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Liberals and Political Correctness

YYW
Posts: 36,233
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10/4/2014 12:51:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Liberals have no mandate to tolerate Islamic values, Islamic culture or Islamic traditions. Islam kills people who leave the faith, stones women who commit adultery, publicly hangs gay people and targets innocent civilians to achieve political objectives. I think it was Tony Blair that said something to the effect of "political correctness is justice," but accepting that requires us to plunge our heads into the ground to ignore what's happening around us. Multiculturalism has weakened Liberalism. The belief that the West should tolerate (and by tolerate, I mean not actively resist) the incursion of Middle Eastern values into our society is something that has not only changed the character of Liberalism, but it's colored the way that Liberals are viewed by those who do not identify as liberals. (When I say "the West" I want to be clear that I include Israel in that group. Israel, culturally, is far closer to the West than any other country in its region.)

Middle Eastern values are directly opposed to Western Values in irreconcilable ways. Women, because of certain interpretations of the Koran, are treated as second class citizens in the Middle East, by Muslims. In the West, there are laws which not only prevent discrimination on the basis of gender, but ensure that those who do discriminate on the basis of gender will be held civilly liable. In the West, rape is a crime. In the Middle East, it's a punishment, and any woman who is raped will likely be beaten because that is the perverted version of "justice" that Islamic theocracy mandates.

Homosexuality is almost universally a crime, in many cases punishable by death, in the Arab world. In the West, we protect gay marriage as a human right in accordance with fairness under the law. In the Middle East, it is acceptable to amputate the hand of a thief (Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the like, continue this practice today). In the West, we have legal protections to ensure that no individual will be subject to cruel and unusual punishment. In the religions of the West, people do not face execution for apostasy. Islam commands that all those who leave the faith shall be killed. Stoning is an especially common method of addressing that particular issue. In the west, when some religion is made fun of, it's just the sort of thing that happens and everyone then goes about living their lives. In the Middle East, suicide bombers attack people who draw pictures of "allah" as a cartoon.

The conversation usually begins with something to the effect of "only a small fraction of Muslims in the world believe that" which is nonsense. Almost all non-westernized Muslims (and even many Westernized Muslims) hold values and views that are directly in conflict with that which is most fundamental to Western society and Western culture. The Muslim World, more broadly, believes that it's ok to stone women who reveal more than their eyes from behind religiously mandated clothing. The Muslim World outside the west has no problem hanging gay people for being gay. This is Islam. Westernized Islam is the exception, not the rule.

The tendency among the "politically correct" lot is to compare Islam to Christianity. Muslim scholars (on Al Jazeera) love to talk about the human rights violations of Christians during the crusades, for example as if to indicate some level of equivalence in the barbarism of Christianity and Islam. Others have referred to the Spanish Inquisition, which is comprehensive bullsh!t if ever bullsh!t was uttered. Human rights CAME from the West, and unlike the Arab world, the West progressed, industrialized and created the most powerful and globally influential culture in the world. Islam has produced terrorists and failed states, as well as a barrage of immigrants who migrate to Europe and the United States because their cultures have failed, their societies have imploded and then have the temerity to demand that we are "sensitive" to their customs of subjugating women and living in accordance with Sharia law.

Recently, Alan Henning, a British aid worker who went to Syria to provide humanitarian relief, was beheaded by ISIL because the British government has launched strategic attacks against the group. I want to repeat that again, in the event that it was not clear: a British aid worker who went to Syria to provide humanitarian relief was beheaded by this group. There is no Christian equivalent, and those who wish to say that extremists on both sides make all religions the same must sacrifice objective reality to make that claim. The notion that Christianity and Islam are in any equivalent is an affront to reason. The notion that all religions have fundamentalist paramilitary groups is a falsehood. Islam's barbarism is unique to it. There is no equivalent, and it's time for Liberals to acknowledge that.

I would hope that one day, the Muslim world will not be what it is now. It would be my hope that the Middle East could join the West in cultural progression. Indeed, we would both benefit from it. But, the problem is not what the West does. What precludes the West's peaceful coexistence with the Muslim world are the choices that Muslims make: the choice to fight, the choice to terrorize and the choice to kill. The whiny spineless cowards like Michael Moore who blame the west for the Middle East's brutality against us have no standing in the public sphere to even make that claim. The Muslim World does not attack the West because of actions that we have taken -but rather because of what they believe.
YYW
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10/4/2014 1:06:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
For a close parallel, let's talk about one really mundane contrast -at least in the context of ISIL.

In the West, there are certain atheists who wish to have all religious (and especially Christian) symbols removed from public space. This is because they interpret the establishment clause to mandate the totalized absence of anything even remotely religious from anything associated from the government. That's not the literal meaning of the establishment clause, but that's another conversation for another day.

Suppose the Ten Commandments are on display in a courthouse, and a judge orders that they be removed. Christians will go on TV and talk about how atheists are destroying the fabric of America. (In many ways, when atheists do stupid things like file lawsuits to remove religious symbols from public space, they are not only wasting time and resources as well as making themselves look like pedantic trolls of the court system -they are "hurting America" albeit in a very general sense. But, that's another conversation for another time.) But, that's ALL that's going to happen.

Islamic parallel: When Allah is satirized by a private citizen, however, in a European country -the risk of terrorism in that country sharply increases.
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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10/4/2014 1:52:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Hard to take your views, bigoted as they may be, seriously, when your references are Bill Maher and Richard Dawkins.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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10/4/2014 1:54:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2014 1:06:24 PM, YYW wrote:
Suppose the Ten Commandments are on display in a courthouse, and a judge orders that they be removed. Christians will go on TV and talk about how atheists are destroying the fabric of America. (In many ways, when atheists do stupid things like file lawsuits to remove religious symbols from public space, they are not only wasting time and resources as well as making themselves look like pedantic trolls of the court system -they are "hurting America" albeit in a very general sense. But, that's another conversation for another time.) But, that's ALL that's going to happen.

Islamic parallel: When Allah is satirized by a private citizen, however, in a European country -the risk of terrorism in that country sharply increases.
That's a Middle Eastern parallel, and almost exclusively so. Nearly every part of Islam that is corrupted can trace its origins to Middle Eastern schools of thought.
Mirza
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10/4/2014 1:59:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2014 1:52:07 PM, HPWKA wrote:
Hard to take your views, bigoted as they may be, seriously, when your references are Bill Maher and Richard Dawkins.
Despite my strong hate and disrespect for what they often utter, forget not that not all they say is wrong. It is their attack on the Islamic philosophy that I despise. The reference to the cultures that happen to be associated with Islam is a correct one. When a large amount of followers of a religion, particularly its persons of authority, happen to do or believe in certain ideas, then it is expected for others to associate those ideas with the religion of those people. This nevertheless does not excuse their ignorant, foolish attack on the teachings of the religion, just as it would not be fair to shame Christianity for the fact that a perverted, genocide-supporting organization like the Vatican Church still exists today and is supported by innumerable Christians.
Skikx
Posts: 132
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10/4/2014 2:07:50 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2014 1:08:55 PM, YYW wrote:
Western culture is not only different than Islamic culture, it's objectively superior.

What standards do you use to determine what is superior and how do you justify that your standards are objective?
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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10/4/2014 2:37:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Islam kills people who leave the faith, stones women who commit adultery, publicly hangs gay people and targets innocent civilians to achieve political objectives.

This sounds nice, but do you have any hard numbers on how prevalent these acts actually are? Furthermore, how do these crimes and their frequency stack up to those committed by the West (here's a hint, they pale in comparison).

Israel, culturally, is far closer to the West than any other country in its region

You are infamous for trying to lump Israel into some sort of category with the "West" while denigrating Islam as a whole, generally in an attempt to garner sympathy for Israel's continued occupation and brutalization of the Palestinians.

I'll be brief here. Israel is not a democracy (the economist ranks it below Tunisia/Lebanon, and in line with 8 or so other middle-east countries). Its human rights record is horrendous compared to many "Islamic" nations (though many Western nations also fail this test); and it treats the Palestinians worse then nearly an country treats their minorities.

Women are treated as second class citizens in the Middle East.

In some Muslim countries this is certainly true (just as its true in some non-Muslim countries). In other Muslim countries, this is not true (and visa-versa).

Any woman who is raped will likely be beaten because that is the perverted version of "justice" that Islamic theocracy mandates.

You have any numbers on how common it is for a woman to be beaten because she is raped? Or is this another one of your bigoted generalities?

Homosexuality is almost universally a crime, in many cases punishable by death, in the Arab world. In the West, we protect gay marriage.

Many Muslim countries (though anti-homosexuality isn't exclusive to Muslims) are oppressive to homosexuals, clearly. However, I want some actual facts here. How many Muslim countries, regardless of the laws on the books, actually prosecute homosexuals? How do the populations feel about this?

In the Middle East, it is acceptable to amputate the hand of a thief (Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the like, continue this practice today).

How many countries have this law on the books, and how many actually enforce it? Regardless, this is largely an ethnocentric view-point here. Perhaps Muslims consider this punishment for thievery humane, but would consider years trapped behind bars "unnatural"? Different doesn't necessarily mean wrong.

In the religions of the West, people do not face execution for apostasy.

How often are Muslims killed for leaving the faith? Any actual numbers? As a comparison, many "Western" countries carry similar penalties for treason, which recently, has come to be defined as any number of non-violent/harmful offenses. Does that make the West savage?

Islam commands that all those who leave the faith shall be killed.

There is no such command in the Quran.

Stoning is an especially common method of addressing that particular issue.

Really, just how common? Any actual numbers?

In the Middle East, suicide bombers attack people who draw pictures of "allah" as a cartoon.

Really, and this happens often? How many times exactly?

The conversation usually begins with something to the effect of "only a small fraction of Muslims in the world believe that" which is nonsense.

While I agree (via PEW polls) that some more savage aspects of Muslims are sometimes underrepresented (though the opposite is also frequently true), this isn't the issue. Its that Muslim savagery isn't any more frequent or virulent then non-Muslim savagery, and in many cases, is actually far less savage.

The tendency among the "politically correct" lot is to compare Islam to Christianity. Scholars love to talk about the human rights violations of Christians during the past.

There's no need for that, there are plenty of human rights violations by non-Muslims that occurred recently. The world-wars were not Muslim wars. The secularist/atheist regimes in Europe/Asia/Russia after WW2, which slaughtered millions of people, weren't Muslim. The marauding bands of Hindus/Buddhists in Asia, raping and slaughtering those in their path, aren't Muslim. America's interventions in Latin America/Asia/Middle-East, which killed millions, aren't Islamic. I could go on forever.

Human rights CAME from the West, and unlike the Arab world.

Many scholars see it the exact opposite way, but this issue isn't really cogent either way.

Islam has produced terrorists and failed states, as well as a barrage of immigrants who migrate to Europe and the United States because their cultures have failed, their societies have imploded and then have the temerity to demand that we are "sensitive" to their customs of subjugating women and living in accordance with Sharia law.

Many Muslim states aren't "failed" at all, and its also cute of you to ignore, that many of the failures/terrorists in Muslim states, were created by the "civilized" West.

Any numbers on how many Muslim Western-immigrants demand that our governments be sensitive to their subjugation of women/Sharia-Law. How does that compare to other ethnic/religious groups?

Recently, Alan Henning, a British aid worker who went to Syria to provide humanitarian relief, was beheaded by ISIL.

Wow, holding up ISIL, a group that is hated by Muslims worldwide, and comprises .000001% of Muslims, as a representative for Islam? It would literally be more statistically accurate to hold white child molesters as representative of all white Americans.

There is no Christian equivalent.

Not at all. The crimes committed by Christian dwarf those committed by Muslims.

I would hope that one day, the Muslim world will not be what it is now. It would be my hope that the Middle East could join the West in cultural progression. Indeed, we would both benefit from it.

Agreed.

But, the problem is not what the West does.

Not exclusively, but to absolve the West of any blame is the same as those who blame the West for EVERYTHING. Anybody who thinks any side has less then, say, 30% of the blame (which is huge), is suspect, IMO.

YYW has treated us to a case study in bigotry. Making bold generalizing claims (some that are just simply false), not comparing his characterizations of an ethnic group to similar offenses by other groups, and then using these characterizations to smear the group in question.

And, for good measure, he slipped in some pro-Israel nonsense, because of course, one can never miss a chance to defend apartheid.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
HPWKA
Posts: 401
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10/4/2014 3:44:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I'll also leave this here. Its a comparison of what percentage of people think its justifiable to kill/target civilians. (Via a conglomerate of polls).

Mormon-Americans 64%
Christian-Americans 58%
Jewish-Americans 52%
Israeli Jews 52%
Palestinians* 51%
No religion/Atheists/Agnostics (U.S.A.) 43%
Nigerians* 43%
Lebanese* 38%
Spanish Muslims 31%
Muslim-Americans 21%
German Muslims 17%
French Muslims 16%
British Muslims 16%
Egyptians* 15%
Indonesians* 13%
Jordanians* 12%
Pakistanis* 5%
Turks* 4%

*refers to Muslims only

http://www.loonwatch.com...
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
YYW
Posts: 36,233
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10/4/2014 3:50:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
In HPWKA's world, any criticism of Islam or Islamic culture is racist and bigoted. This means that Islam is immune to criticism entirely, which is why his perspective is one that is meritorious of nothing other than wholesale dismissal. He provides no substantive response to anything I've said, he attempts to distract the focus of the discussion and he will not (whether because he is incompetent or because he refuses) to substantively engage the manifest cultural problems endemic to Islamic society.
YYW
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10/4/2014 3:59:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2014 1:52:07 PM, HPWKA wrote:
Hard to take your views, bigoted as they may be, seriously, when your references are Bill Maher and Richard Dawkins.

I want to acknowledge that here, HPWKA is 'literally' committing an ad hominem fallacy, in attempting to discredit the message by going after the speaker rather than the message. A similar variety of this fallacy exists where he attacks any criticism of Islam as "bigoted" and "racist" simply because it is a criticism.

This is tragic, and yet it is also the view of an alarmingly high percentage of Middle Eastern muslims who maintain the fiction that Islam is somehow greater than it is. What Islam has produced is a culture that systematically disenfranchises women, children, gay people and anyone who has the gaul to challenge Islam. Read: ISIL.

The reason that Islam must respond with violence is principally because it is weak, as a religion and Islamic society is weak as a culture. It knows it is threatened by Western values of religious freedom, democratic political order and human rights because it has witnessed those values spread -even to some Westernized muslims. As such, those practitioners of that fallen belief system kill innocent people because they believe that this somehow advances their faith.

The fiction that this user maintains would seek to equivocate Christianity with Islam, which is to any objective person, nothing less than a fiction. The worst within Christendom are Westboro Baptist Church who only have the temerity to shout awful things at veterans and soldiers. The worst in Islam behead innocent people on film and kill thousands of innocent civilians on foreign soil. There is no equivalency. There is no comparison. There is no parallel.

If this were the 14th century, we might be having a different discussion. But, it's not. And we know it's not.
YYW
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10/4/2014 4:00:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2014 3:44:23 PM, HPWKA wrote:
I'll also leave this here. Its a comparison of what percentage of people think its justifiable to kill/target civilians. (Via a conglomerate of polls).

http://www.loonwatch.com...

You attack notable media figures and published authors, and then have the gaul to cite "Loonwatch.com"?

The hypocrisy is staggering.
HPWKA
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10/4/2014 4:10:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
You attack notable media figures and published authors, and then have the gaul to cite "Loonwatch.com"?

The hypocrisy is staggering.

The article was posted at Loonwatch, which drew the info from reputable polls like Pew and Gallup. They didn't take the polls themselves, and I wouldn't trust them if they did.

Also, I'm waiting for you to respond to my lengthy deconstruction of your "argument". So far, your only response has been a mixture of the same nonsense your originally spouted, and some hurt feelings.
Feelings are the fleeting fancy of fools.
The search for truth in a world of lies is the only thing that matters.
YYW
Posts: 36,233
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10/4/2014 5:40:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2014 4:10:15 PM, HPWKA wrote:
You attack notable media figures and published authors, and then have the gaul to cite "Loonwatch.com"?

The hypocrisy is staggering.

The article was posted at Loonwatch, which drew the info from reputable polls like Pew and Gallup. They didn't take the polls themselves, and I wouldn't trust them if they did.

Also, I'm waiting for you to respond to my lengthy deconstruction of your "argument". So far, your only response has been a mixture of the same nonsense your originally spouted, and some hurt feelings.

#irony
YYW
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10/4/2014 6:15:29 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2014 3:44:23 PM, HPWKA wrote:
I'll also leave this here. Its a comparison of what percentage of people think its justifiable to kill/target civilians. (Via a conglomerate of polls).

Mormon-Americans 64%
Christian-Americans 58%
Jewish-Americans 52%
Israeli Jews 52%
Palestinians* 51%
No religion/Atheists/Agnostics (U.S.A.) 43%
Nigerians* 43%
Lebanese* 38%
Spanish Muslims 31%
Muslim-Americans 21%
German Muslims 17%
French Muslims 16%
British Muslims 16%
Egyptians* 15%
Indonesians* 13%
Jordanians* 12%
Pakistanis* 5%
Turks* 4%

*refers to Muslims only

http://www.loonwatch.com...

I am generally suspicious of numbers like this because when considering who 'actually' tends to kill innocent people in the West, Islam overwhelmingly produces the most. But, how could the statistic you've just presented, if it were true, be reconciled with objective reality?

It would most likely be the case that those Muslims who answered the poll embraced a totalizing view of guilt such that wherever leaders of a country make a particular decision, all members of that country are therefore accountable.

This type of overly-simplistic, barbaric thinking is one of the many noted factors that distinguish the West's Just War tradition from the brutality of Islam in the Middle East: whereas in the west we distinguish between combatants and noncombatants, the only salient distinction in the middle east is "Muslim and infidel" such that all of the latter are always already guilty. (That is not to say that all Western Muslims believe that, but Muslims in the middle east would.)

It makes sense, then, that that people in the west could likely conceive of occasions where killing innocent people would be acceptable -such as to avoid a greater loss of life, or to disable the military industrial capacity of an enemy state. But, muslims, viewing that category of "innocent" as only fellow muslims, would be more reluctant to advocate for their killing.
Emilrose
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10/4/2014 6:19:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2014 1:52:07 PM, HPWKA wrote:
Hard to take your views, bigoted as they may be, seriously, when your references are Bill Maher and Richard Dawkins.

How are exactly are they "bigoted"? Middle Eastern values and/or culture is less advanced than Western culture. One only has to study current Middle Eastern politics to establish that.

Using Iran for example, their government recently decided to numerously lash (whip) and imprison a group of individuals for dancing.

Is this democratic? No. Is it something that would take place within Western countries? No.

I suggest you inquire further into Middle Eastern affairs before labelling a perfectly valid and supported argument as "bigoted".
Commentator on a picture with David Cameron and a Cat: 'Amazing what you can achieve with photoshop these days. I'm sure that used to be a pig.'

Commentator on Hillary Clinton: 'If Clinton is now what passes for progressive, maybe this country deserves Trump.'

Commentator on British parliament: 'All that talent in one place, where is Ebola when you need it?'

John Kerry on words: 'These aren't just words, folks.'
YYW
Posts: 36,233
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10/4/2014 7:08:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2014 2:37:31 PM, HPWKA wrote:
YYW has treated us to a case study in bigotry. Making bold generalizing claims (some that are just simply false), not comparing his characterizations of an ethnic group to similar offenses by other groups, and then using these characterizations to smear the group in question.

You are a terrorist sympathizer. You embrace the radicalism and terror of Hamas, and call the murder (that is, the intentional, purposeful killing) of innocent Israeli civilians a legitimate exercise of "self defense" which shows me and this forum that you have no concept of the meaning of the term.

You are willfully ignorant. The fact that you ignore the egregious human rights violations that are endemic to Islamic society and culture and refuse to acknowledge that hanging homosexuals in the street and systematically subjugating women is something that Muslims do in the majority of middle eastern countries shows that you chose to ignore reality. You must know what goes on, yet you pretend that you do not. You pretend that there is some elaborate anti-Muslim conspiracy out there that is predicated upon tarnishing the "good name" of Islam in Western media.

Your words mean nothing. We, the West, know Islamic culture by its acts. Acts, you cannot escape from because reality is what it is.
YYW
Posts: 36,233
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10/4/2014 7:15:23 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Islam, and people like HPWKA who maintain the fiction that Islam is a peaceful religion, will continue to present a challenge to us all for the remainder of our lives. The reason is because Islam, which believes that it has a superior set of values, principles and legal order has seen that it most assuredly does not. Islam has offered the world NOTHING of value since Europe was in the Dark Ages. There was a time when Islamic scholars led the world in science and mathematics, but now? Nothing other than terrorists, human rights violations, opium and goats.
YYW
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10/4/2014 7:16:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
I hope for a time when the Middle East relieves itself of this dark age that it finds itself in now. No political event other than the democratization of the middle east would make me happier. But yet, there is no hope.
numberwang
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10/4/2014 7:36:18 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2014 6:19:18 PM, Emilrose wrote:
At 10/4/2014 1:52:07 PM, HPWKA wrote:
Hard to take your views, bigoted as they may be, seriously, when your references are Bill Maher and Richard Dawkins.

How are exactly are they "bigoted"? Middle Eastern values and/or culture is less advanced than Western culture. One only has to study current Middle Eastern politics to establish that.

Using Iran for example, their government recently decided to numerously lash (whip) and imprison a group of individuals for dancing.

Is this democratic? No. Is it something that would take place within Western countries? No.

Torture and police brutality in western countries? Never!

I suggest you inquire further into Middle Eastern affairs before labeling a perfectly valid and supported argument as "bigoted".
YYW
Posts: 36,233
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10/4/2014 7:38:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2014 7:36:18 PM, numberwang wrote:
At 10/4/2014 6:19:18 PM, Emilrose wrote:
At 10/4/2014 1:52:07 PM, HPWKA wrote:
Hard to take your views, bigoted as they may be, seriously, when your references are Bill Maher and Richard Dawkins.

How are exactly are they "bigoted"? Middle Eastern values and/or culture is less advanced than Western culture. One only has to study current Middle Eastern politics to establish that.

Using Iran for example, their government recently decided to numerously lash (whip) and imprison a group of individuals for dancing.

Is this democratic? No. Is it something that would take place within Western countries? No.

Torture and police brutality in western countries? Never!

And your point?

I suggest you inquire further into Middle Eastern affairs before labeling a perfectly valid and supported argument as "bigoted".
thett3
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10/4/2014 7:48:36 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
HAPPY EID EVERYONE

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PotBelliedGeek
Posts: 4,298
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10/4/2014 7:55:56 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Care to back up anything you said here about islam to someone who actually knows a thing or two about it?
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YYW
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10/4/2014 7:58:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2014 7:55:56 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
Care to back up anything you said here about islam to someone who actually knows a thing or two about it?

You, unless you have been living under a rock, know what has been happening in the world.
PotBelliedGeek
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10/4/2014 8:02:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 10/4/2014 7:58:21 PM, YYW wrote:
At 10/4/2014 7:55:56 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
Care to back up anything you said here about islam to someone who actually knows a thing or two about it?

You, unless you have been living under a rock, know what has been happening in the world.



As i said, care to back up anything you said about islam? You can levy accusations against religious extremists all you want, and i am in fact right with you. That does not give you the right to extrapolate that belief to 1.9 billion people, including myself.
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YYW
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10/4/2014 8:02:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Pots, you're a Westernized Muslim. Or, at least I think you are. I've got no reason to believe you're one of the lot who would run to Syria to join ISIL. But, you're not among the majority. The version of Islam you think is 'the case' is not akin to that which is practiced in the Middle East, at large. So, while you can offer me -I'm sure- highly progressive views of Islamic theocracy that do not situate Islam as diametrically opposed to Western values, to the extent that you're doing that, you're representing a version of Islam that is incongruent with the majority.