58:15 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 10/7/2014 10:13:18 AM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:59:26 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
To get rid of racism we essentially need to get rid of all mention of race. Simple things like "The Black Student Union" and making people fill in their race on standardized tests only goes to further racism in society.

Constantly pointing out race (It's Hispanic Heritage Month!) only goes to constantly point out how people are inherently different, inherently in that people cannot change their race. Once people have been institutionalized to believe they're inherently different it is not a far leap to think that one is inherently better than the other which breeds racism, vicim playing and other things which damage society.

Only when we can cast race completely aside instead of trying to hammer it home at every possible turn will racism go away.

I disagree. The problem with your solution is that it ignores the fact that there differences between races. I think it's foolhardy to ignore that.

Are they differences worth noting? Skin pigmantation? Type of hair? Height? Predisposition to certain illnesses? Are these things worth having a racial society over?

Well, let's look at a couple of example.

1. On our war on terror, we need to look at nationality/religion (proxy for race) to see for possible sleeper units. It's only practical. You're not going to investigate Americans who've been here for numerous generations. It's impractical and a waste of resources. You look at Muslims first. On the flip side, you must be VERY careful that you don't prosecute innocent Muslims. It's a high priority to protect minorities. Despite this high priorities on minority protection, it doesn't mean you don't look at them first.

2. Racially, I think African Americans are naturally faster and stronger. So, in the NBA, there definitely is a predisposition to only look at African Americans so someone like Jeremy Lin (asian basketball player) was overlooked. Unfortunately, in the real world, there might be 20 candidates but you really only have time to vet 3 of them. This is a case in which racial discrimination failed.

I guess my point is that I agree that race is relied on too much but that doesn't mean you ignore it completely. We need to rely on it but much more discriminately.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/7/2014 1:46:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 8:59:26 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
To get rid of racism we essentially need to get rid of all mention of race. Simple things like "The Black Student Union" and making people fill in their race on standardized tests only goes to further racism in society.

Constantly pointing out race (It's Hispanic Heritage Month!) only goes to constantly point out how people are inherently different, inherently in that people cannot change their race. Once people have been institutionalized to believe they're inherently different it is not a far leap to think that one is inherently better than the other which breeds racism, vicim playing and other things which damage society.

Only when we can cast race completely aside instead of trying to hammer it home at every possible turn will racism go away.

lol, no.

http://www.psychologytoday.com...
http://www.tolerance.org...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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10/7/2014 1:52:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 12:58:15 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 10/7/2014 10:13:18 AM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:59:26 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
To get rid of racism we essentially need to get rid of all mention of race. Simple things like "The Black Student Union" and making people fill in their race on standardized tests only goes to further racism in society.

Constantly pointing out race (It's Hispanic Heritage Month!) only goes to constantly point out how people are inherently different, inherently in that people cannot change their race. Once people have been institutionalized to believe they're inherently different it is not a far leap to think that one is inherently better than the other which breeds racism, vicim playing and other things which damage society.

Only when we can cast race completely aside instead of trying to hammer it home at every possible turn will racism go away.

I disagree. The problem with your solution is that it ignores the fact that there differences between races. I think it's foolhardy to ignore that.

Are they differences worth noting? Skin pigmantation? Type of hair? Height? Predisposition to certain illnesses? Are these things worth having a racial society over?

Of course they are differences worth noting. The difference is *I* (and people who look like me) have a socially, polictically, and economically ingrained system of instutionalized racism set against me and YOU don't.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
TryingToBeOpenMinded
Posts: 201
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10/7/2014 2:33:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 1:52:50 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/7/2014 12:58:15 PM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
At 10/7/2014 10:13:18 AM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:59:26 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
To get rid of racism we essentially need to get rid of all mention of race. Simple things like "The Black Student Union" and making people fill in their race on standardized tests only goes to further racism in society.

Constantly pointing out race (It's Hispanic Heritage Month!) only goes to constantly point out how people are inherently different, inherently in that people cannot change their race. Once people have been institutionalized to believe they're inherently different it is not a far leap to think that one is inherently better than the other which breeds racism, vicim playing and other things which damage society.

Only when we can cast race completely aside instead of trying to hammer it home at every possible turn will racism go away.

I disagree. The problem with your solution is that it ignores the fact that there differences between races. I think it's foolhardy to ignore that.

Are they differences worth noting? Skin pigmantation? Type of hair? Height? Predisposition to certain illnesses? Are these things worth having a racial society over?

Of course they are differences worth noting. The difference is *I* (and people who look like me) have a socially, polictically, and economically ingrained system of instutionalized racism set against me and YOU don't.

I agree with you and it's completely unfair. We need to be aware of differences but still try to treat everyone equally.
Sharon426
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10/7/2014 3:11:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
apparently it's when you don't like the behaviors or policies of the government or of anyone that is not white.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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10/7/2014 3:45:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
How can people say it's wrong to point out differences between people of different skin colors but at the same time call color blindness racist?

I can tell you, you're crazy if you're colorblind. If I drive through a black neighborhood I lock my doors and hope I have enough gas so I don't have to stop in their neighborhood for it.

I'm really not going to increase my odds of being a victim of a violent crime by buying into this colorblind nonsense.
HououinKyouma
Posts: 1,030
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10/7/2014 8:52:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/3/2014 11:22:25 PM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
People talk about racism all the time but I'm not sure if people really knows what it means. What is the definition of racism?

And, is there a legitimate way to approach race?

Racism is the belief that human beings should be divided according to their pigmentation and that some people with a certain pigmentation are superior to people with a different skin color. It is is based on really, really, bad eighteenth century pseudo-science, and unfortunately there are still quite a lot of people who adhere to this sort of nonsense.

There is no "legitimate way to approach race," we should just try to discard the concept of "race," and begin to talk about culture and ethnicity without bigotry.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
TryingToBeOpenMinded
Posts: 201
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10/7/2014 9:01:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 8:52:33 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 10/3/2014 11:22:25 PM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
People talk about racism all the time but I'm not sure if people really knows what it means. What is the definition of racism?

And, is there a legitimate way to approach race?

Racism is the belief that human beings should be divided according to their pigmentation and that some people with a certain pigmentation are superior to people with a different skin color. It is is based on really, really, bad eighteenth century pseudo-science, and unfortunately there are still quite a lot of people who adhere to this sort of nonsense.

There is no "legitimate way to approach race," we should just try to discard the concept of "race," and begin to talk about culture and ethnicity without bigotry.

This is sheer ignorance and denial. Are you going to deny that Scandinavians are generally taller and bigger than Asians? Are you going to deny that African Americans are faster and stronger than other ethnic groups?

The problem starts because people like you say that there aren't any racial difference when it's patently obvious to most people, that's not true.

We need to acknowledge there are racial differences. But, realize that we need to nevertheless try to treat people equally as much as it's realistically possible. We need to better understand which racial differences are important and which are not.
ConservativePolitico
Posts: 8,210
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10/7/2014 10:19:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 3:45:58 PM, Wylted wrote:
How can people say it's wrong to point out differences between people of different skin colors but at the same time call color blindness racist?

I can tell you, you're crazy if you're colorblind. If I drive through a black neighborhood I lock my doors and hope I have enough gas so I don't have to stop in their neighborhood for it.

I'm really not going to increase my odds of being a victim of a violent crime by buying into this colorblind nonsense.

You don't have to be "colorblind" to the point of stupidity. Telling everyone to just ignore race right now obviously will not work.

I'm talking about a gradual societal change towards ignoring race and basing people as equal units and on their merits and actions alone. That's what we all CLAIM we are already doing but its clearly not working.
HououinKyouma
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10/8/2014 7:31:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 9:01:31 PM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:52:33 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 10/3/2014 11:22:25 PM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
People talk about racism all the time but I'm not sure if people really knows what it means. What is the definition of racism?

And, is there a legitimate way to approach race?

Racism is the belief that human beings should be divided according to their pigmentation and that some people with a certain pigmentation are superior to people with a different skin color. It is is based on really, really, bad eighteenth century pseudo-science, and unfortunately there are still quite a lot of people who adhere to this sort of nonsense.

There is no "legitimate way to approach race," we should just try to discard the concept of "race," and begin to talk about culture and ethnicity without bigotry.

This is sheer ignorance and denial. Are you going to deny that Scandinavians are generally taller and bigger than Asians? Are you going to deny that African Americans are faster and stronger than other ethnic groups?

The differences you cited have far more to do with dietary culture and other environmental factors than anything else. As for your first claim, yes I will say that Scandinavians are not really naturally, genetically, much taller than Asians, most Swedish people tend to be quite short.

And no, black people are not naturally stronger than anybody else. Actually to speak of "black people" as if they were a race, a homogeneous group is already an error, there are very many different ethnic groups in Africa, black people are not all the same.

The problem starts because people like you say that there aren't any racial difference when it's patently obvious to most people, that's not true.

The problem exists because people insist on seeing themselves as part of a "race," when in reality there are only ethnic groups, none of which are really different from other ethnic groups.

We need to acknowledge there are racial differences. But, realize that we need to nevertheless try to treat people equally as much as it's realistically possible. We need to better understand which racial differences are important and which are not.

There are cultural differences, there are dietary differences, there are minor ethnic differences; but there are no racial differences. Race is an outdated concept.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
TryingToBeOpenMinded
Posts: 201
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10/9/2014 11:03:21 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/8/2014 7:31:04 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 10/7/2014 9:01:31 PM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:52:33 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 10/3/2014 11:22:25 PM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
People talk about racism all the time but I'm not sure if people really knows what it means. What is the definition of racism?

And, is there a legitimate way to approach race?

Racism is the belief that human beings should be divided according to their pigmentation and that some people with a certain pigmentation are superior to people with a different skin color. It is is based on really, really, bad eighteenth century pseudo-science, and unfortunately there are still quite a lot of people who adhere to this sort of nonsense.

There is no "legitimate way to approach race," we should just try to discard the concept of "race," and begin to talk about culture and ethnicity without bigotry.

This is sheer ignorance and denial. Are you going to deny that Scandinavians are generally taller and bigger than Asians? Are you going to deny that African Americans are faster and stronger than other ethnic groups?

The differences you cited have far more to do with dietary culture and other environmental factors than anything else. As for your first claim, yes I will say that Scandinavians are not really naturally, genetically, much taller than Asians, most Swedish people tend to be quite short.

And no, black people are not naturally stronger than anybody else. Actually to speak of "black people" as if they were a race, a homogeneous group is already an error, there are very many different ethnic groups in Africa, black people are not all the same.

The problem starts because people like you say that there aren't any racial difference when it's patently obvious to most people, that's not true.

The problem exists because people insist on seeing themselves as part of a "race," when in reality there are only ethnic groups, none of which are really different from other ethnic groups.

We need to acknowledge there are racial differences. But, realize that we need to nevertheless try to treat people equally as much as it's realistically possible. We need to better understand which racial differences are important and which are not.

There are cultural differences, there are dietary differences, there are minor ethnic differences; but there are no racial differences. Race is an outdated concept.

You've kind of shot yourself in the foot in one statement. You said I was wrong that Scandinavians were genetically taller but actually Swedish tend to be short. Uh...you just admitted that Swedish are genetically shorter which is admitting there are genetic differences.

You are making 2 points. First, you said it's outdated to use the term race because race is the outward appearances. The proper term should be ethnicity. I think you have a valid point but it's not a hugely important one to the discussion. Race is a manifestation of ethnicity. Maybe it's not as precise to rely on race but the point of this discussion is if ethnicity/race actually lead to significant differences at all.

Your second point is that ethnicity does not lead to significant differences. I completely disagree with and this is denying scientific evidence. For example, there is scientific research that proves black athletes are faster and gives physiological reasons. Or look at scientific research that indicates 60-80% of height differences is due to genetics while 20-40% is due to environmental reasons. Just google it. You're going against science.
HououinKyouma
Posts: 1,030
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10/9/2014 4:04:53 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/9/2014 11:03:21 AM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
At 10/8/2014 7:31:04 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 10/7/2014 9:01:31 PM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:52:33 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 10/3/2014 11:22:25 PM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
People talk about racism all the time but I'm not sure if people really knows what it means. What is the definition of racism?

And, is there a legitimate way to approach race?

Racism is the belief that human beings should be divided according to their pigmentation and that some people with a certain pigmentation are superior to people with a different skin color. It is is based on really, really, bad eighteenth century pseudo-science, and unfortunately there are still quite a lot of people who adhere to this sort of nonsense.

There is no "legitimate way to approach race," we should just try to discard the concept of "race," and begin to talk about culture and ethnicity without bigotry.

This is sheer ignorance and denial. Are you going to deny that Scandinavians are generally taller and bigger than Asians? Are you going to deny that African Americans are faster and stronger than other ethnic groups?

The differences you cited have far more to do with dietary culture and other environmental factors than anything else. As for your first claim, yes I will say that Scandinavians are not really naturally, genetically, much taller than Asians, most Swedish people tend to be quite short.

And no, black people are not naturally stronger than anybody else. Actually to speak of "black people" as if they were a race, a homogeneous group is already an error, there are very many different ethnic groups in Africa, black people are not all the same.

The problem starts because people like you say that there aren't any racial difference when it's patently obvious to most people, that's not true.

The problem exists because people insist on seeing themselves as part of a "race," when in reality there are only ethnic groups, none of which are really different from other ethnic groups.

We need to acknowledge there are racial differences. But, realize that we need to nevertheless try to treat people equally as much as it's realistically possible. We need to better understand which racial differences are important and which are not.

There are cultural differences, there are dietary differences, there are minor ethnic differences; but there are no racial differences. Race is an outdated concept.

You've kind of shot yourself in the foot in one statement. You said I was wrong that Scandinavians were genetically taller but actually Swedish tend to be short. Uh...you just admitted that Swedish are genetically shorter which is admitting there are genetic differences.

No I did not, I said that the differences were mainly dietary and environmental. There is not much genetic difference between Scandinavians in general and, say, Dutch people. Now, Dutch people tend to be taller, but that is mainly due to the fact that in Holland people consume milk in the manner that people in other countries consume beer or wine or coffee.

You are making 2 points. First, you said it's outdated to use the term race because race is the outward appearances. The proper term should be ethnicity. I think you have a valid point but it's not a hugely important one to the discussion. Race is a manifestation of ethnicity. Maybe it's not as precise to rely on race but the point of this discussion is if ethnicity/race actually lead to significant differences at all.

I think it is entirely relevant because the concept of ethnicity is a real one, whereas race is not. Concepts like "white" or "black" race are false, they are based, mainly, on the idea of pigmentation, nothing else.

Your second point is that ethnicity does not lead to significant differences. I completely disagree with and this is denying scientific evidence. For example, there is scientific research that proves black athletes are faster and gives physiological reasons. Or look at scientific research that indicates 60-80% of height differences is due to genetics while 20-40% is due to environmental reasons. Just google it. You're going against science.


First of all you would have to define what is a "significant" difference. I did not deny that height is a genetic trait, I denied the idea that it is something determined by "race," in any case height is just one trait, and differences in height among ethnic groups are not significant, in my opinion. Furthermore your case only stands if we take the figure of 80% for genetic determination of height, if we assume that it is 70% or 60%, then one could argue that height is not determined by genes. More or less the same goes for the trait for speed, or any other form of physical endurance. And actually, heritability of many of these traits is pretty low, depending on which society you sample.

Anyway, my bone is with "race" not ethnicity. The studies concerning black athletes that you cited used samples of people of West African descent, in other words, a single ethnic group, so that while the study might warrant the claim that West Africans have a predisposition to be taller and faster (though not in a significant way) it does not warrant the claim that people who belong to the "black" race are taller and faster, because there is no such thing as a "black" race.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
fazz
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10/9/2014 4:41:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 1:46:28 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:59:26 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
To get rid of racism we essentially need to get rid of all mention of race. Simple things like "The Black Student Union" and making people fill in their race on standardized tests only goes to further racism in society.

Constantly pointing out race (It's Hispanic Heritage Month!) only goes to constantly point out how people are inherently different, inherently in that people cannot change their race. Once people have been institutionalized to believe they're inherently different it is not a far leap to think that one is inherently better than the other which breeds racism, vicim playing and other things which damage society.

Only when we can cast race completely aside instead of trying to hammer it home at every possible turn will racism go away.

lol, no.

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charleslb
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10/9/2014 5:32:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/3/2014 11:22:25 PM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
People talk about racism all the time but I'm not sure if people really knows what it means. What is the definition of racism?

Racism is essentially racially indexed injustice, domination, and oppression. And the ideological by-product of racially indexed injustice, domination, and oppression. That is, injustice & oppression precede racialism which consists of attitudes, beliefs, and biases that evolve to rationalize and justify it, to conceal the origin of racialist prejudice in the social inequities & evils of our society. Quite simply, under a form of society such as capitalism, which is inherently prone to asymmetrical socioeconomic power relations and all of their historical and ongoing socially evil consequences, vulnerable demographics are disproportionately on the receiving end of predatory, exploitative, and oppressive behavior or neglect and ghettoization. To legitimize this reprehensible reality ideologies, such as racialism and social Darwinism, that serve to assign blame to the underdog and victim for her/his own plight and victimized status come into existence under the aegis of the ruling class, and for the general benefit of the dominant racial demographic. Thus and so, racism is ideology and psychology stemming from the pathologies and sins of society and history, which in a vicious circle feed into and reinforce them. Well, this, in short, is my view.

And, is there a legitimate way to approach race?

How do we end racism? By working to end the socioeconomic inequities & injustices that give rise to and perpetuate it. Which we in turn do by working to do away with the capitalist power and substructure that generates racism-generating disparities and discrimination.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
jh1234lnew
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10/9/2014 8:52:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/7/2014 10:13:18 AM, TryingToBeOpenMinded wrote:
At 10/7/2014 8:59:26 AM, ConservativePolitico wrote:
To get rid of racism we essentially need to get rid of all mention of race. Simple things like "The Black Student Union" and making people fill in their race on standardized tests only goes to further racism in society.

Constantly pointing out race (It's Hispanic Heritage Month!) only goes to constantly point out how people are inherently different, inherently in that people cannot change their race. Once people have been institutionalized to believe they're inherently different it is not a far leap to think that one is inherently better than the other which breeds racism, vicim playing and other things which damage society.

Only when we can cast race completely aside instead of trying to hammer it home at every possible turn will racism go away.

I disagree. The problem with your solution is that it ignores the fact that there differences between races. I think it's foolhardy to ignore that.

While racial differences exist, racial classifications are arbitrary. Do you group the Jews with the Caucasians? Do Indians count as Asian? Should Hispanics be considered Caucasian?